SL Letter of the Day: More Advice for "Concerned Father"

Comments

1
If something did happen to her as a child it may have legally been rape but it might have been consensual. That does not excuse any breaking of the law or moral transgression of the abuser but there is also a change she looks back to a (possible) experience as a good experience. This would explain why she (possibly) would not be traumatized later in life.

FWIW I think this scenario is unlikely however it's something to consider. A lot of victims have trouble admitting any pleasure from an attack but it does happen.
2
Jamie's advice seems to make sense - kudos to her for being open enough to explore this concept and comment. Secondly, I'm glad to see your podcast being used for educational purposes. I know I've learned so much over the years from you, so to see it being used like this is a HUGE pile of win. :-)
3
It seems safer to say, "Honey, I really enjoy it when we role play the whole daddy-daughter thing, but it kind of freaks me out to play your real dad."

Makes sense to me. I suspect a lot of guys wouldn't mind indulging their wife or girlfriend in daddy-daughter roleplay (or would find it hot), but they'd get creeped out if she wanted them to play her father.

In fact, past research shows that 31-57% of women have had rape/submission fantasies...

I'd be interested to know what the percentage range is for rape fantasies vs. submission fantasies. I'd bet submission fantasies are far more common that actual rape fantasies. I've been with numerous women who enjoyed being submissive (at times) but not a single one ever wanted to roleplay a rape.
4
@3 You mean you have never been with a woman who told you she was into that kind of roleplay. You are probably right that there is a sliding scale that gets less and less popular but these numbers seem to show the percentage is higher than I would have otherwise guessed.
5
@3 It's worth considering that the two can be kind of blurry. Without talk, rough sex and / or light bondage can be a rape fantasy OR a submission fantasy in the heads of each person participation in it. Struggling against the bondage can be a "don't rape me" or a submission fantasy. It's all context that goes on in each participant's head. For all you know, you WERE roleplaying a rape. Roleplay in the bedroom doesn't have to include words, after all.
6
Packeteer, yes to your sliding scale comment. And perhaps that's what was meant with those statistics, that while up to 57% of women have had broad-based submission fantasies, 31% have had more specific rape fantasies. That would seem about right to me. (By the same token, I would guess many more men have dominance fantasies than have fantasies about raping women.)

Also, fantasies and roleplay are different. It's likely that many people fantasize about things that they would probably never ask their partner to indulge in. I didn't mean to imply that just because not a single woman I've been with wanted to roleplay a rape that they never fantasized about it. I was just using that as an example of the likely "spread" between the submissive (more common) and rape (less common) things.
7
Well, with rape fantasies, I have "heard" (don't have a link to the research) that they are quite common with teenage girls. A reason hypothesized would be that this displaces the action away from the girl herself, and she is without "blame" for the pleasure and desire, which many cultures in one way or another discourages for teenage girls. (More than for boys) In this version of the fantasy the rapist is most often a young, handsome man (only know about the straight version), rather than a nasty, old brute. So perhaps if one started out this way in sexual fantasy land, the fantasy persists into adulthood and hopefully continues to bring pleasure. Though, also hopefully, as an adult and empowered woman she does no longer has the same need of disavowing her desires.
8
Just because your partner hasn't wanted to role play a rape fantasy doesn't mean she doesn't have those fantasies. Rape scenarios are a common theme in my masturbation fantasies, but I haven't yet asked or really wanted to act them out with a partner, though it might be fun someday.
9
I just have to say that I admire "Concerned Father"'s ability to indulge his wife. That is really GGG of him. I try to be as indulging as I can be to my wife's fantasies, but if she asked me to role play that I was her father raping her, the evening would come to a screeching halt. So good on him.
10
I don't have a degree in evolutionary biology, but I work with people who do. It seems there would be an adaptive advantage to mating with a male who can overpower her and impregnate her. Some wimpy dude she could fight off wouldn't be worth the energy expense to birth his offspring. The tough dude who can overpower her would also be better able to overpower any threat to her during her vulnerable period of pregnancy and childbirth.

That this chick fantasizes about her own father specifically is creepy, and CF definitely should win a prize for being so GGG about it.
11
While I agree with all said, it does seem that this activity hurts the husband, whose feelings have not received much attention (yet).
12
I am totally co-opting this woman's fantasy. Ted ain't my daddy!
13
@10 Ugh. That's not evolutionary biology, that's evolutionary psychology. And it's full of shit.

