and remember to be decent to everyone
all of the time.
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Christians generally believe the Old Testament law to be superseded by two-part commandment of Christ (love God, and love your neighbor as yourself).
And modern Jewry has a rich Rabbinical tradition that has constantly expanded and updated their understanding of Old Testament law to keep it meaningful and relevant in modern society.
To say that the Bible condemns modern, loving gay relationships fundamentally misunderstands how Jewish and Christian theologians (even the conservative ones) have approached scripture over thousands of years.
So, I'm thinking it's possible some of your people didn't get that particular memo.
I think the out-and-out hateful bigots are the exception because they are not bothered by the inhumanity betrayed in their literal and absolutist interpretations of holy books. However, those bigots can and will do their worst because the ordinary folks in their midst lack the emotional courage to challenge the overt bigots because doing so threatens too much of the religious belief system itself. To me, callers like this are much more pervasive and difficult to handle because of the psychological need they have to not think critically about their belief systems--instead they explain it away, ignore the contradictions and justify their contempt and fear as merely "helping" those who they see as lesser than themselves. Never underestimate how easily a person can psychologically narrate their own hostility toward others as beneficent to said others as a means to reconcile their conscience with a rigid belief system.
1 Peter 2:18
18Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
Also, Why would a perfect God need to change his perfect rules? Wouldn't a divine being had gotten them right the first time?
Which of course has nothing to do with encouraging young people to kill themselves.
Just out of curiosity, are there many reported cases of young women/ girls committing suicide due to homophobia?
He basically argues that if it weren't for Christianity (or religion in general), homophobia would not exist.
I disagree.
The core of all bigotry is that humans have a tendency to dislike other people who are different, whether that difference is skin color or religion or sexual orientation or tribe. Religion fans the flames of this bigotry, but it does not create the bigotry. Even if religion didn't exist at all, there would still be some bigotry inherent in people. It would probably be a LOT less, but it would still be there.
I think it is completely valid to blame christianists for fanning the flames of homophobia, and they must share part of the blame for the suicides of gay kids. But just like racism hasn't disappeared once churches stopped preaching the merits of slavery, homophobia won't disappear if churches stop calling gays sinners.
Romans 1
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Again, it's a mythology, and such passages will soon be ignored, just as the scriptures commanding woman to be silent in church are ignored now.
When I was attending pentocostal schools, my basketball teacher said we should send all the gays to South Dakota.... Knowing full well my TERMINALLY ILL Sister was a lesbian.
And that really is the point people like Signorile have been making all along: yes, there are passages in the Bible that, given the inherent degradation of meaning over multiple transliterations, identify specific acts as "abominations against God". But contemporary Christians, regardless of their denomination, have developed a sort of ranking system (e.g. eating shellfish not-so-much-an-abomination as homosexuality) where in fact originally no such distinctions existed.
An abomination is an abomination; there are no lesser or greater abominations, and those who believe in Yahweh/Jehovah have never been given the right to select which abominations they will avoid and which they may partake of without invoking His wrath.
Some may argue that Yeshua essentially represents a big "do over", negating the harsher proscriptions from the Old Testament and replacing them with a more humane, more enlightened paradigm in the New Testament. But if that is in fact the case, then why haven't contemporary Christians thrown ALL the OT abominations in the metaphysical trash bin? Why have they only chosen to ignore MOST of them, while continuing to vehemently enforce a literal handful of others? Where did they get that right to choose? Certainly NOT from their God, and certainly not from any statements attributed to Yeshua.
Based on this, what other argument can be made, except to point out to them that they cling to these last few proscriptions, not out of any sense of fealty to their God or to Jesus, but simply because their religion offers them friendly cover for their own inherent bigotry and homophobia?
@22 And what Signorile is saying is that preachers telling people that homosexuality is "going against religion" is precisely why these kids are getting thrown into lockers. The fact that a certain number of followers manage to restrain themselves from doing physical violence is beside the point.
