Maybe the reason they have low rents is they haven't had property developers/speculators try to drive up their prices sky high ...

"ahem, maybe something other than barbecue pork?" -- Uhhh, yeah. Did you actually try eating in the ID? There are some good cheap places down there.

"Where was the hustle and bustle, the colorful Chinese lanterns and streamers that are ubiquitous with Chinatowns in New York and San Francisco?" Yeah, this kitsch is really unattractive to me.

That said, the ID does seem dead. I even like Vancouver's paltry Chinatown better.

@2, hi! yeah, i eat in the ID all the time and love it. My favorites are Bistro 663, Greenleaf and House of Hong. There were people in the survey who said they wanted to see more diversity in the cuisine/specialty stores, so I used that statement to stress that.

Green Leaf is so awesome. The time before last, Eric Ripert was at a table by me and I almost plotzed from excitement.

One thing you may not immediately grasp about that picture of San Francisco's Chinatown, and why it seems so vibrant compared to ours, is that the street is so much narrower there. Narrow streets and crowded sidewalks help create vibrancy. The other side doesn't seem so separate. See Clark/Bagshaw/Burgess nattering on about trees and "pedestrian-friendly sidewalks", which are irrelevant and probably actively hostile to urban interest.

Sadly there isn't anything Seattle can do about its street grid. It would be nice, though, if the people making plans had some idea what streets that aren't suburban-dull look like.

It bears mentioning also that the ID used to be a lot more vibrant than it is now, back before the city willfully destroyed it. The Japanese Deportation, Yesler Terrace, and I-5 were all kind of a long time ago, but it would be nice if the city would show SOME kind of historical awareness of their own responsibility. In fact, one reason to fear this redevelopment plan is precisely the long track record of the city destroying what it claims to be helping. More recent examples include the atrocity of the bus tunnel station, the hateful, anti-urban new skyscrapers that were allowed to be built along 4th Ave. S., and the traffic routing there, on Dearborn, and on Airport Way S.

A look at the arial map of the district reveals just how shockingly much of it is pavement and inaccessible areas. The city doesn't seem to recognize this is true.

You could say the same thing about Pioneer Square.

I could also point out that the leadership in the ID all too often comes from the 1970s-era "community organizers" who don't really understand or represent a lot of what's gone on there in the forty years since they took up their positions as unelected liaisons to the white folks at City Hall. You can see this in the lack of interest in Little Saigon's landlords; they're a newer generation (and even Little Saigon is a misnomer in an area that is more recently overwhelmingly new Chinese).

@6, you raise some excellent points. Good rebuttal.

There are some awesome cheap eats in the ID that are holes in the wall no one knows about. Plus, Uwajimaya. Does a shopping experience get any more awesome than that? The ID is great but, yeah, the sidewalks smell like poo.

@8, I think you spilled a little post hoc ergo propter hoc on your bib there.

@ 9: Agreed, there are a lot of great restaurants and Uwajimaya in the ID, but dining does not an awesome "shopping experience" make.

The neighborhood is fantastic and part of its charm is its uniqueness. Seattle's Chinatown ID is not and never will be San Francisco's, Vancouver's or other. Let it stand apart as something that this city can celebrate. Jamfest and the Night Markets are great events that bring people into the community. IMHO what the neighborhood needs is a diversity of businesses to support the various needs and interests of residents and visitors alike. And a mix of residents that can afford to support the businesses.

Momo, Kobo, Pink Godzilla, the tea houses and Asian specialty shops like Sun May & Minh Chau Jewelery and Gifts are all great, but won't support the neighborhood on their own. Determining what is needed is like walking on a tightrope. What is the right mix of businesses that can continue to support the neighborhood without displacing those who helped to create the neighborhood?? And what is the residential mix that can support those businesses? Do a search on Vision 2030 and see what members of the community are advocating for.

A friend of mine lived in Chinatown for two years. He's a pretty imposing guy, not afraid of being hassled by the crack dealers (which happened periodically), but he eventually moved out because he couldn't get the city to stop emptying the dumpsters at 2am multiple times per week right outside his (first story) window. Interesting to hear the city finally care about the fact that the neighborhood is dirty and dominated by crack addicts. A "vibrant" city neighborhood can support having plenty of druggies and visible homeless people, but only in proportion to the other people there. There aren't enough shoppers and diners in Seattle's ID to balance it out.

Thank you, Fnarf, for bringing some much-needed historical context to this.

