Comments

1
Hasn't this horse been beaten to death yet?
2
Well, obviously not FTE.

So, one more blow for the horse. I need sex. I need it regularly. And ain't I a woman?
3
yeah
when Savage isn't beating off to porn he is posting about beating off to porn......

he leads a full rich life
4
Jesus Christ, men, if you like porn, *stop marrying* porn-averse women. Your ridiculous relationship choices have gay men screaming about how they're so glad they don't like icky vagina, while the rest of us get to nurse headaches convincing everyone our sex isn't all harpies and shrews.

Yes, I'm blaming you because the crazy women in these cases clearly aren't to be reasoned with and can't make rational choices. You can. Just run the fuck away. If you're so desperate to get laid those few times a month/year as to marry these women anyway, then you've made your bed. Stop squawking to the rest of us. I (for one) can't be bothered to give a shit anymore.
5
I blame religion.
6
OK, this:

"One client who I see twice a year when he's in town for business says he started to worry he had ED because he couldn't stay aroused with his wife like before. AND that after a night with me, he goes back to her as a better performer for the next three months. "

is fucked up. This isn't the wife not wanting it, this is, presumably, the wife wanting it an the man not being able to give it until he goes out and cheats on her. This doesn't exactly prove your point Dan.

I am a lady and like sex, more then most men I've been with. I just don't write to you because I haven't needed to.
7
What Gloria said. #4.

Dan, instead of just talking about how women need to suck it up and put out when they don't want to if they want a man - could you add in something about how men should consider dating, and not just fucking, us ladies who DO enjoy sex?? How about don't buy the cow if it doesn't produce milk??
8
The reason why it evolved the way it did is because sexually promiscuous women are STILL called sluts (and they take it to be a derogatory comment).

Men (in general) weren't willing to let their women have sex with whoever in the same way that they could - it scared them - so now we get a society where everyone is supposed to be monogamous, or else they get called sluts (and they take it in a not-flattering way).
9
Read any ancient history and these structures make sense. Men run around with all the other dudes killing themselves off and having sex with each other while women stay at home maintaining society, caring for the young and elderly. Living in peaceful society requires acting "like women". The horror!
The remaining few men married multiple women so that everyone got all familied-up. By necessity, the men had to want much more sex than the women so that nobody went around too frustrated/unpregnant.

The real problem here is that we've instituted modern medicine, safety devices, aerial drones, and a sadly limited war policy, so there are just too many dudes around for the limited amount of female desire. To make it worse guys have convinced themselves that gayness is unacceptable. Bush made a valiant effort to reduce the male population, and it's probably worked for the Iraqis and Afghanis, but we just weren't committed enough ourselves.

Don't blame modern women. Blame the enlightenment.
10
Oh Gloria, I do adore you.....
11
Dan,

Why do you always say that women don't need sex? Statistically, women cheat at 1/2 the rate men do (13% vs 25%). Less, yes. But not non-existent by any means.

As a gay guy, you probably don't understand the concept that women are just better liars.
12
Is this guy's name John or Jason???
13
PS. Props to Gloria #4. Best damn thing anyone has said on this topic.
14
Love your last point, Dan, and what Gloria said, too!

If these men weren't so concerned with the appearance of female propriety - that is, date the whore but only marry the madonna - they wouldn't have these problems. They made their own bed of double standards, now they get to lie in them.
15
Elaborating on Gloria's point, how many of these frustrated men have a serious case of madonna/whore syndrome where they intentionally married sex-averse women because those guys are freaked out by women who genuinely like sex? Those men are absolutely, positively getting what they deserve.
16
Doh! Beaten to it!
17
@4

Well, they marry these chicks for many other reasons. She's hot, takes care of him, is well put together, someone to show off to the family, she's maternal, etc. Ya know, "wife" material. Porn-averse is low on the list compared to these other things on the checklist. In fact, "porn-averse" is actually a good sign for them because it means bitch ain't kinky and probably won't cheat on his ass. Nice tight leash. ...And then this porn-drama shit pops up and they act all surprised. Women are cah-razy! they say. Yeah, THESE women ARE cah-razy. But you're the dumbass for marrying her.

Straight men need to realize that kinky chicks can be wife material too (and not a sign of a cheatin' ho), and finding one of them to marry is going to save them lots of trouble in the end.
18
MUST (whack!)
BEAT (whack!)
THIS (whack!)
DEAD (whack!)
FUCKING (whack!)
HORSE (whack!)

(whack! whack! whack!whackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhackwhack
19
I'm kind of depressed over the insinuation that at some point in my life weekly sex (THAT IS NOTHING) will be a chore.
20
Don't want to beat the horse, don't kill it.
21
Dan, can't the web magicians at the Stranger organize your column/videos/podcasts into categories so that readers like this one (new) can find what they're looking for without bugging you every other day for links?
22
@20,

That comment is golden!!!
23
What number 4 said - For fuck's sake, people, if porn is so important to you, stop marrying anti-porn people.
24
Forka: You're beating what now??
25
What @17 said.

