Does this sound familiar? Blaming the victim to make themselves less culpable. Desperate times indeed call for desperate measures.

interesting development.

a certain, now banned, troll named ecce homo said the same thing and was castigated for it.

I hope all works out for those involved.

Oh, okay, then they should release a copy of the initial domestic violence complaint.

Banned, and yet... here you are.

I thought it was Scull that passed on, and that it was Greene that was doing the suing?

Meh. The Press-Democrat. What a asswipe of a paper. Owned by the New York Times organization, but bears no resemblance to that storied publication. Specializes in USAToday type stories, ie: lite on content and facts; consistently conservative in its editorial slant and out of touch with its constituency. Do not expect any kind of in-depth coverage on this issue from that rag.

That being said, its good to finally see *something* about this story, in the paper.

What, Dan, asking questions? Just accept some hearsay and get on with more direct rant.

I knew something didn't add up with that story. Now that the truth came out what spin are the lobbies gonna portray now? ....... too late. The same fringe activist who are now questioning the Sonoma County handling of this would be criticizing and whining if the police had taken to jail a 78 year old self identified homosexual.

Hateschile.....it bears repeating: yer an idiot.

*IF* you were to pull yer head out of yer cornhole you might realize that this is waaaay much more than a simple "lobbies" issue. If the County can do this to this couple they can do it to anybody, and for all we know, they have.

Gawd, you are such an idiot.

Are there any police reports to substantiate the county's claims, or is it just hearsay?

This doesn't pass the sniff test, not that will trouble Hateschild.

1. Why wasn't Clay charged? I've yet to meet a prosecutor who will walk away from a murder case, especially where DAs are elected. If Clay hit Harold and Harold died because of that's manslaughter, minimum.

2. If Clay wasn't charged because he was not mentally competent (again, not a problem for many American prosecutors), why isn't there an incident report? Anything that protects cops and prosecutors or politicians usually gets leaked fast.

3. Even if Clay DID assault Harold, how on earth is that relevant to seizing and selling everything that the couple owned? Since when do DV cases have 100% asset seizure? "Oh, your husband hit you, ma'am? No problem. We'll just seize and sell everything you have and put him in an old age home, but not lay charges."

4. Why was the sale so rapid, and without valuation?

One of the posters on an earlier thread noted that this was two old gays who'd spent decades in the entertainment industry and were up to their ears in highly valuable collectables. Cui bono? Who ever got their hands on that for pennies on the dollar (and perhaps even pennies on the hundreds of dollars).

The more comes out the more that it seems like the use of state power as a vehicle to commit a good-old fashioned robbery. It's more subtle than the cops in Texas (Louisiana?) who were getting people to sign over their property lest drugs be planted and their children go to foster care, but it feels the same.

The county's defensive response has a feel about it of "oh christ, we are so in it if this comes out, so stonewallstonewallstonewall!".

If this is to be sorted out it has to be moved away from local law enforcement: FBI or state police, and treated as a crime until they can prove otherwise. Not that that will happen, mind.

@10, ever ready with your vast collection of stones to throw, I see.

@10 WTF!?!? What makes you think that any group of people would squawk at a 78 year old guy being taken to jail for an actual, provable, and legitimate case of domestic violence, regardless of his sexual orientation?? If this was what actually happened to send Mr. Scull to the hospital, the hospital and county social service agencies would be legally required to inform the police, and the police would be legally required to arrest Mr. Greene, but nothing of the sort happened.

Guess that worldwide boycott of Sonoma County is starting to have an impact, especially since it went viral.

The medical records from the fall may be evidence. Also any statements made by Scull after the incident. There should be ample written documentation in regards to a domestic violence charge especially if it was used to establish Greene as unfit to care for himself.

I smell a cover up. Why not call Adult Protective Services or the cops? Makes no sense.

The smell of manure is coming in pretty strong off of the vineyards today.

Equally important, why didn't the The Press Democrat ask the same questions Dan is asking before they published this article?Shameful...

If there are no records in evidence to support the county's allegations of domestic violence, it's extremely irresponsible of the Press Democrat to repeat the county's hearsay as "the other side of the story," especially since the county's allegations, even if absolutely true, would not be grounds to disregard powers of attorney, advance medical directives and legal executorship in order to seize and auction joint assets.

There is another, uncomfortable matter when one is dealing with 88 year old citizens with declining faculties: t is not unheard of for them to get reality wrong. Harold may have genuinely believed that he was attacked by Clay; dementia, if present, is a frightening warper of perception. But that's what investigations are for.

A question: Does this paper have a history of being too cosy with local Authority? The timeline would fit: they ask the paper to hold off on the story until the internal scrambling has settled on a story and a plan.

Well, I'm not too proud of my home county right now.

Do we have a Lords of Bakersfield situation in Santa Rosa?