Women have "rape" (in quotes because it's not actually rape) fantasies because women are objectified and sexually assaulted in the real world. The fantasy is a way to control it such institutionalized imagery and real fear a pleasurable experience. Like any sub/dom situation, being a sub doesn't mean you don't have control. The "rape" fantasy is a sexual fantasy of consensual submission.
14
That is, the female CEO of your company would probably enjoy being tied down and ravaged (I worked on this research myself, with Patricia Hawley at the University of Kansas).

Definitely ask her permission first, though.
15
This chick goes to the university in my town. I didn't know there were non-rednecks in my town! I am impressed. And I think her advice is fantastic, and well-supported.
16
@10: As a short answer: nope. As a longer reply: That would work in some species, but humans are incredibly labor intensive. Rapists are not generally good at being doting daddies, and, in "the wild" humans kind of need that. A lot. Babies are weak, need near constant attention, and generally a pain in the ass to feed when you're a hunter-gatherer.
17
It is also worth mentioning that the wife may have enjoyed or wanted these childhood experiences (if they happened at all).
What? Did Jamie just say that the wife, IF she was indeed sexually abused, WANTED to be sexually abused and enjoyed it? Therefore, are we to assume (or perhaps some of us do, already) that some children who have been sexually abused wanted it and enjoyed it? WTF?
18
@17 Why not? Kids are sexual beings, too. They fantasize and masturbate and explore their sexualities. It's uncomfortable, to be sure, but why say its impossible that *some* victims of abuse do enjoy it at the time? This is not to say that abuse is okay, as it almost certainly gives victims unhealthy concepts of sex and relationships, among other negative effects, but its not that great a stretch of the imagination that it might be pleasurable in the moment.
19
Some responses from the letter writer:

@3 - You're right about rape fantasies vs. submission fantasies. The problem is that different studies define these fantasies differently (rape, force, submission, etc.). The word "rape" evokes strong emotions. When researchers use the word "rape" in asking about fantasies, far fewer women report the fantasy. But researchers like Bivona and Critelli have looked at whether the rape is erotic or aversive. Most of the rape fantasies their participants reported were erotic (that is, did not simulate real rape or nonconsent). Erotic rape fantasies are essentially the same as submission fantasies. But using the word "rape" makes people less likely to report them. So, this is a tricky question for researchers.

@7 - What you are talking about is the idea of blame avoidance as an explanation for women's rape fantasies. Some research done in the 1970s supported this, but more recent studies have found little evidence for it. I'm not aware of any research that looks specifically at fantasies in teenage girls. But if teenage girls do have this fantasy more, they may simply have a wider variety of sexual fantasies (trying everything out). Also, I have been involved in some research showing that empowered, socially dominant women are more likely to fantasize about being dominated sexually. Our reasoning is that powerful women want partners who are equally powerful. At least in our research, it had nothing to do with women disavowing their sexual desire.

@13 - There is not any support for the idea that women have this fantasy because they are objectified in real world. First, men also fantasize about being forced to have sex. Second, women who consider themselves to be feminists are just as likely to have submission fantasies as women who are not self-identified feminists. Third, men do not often fantasize about raping or dominating women. Though I do agree with you that the submissive person in such experiences is still in conrol. As I mentioned above, it is rare for women to fantasize about a real loss of control.

@17 - We have no way of knowing what the abuse was like (if it happened). We don't know how old the wife was or how she may have reacted to her father's sexual advances (maybe she flirted back). Please don't mistake what I'm saying here. I am certainly not saying she consented to sex with her father. Legally, children are unable to consent to sex, especially if the other person is in a position of power over them (parents, teachers, etc.). However, research shows that some people are less likely to be traumatized by sexual abuse than others. It depends on the victim's age, the duration of the abuse, whether the abuse was violent, and other factors. That said, I do think it is extremely rare that abuse victims wanted their abuse. And while they may get some sexual pleasure out of it, typically the pleasure is confusing or upsetting to them. But I simply mentioned it as a remote possibility for CF's wife, who fantasizes about her actual father.