I like to think of myself as great wife-material. Lady on the street and all. But I certainly NEED sex on a frequent basis and with plenty of variety. Also, I find nothing wrong with adult porn. I think that should fall into the "sexual compatibility" category, which is very important when considering a life mate.
26
I am incredibly sick of this generalization about women...I like porn, don't give a flying fuck that my boyfriend watches it. Most of my female friends are the same way. I am sick of men bitching and making excuses, blaming it on women. Maybe you should really get to know your partner beforehand. People like to believe that sex is not that important in a relationship and they are being naive. Sex is very important, it's one of my top priorities. It's also one of my boyfriend's top priorities and guess what? We're happy. Considering the fact that many relationships end due to lack of sex, I'm surprised that some people don't think it through before they make a commitment to someone.

Also, it sounds like his sister may be religious or have a religious upbringing due to the fact that her brother is a "recovered mormon." Religion tends to breed shame, guilt, and anti-sex feelings (unless it's for procreation). Might be a thick, tall wall to break down.
27
WHERE does a man get off marrying a woman who is going to cut him off? I don't think it's as abrupt as they like to say...lots of ladies put out way less once the freaking ROCK shows up, much less the white dress and the 2.5 kids.

Oh wait, I know, he married her because she's a "GOOD MORMAN GIRL" like mommy and daddy and church elders want. Big suprise that she turned out to be ::gasp:: sexually repressed. He made the choice to marry within a rabidly anti-sex culture, so I don't have a lot of sympathy.
28
Shoot. I'm one of those flippin' unicorns that can be found here. The idea of 1) sex being a chore, and 2) only having it once a week is depressing, scary, and not going to happen.

Gentlemen, I suggest that you address your opinion about porn and need for it while dating. Waiting to discuss it after erotic love begins to mellow or everyone's "touched out" from child care or work stress is too late.
29
MY GOODNESS, I am so happy that other sex-lovin women are speaking out on this topic. Maybe straight dudes should quit being so afraid of female sexuality, if they don't want to deal with female frigidity.

You want your wife to eat the meat, regularly and with gusto? Marry the girl who chows down on steak and loves it. Buy the milk-squirting cow. Order the ice cream from the ice cream parlor that's been joyfully handing out free samples.

30
I hope John told his sister that all men look at porn, Including himself. It might help if she can ask questions about it to someone she considers a good guy, and not have to take Dan's word for it. Perhaps the letter writer should talk to her too, since he cared enough to write Dan.

Also, the husband will look at porn sometimes even if he's well milked. And she will find it again at some point - lying isn't a permanent solution.
31
So, just out of curiosity, at what point in the dating program do you ask, "Hey! What are your views on porn?" Or maybe the question should be, "Hey! At what point does bed death set in for you?" Or perhaps, "Hey, what are the chances of you doing a complete turnaround on sex once our lives are completely intertwined?"

Speaking as a porn-loving gay guy, when I started dating my boyfriend, he told me that his libido was going down and I could expect no sex within two years. Seven years later, we're still all over each other. Goes both ways, folks.

One last thing from me: I have NEVER read Dan saying that all women don't like porn. But it seems like 99% of the anti-porn mail comes from women.
32
@4 and all her supporters: "Porn-averse women" is most women. Guys who view porn is nearly all guys. So that's not really going to work. You know what might even out the odds? If more women decided it's not a big deal. But nice job trying to make it all the guy's problem, again.
33
This:
@29: Maybe straight dudes should quit being so afraid of female sexuality, if they don't want to deal with female frigidity.

And quite whining. Men rule the fucking world. Western society exists to sexually stimulate you. Feel ashamed of your sexual needs anyway? Try being a woman with sexual needs. Be sure not to miss those magical teenage years! Then you can cry to me about how it feels to be slut-shamed.
34
Yeah I'm with Gloria too.

Women have this same problem - they hook up with men that the world can see have major flaws, and when things don't work out, blame the guy for being a loser or an asshole. Men marry women for superficial reasons, and when things don't work out, also play the victim card.
35
Oh and here's a thought: if you are ok with porn, make a carefree reference to porn early in the dating process.

I do it and it has never resulted in me turning into a pillar of salt. It did however scare off a few guys over the years who were clearly not ok with a woman who can laugh about and enjoy porn.

If I can handle scaring off a couple of people who were sexually incompatible with me, then so can you, guys. Mention porn. Gauge her reaction. If it's bad, educate her or move on. Your lives will improve I swear.
36
#35 YES. Although, to be more specific, you might want to have a whole conversation -- lots of cool, sex-positive women can be chary about men who seem way into porn, just because so much mainstream porn can be really misogynistic. I know! We're crazy bitches! Blah blah. But if your new early-dating-process woman gives you dubious eyes when you say how much you love porn, it could be worth your while to find out if she's globally sexually fucked-up, or if she's a GGG feminist girl who's wondering right now just what your kinks are.

Dan's fond of saying that straight women have to grok that men have male sexuality. Likewise, straight men have to grok that women have female sexuality, and sometimes even female life experiences that color their feelings about sex. It's nothing that two GROWN-ASS PEOPLE shouldn't be able to handle through honestly talking about sex and what is and isn't a dealbreaker for them -- also listening and not instantly judging the other person for not agreeing with them 100%. If two people aren't sexually identical (and how often does that happen?) and neither person is going to be expected to rewire themselves sexually just to land a long-term relationship -- AND NEITHER PERSON SHOULD BE expected to do that -- then some communication is going to be in order. Might as well start early, rather than hide the issue or set out third-date porn-response litmus tests.
37
Guys who aren't happy about the amount of sex they're getting from their wives need to stop whining and start working. Single guys work for sex. They make plans. They groom. They seduce.