Comment away, Slog!

http://www.watchsonomacounty.com/2010/04…

@15 You're kidding ? You really haven't seen the hell that well funded gay groups and individuals have raised whenever a self-identified homosexual cries foul, it's cry discrimination or homophobia first and let the facts come out second.

You can take this to the bank, once this whole story is sorted out you'll see the hand of some bitter well funded anti prop 8 individual seeking a victim to advance the gay marriage agenda. And since for some sick reason they refuse to make their case with able-bodied adults, what better victims to use than the young and the elderly. It'll boil down to that.

Wow. Loveschild is bonkers, right?
Seriously, can anyone be that deluded and disconnected from objective reality?

tomorrow, they'll be blaming those women who don't cover themselves from head to toe.

Next week, it'll be the fault of Obama passing healthcare.

Needless to say, the DV charge is intended (right or wrong) to confuse the issue. As noted, where is the police involvement? Doesn't California have "must report" laws for public/social workers?

Sonoma County must have more information that they think vindicates them, otherwise, this is going to go very badly for them in court. I can't see a jury siding with the County based on the info so far.

All that said, I don't agree with a boycott of the entire County right now. I don't see how punishing small business owners (for example) for the acts of (apparently) two employees is right. If it comes out that a cover-up occurred, or this has been systematic in the County, then that's a different matter...

I am curious to know whom has investments in the retirement home that Mr. Greene was sent to. My sister was almost forced into a nursing home after a bad car accident, even though she had family quite able and willing to take care of her. I did some research into the facility they insisted she go to. Turns out the social worker making the call was a board member. We had a little chat with her superior.

Oh, and Loveschild: Please don't be so obtuse. Can't you see (if the allegations are true, of course) that the County could rip ANY marriage/relationship apart using this DV excuse? Aren't you concerned about the use of governmental power to destroy families?

The mystical world of Loveschild. Man have I missed it. A world were the majority is being repressed by a small minority. If a vote doesn't go her way, then the majority has been strong armed by the minority. If a member of the minority is beaten, robbed, or slandered then they are whining for attention, lying to gain sympathy, and pushing their agenda on the oppressed majority. If the legislative branch of a our republic fails to support her position they are denying the majority its voice, never mind that this a representative democracy. If a judge votes against her then they are activists judges hoisting the minority's equal rights upon her.

The poor persecuted majority, a legion of avowed victims. No matter how you spin it, they are always the suffering oppressed. Poor, poor majority.

@27 - yes. haven't you seen the Times editorial that Joni Earl wrote about the Ban on Homeless today?

Way to go Assholes.
You stuck your noses in and now your poster boy Greene is facing a murder rap and the gas chamber.

not a bad days work....

Mind boggling. So now they're saying "Not only did we NOT abuse two elderly gay men, but we let one of them get away with murder out of the goodness of our homo-loving hearts." Um, whatever.

I am made even more suspicious since the 78-year-old is represented by counsel at this point - I don't think any lawyer with a client he thought was guilty of murder would be arguing for the man to be found mentally competent.

MAYBE this was an abusive relationship. However, unless there's proof of it and a police report to back the statement up, I think they're looking at libel charges as well.

Whatever happened, some basic procedures appear to have been violated, and there is no way that Sonoma County is going to come out of this looking that good.

@Loveschild: I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused by you.

You see, I read this blog rather regularly, and that makes sense, because I'm an 18 yo queer kid in college that finds Dan Savage hilariously entertaining and likes procrastinating. However, I have noticed that every time I read the comments, you've made some remark or another that very clearly shows how little you care for both Dan Savage and what he writes. I'm fine with that, people are free to their own opinion.

That said, though, it is normal for people to read and comment on what they like. Now, you might not read everything Dan writes, but it sure seems like it considering how much you've commented. But that does raise some questions...

My question is, if you hate this so much, why do you read it and comment on it far more than I do?

Are you so masochistic that you enjoy being hated?
Do you honestly believe you can change people by insulting them?
Or are you just some sad, self-hating, closeted bigot who was unable to come to terms with your own sexuality and vents your bile on everyone else?

I know that last one sounds a bit harsh, but they're the only explanations that make any ounce of logical sense to me. Thanks.

Nice to see that
a little information
doesn't derail the HyperHomoHysteria-
just aim the parade
in a new direction and floorboard it!

Ignorant Bigots
never let the Facts
spoil a good Hatefest....

@32
I heart you Kim. Always such a breath of fresh, logical, rational, humble, CHRISTIAN air. This atheist thanks you once again.

Actually... gay legal orgs like NCLR are extremely cautious about the cases they take. If they though there was any possibility that Clay was in the wrong, or that this had a DV angle, they wouldn't have invested TWO YEARS in pursuing this. Gay legal orgs are all about precedent-setting test cases, and they can't afford to have those explode in their faces. NCLR wouldn't be on this if they hadn't vetted it already. This isn't about taking any claim of anti-gay discrimination at face value, this isn't about credulousness.

