SL Letter of the Day: Almost Sorry

Comments

1
well-written
2
Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of a savior.


How about looking in a mirror and taking responsibility for your own actions.
3
Applause!
4
Three typos in your post, Dan. Otherwise, right on. The difference between legal and "sanctified" marriage can't be over-emphasized.
5
Very nicely said.
6
One of the best things that you have ever written, Dan. I am at a loss for words.

Thank you.
7
I agree with you about the most vocal of Christians, but let me make a point about a few denominations in the Protestant faith - the United Church of Christ (UCC), Disciples of Christ (DOC), and the Unitarians (sometimes called Unitarian Universalists). I am a member of the UCC, and some on the right do claim we are not Christians, simply because we believe in social justice, as Christ compels us to do. And we fully endorse gay marriage, we ordain gay clergy (I know several personally). So while the majority of Christians are bigoted, there are a few of us good ones out there who fully support the GLBTQ community out there.
8
" I have never in my life know someone who loved the Lord who wished ill will on other people and certainly not death "so that [we] can perpetuate [our own] agenda".
as a black gay person of faith..i have personally encountered and known people who feel otherwise and for that that reason alone..and by evangelicals and fundamnetalists who seek to advance their agenda of soul winning and saving. i've been victimized by shame and condemnation from evangelicals, personally and sexually abused by clergy, despised by people who 'love the sinner and hate the sin '.that i've managed to maintain and exercise my own faith is fairly miraculous considering this. on this one point ( the subject of this post) i think that if fellow christians can not step forward and advocate the rights of these kids, and adult people like them.. these people they claim to love even while they disagree with them.. then i will continue to join the chorus of dan and others who say fuck your feelings...suck it up listen, learn, and do better.
yours ( sincerely ) in christ,
riz
9
Go Dan .... I was in love after "fuck your feelings"
10
I bet L. R. thinks sunshine erupts from his over-saccharine ass.
11
way to go Dan - as a child of southern Baptists, the hateful things i was taught at church were far more damaging to my own young gay psyche than any bullying i received at school
12
Wow, Dan. That was well said.

I think I've commented here enough that you know I am a follower of Christ (I almost hate to use the term "Christian" anymore because of the connotation it has gained). I support same sex marriage, and I abhor discrimination, violence, and bullying in whatever form it takes.

I don't understand how people who read the same book I read can reach very different conclusions than the ones I reach. In the Gospels, neither the writers, nor Jesus, nor any of the other characters make any mention of homosexuality. Granted, there are several mentions in the writings attributed to Paul and Timothy, but some of those writings also espouse women keeping their heads covered when they worship and celibacy. Very few groups follow those commands, yet they insist that the language about homosexuality be obeyed to the letter.

The way I figure it, the God I know, the God who is infinitely loving, who gives second chances whenever I screw up (and God knows I screw up a lot), who insipires me to want to live my life in love for everyone, isn't going to deny someone the chance to find a partner, to find the love of their life, and spend many happy years together. The God of Love isn't going to say that love is meant for everyone but 10% or so of the population.

So, I'll go on believing in God, because I can't not believe. I'll go on trying to be welcoming to everyone, trying to love everyone. And I'll go on speaking out when others who call themselves Christians say hateful things about "the other," whether that means people of a differnet race, creed, ethnicity, or sexual orientation. That's What Jesus Would Do (to paraphrase every piece of religious kitsch made in the 90's.).
13
Thank you so much, Dan. I have no problems with religion so long as people don't use them to condemn others. Hammer through the religious bullshit.
14
Outta the park!

P.S. Matthew Morrison says he uses Lubriderm for hair product. I am not lying.
15
way to go Dan - as a child of Southern Baptists, the hate i was taught at church was far more damaging to my young, gay psyche than any bullying at school
16
TL;DR

LR, kill yourself.
17
Thank you so much, Dan. I have no problems with religion so long as people don't use it to condemn others. What a selfish thing to do. Just keep hammering through the religious bullshit.
18
DS, You've started a groundswell this week, and have done more to alleviate suffering than most people do in a lifetime. Good work, Weepy.
19
Dan thinks homosexual behavior is peachy keen.
Also adultery.
And premarital sex.
And having children outside marriage.
All peachy keen.
Despite the FACT that all carry high social costs.
Misery.
Suffering.
Unhappiness.
Broken lives and unfulfilled dreams.
Dan desperately wants to believe that if everyone would just embrace
the deviancy and perversion like he does
it would make all the bad effects go away.
*poof!*
no more AIDS.
no more suicide.
no more homosexual domestic abuse.
no more ChickenHawks exploiting young boys.
Camelot.
Or rather, Gommorah.