In my experience, many guys think marriage = non-stop-sex-party. "I have access 24/7 to a woman who will have sex with me. Giddyup." Women don't have the physical need for sex that men do (even women who love sex, want as much as they can get, don't have the same literal physical pressure guys' sex organs exert), so guys have two choices: curse the darkness or turn on a light.

Not saying there aren't frigid and/or mean-spirited women out there, just that I don't think most guys realize that marriage doesn't suddenly undo gravity, make the sun circle the earth, or turn their wives into cock-hungry sex slaves.
38
The generalization you keep making about women's natural sex-negativity, Dan, alienates the women who actually read you.
39
@37 -- I agree with your first paragraph. If one's partner has stopped putting out, it might help to consider, "What can I do to make sex better for her?" Definitely worth a try.
40
As a woman who gets a lot of male email on an adult sex site (AdultFriendFinder), I will say that many of these guys claim to be with wives who have no interest in sex. When I push a little, it turns out she has never owned a vibrator, or read Penthouse Forum letters or taken any of the baby steps that help a woman learn how to come. Guys who aren't getting enthusiastic sex from their wives should seriously consider whether their wives know how to orgasm. If I'd been faking all along, because I didn't even know what one felt like (as many women apparently don't), then, yeah, why wouldn't I stop putting out once the kids came along?

41
@40. damn. its a great dilemma. some women just dont come. not that they cant, but it can be very difficult and intimidating even for an experienced, patient man. suddenly a tremendous amount of time and research and energy gets spent on making her cum, which makes it all that much harder. Oh life can be so cruel.
42
Men are built for multiple sex partners and women are built for children. That's never going to change. No matter how many women rant and stamp their feet and threaten, it simply will never change.
43

The impression you get—if you just read my mail—is that men need sex, women don't.


This is called "selection bias." A better way of putting what you see in your mail is "When het, coupled people have a problem with incompatible sexual desire, the women tend to want less sex than the men do."

The qualifier is important, because the people who write to you are overwhelmingly people with problems. That's the selection bias. As far as your inbox knows, fewer than 10% of women may be dissatisfied with their husbands' higher sex drives, and fewer than 10% of men may be dissatisfied with their wives' lower sex drives. The people who are happy aren't writing to you for advice.

But maybe they should. Maybe Gloria, Kim, Irena, Fistique and my good friend Porn Honesty Now! should write to you "I don't have a problem, but I just wanted to brag for a while about my enormous sex drive and all the sex I have."

Another thought: it's hard for me to imagine a lot of straight guys who want less sex than their wives writing to you for advice. I think it's easier for a guy to shut down a woman's desire for sex than the other way around, because women are more sensitive to being seen as oversexed than guys are.

You probably have enough mail in your inbox to draw some seriously compelling conclusions from (similar to the way the OkCupid folks do on their blog), but you have to realize that your sample starts with people who overwhelmingly have problems. You're not hearing from what may be a silent, happy majority.
44
29: def. I love sex more than pretty much every partner I've been with. Men are generally into the frequency at first, but then get lazy later. And it's not that I don't love experimentation/wish fulfillment to please my partner.
45
@41:
While I know this doesn't apply for everybody, I'm fairly certain that making a particular women come gets easier with practice and time. I know this is just anecdotal evidence, but it took years for my spouse to make me come as easily and quickly as himself. But now, he can give me one any time I want one, and sometimes it's damn fast. I doubt even an experienced other man could do this because he doesn't know my body/mind.

@40: Yeah, and also I've heard from too many women friends about spouses/SO's who don't want to make the effort - they're only interested in sticking it in and getting themselves off. This is frustrating as hell for women so they lose interest. Sex without satisfaction becomes just work. So, yeah, there most definitely is another side to the story of women losing interest in sex after a time. Disclaimer - I don't claim this is always the case for the woman losing interest, but I know it is the case for some.
46
In all fairness to, Dan, etc. I'm a sure thing (except post surgery and when seriously ill), I find I can quickly get on board. Not that I'm not a pest, too. I think it has to do with my mind set and having a great life partner as much as my own sex drive.
47
Another sex-lovin' woman chiming in on the "Fuck that noise." My ex had plenty of sex drive, but he mocked and shamed me when I wanted it and he didn't. I came to call it the Mrs. Roeper Syndrome. (Peg Bundy Syndrome?) The woman chasing her man for sex is a pathetic joke, right? I have a much higher sex drive than my current partner. Sometimes this is a huge problem, to say the least. Guess I should go ahead and write to Dan about it just to balance his mail, although I've read him long enough I'm sure I know what he'll say. FWIW, when I opened up to a few women friends, I found I was not alone, and that there was deep shame about it. (When you find someone with a copy of "The Sex-Starved Wife" the truth is out.) Because all men want sex all the time, right?? Everyone knows that! So if he doesn't want it, there must be something terribly, terribly wrong with me.
Now I know that like a lot of cultural scripts, it just isn't true. People are different. There are a lot of men who put all their energy into their jobs, or hobbies, or kids or whatever, or have low testosterone, or never had much of a sex drive, or what the hell ever. It doesn't get the press but it happens a lot.
48
"Order the ice cream from the ice cream parlor that's been joyfully handing out free samples."

Great idea, and great way to put it, planned barrenhood!
49
"Men rule the fucking world. Western society exists to sexually stimulate you. "

That's probably the overstatement of the month, Irena.

