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Oct 12, 2010 at 7:46 am
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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Was this kid crying, or just shrieking at random intervals? In the former case, you take it outside or stick your tit in its mouth. In the latter case, I have no idea, the whole raising kids thing isn't easy.
@1 is right. The whole baby thing is a really complicated way to get new people.
Of course, this works wonders with cranky husbands as well.
Seriously, I know people like this parent. They can never acknowledge that their child is ever annoying or appalling, to themselves or to others. These people take their kids to restaurants and don't understand why the owners object to these kids crawling around and under neighbouring tables. They are the people who say things like "Oh no, I don't mind that little Madysonne isn't sleeping through the night, we're using the time to bond and get caught up on Dora episodes we've missed." Argh. If you can acknowledge that your kids drive you crazy at times, then you can acknowledge they might do this to others as well. "Ignoring parent" in your story won't ever suggest to her child that his behaviour is less than perfect. You could keep copies of Christie Mellor's excellent parenting tome: Three Martini Playdate to hand out on just such occasions.
Mmm hmm.
Keeping clean is good. Germ paranoia like in the Parent Dish article is shilling for corporations that would grind babies up for dog food if it made them a profit.
Here's the kicker - since I'm a parent and need to be home most evenings, I usually go to matinee performances, where at 40 I'm among the youngest attendees. These talkers are older than baby boomers, so you can't blame generation differences for their oblivious rudeness.
Your story reminded me of when the Emerson String Quartet played here a few years ago (although night, there were again few non-gray or non-white heads in attendance) and one of the violinists, frustrated that people were still talking while the quartet was clearly poised to begin playing, said, "Any time now, people. We're ready to play now." People finally shut up.
There are a few things they could do, though I've never seen them do anything at all .. 1. approach the offending table and ask if there is anything you can do: this signals to the parents that their kid screaming is unacceptable 2. turn up the music a touch to mask the screaming a bit .. 3. If #1 doesn't lead the parents to take action, management needs to politely intervene and suggest that someone take the kid for a little fresh air.
It's ridiculous when it comes to this & parents don't know better. Becoming the restaurant of the screaming kids is NOT in Monsoon's best interest.
Indeed, the pacifying and healing powers of boobs are vastly underutilized, in my humble opinion.
I don't like kids and I don't want any myself, but this is right up there with telling breast-feeding mothers to feed their babies in the bathroom. So...parents and kids have no right to be in public places? Yet sloggers complain about how people up here drive like their needs are more important than anyone else's. If this were a complaint about a pub or a bar, I'd get it. But brunch? Seriously?
I say, thank you, parent who stares off into the middle distance while your child has the indecency to be a baby in public, for having that baby in the first place and dealing with crap like screaming babies and fellow asshole patrons who call your baby "it" (dehumanization much? sheesh) so I don't have to.
I, for one, recognize your right to get the fuck outta the house and live.
How else is this hawkbaby suppose to learn how not to be a hawkbaby? Perhaps you, OP, were once a hawkbaby yourself?
Before that we found ourselves taking turns walking around the block with our daughter while the other one of us ate. But there was one Vietnamese restaurant where the owner would come out and pay attention to our kid so we could eat.
That said, it's hard to read this kind of thing, because Seattle is home to some of the biggest fucking assholes in the world when it comes to other people's kids. It's like these obnoxious twats think they were cloned or something -- that they were never kids themselves, or screamed and annoyed people in restaurants. A lot of Seattle parents, particularly the wealthier ones, are total douchebags about thinking their kids are the special-est special creatures in special-town. The irony is that so many of the ADULTS in this town are clearly the children of those kinds of households. The level of smug, indignant, condescending bullshit that childless 20-something suburban transplants living on Capitol Hill cop around kids and the behavior of kids is enough to make even a patient parent grind his/her teeth into chalk dust.
BUT ... that shriek thing that babies do? they are just testing out their vocal chords and it's not a behavioral thing that needs correction. yeah, take them out of the place if it's bugging people, but no tit, pacifier, scolding or anything will get them to stop. it's like a sneezing fit - it just takes as long as it takes. mine would do it in the grocery store, in the car, wherever. they stop when they're done. every baby i've ever known has gone through the shriek phase. it's short-lived. it's just what they do intermittently for a few weeks leading up to their first words.
8 month olds are not capable of bad behavior. anyone who thinks that just doesn't like babies.
Not always, but usually.
How about, start taking the kid to fancy expensive restraunts when they are actually old enough to appreciate the food.
