Depends on which part.

To answer the original question, NYC has tons of NIMBY.

WHAT original question was that, Will?

The New Pioneer Square - what a buncha dicks.

Fnarf - The question in the post title.

The post title makes no mention of NYC that I can discern.

i'm assuming the vendors get their papers during regular business hours, and so i would say The New Pioneer Square people are just douches.

@ 6 - Sigh.

You and WiS really should get a room one of these days... Or maybe jello-wrestle each other for next year's Strangercrombie? Then we could ALL enjoy the fun.. for Charity!!

:-D

A First Ave streetcar of 100-story mixed-income towers = Vancouver Steampunk NIMBY not Fremont FTW, to answer the original question.

@1: have you looked at commercial real estate rents these days? Especially for class B or C? I've actually been doing some looking and in both Belltown and Pioneer Sq, there are spots where you can almost name your price. Landlords are desperate to rent. This is the best commercial renter market in a very long time.

I actually think Real Change will help calm down the more troublesome elements in Pioneer Square. In my experience with vendors and people who attend their classes is that they don't want to fuck up a good thing. When I worked up the street from the Union Gospel Mission, those people were awesome neighbors and I didn't worry at all about the people waiting for the doors to open.

It was that bus stop across from Salumi that was full of people coming down or getting drunk that sucked. Although, when the drunks would yell obscenities at the people waiting in line for Salumi it was kind of worth it.

um, seriously @3 and @5, where is this reference to NYC in the title? I don't see one either.

Real change has been a good neighbor in Belltown. It is true though that some of their sellers can be obnoxious. Especially the one who want to sell their stack less than a block from their offices.

I am cringing already at the swanky new place that will take over that space.

I used to work a pizza stand in Pioneer Square, 55 hours a week including two 14 hour shifts that ran from 1:00pm until 3:00am on Friday and Saturday. I got a pretty good feel for the neighborhood on those shifts, and the biggest problem we had, bar none, was the suburban men who came into town to party in the Square; not only were a lot of them major league douchebags who were constantly getting in drunken brawls with each other, but they attracted a lot of collateral criminal activity -- drug dealers, hookers, pickpockets, and muggers who swarmed in to service them or rob them. The homeless people and the addicts were mostly just trying to get by. The worst problem they caused was all the pissing, shitting, and throwing up all over the place and that problem could be solved for the price of five or ten pay-to-use public bathrooms with attendants to keep them clean. Other than that, the homeless people in the Square were actually one of the least obnoxious populations of homeless folks I've dealt with (having also worked restaurants and retail on the Ave, in Ballard, on Broadway, in Bellingham and Olympia).

@ 12 - I believe Will was simply mentioning another city (a big, REAL city) where NIMBYism is alive and well - the point being, that one doesn't actually NEED a back yard to have a NIMBY mindset.

Aaannnnnnd now I'm done speaking for Will.

@14, the nightclubbin' women aren't a whole lot better. I'll never forget the time I was walking down there and a big 'ol stretch limo pulled up to the light, and a rear door opened, and a sweet little poufy-haired bimbo in a tiny black dress leaned out and vomited profusely all over the sidewalk in front of me. So charming. And it was only nine o'clock.

Not to oversimplify people's issues, but I'm guessing the majority of the Real Change crowd is the "ready to make changes" type, similar to the types that frequent the homeless and addict outreach center on my block—whom, for over four years, have been mostly fantastic neighbors. These are business-hours operations, catering to people ready to work toward their independence.

By contract, my local Walgreens is a mecca for the sorts these NIMBYs are concerned about.

"by CONTRAST", that should read, although, certain Walgreens to appear to have grandfathered in a "suck clause."

thanks @5. Fnarf's still high from the glue, sadly. I tried to take it away, but he said he needed it for his "health".

I prefer "by contract."

@16 - very good. Fnarf will now attempt to tell us that, since NYC is not in a wiki, it does not exist, and that CSI: NY is really true and never lies to us ever.