If only this were true as described! Truth, alas, is much more nuanced, and full of loopholes to ensure male sexual unhappiness. Believe me, I've been through the "stimulating" aspects of our "male-oriented" society. There's a lot there that is totally broken.
50
@7 Problem is that women such as you are just figments of mens' collective imagination.
51
@50 overstates, but it's hard to avoid the conclusion that women who are pretty consistently interested in sex, and possessing of a high sex drive, are in far greater demand than supply. Honestly, I want to believe in the party line - "it's all just the product of socialization and shaming and blah blah blah and we'd all love it if you just let us." But I can't; it simply doesn't jibe with my collected observations over the years.

And no, I'm definitely not a guy who only seeks out the "good girls" a la @15.
52
Sadly, from personal experience I can say that sometimes you don't find out what you're getting until after you've bought it. Count me among the legion of men whose girlfriends weren't opposed to porn and put out on a regular basis before the ring went on.

I remember one time when watching porn together, shortly before we were engaged, she said "I'd rather you just fuck me." I took that to mean the porn wasn't doing it for her. She didn't say that she thought porn was bad, or objected to it. As for frequency, while by no means record setting, 3-4 times a week seemed good enough for me.

After the ring, porn became verboten, and frequency dropped to once or twice every couple of months. No more blow jobs, no more hand jobs, and no more going down on her (which I really miss). I'm not saying she's crazy, but I do think she, like many women, probably started something she couldn't and didn't have any interest in sustaining after the marriage for the sake of keeping me interested and happy. And that kinda sucks.
53
@47 said: "My ex had plenty of sex drive, but he mocked and shamed me when I wanted it and he didn't. I came to call it the Mrs. Roeper Syndrome. (Peg Bundy Syndrome?) The woman chasing her man for sex is a pathetic joke, right."

I'm a woman who has mostly dated men, and I've experienced that in about 70% of my relationships with men. And lest you think I just date Neanderthals, I will tell you that I go for guys who like a dominant woman and are pretty respectful of women in their everyday lives. The kind of guys who like that I work in a male-dominated field and enjoy cooking for me. But over time, as our relationship settled in and their drive died down, this is what kept happening. So far with my current guy, we're okay only because he hasn't shamed me too heavily. But I definitely feel frustrated a few times a week!

Regarding a porn discussion during dating, @36 said: "You might want to have a whole conversation -- lots of cool, sex-positive women can be chary about men who seem way into porn, just because so much mainstream porn can be really misogynistic."

I will admit that when I was young and naive, I was weirded out by porn. I could accept that guys needed it, but could not relate at all. The little porn that I had seen was absolutely disgusting and turned me off completely. And I didn't WANT to be threatened by it, I wanted to be a cool GGG chick - but I was threatened because I worried that my partners would want to act out the scenes they watched. I worried that maybe they really wanted sex like they saw in those movies: skinny girls that look like 12-year olds, a cum shot all over a girl's face, scenes where they continue pounding oblivious to the fact that the girl looks like she's in pain and bent at weird angles, etc.

Thank goodness I eventually had a boyfriend who really wanted to watch porn with me, and instead of pressuring me to watch the "gross" stuff, he ordered some vintage stuff, and some porn that was made by women for women. There were curvy, attractive real-looking woman, at least a tiny semblance of a plot, and enough kissing to make it look like the woman was actually turned on. THAT I got - I would fantasize about the scenes later. So I began to be less threatened by porn in general. I knew that even though Debbie Does Dallas turned me on, I had no desire to have sex with an older flabby owner of a sporting goods shop. So I realized that maybe my partners could enjoy their kind of porn in the same way, and I began to be less threatened by porn in general.

54
@49: Of course it was hyperbole, but I stand by the assertion that a strong male sex drive is accepted as natural by our culture (and even a marker of status), while a strong female sex drive is seen as morally suspect (and devalues her). Like @47, I've had too many experiences with men who see female sexuality as a joke on us, a weakness, a dirty little secret. I've been shamed for it to the point where I really police myself in certain social situations where guys get away with all kinds of stuff. Women are encouraged to express their sexuality in one major way, and that's submissively, by being looked at. Catch us doing the looking, though, and suddenly we're cougars or tramps or "desperate".

I'm not denying that men are subjected to that puritanical message of shame as well. They are. But women get it way worse. Honestly, to deny that our culture--that most cultures--have a bigger problem with female sexuality than male is disingenuous and misleading.

So, yeah. Women aren't "naturally" sex-negative. But we're strongly encouraged to be. So those of us who say a big fuck you to those slut/ho/cougar/desperate housewife/nympho stereotypes--those of us who say hey, my sexuality is mine and I think it's fucking beautiful and I intend to enjoy it--deserve to be recognized and not made to disappear by those two little words Dan uses: "women don't".
55
@53 I've had the experience of guys being downright nasty to me because I want sex more frequently than they do. Must be emasculating for them or some nonsense. I try to be appropriately progressive, but it IS really embarrassing to be sexually rejected by a man, even once, let alone repeatedly. It's even hard to talk about it with other women, because it's often met with catty smugness. ("Oh, MY boyfriend would never turn sex down." Probably because their boyfriends are the ones we hear about who are not getting any...?) Seriously, can you imagine a guy complaining to a group of his friends about how frustrated he is that his hot girlfriend wants to fuck him constantly? I think this phenomenon goes underreported for obvious reasons.The stereotype is reinforced again and again that men are the sex-starved ones, and that, as women, all we have to do is let them know we're interested and they'll spring into action. Not always the case, even for young, good-looking, GGG, well-adjusted women.