1.) "Sure, our skyline needs a few more buildings, but should it come at the cost of driving away that Chinese immigrant who spent all his life savings to open up a dollar store?"

You imply a false dichotomy here, how do taller buildings drive up rents for immigrants? What drives up rents is when the area becomes more attractive and the demand for retail space outstrips the supply. Presumably that is the idea behind this economic development strategy but taller buildings won't do that in themselves, you can have tall buildings in shitty neighborhoods too. Even if it increases development pressures, I'm pretty sure property owners are only taxed on the current use, not the allowed use. And even further, most of the buildings in the ID are protected as part of a National historic district.

2.) "Where was the hustle and bustle, the colorful Chinese lanterns and streamers that are ubiquitous with Chinatowns in New York and San Francisco?"

Are you really comparing Seattle's Chinatown to the two biggest and most famous Chinatowns in the United States? Our Chinatown never did and never will rival those, sorry.

And also, Seattle's Chinatown has plenty of kitsch, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about. There are the dragons, the gate, Takagawa fountains, Hing Hay park and the Mural, Banners, and other Asia-themed art. If anything, it seems they over do the Chinatown stuff, likely because they have to make up for a lack of real character.As Fnarf rightly points out, the area has been shit on for years and today its really just a shell of a functioning neighborhood.

The issues go deep and its going to take a long, long time before its a healthy community again, not just an ad campaign, more street trees, and a few taller buildings.

@Josh - "I'm pretty sure property owners are only taxed on the current use, not the allowed use." - you'll find that the county taxes on highest and best use for comparable properties. Rezones often result in speculative movement of properties and this does result in displacement of people and businesses. This can be for both commercial and residential properties. New construction will never allow the type of businesses that operate on the margins that they do to survive. You can say goodbye to the cheap eats that everyone here lauds. And you can say goodbye to the "international" character of the area (which has a demographic mix that rivals the highly touted 98118 and needs the low-cost amenities it offers).

"today its really just a shell of a functioning neighborhood" - spoken like a true white outsider (as am I). What we have to acknowledge - and hopefully COBE will too - is that existing today there is a delicate fabric of a community that needs to understood and nurtured so that that changes do not further displace it as well. While the ID is not as residential as it could be, and it does not have the vibrancy of Cap Hill, it does have a life and that life is not well understood by those on the outside.

Livable South Downtown is a vestige of the Nickels era "develop develop develop" mentality where every neighborhood is treated as a blank slate and eligible for intense growth or urban renewal.

The "International District" today is a complicated blend of various cultures and interests that have been woven together over time as @Fnarf attests. And our city's blunt instrument of rezoning is dangerous to it. Particularly one as sweeping and dramatic as that proposed.

I agree with Riya's sentiment that the rezone can wait and other more tactical actions should be addressed first. The urgency to complete the rezone by some on COBE reflect a lack of sensitivity or understanding of the issues. And this effort overall is driven by the idea that doing big things - rather than the right thing - is leadership.

It should also be noted that Vision 2030, while developed with representatives from various elements of the ID community, it is weighted towards wanting a marked rebuild and has been tempered to a large degree by "70's era community organizers" (who understand this shit a lot better than Fnarf). This effort needs to engage more of the Vietnamese diaspora that Quang Ngyuen alludes to.

Overall, the pace of change needs to be measured so that a wholesale reinvention of the neighborhood, such as what is happening in South Lake Union, does not occur. At least that is if we truly value what the ID represents and has to offer.

A few simple solutions to vibrancy and making the ID a destination:
1) Put in a nice multistory parking lot so people can get to the destination. Light rail was a good first step for adding access from S. Seattle, but if people are coming from North or East, they'll most likely drive.
2) Make the place feel cleaner/safer so once there people will feel safe to linger outside and explore
3) After doing one and two, add housing

A few ridiculously expensive and disruptive gambles for the same goal (or is it):
1) Redevelop the place by blowing up existing building and replacing them with newer, douchier developments that don't fit the community. Optionally, leave it an empty lot.
2) Repeat until said community no longer exists
(For guidance, reference Capitol Hill)

I-5 cuts through the ID, it wouldn't be such a negative if it weren't such an eyesore and no-mans-land, and at night, down-right scary. I love the ID and the mom and pop stores, the grocery stores, the Wing Luke Museum. Seattle and the ID should do all it can to retain its cultural history and scene. Add visuals, hey, lanterns swinging in the street are a good thing. Keep it safe and keep it clean. It's a Seattle gem! Yea, too bad the stadiums are so close, but there they are, they can be ignored.