EMBRACE IT!

In Dan's world people who refuse to embrace
irresponsible dangerous sexual behavior are BIGOTS.
THEY are the problem.

Danny-
What is the suicide rate among homosexual adult men in homofriendly San Francisco?
The AIDS rate?
If all the "Christians" in the world disappeared tomorrow your world would be the same.
Homosexuality would still be a soul sucking emotional dead end.
STDs, old familiar ones and yet to be discovered terrors you can't imagine,
still an inescapable omnipresent fact of homosexual life.
Emotional and medical suffering are the INEVITABLE consequences of deviant behavior.

Actually, your world wouldn't be quite the same if Christians disappeared-
you would either have to face the truth or find a new scapegoat.

It is so much easier to blame Someone Else.

20
Fuck your feelings, and fuck faith. Faith is the deliberate and willful suspension of critical thinking; the time is long past to stop affording people undeserved respect or deference based on their ridiculous, willfully ignorant superstitions.
21
It's illogical to hate a group of people who (a) can't change what they are and (b) are hurting *no one*. It might very well be logical to hate a group of people who *choose* to believe in an irrational set of principles that they use to justify denying others their rights. I'm *allowed* to dislike people for their beliefs if those beliefs are batshit crazy, and they band together to deny others their rights.

Faith doesn't get a pass. "It's my religion" doesn't justify bigotry.
22
I hate the stupidity of the claim that we shouldn't judge people based on their faith. Of course we can judge people's opinions and beliefs, which are a result of thought, and choice, unlike race, sex, gender, and sexuality. Truth isn't subjective, and we should be allowed to voice our disagreement or disapproval of other's opinions, be they faith-based or not.

A person's professed faith tells me definite things about their beliefs and world-view, whereas race, etc. don't. They're not the same thing.
23
I can see this writer's advice to her (?) children."Don't bully the gay kids. They're going to Hell anyway."
24
@...19..
oh and fuck you too..
yours in christ,
riz
25
Hear, hear
26
Bravo Dan! As usual, you got it right. I blame Christians in my blog: http://asacynicseesit.blogspot.com/
27
What the hell are you doing to put you in the position of desperately needing a saviour?
28
You're out of luck, LR. You're guilty. You have two choices A) recognize that by supporting discrimination you condone abuse by maintaining that a segment of our population is unworthy and second class, or B) go take your "persecuted" feelings somewhere else. The truth hurts. There is only one moral and ethical response to discrimination and that is to denounce it. You will never be justified by claiming that your "faith" permits you to discriminate. Any person who supports discrimination and unequal civil equality is a bully. You're a bully, L.R. Perhaps, you're a tender hearted one, but on your present path you're a bully. And, there is no way of saying that nicely. I'm ashamed to be associated with you and I pity you for your present state.
29
When you are on Dan, you are ON. At the risk of 5280 calling me a brown-noser again (sticks and stones, buddy), my old English major soul is remembering the following:
"What oft was thought but ne'er so well expressed"
30
As long as both sides of this gay marriage debate continue to yell AT each other & spew venom AT each other like you're doing here (one side says it's a civil right, the other side says it's a re-definition of a word, and BOTH sides continue to tell each other to go fuck themselves), NOBODY wins. Hate begets hate.

...Oh, but wait, weren't you all calling for Dan Savage to be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his video project? Riiiight.... A man of peace. Suuuuuch peace.
31
@30: The funniest aspect of your commentary here on Slog is that you actually take yourself seriously while begging an invisible and unsustainable "middle ground" that only the dimmest of wits would ever believe existed.
32
@39..
this isn't a debate about marriage . it's a conversation arising from the fact that people are dying, children mostly, from hatred and abuse.
stay on topic fucker.
33
not #39 .. i meant confluence @30
34
As I have been told by so many well meaning Christians trying to save my atheist soul "God is love". If that were true, that God and Jesus really are all about love, why would they condemn adults who love each other just because the genitals they have happen to be the same? It makes no sense to me that a loving God could condemn anyone to eternal torture for loving the wrong person but welcome into paradise a serial killer who made a death bed conversion.
35
#34: god is hate. Have you learned nothing from the Phelpses?
36
Go Dan!
37
@21 & 22: Amen to that.
38
@30 - and your advice is to turn the other cheek, I assume?