Thanks for linking to this guy, I hadn't heard of him, but just discovered he's on XM98, in addition to the Sirius channel. Read his bio, sounds like a very cool guy, except that he and his partner.........own a pitbull :(
And to be clear, I'm not saying that what the Bible says is right. As I said earlier, it's a man made mythology. And just as we Christians currently ignore the New and Old passages that say that a slave must be subversion to his master, even if that master is harsh, they will soon ignore the anti gay passages.
As #6 so eloquently stated, "To say that the Bible condemns modern, loving gay relationships fundamentally misunderstands how Jewish and Christian theologians (even the conservative ones) have approached scripture over thousands of years."
Also in my previous post, the "We Christians" is a typo. Obviously I'm not a Christian. I started to type "we ignore", but realized that I ignore the entire Bible, and tried to edit it to "Christians ignore". but neglected to delete the "we". Sorry for any confusion that may have caused.
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men,
It condemns homosexuality, and says gays deserve death, just as does the Old Testament.
Namely stop being a materialistic asshole, treat everyone with respect, and give your life over to helping the less fortunate.
Try all I might, I missed the part about America being a blessed nation, support for invading other countries, hating gay people, hating muslim people, and not helping poor people out with realistic health care and education schemes which seem to be the hallmarks of american christianity....
If your life isn't about this stuff you are not a christian.
Pretty hard for the word "homosexuality" to appear anywhere in the bible, I'd say, given it's a relatively modern term. And as I said to @6 in reference to what he wrote, if a handful of intelligent theologians have chosen to ignore the obviously ridiculous portions of the bible over the years, well, that's great, but that message has not filtered down to 99% of the other religious leaders out there.
That's like saying that because God struck someone blind, that all blind people are sinners and God hates them. Even if you believe that in the particular stated case there was a sin, it doesn't follow that it extends to all loving, responsible gay people. Read the actual passage, not what you have been told it means.
The Sodom story points out that gang rape by straight men is bad. Um, yeah. And even then, that's not what Sodom was punished for. But more to the point, God didn't condemn Sodom because the nice boys next door invited Lot to brunch, or the rather butch ladies down the block offered to help him with some home repairs between softball games.
And so on. The. Book. Doesn't. Say. What. You. Think. It. Does.
And of course, even if it did, that shouldn't have a damn thing to do with civil law.
And enshrine their version of the Bible in law.
The whole point of Freedom of Religion is that No One; not the state, not the Pope, not Dan Savage; No One can tell anybody else what to believe or how to interpret the Bible.
and yeah, Signorile is a first rate asshole.....
Doesn't matter if it is a fundy in a doublewide or an asshole radio host.
Considering all the contradictory nonsense that the bible contains (that's not my interpretation, just read it and you'll see), I'd say that those principles are in direct opposition to the bible... except a few bits in the gospels, which most christians are rather happy to ignore.
His abrasive approach is "justified" by him being Signorile. He's the dude who made outing popular, remember?
It was a long time coming (the fight took almost 30 years), but my own denomination, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, affirmed LGBT pastors in "publically accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-sex relationships" in 2009, and affirmed the right of congregations to call such pastors. In fact, a bunch of these pastors were moved back on to the regular roster of ordained leaders in recent months (you can read a sermon from one of those liturgies here if you are interested - it's very moving. http://sarcasticlutheran.typepad.com/sar…). The next step will be writing the rites of blessing for same-sex unions.
Serious biblical scholars, who aren't from literalist schools, pretty much all acknowledge that, first and foremost, a lot of the stuff in the Bible was written to particular communities at particular times. For example, when shellfish goes bad, it kills people quickly. The best way to avoid that kind of death is to avoid shellfish. In modern times, with refrigeration and quicker means of transport, the danger isn't as acute, so the prohibition doesn't apply.
In the case of the passage from Romans quoted above, there was a lot going on. First of all, Paul genuine believed that Jesus's return was immanent, like in his lifetime. He saw sex in general as irrelevant and encouraged chastity for all (I don't have my Bible with me, and I suck at remembering chapters and verses, so I can't give you citations because I don't have my notes). He thought that anything that was impure was evil. In the passage quoted above (which is somewhat taken out of context - this admonishment begings in Romans 1:18), Paul also calls out wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice, envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious towards parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless."