Gay legal orgs can't risk being credulous.

@37: "Ignorant Bigots
never let the Facts
spoil a good Hatefest...."

Funny you should say that, Period Hivemind, since you're the one insisting that what the county says is God's own truth, despite the lack of evidence to back up their version of events...

39

And in TWO YEARS they never uncovered the allegation of abuse?

Or just chose to leave that little tidbit out?...

Blackjack @ 36.

Loveschild is married to the first man she ever made out with, a man who is not only the father of her children but also a 'recovered' homosexual. If homosexualilty were okay, he'd leave her and live a far happier, more self-accepting life. Obviously that would be bad for Loveschild. So she comes here and rants about how evil 'Teh Gay' are and how their super-secrit councils are threatening her world order and therefore the entire fate of humanity.

Either that or she a collection of really weird philosophy students who like to yank our collective chain. The jury is still out.

"...has sparked a firestorm within the gay community..."

I hate the way the media always does this, as though only "the gay community" would care about the abuse of two elderly men.

"The only memento Clay has is a photo album that Harold painstakingly put together for Clay during the last three months of his life.”
After finally getting away from his abuser he spent his final moments making him a photo album?

43

dude-

don't hate the HomoHyperHysteria!™

embrace it.....

@41: Or MAYBE the county just now made the claim that there was abuse, now that people are getting on their ass about the case. Maybe there was nothing to find in that regard for the past two years. Hrmmmmm...*strokes beard*...hrmmmmm. Is could maybe be?

@45: I've told you before, that is not a trademark. And bravo, Period Hive Drone; you just used at least seven lines to say eight strings. You are the very definition of fluff. MIRITE?

This case is not just a gay rights case; it's an elder rights case. You have two old guys, no kids to watch out for them...how much you wanna bet this is not the only old couple in Sonoma county who've been stripped of their rights and goods by public officials? This is positively Dickensian.

Please consider sending a letter to the editor at lettters@pressdemocrat.com
Here's mine

Dear Editor

In Paul Payne's story "Lawsuit ignites firestorm in gay community against Sonoma County," the County's lawyer, Mr. Spaulding, is quoted as saying that Harold Scull was hospitalized after Clay Greene, his partner of 25 years, attacked him. However, this allegation simply doesn't make sense. If Mr. Greene had attacked and seriously injured his partner, why wasn't Mr. Greene charged and arrested? Why wasn't a restraining order in place? Why wasn't Mr. Greene arrested for murder after his partner died in the hospital while recovering from his injuries?

County employees may very well have initially suspected abuse, but that is not what Mr. Spaulding stated. Unless Mr. Payne misquoted him, Mr. Spaulding stated that Mr. Greene had in fact committed a serious violent crime. If that accusation held any merit whatsoever, Mr. Spaulding certainly would have mentioned a criminal investigation and charges, an arrest, a restraining order, etc. Instead Mr. Spaulding appears to be utilizing an ancient and very unpleasant tactic -- blame Mr. Greene, attempt to undermine his character, and use highly charged insinuations to draw our focus from the heart of the matter.

For those who wish to become familiar with case lodged against the County, the docket submitted to the court lists the complaints in great detail. It's a sobering and at times chilling read. The docket is available free online at the National Center for Lesbian Rights web page (www.nclrights.org).

I also want to clarify that this isn't simply a gay rights issue. This is about all of us, our vulnerability as citizens and the particular vulnerability we face as we age. It isn't only the gay community that is deeply disturbed by this case. I will continue to closely monitor how this plays out, as will many of my friends. I don't know Mr. Greene, and I'm not gay, but I know wrong when I see it.

The NCLR has posted a statement about the alleged domestic abuse:

http://www.nclrights.org/site/PageServer…

46, and others: the plaintiffs did not just uncover the allegations of abuse, and neither did they "leave it out." It's directly dealt with in their complaint, in which they allege that the defendants knowingly made false allegations of abuse. As I understand it, the defendants first made these false allegations as part of their fraudulent Petition for Conservatorship.

Obviously, if the allegations made by Greene are true, the Sonoma County officials involved have acted incredibly heinously. Of course, the alleged behavior is grotesque and unacceptable; that much, at least, is beyond question.

Posters here have pointed out inconsistencies in the explanation provided by counsel for the County. But, at this point, it's all conjecture. There very well could be answers for every listed inconsistency. Greene wasn't arrested? Perhaps Clay never pressed charges, but policy reasons required that officials keep the "suspected" assaulter away from the victim... We really don't know yet, do we?