That response didn't sound hateful to me, aside from the "Fuck your feelings" part. Is he not allowed to explain to the woman (man? - it's so hard to tell with Christians) how she is setting a bad example for her children, and the consequences therein?
39
In simple terms (and it's been said many, many times before), faith is a choice, sexual "preference" is not. Invading a person's privacy for your own perverted enjoyment, telling other people how to live their lives, and condemning them when they don't obey; these are choices, and they are choices that oppress and hurt other people. I've never heard a gay person tell a christian to stop practicing their religion, but I've heard plenty of christians tell others how to behave. Go and practice Matthew 7: 1-5.
40
You don't have to support gay marriage any more than you have to support civil rights or women's rights. As a female mother in a bi-racial marriage, I get to see and experience discrimination regularly from all fronts. The great thing about America is that you can believe whatever you want, no matter how bigoted, hypocritcal, fantastic, or criminally wrong. However, you CANNOT infringe upon the rights of others, and until there is legislation in place maintaining the rights of the gay community as FULL CITIZENS of the USA, including the right to marry and to protected status, then we will scream back.

Not taking pleasure in someone's death or discrimination does not mean that your very belief systems and actions didn't participate in the culture that caused it. Should you choose to believe that being gay is a sin and that gay marriage is disturbing the sacrosanct institution of heterosexual marriage, then don't engage in it. But don't fool yourself into believing that your way is the only way, and then interfere with how others are living their life. It is unfortunate that those with the loudest voices, are also the ones who want to interfere with everyone unlike them the most. The Christian agenda is loud and clear - and currently, it's driving teenage children to suicide. This isn't just about bullying, it is about the entire dialogue we surround our youth with. And to make anyone feel unwanted, unloved, and unnecessary just for being who they are is a crime in itself. What would Jesus do with this situation? Not this.
41
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -- Steven Weinberg
42
Dan. Thanks so much for all the work you've been doing.
43
I am a recovering Catholic, and I work at a Jesuit college in San Francisco. The social justice message is strong here, with big support for gay rights (which you might expect from San Francisco, but don't be fooled: there's as many bigots as gays and lesbians in this city).

What I appreciate is that for many folks here, rights of gays and lesbians are important BECAUSE of their religious beliefs and not despite them. There's no real reason why Catholicism at large can't be like the Jesuits. Except maybe for that Pope guy. No wonder after 6 years working here and appreciating the mission and values of the school, I still haven't come close to going back to mass.
44
Thank you, Dan.

L.R. You do not get to work to deny people the same civil rights that you enjoy and then whine when those same people and their supporters tell you how much that hurts and how destructive.

Lest you think I'm a hypocrite, I am similarly intolerant of those who would deny civil rights to women, people of color and so on.

Finally, that you would undertake the work of oppression in Jesus name makes you all the more pathetic in my eyes. Did that hurt your feelings? Too damn bad.
45
Until both sides stop taking shots at each other and protect and teach our children to respect the rights, beliefs and simple humanness of each other we aren't going to stop this mess. I'm sick and tired of hearing about "those horrible Christians" (which is NOT what Dan said in this post) and "the subversive gay agenda." Kids are dying because they bully because that is what is modeled for them by the adults in their lives who name call and bully each other--Christians and SLOG commentators alike. Dan's project is making a positive difference. How else are we going to step up?

http://www.pacerteensagainstbullying.org… and http://www.tolerance.org/activity/bullyi… are great places to start.
46
The religious have plenty of rights @tired #45. But giving the religious respect or deference because of the faith-based, frankly idiotic fictions they claim to believe in is exactly what we should NOT do.
47
Dan's strong feelings are understandable, but I find this over the top. I didn't see anywhere where the writer said it's a sin to be gay, only that he/she doesn't support gay marriage. Though I *do* support gay marriage and am agnostic, I'm sure there are decent and thoughtful Christians who just need a little education rather than vicious condemnation, and being lumped together with the Christianist bigots who give Christianity a bad name.
48
I'm sensing a lot of anger in your voice, Dan.