And I was also grossed out by porn at first because the boys I grew up around were mostly fascinated with finding proof of how large an inanimate object could be shoved into the human vagina and things like that, and they assumed I would be equally interested in their research. I had no idea it wasn't all like that. So I think it helps to establish if the person in question is opposed to the videotaping of any and all sexual acts or opposed to gross-ass shit.

I'm curious as to where I can find this mythical wife beast that exists only to deny sex and ruin everyone's fun. I've heard so much about them, but I've never seen one.
56
Wow! I love this comment thread. I thought I was the only one who had been shamed by my (ex-)husband and past partners for a strong sex drive. After lots of experience I can tell you that a smart slut keeps it under wraps until she can play it as it lays (so to speak). There are too many men out there who are totally freaked by robust female sexuality to let that cat wander loose.

And 32, you cannot be serious. It's our problem if you can't be bothered to seek out a partner who offers what you want? You don't need "nearly all women." You just need one.
57
I had a partner tell me he'd 'give it the old college try', if it would shut me up for a few weeks. This was just over a year into a relationship between people in their 20s, and he turned into Mr Not-This-Month-Honey-I-Have-A-Headache. But as people are saying all over this thread, it wasn't so much that he didn't want to have sex with me, but that he would make me feel as though I was being unreasonable, that my sex-drive was outlandish, and that I was terribly high-maintenance to require 'servicing', when he'd already told me that he loved me, because really, don't women just swap sex for love?
58
I wonder if any of these women who who are vehemently anti-porn and anti-sex are the fabled Bridezilla types from TV? Because I sure can't figure out what makes men marry those useless excuses for skin (one of them actually said she doesn't like to be touched by anyone, not even her fiance) - I'm just curious...
59
@41, "suddenly a tremendous amount of time and research and energy gets spent on making her cum, which makes it all that much harder. Oh life can be so cruel"
WTF?!!! If you're too selfish to want to put in the kind of time it takes to help her get there, then leave her alone (ALONE, ie, get the kids out of the house), for a couple of hours every Friday night until she can figure it out. Jeezus. It took me a month of working on it in college before I knew how to combine sensation and fantasy in order to come. How can men complain that women don't want sex enough, and then also not be interested in helping them figure out how to come???!!!

@ 52, "After the ring, porn became verboten, and frequency dropped to once or twice every couple of months."
Yeah, and how often is she coming? Do you have any idea? Have you had any conversations about orgasm with her? Do you know how she masturbates, or if she masturbates? This is my point. Men can see what's happening (she has no interest in sex), but seem completely uninterested in the solution (figure out how she can learn to have orgasms more easily -- or at all, if she has never had them).

This makes me so sad.

60
@32: As I pointed out, a lot of these women -- the ones who make porn a huge dramatic deal or a thought crime, who hinge their relationship/marriage on it, and NOT the ones who just don't find it their thing, etc. -- can't be reasoned with. They just can't. You've tried; they refuse to listen, refuse to change (which *doesn't* change the fact they're more often than not completely wrong), refuse to compromise.

At that moment when a man realizes that, it does become his problem because he's the one left with the power to push some change. The options usually are clear: Either she changes and accepts your porn habit, or he changes and accepts he's going to have to lie for the rest of his life or give up porn. And remember Point #1, where she isn't going to change? Yeah.

So you could break up. You're better off alone than lingering in a relationship that's going to earn you a lifetime of misery. At least you can jerk off in peace.

If her cooking, her good looks, or her general wifeyness means a lot to you, enough to make you endure her emotional blackmail, then well, we've covered that too. Stay and shut up. We trade things off in all relationships. Some things we do less willingly than others, but they're choices.

And honestly? Talking about these things -- before marriage or some big commitment step -- is a really good practise for everyone of either sex. Money, sex, porn, children, etc.

Oh, did she lie to you? Well, she's totally fucking wrong to have done so, but that doesn't mean you're free of all responsibility to tell her so and then leave her lying ass (barring other greater responsibilities like children). What? You'd rather just stay with her and be a whinging martyr about it, and then accuse people of "blaming" men? Yeah, good job.
61
@59... got it. i think the point i was saying is that im willing to do whatever it takes, including leaving her alone. im talking about being selfless.
62
@61: Even is she can have have an orgasm alone, it'll then take time for her to transfer that knowledge to you. Patience, practice and good observation skills are the key.

Unlike Erica, I've been easily able to have orgasms since way before I knew what they were called, way before I even knew what sex was. I thought this was the usual case for women, but now I'm thinking maybe I was unusual?

Still, it took quite a while for me to be able to effectively communicate how to do this to my spouse. Not his fault, but mine since I really don't know how to describe all the subtleties of touch and sensation. He got it mostly from feedback from my body language. And he got it good - he can give them better to me than I can myself. It probably helps that he finds a woman having an orgasm to be really really hot. The mind definitely plays a part.

63
@62 hear ya. actually i think the mind is sort of the biggest part... getting to that point is where its at. patience patience....
64
@63, that sounds tough. But the responsibility shouldn't be all yours; she's got to learn how to make herself come. I would probably never have an orgasm (outside of oral sex) if I didn't literally give him a hand when we're doing it. If she can do it on her own, she can do it with you. Work on the trust, and give it time... and give her permission to be selfish. She should be doing it for herself, not for you. (But of course, you'll benefit!)
65
I am sick to death of the implication that women don't want it too.