Parents may get indignant,"what, you mean I'm supposed to not have a life?" but the baby will only be intolerable for about three years, and there is such a thing as a babysitter.
and just for the record i was never a screaming baby. never..my mom just told me this
@22 - Yes, babies are second-class citizens. That's why we don't let them vote or own property. It's also why they aren't afforded every other luxury afforded to adults. When babies stop being shrieking idiots, they are allowed to participate in society. Until then, get a baby sitter if you must go to brunch.
As if your own behavior is so charming. As if your own peers never annoy anybody. If anybody is spoiled, it's you fuckers.
- that shreiking thing is a random intermittent thing that cannot be controlled or predicted.
- smug childless people who hate all child sounds should slink back to their grinch caves.
- smug rich IVF child-emperor having bitches should slink back to their child-proofed disney-store-clad private Villas, or pay the Filipino nanny an hour extra to give their precious angel Tagalog lessons while they eat their foods.
That said, I made it a point to determine the cause of the vocalization of my children and determined if distraction was required or if I needed to take them home. I saw no need to prolong the misery of any individual, especially a small child that can't comprehend that they are being annoying if they can't be comforted or distracted.
You know where a great place is to take babies testing out their vocal chords? Safeco. Put them in the middle of 10,000 or so (or whatever the hapless M's have been pulling in attendance these days) other chattering fans in an outdoor setting and let them scream and squeal away to their heart's content - who's really going to notice? Or maybe take them to the zoo where their vocalizations will blend right in with the other yelps and squawks and screeches. Or a Wiggles concert, or out into the middle of a deserted field or something, But seriously, Sunday brunch at a shoe-boxed sized restaurant is NOT an appropriate place to take your precious, ESPECIALLY when you KNOW they're in that vocalization phase. Maybe wait until they're through with the ear-bleeding caterwauling BEFORE you consider taking them into such an environment. In other words, have just a little bit of consideration for someone other than yourself.
See, because there's a reason the rest of us DIDN'T bring babies to that same restaurant - because we want some DAMNED PEACE AND QUIET with our $10 bowl of pho, and as paying customers who outnumber YOU miss self-absorbed baby-mama by a roughly 20-to-1 ratio, we have some rights too. So, if your spawn is going to make those "cute" little high-pitched noises that send bats spluttering around in confusion, do the right thing - take it outside until it stops. If it doesn't stop, take it home. Really, how hard is that?
And get off of my lawn.
It's one thing to blame a parent for the child acting out-- that's unreasonable, especially if it's a very small child. But the parent is responsible for what he or she DOES when the child acts out. "Nothing" is not an option, or at least shouldn't be if you care about anyone around you.
if the phone had been ringing non-stop at the restaurant, or a car alarm had been going off right outside, etc, etc, etc, i don't think that would have the same upsetting effect because people understand that it's part of life and these things happen. i just happen to feel that way about babies.
really, don't hate me. i like you.
My parents didn't take us out to nice places until we were capable of staying quiet. If you want to draw in your coloring book, fine - do it quietly. If you want to eat little pieces of paper, fine - do it quietly. Until we were old enough to deal with that, they budgeted for a babysitter and included that in the cost of going out for dinner. Or they took us to McDonald's and let us loose in the play area.
I don't hate you. I just want you to encase your baby in lucite until it is old enough to behave.
@32 "Until then, get a baby sitter if you must go to brunch."
What if you can't afford a baby sitter every time you leave the house? Classist, much? I'm guessing you won't like my telling you: if you must go to brunch, make sure to eat quickly and leave to spare the other patrons your entitlement to a world devoid of other people.
Sorry if that was snarky, but, really, it amazes me how quickly people try to control other people's lives (and the development of children) to suit their own comfort. What about the baby's parents? Does having kids make THEM second class citizens? Have some freakin' compassion. You can always remove YOURSELF from the situation...oh, that's not nice? Thought not.
If you can't afford a babysitter every time you want to go out, you can't afford to go out every time you want to. I can't afford to go out every time I want to, but I don't expect everyone around me to facilitate that.
Babies are not things. Babies are humans.
It seems as though many people here are not making the distinction between a whiny undisciplined brat and a baby having a spontaneous burst of baby-ness. I agree that if your kid is crying all the time because s/he's cutting a tooth or in that phase where they throw food around or whatever that yeah, you should stay home. but if a baby (not child, BABY) unpredictably starts doing baby stuff, it's unfair to say that the parents never should have come. yes they should dismiss themselves and get things under control. but they need not opt out of civilization until their baby reaches a certain age.
as was also pointed out earlier, there are things that are just as aggravating, if not more so, coming from older children and adults in any given public space.