49
So the letter read aloud by Beth on the following page made me all teary-eyed, in a good way: a mother writing in that Dan's interview led her to tell her teenage son she'd support him no matter his sexual orientation. It turns out he in fact was gay and was being bullied.

http://www.kez999.com/pages/bethandfrien…
50
@34: Jesus absolutely does not condemn gay people. He does have a LOT of angry words for legalistic religious leaders (who condemned him, for example, for healing on the Sabbath, which is supposed to be a day of rest). What Sheryl @12 said. It would be better to call these gay-haters "Christianists" (as Andrew Sullivan does) or "Pharisees" (well meaning, but short-sighted legalistic religious sticklers). They have their eye on the minor violations ("She had shrimp for dinner!" when it may have been the only thing she had to eat) and ignore the larger message: "Love the Lord with all your strength, and heart, and mind, and your neighbor as yourself." The true Christian is a humble person of love who prays alone, and shows her love for Christ by feeding, clothing and housing the hungry, naked and poor and consoling the outcast and the imprisoned.
51
"Until both sides stop taking shots at each other ..."

Both sides? We're just defending ourselves. If Christians embraced gays and lesbians as a legitimate part of the human family, this discussion would be over.

52
"I'm sensing a lot of anger in your voice, Dan."

Is that sarcasm?
53
@52, 48 is snarking on the Anderson Cooper interview with the weirdly twisted Asst. Attorney General guy from Michigan. (In case your question was, itself, not sarcasm)
54
Hey L.R., INCOMING!

I hope you're feeling better after this Dan. I'm not even sick and I feel better. And FYI, there isn't so much as a hint of anything super extra sucky about this.

55
"I have never in my life know[n] someone who loved the Lord who wished ill will on other people... so that we can perpetuate our own agenda"

Now see, that, right there, is a lie.

And, how exactly is Dan hypocritical?
56
I am with you Dan. The letter writer is clearly an idiot.
57
"magic sky friend"...hilarious. Made me laugh out loud, for which I am grateful.

I don't know how many more of these suicides I can take. The anger I hold that everyone isn't fucking screaming in the streets about this makes my chest hurt. It's like a horror show that people don't even recognize.
58
@19

So we should look to religion for help with our sexual crises?

The Catholic Church and a number of other Christian organizations are actively campaigning against condom use in Africa. Are actively trying to keep comprehensive sex education out of American schools. Are Actively trying to criminalize miscarriages. Some were even actively pushing a bill that would condemn homosexuals to death in Uganda (I'm talking about American Christians).

Dan argues for sexual honesty (to others and to yourself), and being safe and mature, so that people have healthier, more satisfactory (sex) lives, rather than restricting your sexuality with outdated and, frankly, useless social stigmas that do nothing but make people feel guilty for doing the things that should make them feel ecstatic.

You are living in a dream world, a shitty one. And I don't envy you for it. But stop spreading your misery and repression around, because you're not saving anyone with it.
59
@53 I guess too subtle a joke. I just can't get that interview out of my head. Especially since Anderson was showing no anger whatsoever.
60
When will it end?!?!?!

Tragically another gay youth has taken his life: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/01…
61
Came off really anti-religion. I'm not (mostly) I just don't like it being used in such hateful and debilitating ways.
62
I'm late to this thread, but god damn. That is some righteous f*cking wrath coming from Dan. Someone from the networks give him some air time NOW. We need some un-f*ucking-apologetic fire-breathing straight talk on this issue and we need it badly. It's time for another Cooper/Savage/Perkins throwdown, and I want to see that motherfucker Perkins exposed as the psychotic closeted self-hating freak that he is. Dan, call CNN!

Ahem. And, um, well-written post, Mr. Savage. Carry on.
63
Dead on Dan. Sometimes I think the nicest-sounding bigots do the most damage.

"Oh what a sweet girl you are. Too bad you're going to burn in hell for all eternity because you are an unrepentant sinner who commits acts against god and is worthless to society, but I love you anyway. Want a cookie?"
64
A further note to "L.R."

All of us homos, or at least the very great vast majority of us, are products of heterosexual partnerships. I'm going to go out on a limb and say not just partnerships, but marriages. I was. I had a mom and a dad, married in a church wedding many years before I was born. I was raised in a very religious family - church every week, youth group, retreats, VBS. So for me your shtick of "I love the Lord but am against gay marriage" falls really fucking flat. You know why? Because my parents, and my many religious family members, also love the Lord - but they are fully supportive of civil marriage rights for gay couples - including my and my husband's marriage. I feel very, very fortunate to be surrounded by family that support me without the qualifications or judgment that you apparently have.