I once applied for a reception job at a furniture store in Pioneer Square. One of my job duties would have been to monitor the security camera and remotely lock the front door if I saw a bum try to come in. I'm kind of glad I didn't get a call back.

Real Change doesn't seem to assign people to any particular location, but it does seem like their vendors are oversaturated in some places. On my three-block walk from my office to the grocery store, I run into three vendors. Doesn't make much sense to me.

sorta like the Cher song:

"Gypsies, tramps and thieves
We'd hear it from the people of the town
They'd call us gypsies, tramps and thieves
But every night all the men would come around
And lay their money down"

except not really, because that song was about alabama; so umm... yeah new pioneer square don't be like alabama. or something, jeez.

@23 oh motherfucking burn! Good on you WIS!

"one-stop shop for the homeless" SERIOUSLY?! oh no, now people might get the services they need, and might even be able to get themselves off the streets. eat a dick, NIMBY.

"Not to be overly cynical," but working poor people spend their money, eat out a lot, and look like most people, except maybe a bit more weathered. But some people can't handle that. Here's an interesting page from New Pioneer Square blog editor Jen's personal blog.

http://whenwilltheyeverhavekids.blogspot…

#27, you been to Pioneer Square lately? Bet you haven't. It's a neighborhood, but you wouldn't know it by looking at the streetscape because there are very few people walking around. Pioneer Square's 'backyard' is home to a large collection of social service providers and the people who need them. I think your YIMBY/NIMBY paradigm is a bit over-simplistic. The question is 'how will this integrate into the community?' and 'what message does this send to the businesses and patrons the neighborhood is trying to attract?' The existing retail businesses (other than dance clubs) all close at 5 because very few people come down there to shop or buy dinner. Say what you might about the 'one-stop-shop' comment, but residents have a right to be concerned about the message this sends or the tired dialogue this reinforces.

@16: Here's my translation of Will's thought process:

"Pioneer Square is the one part of Seattle that feels, spatially, like a "real" city. New York is a big city whose name connotes "real" urbanity. Therefore, I will presume that the entirety of New York City is macroscopic version of Pioneer Square. It must be physically, economically, culturally and viscerally identical to my chosen local analogue. I need not travel nor do any research to confirm this. I KNOW it; now I shall construct a pithy comment around it."

As someone who loathes this aggressive anti-logic -- which PERVADES Seattle -- Will's comment rubbed me just as wrongly as it did Fnarf.

"since NYC is not in a wiki, it does not exist" is barely English, and ontologically resides in a realm so far removed from sense that I can't even parse it. I've lived in New York City, though, if that's any help. I still don't see the Pioneer Square connection. Or the homelessness connection. Or the backyard connection. Or anything at all. D.p., you're giving him way too much credit for both "thought" and "process".

I have never seen an entire episode of any of the CSI programs, by the way. So, if that was supposed to be an insult, uh....

People accuse me of attacking Will, but he attacks himself every time he posts.

I work in Pioneer Square and hang out there at night. 14 is pretty much right on. The frat type partiers are shit to the neighborhood and most of the real crime in the neighborhood is fed off of that.

29 I don;t get. People walk around there all morning afternoon and night. Just different sets.

I think this is pretty hilarious the way it's going to piss alot of the "New Pioneer Square" types who are dismayed at the loss of Elliot Bay Books. Really the neighborhood won;t change that much. It's the same dynamic between office set, tourists, no-incomes, sports fans, late night scene, and yes the people who pay to live there. No matter what retail closes or new bum brigade shows up, it's gonna have the same dynamic. I bet if they ever developed the stadium parking lot like they always plan on that would have an interesting impact. Otherwise it's the same shit.

Wow 35, I don't want to live in the Seattle you envision for us. Pioneer Square has a lot more to offer than the "same shit", as you put it. I hope we all live to see you proven wrong.