But Paul also goes on to call out those who pass judgment on others and hypocrites in Romans 2:1-3. That is part of the context of that whole message. It's not up to humanity to judge - that is reserved for God alone.
This whole rambling mess is just to show that context matters - both in terms of the audience the writer is speaking to, and terms of understanding the writer's intent. Oh, and I got most of my biblical training from the Catholics. Their actions may not always show it, but that is how they approach the Bible.
Oh and on an only slightly related note, @31 makes a really good point. Look for Shane Claiborne sometime. He comes from a more conservative viewpoint than I do, but he says a lot about the things @31 talks about.
No matter how you want to spin it, the Bible is virulently anti gay. Again it's only a matter of time before that message is largely ignored as are the parts that say women should never wear gold, or braid their hair.
PS Signorile seems to be focusing on gay teen suicides today, the show just started (mountain time), it's on from 2-6pm ET.
Things are changing though. When my synod, which encompasses South Louisiana and Southeast Texas, voted on the resolution to allow partnered LGBT clergy, it passed with well more than the 66% required for it to pass. Granted, part of that was the fact that the largest congregations are in Houston and New Orleans (though the only big congregation in NO was not in favor), but in order for it to pass with such a majority, a lot of people from tiny little towns in Texas had to vote for it, too.
Times are changing. All I can say from the perspective of a follower of Jesus who tries to be inclusive, non-judgmental, and not hypocritical (though I'm sure I fail miserably at all of those sometimes), is that I for one will continue to speak out against hatred and bigotry in the Christian community. It has no place.
The Scripture really doesn't say what you seem to think it says. The Old Testament is written in Hebrew and Aramaic. One needs to understand those languages and a little something about the history and culture at the time to really debate the meanings of some of the passages.
There are many learned scholars over thousands of years who have debated and debated the significance of one or two words at a time. And -- whether or not it's Divine Word -- each word is there for a specific reason.
So, yes, when people like the caller above say "it's in the Bible" or you say that it "clearly" is speaking about homosexuality... you're simply missing the point.
If you claim you "know what the Bible says", you are fooling yourself, and should look into commentary on the interpretations more.
The basic argument Signorile makes here "you think I am going to hell because I am gay, therefore you treat me like shit and inspire others to treat me like shit" is unmitigated bunk. Christians think that most people are going to hell. They think that everyone who is not Christian is going hell. Right off the bat that means that 3/4 of the world is going to hell, and there are lots of ways for the 1/4 to qualify. The fact that a Christian thinks you are going to hell doesn't make you special. It just means you are in the majority.
Just because there are a number of people who have a special interest in gays going to hell doesn't mean that everyone who thinks they are going to hell are going to be as dicklike about it. The nature of the Christian faith requires you to accept that most of your friends are going to hell. Most Christians are able to accept that and still maintain "outside" friendships.
Heck, my parents and sister think I am going to hell. That doesn't mean they hate me or want me to have a bad life or unequal rights. I would venture to say that they in fact love me.
Mature Christians accept that there is a difference between what God demands and what humane society demands. They are able to accept that equal rights on earth should extend to lots of groups of people that are going to hell later. For many modern Christians this is the meaning of both "Render onto Caesar that which is Caesar's" and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This is why coming out is an effective tool. Most Christians are able to accept the gays they know personally and this extends to gays they don't know. Don't confuse this acceptance with an abandonment of their religious faith. It is an acceptance of the fact that while God has the right to judge you, they do not.
It is important to distinguish between the Westboro Baptist Church types and run of the mill Christians who accept Christian theology. Both groups think you are going to hell. The difference is that the first group is going to actively oppose your rights and the second is available to come around to your side in terms of earthly rights. Some of them are already on your side. If however, you demand that they abandon their religion in order to be an acceptable ally in your fight for equal rights, you will not only lose those potential allies, you will look like a dick while you are doing it.
I say all this as an atheist pro-gay marriage anti-DADT liberal. Being a dick like Signorile was in this clip may be fun, but it is neither persuasive nor productive. In the end, being a dick just makes you a dick.