BTW your 'love the sinner hate the sin' thing is really, really tired. We've heard it all before, and I'm gonna guess that many of us are here to tell you take that and well, shove it. Too many 'followers of Christ' are out there abusing gay people because of their faith. If you have the guts, stand up to your Christian brethren. Abandon your prejudice, and live like Christ would have - have the courage to stick up for those who can't defend themselves, without your duplicitous cowardice. Kids are dying - if you're really a Christian, put the suffering ahead of yourself and try to do something about it. That's what I was taught at church.
65
I have heard the anguish in my friends voices in high school when they were getting gay bashed (1977-1981 for me), I have cried myself to sleep with bruises on my back, face and hands. I have felt the anguish of my insides hurting after being raped by two boys. I have felt small, helpless worthless.

I have been told I am going to hell by the very priests of the Catholic Church I belonged to, in confession about my rape, and my confessions of my orientation. I have seen one courageous priest help me and then leave the priesthood out of despair.

Think of the bigotry, the hate, and the misery we are put through by "well meaning" and God fearing christians.

I grew up, I lived...and living well is the best revenge. But, damn you and your ilk for setting a shitty example, for using the message of faith in an evil, twisted way. Fuck the Fred Phelpses of this world. the Jim Dobsons; fuck them slowly with a chainsaw.

Get on your knees and beg for forgiveness from your lord and saviour, because I will be damned if I forgive any of you sick fucks for the sheer hell you put gays and lesbians through.

After all of the suicides of gay kids, I am not in a particularly forgiving or favorable mood.

66
Dan, you summed up everything I was thinking in the second paragraph of your reply. Your entire response should be broadcast on every television network in the world as a Public Service Announcement!
67
A fucking men, Dan.

I've been reading your columns for years for precisely this reason. It's not our job, as GLBT people, to mollycoddle and try to couch the truth of how shitty it is to be GLBT youth in unhurtful terms. If your (oppressive, majority) faith produces hateful bigots that drive children to suicide, it's YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM, not mine. It's not the job of the oppressed party to EVER try to explain or be nice about their oppression. Fuck 'em if the truth hurts. It's still the fuckin' truth.
68
@11: Amen. I was raised the same way, and it's a terrible way for a gay kid to grow up.
69
At first I thought you were being too hard, then I reread that she does not support gay marriage. The pain she feels is probably her God telling her to examine her feelings and prejudices toward her neighbour. If God loves us all equally, and created us for loving relationships, then gay marriage is every bit as right as heterosexual marriage. The pain she feels is infinitesimal compared to crushing shame delivered ceaselessly by bigots and bullies and ignorant haters emboldened by a book with variations and translations (because not even just one version is "satisfactory enough" for people). Even her Lord was on the cross for only three hours. I hope she re-examines her attitudes and walks into the light of reason.
70
@45

Fuck tolerance. The reason we have the situation we are in is that we liberals suck the idea of "tolerance" with our mothers' organic breastmilk. Tolerance is bullshit.

You know what I have no tolerance for? Hatred of others based soley on who they choose to love. I don't tolerate assholes who tell kids they will burn in hell if they touch themselves. I don't tolerate dirty old men with hate themselves and everyone else so much that the only way they can get off is buttfucking helpless little boys. I have even less tolerance when those same motherfuckers oppose the distribution of condoms that will save tens of thousands of lives.

What else? I don't tolerate it when self-important, entitled little fucks, pumped up with self esteem by their hateful "christian" helicopter parents, drive confused, sad, sensitive kids to kill themselves by demeaning them, hitting them, spitting on them, spying on them, raping them and perpetrating thousands of other cruelties day in day out. The stupidest thing I have heard said is that "These situations are a tragedy for everyone involved." Fuck that shit. These situations are a tragedy for the victims. The perpetrators are a waste of air.
71
Letter Writer, you display all manner of failures of logic.

"If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preferance, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)?"

In other words, if we should not judge based on sexual preference, we shouldn't judge based on ANYTHING? How stupid is that? Using your logic, we shouldn't judge rapists, or murdererers, or drunk drivers, or war profiteers, or people who sneak videos of their roommates having sex and post them on the Internet, harshly. Idiot, not all criteria are equal. Unless you think that homosexuality is indistinguishable in its level of evil from genocide, which is also indistinguishable from killing someone while driving drunk, which is also indistinguishable from driving cold sober? Honestly, how many brain cells does it take to work that out?