You have no idea why that parent had that baby in that restaurant. Maybe it had less to do with preciousness than it had to do with just needing to get out of the house. Maybe the parent was just trying to have a normal experience. You don't know. But go ahead and make assumptions and then talk a bunch of shit based on your assumptions. It doesn't make you sound like a giant gaping asshole at all.
@Damn Near Everyone Else: Do you not understand that a piercing shriek hurts? It's painful. The people around you can't use their money or lack of kids to turn off their ability to hear or to feel pain. We're not talking about something negotiable here. Parents, on the other hand, can at least try to do something about their kids. If you think stepping outside to tend to a crying baby is unreasonable, that is kind of messed up, because as I understand it, babies cry when they need something-- food, rest, a break from something that is too much for them, a new diaper, etc. If you want to let your kid be miserable because you want to eat, then the people around you are not the rotten ones. Long story short: everyone around you is going to feel pain, either in the eardrum or in the form of a headache, no matter how cute you think your kid is. It's the responsible and adult thing to at least make an effort to curb the shrieking because of that, and no amount of calling me names is going to change the general rules of etiquette.
And yes, there's a difference between infants and kids who can actually listen to instructions and respond to rewards and punishments. I don't think it makes sense to bring either group to a fancy restaurant, though, until the latter group has learned volume control. Most parents I know, if they go to a non-kiddie but non-fancy place, will practice a warning system-- act out once, you get warned. Act out again, you get removed and a talking to. Act out again, and you get removed permanently. Seems to work pretty well.
This is America, after all.
It's not just Monsoon - go to just about any small restaurant on any given weekend, especially ones on the Hill where a lot of new families have set down stakes, and this same scenario is inevitably played out - and the non-response of the parent is just as predictable.
I seldom hear any adult, no matter what the general level of ambient sound in a restaurant deliberately trying to break the roughly 85 db level that can damage human hearing - unless they're at a sports bar, but you know, it's a sports bar, where you expect people to be loud. And because I KNOW it will be loud there as a matter of course, I can choose to avoid such places at my own discretion. The people who DO decide to go there are not inconvenienced in any way by my absence, and I in turn am not inconvenienced by going there with an unreasonable expectation that it's going to be quiet, when instead I end up walking out with quantities of Eustachian fluid leaking from my punctured ear drums.
And FWIW, I would be equally annoyed at a constantly ringing telephone INSIDE the restaurant as I would be with an unattended car-alarm blaring right OUTSIDE the restaurant. The former should easily be answered by the restaurant staff, or by the patron, while the latter may be somewhat more problematic, since it's entirely likely the owner is not in the vicinity. But regardless, the telephone can and should be easily silenced, as can a screeching baby, in an appropriate manner that shows just a tiny bit of respect for other people; ignoring these, and expecting everyone else to respond in a similar manner simply because that's how you CHOOSE to respond, is simply being rude and inconsiderate.
Maybe what we need are baby-specific restaurants, where parents can all take their infants to the same place and all go deaf together, while the rest of us who choose NOT to go there can protect ours for a little while longer.
It's not unreasonable to expect that when you go to a restaurant, it won't be unbearably noisy. I've been at restaurants where an unruly table of adults was asked by the management to be quiet, this is the same idea. I think for most people, when they have kids, they accept that things will be a little different for a while. They don't get to do all of the things they did before kids, there are trade-offs, obviously.
(and while we're at it, the barking dog i mentioned isn't chained in the backyard barking all day and night either. he just barks when he sees a squirrel).
Ah, the integrity of journalists. They really are the best of America, aren't they?
"This is a difficult restaurant for children"
I think it's polite. I know nobody has to take *me* into consideration when they go out, but im sure there will be a lot of couples out there who left their kids at home, whatever age they are. They will be there to enjoy a dinner away from the daily havoc of child-rearing. And then there is some shrieking (happy or no) that will ruin the entire experience. May as well have gotten some take-out and parked the car off the road somewhere for 30 minutes.
I dunno. I'm not trying to say NEVER bring a kid out, because there are always extenuating circumstances, but you have to think of everyone you will be affecting. That might have been the only time someone got out of the house that year for a dinner because their family is long-distance and they have a special-needs child or something. You don't know what you change when you think of only yourself. Think of others too.
