Comments

1
Please try to be a bit more in depth on legal stuff.

1. Pete Holmes has said the bill is okay. While you are an alt hip media outlet perhaps that old fashioned nostrum of "hearing from the other side" should apply?

You know, for like, um, balance 'n' stuff?

2. Your implicit proposition is that a court reviews the factual basis or evidence before a legislature and this is totally wrong and would lead to very bad things that usually you would not support. do you want the Roberts Supreme Court reviewing the factual basis for HCR? The strict scrutiny test is about the asserted governmental interest ....not whether in fact it exists....a free speech trial is not a review of the hearings and evidence before a legislature.

separation of powers 'n' stuff.

3. your assumption that infraction laws are bad because of follow on conduct being criminalized (not showing up at hearings) is wrong. All kinds of infractions affect the poor mostly....and lead to jail if the poor don't show up at hearings.

You're just skimming the surface hear. I know it's hard to summarize the legal stuff but try to go beyond a mere recitation of the applicable standards and a conclusory statement the standards for rejecting this bill are met packed with erroneous assumptions and implicit misstatements of how the whole things works.

BTW one quick way to do this is to ..... get the other side of the story. here you have Pete Holmes, very much the people's city attorney, saying you're wrong and you don't even bother to quote him?

Sort of willful ignorance, isn't it?
2
You read the article incorrectly. When Holden refers to "legislation", he means the Council. They are the City's legislature, and they will be passing or not passing the ordinance. The ordinance would be reviewed by a court, not the State Legislature.
3
@1 Might want to actually check with Holmes before you assert that he thinks the legislation is "okay".
4
I was wondering if Holmes, as the city attorney, is obligated to defend the law if it passes?
5
"Courts have generally upheld ordinances designed to curb panhandling" is the first line of the PI story.

Hey, Dominic, do you do a lot of work screening who you talk to about this bill? Because for example, I'm sure you must know women who feel afraid to walk alone downtown, but you didn't talk to any of them. You instead walked around "looking vulnerable" or some freaky shit like that. Why not speak to someone who feels that way? Isn't it weird that this bill has such overwhelming support out in the real world but here in the Dominic Holden world everyone is against it? Does that make sense?

And you don't seem to have spoken to the heads of the downtown nonprofits who support this bill. Did they refuse to speak to you or did you not like what they had to say?

Hell, I'd settle for you asking Dan Savage what he thinks about this. Anything to bring in a little fresh air to the claustrophobic stories you keep writing.
6
@5: You've yet to cite proof of "overwhelming real world" support aside from a poll that asks if people think aggressive and intimidating panhandling was bad or not.

And how isn't Dominic part of any class that's targeted by crime? Bias crimes keep going up and up and up in this city...
7
I love the italicized "compelling interest" and "narrowly tailored." Is there a Wikipedia article on strict scrutiny you went to for this post?
8
@6 - true, bias crimes are going up.

The question is, if aggressive panhandling arrests are down on a per capita percentage measure, why is this Nanny State law for millionaires being pushed?
9
@5: "I'm sure you must know women who feel afraid to walk alone downtown." For fuck's sake elenchos this ordinance is not going to do jack-squat to improve public safety. How hard is that to grasp? I defy you to point to any aspect of this ordinance that will have any discernible impact on safety (or even people's perception of it).
10
I know women who are afraid to walk alone down their own block. I also know many women who are not afraid to do so, and who are not afraid to walk alone downtown. Fears often have no real-life basis, nor does the claim that this ordinance has overwhelming public support.
11
Well gnossos, I think it might help a little to write tickets to some of the more extreme and aggressive human spam we meet out there. I don't expect that it will help a lot but it might help a little. Discounting the histrionic ravings I've read predicting the end of civil liberties as we know them and $100 billion in claims against the city, I don't see it doing any harm. These arguments against the $50 civil infraction would carry a bit more weight if they weren't so laughably out of this world. Tone it down a little and somebody might believe you. The whacked out fear mongering hasn't worked on me, or on the city council, or on their constituents.

So it will perhaps make a little dent. Or it will do nothing. And on the other hand, none of the opposition has anything concrete to offer. Everyone (including weightless fluff parts of Burgess' bill) talks about more cops, by nobody says how they'll pay for them. Everybody wants more services, but nobody says how they'll pay for them. Until you come up with some money in the budget, you really haven't proposed anything, which means your position is to sit on your hands and do nothing.
12
Well sarah68, maybe you disagree with people who are afraid of aggressive drunks and crazies on the street, but you have spoken to them, haven't you? All I'm asking is why didn't Dominic speak to them?

Is a strapping young man walking downtown "trying to look vulnerable and docile" a fair way of addressing the concerns of people who are afraid of street crazies and drunks? Is that respectful? To me it is an insult.
13
@11: elenchos, I'm glad that you, at least, are acknowledging the "weightless fluff parts of Burgess' bill." Other people keep pointing to this without recognizing that there is not a red cent going towards them.

As far as "aggressive drunks and crazies on the street." Frankly, I don't want folks like that cited with a $50 pay sometime later fine. That does nothing for public safety. If they are a threat to public safety (including the safety of homeless people they prey on), then they should either be arrested or diverted into case management. A fine is ridiculous.
14
@13,

The police are fundamentally lazy. At most they'll tell aggressive types to move along, and much of their laziness is due to the fact that, if aggressive homeless are arrested, they'll be back on the street in a matter of days. Ticketing is less of a time investment and *might* lead to some aggressive people backing off.

And they will be diverted to case management if they fail to show up to court.
15
Seattle has the fewest sworn officers per capita of any major city in the US, and of most smaller cities too. If you want Seattle to have the same levels of public safety that other cities have, the city must fund a massive increase in police staffing. And probably overhaul the tax structure first in order to pay for it. But I don't see any of that happening any time soon.

What we do know is that the current criminal statute against aggressive panhandling doesn't work because it's never enforced. The SPD spends all its time on murders, rapes, and other serious violent crime. The don't investigate burglaries or car thefts, and they don't spend time doing paperwork and processing suspects for aggressive panhandling.

The whole point of this thing is to give the SPD something they can actually use, because it doesn't require massive resources that they don't have. And it might work a little bit. And still nobody else has any proposals on the table.

Please wait...

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