Dan's better about this than most ... but still. It's harder for us to skate the line because of social convention. I want to come across as a "lady," a "nice girl," not some kind of loser skank -- but the usual consequence is winding up with guys with less interest in sex or a more milquetoast style. How do you confess -- to romantic interests, even to friends -- that you're a woman who likes sex a lot? How do you do that without losing everybody's respect? It's a tough problem.

Guys at least are playing a conventional role when they hound their wives for sex. That's no picnic either, but it's a little easier.
66
1a. No offense to all of the sex-loving women on this thread, but there's a major difference between you and the majority of the women on this planet: You're avid fans of a monogamy-neutral (at best) gay man who posts kinky sex advice on a website with a major pro-kink bias. There's a reason why Loveschild's activity on this site is so egregious, and it isn't due to her lame AV.

1b. Once again, this is a pro-kink *website*, as in World Wide Web. Only the baby Jesus knows how many sweaty-palmed non-kinky people discovered this site through relatively innocuous means (like, say, trying to find a Seattle-based paper to read in preparation for a visit?) A dozen women chanting about their love of cock isn't even a drop of ink in the ocean of women who (for whatever reason) gave up on sex as soon as Kid #3 pushed it's way through her legs. I've read this site from half of Europe, Afghanistan, Egypt and almost every sub-section of America farther east than San Antonio. There's no limit to the amount of sexually frustrated husbands and sex-nervous/wary/jaded wives that dot the Midwestern American landscape, never mind the rest of the world.

2. Yes, most of the men who want wives who enjoy sex are failures. Then, there are plenty of men who met women who believe that sex has to be special. For every ten men online talking about their "frigid" wives, there's one guy who's married to a woman who rations the pussy. if you think it's annoying to be involved with a person who's given up on sex, imagine the untrammeled joy of being involved with a person who's able to squirt with joy or fuck five times a night, but who's *also* too much of a control freak/religious zealot/jerk to let themselves do so. It's one thing to be greeted by flannel and perennially dry bedsheets, it's another to be greeted with flannel and the memory of that time you made your SO come like a faucet while you sang "Ava Maria" into his or her asshole and twiddled the twiddly bits. Cheating on your wife because she hates sex is wrong, cheating on your wife because she enjoys sex in sporadic bursts but refuses to let go more than twice a year is just sad. "Feast or famine", guys, feast or famine. That's no way to live. There's nothing sadder than fucking in the New Year with an attractive (or available, take your pick) woman, turning over onto the wet spot with a post-coital cigarette and hearing those five words, "That'll hold me until Easter."

Bottom line: men need to knuckle up and women need to loosen up. The ring should be the *start* of hot sex, not it's death knell.
67
Irena, Gloria, Greenest and all the rest: you are fucking awesome, intelligent women. Keep posting and keep being your badass selves. Less assertive women - who are equally sexed up and pissed off at the double standard (such as lil ole me) find you INSPIRING AS HELL. Reading your comments is even better than Dan's column.
Thanks :)
68
@66, are you saying that there are lots of women who have spectacular, mindblowing orgasms and only want that twice a year? I don't believe it.

But taking your claim at face value, ask your wife/girlfriend whether she likes her squirting orgasms as much as you think. I've squirted a handful of times in my life, but each time (until recently) was scary. Recently, I did have a non-scary one, and I'm working towards figuring out how that happened. But I'm wary, because if they become the scary, uncontrollable ones, I don't want that. Regular orgasms are fine with me, compared with the scary ones. If your wife finds her squirty orgasms unpleasant, the two of you might try to figure out if there's another way she can come that she likes better. And the process might be more fun than wallowing in bitterness at her denial of your needs, and her own.

Also, about your point #2, I do not think husbands of these "frigid" wives should focus on giving their wives orgasms. Too much pressure. Instead, I think the men should get out of the way, and encourage their women to figure out (alone in a room with a vibrator and some choice of erotica) how they come.
69
Bros, are our collective imaginations flaring like crazy or what? Whew, I need a rest.
70
Oh, it's not that there aren't frigid or repressed women. There are a lot of them. I suspect there are more of them than there are men like that. My closest friends are churchy, prudish types -- wonderful people, but it was often stressful because there was a divide between us. I'm not saying the phenomenon doesn't exist. But focusing on the frigid-woman issue and not bringing up the horny-woman issue really short-changes us. We got problems too.

I do suggest a little sympathy for wives who aren't into sex. A few things that never seem to be mentioned:

"Honey, I'm tired" can actually mean "Honey, I'm tired." Different people need different amounts of sleep, and sometimes the woman has to get up earlier than the man. Try having sex at some time other than the middle of the night!

Related: women can be busy. Especially if they have children. It doesn't have to be a three-hour affair every time.

If sex doesn't work for her at all, she probably needs help learning to enjoy it. You may have to play teacher.

Sex hurts, it gives you a crick in the neck, and it makes a mess. A blowjob can be more convenient. An offer to do the laundry for her can also be convenient.

Nothing is fun when you're constantly nagged to do it. Once you develop a dynamic of "Husband begs for sex, wife reluctantly agrees" the wife is going to start thinking of sex as "that chore he always makes me do."