Needing to get out of the house is completely understandable; needing to inflict your screeching, squealing infant on other people in a small, closed environment is not. If it's simply a matter of getting out of ones own space, there are any number of public places to take a loud baby that do NOT involve inflicting that loudness on others unnecessarily; I mentioned just a handful in a previous comment.
And "normal experiences" do not, as a general rule, involve pissing off a bunch of other people who are themselves attempting to have a similar "normal experience". If having their ears shattered by the sound of a crying, screaming, echo-location emitting infant - regardless of the reason the sound is being produced - is their idea of "normal", then maybe what they really need to do is ditch the kid for a bit (with a grandparent, aunt, sister, babysitter, cousin, whomever) and reacquaint themselves with what the world sounds like when they're NOT in the presence of their child.
THAT's called "a normal experience" for the rest of us.
But regardless, the WHY is irrelevant: if the baby is causing a disruption for whatever reason (and really it doesn't matter whether the baby is misbehaving or simply exercising its lungs as babies tend to do), and said disruption is creating a disturbance for other paying customers, then the parent has a duty and obligation to do what they can to ameliorate that disruption.
There are any number of completely appropriate ways to do that - many have been mentioned above - that can simply and effectively solve the problem. Taking the child out of the environment for a few minutes would, if nothing else, show others the parent is both aware of the disruption and making a good-faith effort to deal with it. Even if the child does occasionally pipe up after that, chances are most patrons are going to be more understanding, because the parent has shown some due consideration.
Sitting there and ignoring the disruption, on the other hand, and expecting everyone else to be inconvenienced simply because it creates slightly less inconvenience for the parent is NOT an appropriate response, and such inconsiderate behavior should not be tolerated.
Where we diverge, I think, is in the thinking that a non-chuckecheese restaurant is never an appropriate place for a baby. Many times a baby will just sleep through a meal and parents take their chances that this will be their lucky day. I don't have an issue with that, as long as they take measures to keep things under control if the baby decides not to sleep.
The world is an imperfect place. When we go out into it, we will encounter things that are disruptive. A phone, a truck, a dog, a baby. If the parents are making an effort to keep that disruption down, then they have a right to be there.
Agree to disagree? I like you.
What happens is that once you build living space in the city, people with kids inevitably move in. Then they start getting uppity, acting like they have as much right as anyone to leave their homes and move about freely. Look where that has led: an unhealthy mixing of distinct types of people.
The city is only for bohemians and scenesters. Everybody else should be driving around in Woodinville.
Monsoon is not a cheap place.
I like how you also imply that drunken assholes hitting on people is something that those who go to clubs should just put up with, rather than something to be annoyed about as shrieking babies are annoying. Screw courtesy-- people who want to be obnoxious should just do so, and those who don't like it can stay home. Is that really the way you want things to be?
I think I've made my position quite clear: the issue is not so much the baby itself and what it's doing or why; it's whether the PARENT takes appropriate measures in response. In the example cited by Bethany in the OP, it seems quite obvious the parent made NO EFFORT to respond in any manner whatsoever; they simply ignored it, as they probably do when at home - except they're NOT AT HOME - and they assumed no one else would take issue, because they chose not to themselves.
THAT is what I consider, rude, selfish, inexcusable behavior.
So really, I don't think we're in disagreement at all, good sir...
Not every bar or club is the fucking Ballroom. Most, especially those patronized by people Bethany's age, are relatively quiet, much of the noise is generated by music and normal levels of talking/laughing. And, no, obnoxious assholes who show up to such places are not appreciated any more than shrieking babies are.
Take screaming kids home, find a sitter, etc etc etc. There are at least a dozen responses besides nothing.
I find it funny that people feel OK about defending poor public behavior.
Yeah, there's the part that kind of makes you sound like a total douche. A kid isn't a thing. It's not an experience. An infant is not a pet. It's not even an it. An infant is a small person. This is not to suggest that an infant is the legal or social equivalent of an adult, but neither is an infant simply a bad idea that some parent had, and is now inflicing on other people.
This distinction may be too subtle for you, but what's happening in a situation like the one in Monsoon isn't that the parent is inflicting the baby on other people -- it's that the parent is failing or refusing to mediate the behavior of the baby. To apply an analogy that might make more sense to you, consider the case of a severely disabled person -- someone whose condition causes them to make a lot of noise, or look really gross when they eat. That person isn't inflicting anything on you by coming to a restaurant and occupying the same social space as you. That person is just being who they are, and failing or refusing to moderate their behavior to accommodate your preferences. You could say that their behavior is fucking up your "normal" experience, and you'd be right. You'd also be a total prick.