Homosexuals harm noone. (No, not even themselves.) Your attitude and legislative activities harm homosexuals. You, with your "someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage," you are allying yourself with that harm. YOU ARE DOING THE GREATER HARM. That's why you get the harsher judgement.

"We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people."

In that case "we" cannot believe that our love is somehow better or more worthy than the love that someone else experiences, and therefore you have no justification for claiming that your marriage is more worthy of the recognition afforded by the covenant of marriage than gay marriage is. You cannot claim to be all sinners fallen together, and then expect to be able to have privileges that you then systematically deny to others who are down in the same trench with you. You can't have it both ways.

Finally, your No True Scotsman fallacy is duly noted. Go look it up. Then kick yourself good and hard for using it so witlessly, start actually denouncing the people who do all the things you deplore while still daring to call themselves Christians, and resolve to be a better critical thinker in future.
72
Go Dan! Well done!
73
Dan, all day at work I have been thinking about these 5 kids that we know have died recently and all the other ones that we haven't heard about, and the one refrain that has been going through my head was "STOP KILLING OUR KIDS". Then I got off work, sat down in front of the computer and found that you had put voice to my thoughts, and did so in the best Savage manner. Thank you, dear.

You, Sir, are truly a fierce advocate worthy of the title. God bless you.
74
Dan, your words are so powerful, my blood is boiling.
75
@47: Whether the letter writer thinks being gay is a "sin" or not is entirely irrelevant. I don't give two shits what someone thinks in the privacy of their own skull.

What is important is that gays are being denied LEGAL rights enjoyed by the rest of the citizenry, despite being ostensibly citizens on the same level with everyone else. If the Letter Writer does not support gay marriage, then he(she?) is lending support to a state of second-class citizenship. Yes, it really is that simple.
76
My heart breaks for you too, Raymond Chase.

Rest in Peace kiddo.

77
In my precious America, we have separation of Church and State. Here, the freedom which that represents means marriage may be ONLY a legal contract, one which stands in for many dozens of others.

Two people with matching DNA may legally marry in every state as of this minute. Why should some poor overworked jaded shlub of a clerk have to care what's in the pants of ANY couple who come for a license?

And, repeated: draft the straight kids to stop bullying in favor of sticking it to the Man. Sit-ins R fun.

Let me say I told you so, already. And sit up straight or your face will freeze that way.
78
Oh. Hydrate.
79
Shit, I said I didn't ever want to write those words again. God damn this is heart breaking.
80
Agh, matching chromosomes. Duh.
81
L.R. you are playing to the wrong room. And given a choice between you wishy washy, limp dick Christians like you trying to ride both sides of the fence and young gay people repeatedly and helplessly tormented by bully assholes that fly your flag... I used to be a homophobe. This kind of horseshit is what changed my mind. Eat a bag of shit, L.R.
82
Awesome, Dan. Absolutely perfect response. Thank you so much.
83
FUCKING AWESOME ! I hope all the religious bigots choke on their own bile. Thank you Dan. Thank you.
84
I guess the person whom DS was replying to hasn't posted yet?
85
Dan, I love you even more than I already did. Brilliant post.
86
Fuck your faith and your hurt feewings, LR. Dan is right on about this - you're an adult with a moral responsibility to your own conscience, not just to whatever "evil" your herd is pointing at at this moment in time. If your faith is hurting people, you have a moral responsibility to see that and change it or abandon it.

You can't call someone "wrong," call them a "sinner" and call an inextricable part of what they are "vile" or "deviant" and damn them to eternal torment and then pretend to be sad when they die. It doesn't add up. We're social creatures, and people die when they're vilified and ostracized, and you are vilifying and ostracizing them. Fuck you.

Right fucking on, Dan.
87
Dan. It actally isn't suicide. The youngster may 'trigger' and end his or her life, but the radiical religous bigoted right loaded the gun. Words are
weapons, and hate speech can kill. So, let us refer to it as what it really is. Murder. Robin Tyler
88
"Yeah, like, I get that kids are dying and all but we're clearly losing sight of how I'M a victim in all this!"
Seriously?
89
100%, Dan. We're winning. We'll lose a few, and that's a tragedy, but we will win.

I say "we" because this whole business doesn't have anything to do with gay or straight. There's no difference, really. Those poor dead boys aren't just sad news for the gays, they're a loss for all of us, and these freaks who think they have "feelings" that mean something in the face of this little blast of hate we're weathering are losing too.