The reason I mention this is because, as a young, liberal, native Sonoman, I'm incredulous that something like this could happen back home (I live in Portland these days). As long as I can remember, I've thought it was common knowledge that Guerneville (and West Sonoma County) is a very queer friendly place. In general, Sonoma County is one of the most liberal, queer-friendly non-urban (as in "not a major urban center") regions on the West Coast (not that there aren't elements of bigotry and ignorance). It's just as hard to believe that local gov't officials would do something this stupid to people who live in Guerneville. It's a small place! Word gets around! And it's not like these officials get to keep the money for themselves...

That said, if Greene's allegations are true, then he should be compensated "accordingly" (as if money would ever really replace what he has lost).

Or maybe you guys know something I don't...

Court documents filed in Sonoma County state, “The records show that on April 27, 2008, Scull was admitted to Kaiser Hospital in Santa Rosa as a result of domestic violence-related injuries which Scull reported were inflicted by Greene,”

Again, even if it were a DV case, even if one accepts that as completely true, that gives no right whatsoever to seize the extensive and valuable assets of both alleged victim and alleged perpetrator and sell them, let alone in that slapdash and rushed fashion.

53, can you cite the source for that quote? I'm sure I'm not the only person who'd be interested in reading the filing.

Seriously, Loveschild? Repeatedly using the term "self-identified homosexual"? What decade are you living in?

@43 I came here to say that. Glad I found your comment so I didn't just repeat it. I posted the story on Facebook and many of my straight friends reposted and expressed their disgust and outrage. That statement, "...a lawsuit that has sparked a firestorm within the gay community," doesn't make me as angry as what actually happened to Greene and Scull, but it's definitely worth pointing out.

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exo 22:18

Ah, Loves... er I mean HATESchild, you are now predicting the future based on circumstances that never happened...

"The same fringe activist who are now questioning the Sonoma County handling of this WOULD be criticizing and whining IF the police had taken to jail a 78 year old self identified homosexual"

The madness never ends...

If all this is true, at least that this is what the county thought at the time and not just a cover story now, then how can they justify selling off Clay's stuff before he was found guilty? I assume they're claiming it was all merely restitution for the bills he caused by beating on his bf, but since that was never legally established, how can they just come in and take it? And if he was never arrested or convicted, who had the authority to throw the poor man in a nursing home against his will? It is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, but it sounds to me like they took all his stuff as punishment for a crime he was never arrested for, imprisoned him for it, and yet never filed the obvious murder charges. If all this domestic violence stuff is true (doubtful), then what kind of a county is it that doesn't arrest people for murder?!

Something you have to consider when dealing with an 88 year old man in frail health: Dementia. Symptoms include falling, paranoia, and hallucinations:

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/dementia_…

If domestic violence was truly a factor here, that changes everything. But this is a rare case where Spaulding so credulously taking Scull at his supposed word is probably yet another red flag.

More from the Press Democrat. Poor, poor Sonoma County.
And what a cute story about a heterosexual couple and how they met in the same article. Is Sonoma County going to kick them out of their house, sell their stuff and dispose of their pets? Probably not.
http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/201…

Well, it would be sad. Sonoma County isn't a particularly intolerant place. Guerneville is a noted queer-friendly community.

I mean, someone has to ask WHAT exactly the county officials had to gain here. Did these particular officials have a grudge against Greene and/or Scull? It's not like they were going to get a share of the liquidated assets.

I'm not trying to come off as skeptical. Either side's story could be accurate, or it could be a mix of both. It just seems really out of character from what I know about the general community in Sonoma County.

Bottom line, Harold Scull needed 3 weeks hospitalization and later DIED after his partner allegedly assaulted him. Why are so many people doubting Sonoma County's assertion that Scull blamed Greene for the fall and he did not want Greene visiting him in the hospital. Nobody but Clay and Harold knew what happened when Harold fell. For this reason there will never be criminal charges. But gay or straight, married or domestically partnered or roommates, lucid or senile, Harold Greene had a right not to be second guessed. We should give the benefit of the doubt to the more vulnerable party, not to the more persuasive.

GLBT brothers and sisters, use your heads. Is it really LIKELY that Sonoma County police, health care, social workers and lawyers hatched a giant conspiracy to destroy 2 gay men? This is 21st Century Northern California not 1960’s Mississippi.

In America, when you have a winning case before the courts, you don’t issue a one-sided press release asking the public to voice their outrage. If you have a strong case you wait and let the courts decide. However, if your case is weak, it’s to your advantage to settle out of court. And how do you improve the chances of that happening? You use public opinion to vilify and pressure the other side. Think about it.

It's likely that public guardians and court appointed conservators steal from old people. That is why states including New Mexico have stricter laws than California and periodic auditing of their accounts. Being a gay couple just made it easier in this case. In fact this isn't even the first time public guardian Sally Liedholm has been accused of fraud/elder abuse. There is an old case from 1994 and the couple was straight.
http://wjfa.net/pg/perfect_crime.html