54, Leviticus 20:13
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Nowhere does it say, "but, if the men are gay, it's okay."
Again, it's a silly ancient rule from a book of myths and superstitions, but it's not ambiguous at all.
Bill Maher, "Religulous"
I point to the phrase (in your translation) "as one lies with a woman". This implies some substitution in which one man emasculates another by forcing him into a woman's role (in bed). This obviously does not apply to homosexuals, as gays don't care about women in terms of sex. Without the gender substitution, there'd be no sin by that rule. If it was meant to ban any same-sex relations, your translation would omit the phrase "as one lies with a woman".
And if you think that the Old Testament isn't ambiguous, you obviously haven't ever looked at a Tanakh in Hebrew. A great deal of words, we must make guesses to translate, as their original meaning is not understood. Due to the fact that consonant words can often be vocalized several different ways, many phrases contain double meanings. And any translation necessarily carries the bias of the translator. Don't play with me; I will end you.
Second, this all boils down to folks believing that GLBT folks *choose* to be the way we are. The people in the world who accept us are those who know that none of us chose to be attracted to the same sex. Those who don't are those who refuse to acknowledge all forms of evidence, empirical or anecdotal, and believe we wake up every day thinking "I'm going to sin today and love my partner- yay!".
To win over a hater, all one needs to do is make them realize that no one 'chooses' what sex turns them on.
In other words, you're letting someone else do the interpretation for you. I know Christianity doesn't put a whole lot of importance on independent thought, but in Judaism, we're encouraged to read the Tanakh for ourselves and draw our own conclusions.
In short, my point is that you aren't talking about the same things. And, both points have truth. Not to mention, you all are on the same side.
Anyway, it is fascinating to follow. I love this stuff.
Thank you. My post is riddled with typos in @ 65, I'm amazed that I got my point across. That will teach me to post from home when I'm under the influence of both antibiotics and pain medicine.
Take care.
God doesn't change. It's written in the bible, so it must be so. ... Wait, that shellfish stuff is in the OLD Testament. God changed his mind about that.
*eye roll*
Anyone want to do a fact check and see where all the anti-gay bullshit is in the Bible? Because it seemed to me when I read it that most of was in the OLD Testament. And year, there is a clear message there that you men shouldn't have sex with other men (don't think it said anything about lesbians though). Do Christians not read their own bibles? Everything anti-gay in the New Testament is largely open to interpretation.
Anyway, arguing with religious people never gets anywhere. They have their beliefs that are largely based on what their church tells them to believe (and not usually on what the bible actually says). And the only thing that can get them to change their mind is an appeal to humanity. Treating people with respect doesn't prevent suicide. Treating people with KINDNESS does. And that was really Jesus's main message!! Poor guy is probably rolling in his grave when he sees what a mockery the Christians have made of his message (metaphorically speaking anyway ... since I don't actually believe in that kind of thing.)
Handy.
Since your God hasn't spoken to you for 2500 years.
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
And yes, it's pretty much literally "homosexuals," translated from a Greek word coined by Paul from the root words of "having intercourse with" and "men." Hard to squirrel your way out of that.
Of course, Jesus told his followers they should cut their hands off rather than masturbate. There's a lotta crap in there. Christians must repudiate this nonsense, just as Muslims must repudiate the Verse of the Sword and Mohammed's last words, Hindus shouldn't burn wives on the funeral pyre with their dead husbands, blah blah blah. Basically everyone should carefully consider before following the edicts of pre-modern cultures.
I don't think I've ever listened to his show, but his name sounds familiar, and I had a higher regard for him than he deserves in this clip. I assume he'd had a hard day or something, but his interview style sounds like Sean Hannity: invite them on the show, and don't let them utter more than two words before you cut them off and start accusing and accosting them. I think his points are all valid, but I think he was being way too mean to this caller. I can't imagine this is productive, but then neither is logical discourse, I guess.
Someone has. Thomas Jefferson to be specific.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_B…
Will you marry me?
"Irregardless", on the other hand, isn't. I have a feeling you have a lot more in common with your father (and Sarah Palin) then you'd like to admit, coz you're the one who sounds proud of her ignorance here.