What I'm saying is, if you put yourself in her place, there may be understandable reasons why sex is inconvenient for her. That said, I really can't stand women who have bought into the idea that sex is bad, or an unfortunate foible of men. Guys who like sex: do not marry those girls! Marry us!
71
Late to the party, as usual, but thoughts:

Completely agree with Irena: As someone who was raised in a very open household in a very liberal city, and moved for a few of my early teen years to a very conservative town, I can definitely agree with the "shaming" that goes on if you are open about your sexuality. Even through college, guys I dated who were more than happy to do things on their terms made subtle comments that this was okay for guys, but inappropriate for girls. This relates to a much earlier comment thread (hi Erica P!) where we were talking about the transformation that women go through after marriage/kids, and how I think the whole "virgin/whore" thing comes into play with men: A lot of men subtly convey a desire for a woman with a "good girl" face to show the world (proper mummy, wife, hostess), who plays the "whore" in the bedroom. Big surprise that most women don't have these multiple personalities. Women also, I think, take in the messages our culture produces about good girls and bad girls, and slowly morph into what they think are "good girl" attributes, which leave very little room for encouraging their own sexuality.

@Approaching 40 in LA: Why am I now envisioning you furiously trying to start an online "support" group for us over-sexed Slog women?? ;)
72
Exchanges like this one just depress me. I haven't had sex in two days. I looked at porn last night and got myself off--TWICE--partially because I knew my boyfriend wouldn't be doing the honors when he got home. And it's entirely likely he'll gladly forgo the honors again tonight unless I press. And did I mention I'm a woman? Whenever I read letter after letter about how men want it daily and damn those women for not giving it to us, I want to cry.

Which brings me to something he said the other day while discussing the prevalence of porn-averse letters in this column, which we both find laughable. His advice? Put your man on Prozac. Then he won't have the sexual energy to look at porn. Ipso facto the problem discussed in the previous paragraph as well.
73
@72 and others... maybe i missed this being mentioned but it seems to me often sex drive is reversed. with a new girl a guy wants to fuck all the time, until it becomes familiar, then a couple times a week is enough, though he may (i may) want to jerk off at porn more often. its the mental thing for me. getting turned on, and familiarity is actually a turn-off. not to say two people cant keep shit exciting. and the inverse is that i think (am i wrong?) for alot of women the more comfortable and familiar they are with a man (and he understands them) the more they want it.
alot of times your man will fuck you but mentally its too much work (is that how it is for ladies at the start of a relationship?). and that is also related to guys fearing going soft. i cannot recommend boner pills enough for this. they rule, it takes all the pressure off your man and he will fuck you if you want it and even if hes only sort-of into it. as long as his tool is working no prob, and you dont need him to be a total jackhammering athlete every time, you'll still get it. and then there are the alternative activities, of which you just have to turn him on with a little foreplay....
74
@73: That sounds like the old saw. "men learn to love the women they desire; women learn to desire the men they love". It's not true. We are much more similar than that. Most new couples fuck a lot: men have no problems getting it up, and women have no problem getting wet. But eventually, the flames die down for both, which is where the need for variety (porn, toys, new positions, maybe even opening up the relationship) comes in. And yeah, some young women can be sexually inhibited, but not all of them are.

But in general, as long as they're still sexually active, most women do get more sexually confident as they get older. They stop worrying about how they look or whether they're pleasing him and just please themselves (which, in my experience, pleases him a lot more!). But if they stop seeing themselves as sexual creatures -- because of kids, work, a boring sex life, whatever -- well, they shut down sexually. But, contrary to popular notions, this happens to a lot of men, too! Which is what so many women on this thread are trying to get across. The stereotype that "men want sex but women don't" is way too simplistic to describe what's actually going on.

That said, I'm sure it's more common for women to give up on sex, but there are reasons -- we're not just "wired" that way (if it were a defining biological trait, there wouldn't be so many women on this thread complaining that they don't get enough!). For one thing, it's easy for a woman to foreclose on sex and still feel like a "woman", because womanhood in our society is in many ways defined in opposition to being sexual; especially as you age, womanhood is tied to motherhood and sex is viewed as self-indulgent, and even kind of embarrassing. Honestly, how often do you see movies, ads, TV shows where older women or mothers are depicted as sexual creatures in a positive way? Women are considered past their sexual prime long before men are.

Whereas for men, sexuality is tied to virility and manhood; being sexually voracious isn't a threat to masculinity, it practically defines it. So in movies, the older guys still get the girl, even though in reality there are a lot of older guys who can't get it up anymore -- or don't want to.

Anyway, I've probably said too much already, but what it comes down to is that a good sex life takes a lot of effort that can really pay off, but for some people the payoff is not worth the effort. A lot of those people are women, but plenty of them are men, too. Some guys would rather just watch sports. And maybe jerk off to porn. Or maybe not.
75
@73 I think those kinds of specifics vary for everyone. In my particular case, a lot of my bf's lowered interest is due, as I said, to the Prozac. He's not really looking at porn and masturbating, either. I know this and believe this because we talk about it, and he's open about his habits in that area. Hell, he's as frustrated with it at times as I am. That said, I've never met a man who could match me sexually--and, previous to my current bf, I've never had a relationship last longer than 6 months! So I'm guessing lack of novelty wasn't really the issue in any of those situations. Sooooo many factors go into how often people want to have sex with a partner! Sometimes if you don't talk to your partner enough, they don't want to have sex with you. Sometimes if they're mad about that thing you did earlier, they don't want to have sex with you. Sometimes if they're tired, stressed, depressed...I think we can all see where this is going.