-- Jamie Rentfro
20
@17: I was sexually "abused" when I was 3-7 by two significantly older members of my family and enjoyed it at the time. I definitely have what most people would consider a very fucked up sex life now in my late twenties (and have had such since I was about 5 or 6 and starting self-masochism) as well as likely-unrelated-to-that-abuse psychiatric problems, but I have no real negative feelings toward remembering it or interacting with those that did it. It'd be a stretch to say I fantasize about it now though.
21
Why has nobody mentioned that, regardless of whether or not the woman in this scenario was or is abused/traumatized, the MAN'S hesitation about the fantasy-play seems to indicate that HE feels a certain amount of trauma...? Really? He does it, he seems to enjoy it to a certain extent, but certain aspects of the scenario really bother him. We can call it "GGG," but if it's bothering him (and with good reason), maybe he should be given validation that being "GGG" doesn't have to involve going along with roleplay that feels wrong or icky to him. "GGG" is not about feeling obligated to go along with shit you feel is completely sick. For example, if a partner asked me to, say, beat him/her, I'd probably try it, although it doesn't appeal to me at all; but if it really felt BAD to me, really gave me the creeps, I don't care how much my partner likes it, I'm going to stop and explain that I'm just not into it, rather than continue the fantasy at my own emotional expense.
22
"I don't have a degree in evolutionary biology, but I work with people who do. It seems there would be an adaptive advantage to mating with a male who can overpower her and impregnate her. Some wimpy dude she could fight off wouldn't be worth the energy expense to birth his offspring. The tough dude who can overpower her would also be better able to overpower any threat to her during her vulnerable period of pregnancy and childbirth.

That this chick fantasizes about her own father specifically is creepy, and CF definitely should win a prize for being so GGG about it."

@10

Her specific fantasy creeps me out too, but so do a lot of notions about sexual selection in evolutionary biology. It's proponents/fans always seem to posit themselves as looking at things logically, but really I think the field is just as susceptible, if not more susceptible than others, to cultural/personal biases. That's not even taking into account that its very premise, I think, is kind of myopic. I don't think it's any more right to say that the human race ended up this way entirely out of what would be best for its reproduction, than I think it would be right to say that the human race is nothing more than an awkward fluke and a parasitic species plaguing Planet Earth, or some special creature made in the image of God.

Granted, I realize that evolutionary biology is more complex than this, but it is what I hear a lot of evolutionary bio/psycho-logists trying to do - pick any behavior and look for some explanation that would tie it to sexual reproduction. Quite simply, there ARE other forces in this world, not to deny the strength of that one - and anyone who can't see that or spends so much time honing in on that one and presuming its influence in manners/places that it might not extend, strikes me as....wellll, boring and short-sighted at best.

To demonstrate, I might just as easily say that the empathy of a non-rapist male would be more of an adaptive advantage to a female since such a person is more likely to care about things outside of itself (the well-being of his children, for example, and helping his mate in their care), thus allowing them to grow up and make MORE babies. Now I don't know whether we've isolated any sort of empathy gene or rapist gene, but regardless both explanations (my fake one, and the one you put forth) seem like farcical guesswork to me.
23
Sorry, the evolutionary advantage to rape is pretty much BS, and based on the old 'drag her by her hair' fantasies that older scientists allowed themselves. The answer is that human hunter gatherer societies vary too widely to really tell one way or the other. the !Kung (African Bushmen) are a purely egalitarian society, whereas most Aboriginal groups in Australia are semi-egalitarian. You can read more here.
http://foragers.wikidot.com/gender-hiera…

As for early human society, we can only guess (but mother goddess figurines found don't really point to beat her down and rape her ideas, do they?) You'll notice, that while women tend to prefer strong bodies on men, they also love presents (he gives you food, you have better chance of survival) and go gaga over men who love children (if he likes someone else's kids, chances are, he may stick around and provide for yours).

Here's something else that's interesting: ovulating women choose men with high testosterone and masculine features, but choose lower testosterone men at other times in their cycle. Higher testosterone males indicate that they may have better genes, but are more likely to abandon children, while lower testosterone men are less likely to do so. Makes sense, doesn't it?

Also, it's pretty telling that most women's rape scenarios involve hot guys doing naughty things to them. Of all the women I know who fantasize about rape/submission, its never bloody or painful in real life. Fantasy about rape doesn't have anything to do with actually wanting to be actually raped!