"Rob has quoted scripture that seems irrefutable"
Rob is quoting A TRANSLATION of scripture. My point is that the Pentateuch is written in a very old form of Hebrew, and many phrases are extremely ambiguous. Pick up a Hebrew & English copy of the Tanakh and see how many footnotes the English pages have pointing out ambiguities or alternate translations. But here, feast your eyes on this alternate translation of Leviticus 20:13.
"And a man who will lie down with a male in beds of a woman, both of them have made an abomination; dying they will die. Their blood is on them." (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bi…)
Archaic Hebrew is NOT simple. You can shut your ignorant mouth now.
My mother taught me that.
When they were going to stone a woman for adultry Jesus said let he who is without sin cast the first stone and they all hung their heads and walked away.
So to modernize that a bit, Jesus said to them I saw what u did dere, and I know none of u r really any better.
Second, I could look it up, but hey, why don't some of you so-called Christians look it up for us? There is a verse that says you know how you rank sins as some worse and some not so much? Yeah, God doesn't see it that way. Now what have you all got to say about not treating your women like slaves, eating shellfish and pork, and all that other? Not to mention what you did that day when you thought no one saw you.
When they were going to stone a woman for adultry Jesus said let he who is without sin cast the first stone and they all hung their heads and walked away.
So to modernize that a bit, Jesus said to them I saw what u did dere, and I know none of u r really any better.
Second, I could look it up, but hey, why don't some of you so-called Christians look it up for us? There is a verse that says you know how you rank sins as some worse and some not so much? Yeah, God doesn't see it that way. Now what have you all got to say about not treating your women like slaves, eating shellfish and pork, and all that other? Not to mention what you did that day when you thought no one saw you.
There's a reason that it's better to read a book in the original language, rather than the translation.
You all realize that the Christian Old Testament IS NOT the Tanakh. The Tanakh Does Not equal the Old Testament. Right? They are not the same thing. Despite the fact that Jewish born converts to what became known as Christianity borrowed from the Tanakh to create the Old Testament. And, that those Jewish born converts and Roman born converts historicized parts of the Tanakh as means of presenting Jesus of Nazareth as fulfilling prophecies for the compiled letters that make up the New Testament. The Tanakh is like a native heirloom apple tree. The other, the Old Testament, is a genetically modified apple tree created from the native heirloom. They're both apple trees, but they aren't identical. They are not the same thing. Not the same things.
Now, it is your choice if you wish to keep circling. You both are right, in my opinion. I wager that Rob is correct with regard to the majority of individuals who read the Christian Bible, as I have met very few who question it as it appears on the page and if they do it is because they are struggling with their personal ability to comply with it as it is written on the page. Venomlash is correct as well, for most Christian scholars agree that when the Old Testament is traced back to its native heirloom roots, the Tanakh, those black and white passages become ambiguous and murky. The problem is most Christians, at least many that I personally know, don't want to struggle with ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek and THEY DON'T want to discover that a long held cherished belief is wrong. They want to be told what to believe, and they want to believe that they have been and always will be correct in what they believe. Critical thinking is not a valued trait, in most churches that I personally have attended, compliance and conformity is.
Just sayin', but you can feel free to ignore me.
Ephesians 5; "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord... wives should submit to their husbands in everything. "
And also
Ephesians 6 "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."
Please don't say "Oh, but that's only in the old testament", like us heathens have never met the google...
beautiful post, as usual.
I'd add that while i'm not learned enough to know for sure if the Bible condemns homosexuality or not, I fully agree with Rob from Baltimore that it doesnt really matter. Bible openly supports a lot of things that already been send to the history's dust bin, like slavery, oppression of women, genocides of whole nations, polygamy, etc. Next thing to be disposed( God be our helper!)is homophobia and denial of rights to gay people.
We, as faithful(vs. merely religious) Christians, know what exactly faith is.It's not hating other people, but loving them. And taking Bible - the book written and composed by fallen humans- literally, instead of critically, is not faith either :)
http://books.google.com/books?id=6O9Wj8E…