L. R. needs to check herself, there's not a shred of Christ in there.
90
Dan you must be exhausted.
91
Gotta say I love what you do, Dan. I love your heart and your bravery. I love your edge. It works for me because I trust your heart.

Thanks for all that you do.
92
LR:

Cry me a river.

Then drown in it.

Love and kisses,

The internet
93
LR, most people don't negatively judge people of faith. They negatively judge people of bigotry. There is a huge and important distinction. There are many very faithful people (of numerous religions, including Christianity), who do not support bigotry. They support full equal rights for homosexuals, bisexuals, and so forth. However, some people are bigots. Many of those bigots desperately try to use the Bible to justify their bigotry, even though the Bible doesn't really support it, but there is a huge history of using the Bible to support bigotry (it's been used to support racism and slavery, which it doesn't support well either - it does, however, support sexism quite well, so if you want to be sexist, you can get good Biblical support for that). Many people find this offensive, however, really, it's not that that bothers most people, but the bigotry itself. I assure you, if a large number of atheists were openly promoting bigotry that people would be against that too. The faith really isn't the important issue. This issue is just tied with faith because there is no rational reason to oppose gay rights, so people keep stating that their faith justifies it, which makes people have to go against "people of faith", but it's just the bigots that most reasonable people oppose. I quite like many people of faith who are not bigoted.
94
How you can say that Dan is unjustly vilifying people of faith and then openly admit that you're against gay marriage is beyond me.
95
Christians are in love w/ playing the victim & manipulating out of weakness. It's how their religion began. You can't remove this dynamic from the religion & still call it "Christianity."

LR tries to play the victim & accuses Dan of being some big, scary, hate-monger. Yes, it is true that there are Christians who accept & support GLBT. But they're a drop in the bucket and are too busy turning the other cheek & humbly accepting their lot to do anything substantial. Waiting for the Christians to stop their hatemongering brethren is like waiting for America to rejoin Britain: It ain't gonna happen.

Dan's response is the proper one for people who try to play the victim and manipulate out of weakness: Fuck You. It hurts your feelings? Sucks to be you, then.
96
Hmm...

"As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage..."


is later followed by the statement,

"We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people."


So, civil rights like the right to marry don't count, as far as this not believing you're better or more worthy than others? Because those two mindsets seem in direct opposition to one another to me. But maybe I'm a bit biased, what with coming from a religious background and doing away with Christianity after realizing how inherently hypocritical, hateful, misogynistic, outdated, and ridiculous it all was.
97
Oh dear god Daniel.
That was so thoroughly beautiful, I almost came...
98
My father is a Methodist Reverend. He would punch LR in the balls for being such a whiny little twit.
99
"Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of a savior." Warped. Disingenuous. Stupid.

If you want to know what Christ saw as his "above all" read the Sermon on the Mount. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That's the heart of the Gospel. All the rest is BS you learned in church. As Woody Allen once said: "If Jesus came back and saw what was going on his name, he'd never stop throwing up."

That said, there are thoughtful, intelligent Christians who get it right. I actually had a very good experience with the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, growing up, although I don't belong to any church today. The Disciples were and are committed to diversity in all ways, and even in the 70s and 80s were gay and lesbian-inclusive. I had positive and affirming relationships as a teen with gay and lesbian pastors whose goal was not to cure me, but to, as with anyone, help ease my way in this world, teach me empathy, and affirm my humanity with love and friendship.

This was in Speedway, Indiana, by the way.

That community of acceptance got me through my awkward and turbulent teens relatively unscathed.

I agree with Dan's focus on the Christianist haters. They deserve to be called out. But here's a shout-out to the good people at Speedway Christian who embraced me as a whole person in my youth and affirmed that person wholly with love, kindness, and acceptance, and, above all, taught me to do unto others as I would have them do unto me.
100
Dan, I love that you call out the haters for their bullshit. Just please be careful about painting all people of faith with that same brush. I'm a UU seminarian, and I'm one of the good guys. I also know that there are lots of really good, compassionate people of faith out there. UUs are pretty much universally supportive of glbt issues. So are Quakers. A majority of UCC churches are welcoming and supportive, and I know lots of queer clergy in all kinds of other faiths.

Yes, call out the hates for their stuff. But please don't paint all people of faith with that same brush. Thanks for the good work. Love the video project!