I think when it comes to our cultural understanding of sexual desire, men make a big fuss about how they want sex ALL THE TIME when they're in relationships with women who only want to give it up once or twice a month, thereby making them THINK they want it all the time because they never get it. Then, when they have the chance to get it ALL THE TIME because they're dating some freaky lady like me, they don't really want it ALL THE TIME. It's just proof that we are more alike than we will admit and the extremes within each gender (which get the most attention because the squeaky wheel gets the grease) are skewing the sample. On the frigid to fuck-anything-with-a-pulse scale, women probably tend more toward the frigid on average and men the other way. But I'd venture to say that the majority of men and women sit near the middle and want sex with roughly the same frequency.
76
@71 Canuck, pretty good one there.

I'm not trying to upset anyone, or to be condescending or dismissive, but the married guys out there (30+ years) will generally say that this is one of those "she just doesn't get it" topics (women don't have a monopoly on that catch phrase).

Back before marriage and the kids, we would do it 10 times a week...ahh the good old days.
Today, my sex life is OK (about twice a week, I give her 3-4 orgasms for every one she gives me), but nothing special. From my perspective, she's providing me with maintenance sex. Once per week, and I get frustrated and antsy...seriously frustrated and antsy. Less than that, and I'd be out the door within a year. What would I like? Every day. What would I be happy with? 3-4 times a week. I'm probably in a pretty normal situation for a married guy going on 40.

Now, I feel badly for the guys out there who are getting sex a couple times a month or less. I can't imagine how they connect with their wives. I know that I would be out the door (despite having two young kids) if that were my situation. Those are the truly frustrated guys, and I can sympathize with them (not empathize though, since they will say I'm the lucky asshole). Thing is, I AM the lucky asshole compared to them, and I understand their situations.

You (somewhat older than average SLOG readers) highly-sexed women out there: tell your partners they're lucky slobs and slap 'em a few times for me if they ever piss you off...
77
@76 I tell him that ALL the time...! Seriously, I think part of the problem is that things become rote, and yes, "maintenance" sex isn't going to make most men happy long term. There's a big difference between "laying back and thinking of England" and really getting into it, regardless of frequency. The bummer? In my humble, limited experience, when I wasn't "into it", say, when the kids were little and exhausting me, S.O. put tons of effort into it. Now, it's like, "You're on board? Great! Away we go!" And, dang, let's just say a little "Sergio Ramos" endurance would be appreciated! But, that's why God made batteries, right??
78
@76 What's funny is that studies have shown that over the course of a lifetime, married men have more sex than single men.

And, believe me, my boyfriend is extremely happy to have a highly-sexed girlfriend, even if he doesn't have the libido to take full advantage. In a cruel twist of fate, before the Prozac he was sex crazy, and a lack of sex was a problem for him in previous relationships. Now he's finally found the big prize, and he only wants it about 3 times a week. Why is God so mean?
79
Approaching40 @76 - talk to her! You sound right on the edge of doing something destructive like having an affair. Not to say you're looking, but it's important to acknowledge one's burning needs. If you feel you're just having "maintenance sex," talk to her. Find out her fantasies, tell her some of yours. What does she think is going on? My husband and I were in a rut, but I didn't know it - I thought we were fine since we were having sex once a week and seemed to be getting along fine. But then he went outside the marriage, and took his own sweet time to tell me about it. We're okay now (and have opened up to sex with other people), but the pain of finding out that he was lying to me for six months was really hard to get over (and hits me, still, at odd times). You don't sound like you want this to continue "till death do you part," so tell her what you're feeling and find some way of changing things up. This book was invaluable for me, and may be helpful to one or both of you: Passionate Marriage: Sex, Love, and Intimacy in Emotionally Committed Relationships , by David Schnarch.
80
EricaP @ 79 Thanks for the concern and encouragement, but I would definitely never have an affair. Certainly didn't want to come off sounding that way. Perhaps my term "maintenance sex" is what threw you since it sounds kind of unloving. But I'm calling it that simply because I suppose the average married guy my age feels the sexual frustration keenly if he's not getting enough to keep him truly satisfied, but is OK with his current situation. That is, we would be happy and content with 3-4 times a week, but are only getting it a couple of times a week. That difference in frequency is probably the source of all the stereotypical male complaints.

A year or two ago, when we were averaging once a week I was getting to the point of feeling how a man could rationalize an affair. I wouldn't do that, but I I could really feel the frustration. I don't think women have any notion of how testosterone screws guys up.

Maybe once a week is some kind of approximate minimal frequency that the typical married guy needs before he gets stupid...? I dunno. I do remember reading in some poll somewhere that Americans only average about once a week. Pretty scary that.
81
@80 You didn't ask, but my advice would be erotica for your wife. Don't know if she'd be into that, but where men are visual, I think for (some) women, reading is the ultimate turn-on. Emma Holly, Lora Leigh, Sherrilyn Kenyon, Karen Marie Moning, Lust by Violet Blue.....It's definitely a "head game" for women, they really need to start thinking and fantasizing about sex daily, rather than seeing it as the last thing to be ticked off the list at the end of the day. IMHO.
82
@Approaching 40: Do you guys have kids? Does she work outside the home? How are the household chores split? 3-4 times a week may be all she can manage, energy-wise, on top of all the other responsibilities she has...

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