People shouldn't take babies to theaters. They shouldn't take them to the opera. And they probably shouldn't take them to certain restaurants. I think it's impolite. But bad manners is a lesser offense, in my book, than bigotry.
Anyway, I hope it was my kid that annoyed you. And I'll bet 9 times out of 10 we can drive you out of the restaurant with our joyful noise faster than you can drive us out with your attitude. Sucker.
Mind you, NO ONE else on earth should go there, as it is exactly that, feral children and their alleged minders, but the food is adequate and they get to spend time listening to other kids scream intermittantly, so they get a taste of their own behavior.
Been huffing too many barn fumes, I'd say! And depending on the barn, feel free to come into my bar and stink it up! It might be an improvement!
I did say I try not to inflict my children's shrieking on people. Of course. My point was that non-parents put up with shit from adults and then make a BIG FUCKING DEAL out of having to share space with kids. Jesus, huffy.
I can live with the occasional happy baby shriek more easily than the self-absorbed 20-something texting or talking on his cell in line at Elliott Bay. Both can be annoying, both are part of my world. Kids are part of a diverse environment. They need to practice being part of society, and we are all responsible for helping them be responsible members of our community. Kids, seniors, frat boys, disabled folks, hipsters, goths, gays, Christians--we all live here, we all need to get along.
One time, when our kid was about 6 months old, we went to a Thai restaurant. Our child was being quiet, but the owner came out of the kitchen, picked up our child, and walked him back into the kitchen. As new parents, we were freaked out for about a minute, but then we realized that this was a really nice thing and our kids were welcome in their place. Everyone was a screaming kid at one time...
Let me know when you're going to Monsoon. I'll come scream in your ear.
No, actually that's not true. There are children who are naturally quiet. Those children generally grow into quiet adults who have an inherent (possibly even genetic) aversion to loud noises.
My screaming baby story:
Watching a $2 movie at the Crest (The Apostle with Robert Duval--total kid flick), and a hawk baby was shrieking in the third row. It went on and on. And on.
Eventually the entired theater started and booing and shrieking at this woman and her 300 decibel child. And she Did Not Ever Leave.
At the very next table were four urban, attractive, twenty-somethings who were drinking a lot and being ANNOYING AND LOUD AS FUCK. They swore at the top of their lungs constantly, talked about sex, violence, etc. etc.
It was fucking rude and inconsiderate to my mother and to my child. But I didn't rant about it on the internet or climb up on my high horse about how spoiled, self-centered late 20/early 30-somethings should STFU and respect other people. And I didn't complain to the management either. (And this was not a sports bar or otherwise loud place).
Babies and children are part of what make up a diverse community. Tolerating diversity only to the extent it pleases your self-involved hipster tastes is just fucking ignorant (I love pho! I love homos! They charm me! Babies on the other hand, do not, so they should leave).
Again: tolerating babies and children is just tolerating diversity. You are not the center of the universe. People are annoying sometimes. DEAL WITH IT.
Congratulations on taking other people's shit and refusing to complain about it. Don't expect other people to be a doormat like you.
Thanks.
And congratulations on missing the point of my post completely. That part was really just illustrating that all kinds of people are capable of being annoying in public- and that at times, self-centered 20-somethings are rude to families who are being nothing but polite (rather than the other way around).
This is EXACTLY what EVERY parent should do. My parents did that; I do that, too. Besides that demonstration to others that you are considerate, it's a good way to show kids (at least those old enough to learn) that they have to learn to behave in restaurants.
That said, addressing your reply to me @ 64 - that's just what happens when you go where families go, even if families didn't use to go to these places. I'm very aware of my surroundings and haven't seen such a scene (parents obliviously ignoring bad behavior) over and over - it happens but it's actually pretty rare. But then again we may have different notions of what bad behavior really is. Some people still adhere to the Victorian adage that children should be seen, not heard - I don't need to go over how fucked up Victorian child rearing was, from top to bottom, do I?
Now, I'm not sure what the law says, but I know that Madame K's in Ballard used to prohibit children under 21. I think it was because they were licensed as a full bar, not a restaurant that served alcohol (I don't know the technical terms), but I also know that they just wanted it to be an adult place. Maybe more restaurants should try that approach, if unruly children are becoming epidemic in Seattle.