not at all surprised that white evangelical christians gave themselves the highest grade. i used to be one of those, and i can tell you that their sense of self (both as individuals and as a church community) is seriously fucked up, and is in NO WAY related to how the church is *actually* percieved by the world at large. there's an incredible sense of guilt and self loathing (courtesy of the original sin doctrine), yet at the same time, they have such a sense of righeousness and martyrdom.

ugh. so fucking glad i'm not in that circus anymore.

Rapists, haters and homophobes.

And they really do think this will get them into heaven some day.

2/3s? Huh. Maybe there's more intelligence among the mass of American people than I thought...

No surprises here. White evangelical churches are the least self-critical faith community I've ever encountered. It has to do with their cult-like approach to church membership: you're not just attending a place of worship on Sunday, you're buying into a full lifestyle program, complete with pre-fab political and cultural views. It's why those churches have such high turnaround, and it's also why their anti-gay message is broadcast so strongly.

Of course 70%+ of Americans think their magical friend Jesus listens to their personal prayers and answers them; popular opinion doesn't necessarily mean it's TRUE, though it's probably closer to the mark for people identifying the source of the anti-gay messages they hear.

"Catholics were the most critical of their own churches' messages on homosexuality, while white evangelical Christians gave their churches the highest grades, the survey found."

Indeed.

Reading the PDF, Q.5 (last q) says "Do you personally believe that sexual relations between two adults of the same gender is a sin, or not?

44% yes
46% no

(rest don't know)

So much for our first Mr. Troll up there.

i'd love to see this broken out by those who believe it's a sin and those who don't because asking 'do you think churches do a good job' is VERY different depending on your own biases. someone who hates gays and thinks they're all sinners probably thinks churches do a 'great job'. conversely, someone else who goes to an accepting church and doesn't view it as a sin may also think they do a 'great job'. kinda disappointed in the poll.

Well, I hope this will bring about change. I can hope. I'm prone to think it will happen slowly, though. Churches evolve slowly, after all it took them until the Reformation to hammer out the doctrine of penal substitution and start laying on the heavy guilt. It has been my experience that protestant nondenominational evangelist churches are some of the most guilt ridden places. They are always going on on about how unworthy they are, and at the same time so willing to view themselves as better because they don't do "that". They don't have to preach those you're an abomination, they just point out those that aren't acceptable according to the Pauline letters and lay on more guilt. Think about it, if you feel badly about yourself a common way humans go about making themselves feel better is to take it out on others, point fingers at those viewed as less acceptable. I take a very deep breath before walking through their doors every Sunday and keep my eyes open for those who feel hurt, lost, and/or rejected.

And a goodly number of people also think that eating pork is a sin, should we ban that? Harass people who eat pork? Subject non-believers' and others who don't believe eating pork is a sin's right to eat pork to a popular vote?

A large number of people (possibly more than half the population, I know it's technically in the Catholic dogma, and have heard evangelicals preach against it) believe that piercing and tattooing are sins. Should we ban them for everyone?

That's the beauty of freedom of religion. You don't get to tell other people what to believe and how to live according to those beliefs and they extend you the same courtesy. But when your beliefs start to be enshrined in policy and used as a tool of murder (which, I'm gonna bet, is considered a sin by, like, 99.9999999999% of the population) then they must be regulated. You understand...it's like racism. You're free to hate people of other races, but when you start instigating, you get your ass charged with a hate crime.

Mr. Unregistered Troll is typing madly today. It must have hit a nerve. It probably is Hateschild - she's just forgotten her password.

This survey is more interesting when you really get into the data! Generally i agree with @15, I wish i could see the crosstabs.

http://www.publicreligion.org/objects/up…

Also American Catholics continue to impress me in feeling loyal to their church but not to its leaders' dogmas.

@20 No, no, come on, that is a legitimate thing to talk about. No one, not even Dan, is claiming that anti-gay sentiment is preached across the board at every church every Sunday. Many, probably most churches broach the subject rarely, if ever. There is a whole lot else going on in their holy book besides the six verses that they construe as legitimizing anti-gay bigotry.

But when they do talk about homosexuality, what are they saying? It reminds me of a sermon I sat through at an evangelical church in Everett many years ago. The pastor, who had not preached on the topic before, decided it was time to inform the congregation as to the church's position on homosexuality. That sermon was chock full of degrading, dehumanizing bullshit and warped justification for treating gays and lesbians as lesser human beings, despite being couched in that old "love the sinner, hate the sin" rhetoric.

Now think about it. Most of the people in that congregation, especially the young people, lived sheltered, insulated lives and trusted that pastor implicitly. They don't talk about homosexuality and they don't know any (out) gay people. All they know is what this pastor said and claimed to be the truth. That one sermon created an attitude of bigotry that they will carry with them for years, possibly for the rest of their lives. It doesn't matter if it's once a week or once every ten years, preaching hatred of gays and lesbians has a real and palpable effect.

This is for our unregistered friend. Whose posts seem to carry an underlining source of self-hatred. It is sent with my kindest wishes for your peace. Remember that parables are to be listened to. Don't make the mistake of looking for a moral or instructions for conduct. Just listen. It is supposed to be both provocative and evocative, a metaphor-as-epiphany about the kingdom of God. It is to interpret you. Or as it is written "let him who has two ears listen".

Luke18:10-14, revised EFB

Here are these two characters going up to the temple to pray: the first a full fledged Pharisee and the second a petty tax officer.

The Pharisee stands there all to himself and makes a pointed prayer:

"God, I am so grateful for my specialness... that I'm not numbered among the thieves and cheats and adulterers of this world, and especially not among the likes of that petty tax officer back there."

"Every single week," the "upright" man continues, "I fast for two full days [instead of one]; and from everything I earn, I always donate my ten percent to charity."

Meanwhile the petty tax officer is standing off in a corner, and without even daring to look up to heaven [the gesture of prayer], he bangs himself on the breast and says, "O God show me some mercy, sinner that I am."

"Say what you will," Jesus added, "but I contend that this last fellow went back to his home [and family] reconciled-which is more than I'll say for the first man."

"This goes to show how self-promoters manage to disgrace themselves, and how the self-effacing end up saving face."

A modern version:

One day in synagogue
a rabbi and a cantor and a janitor
were preparing for the Day of Atonement.

The rabbi beat his breast and bowed his head
as said aloud, "I am nothing, I am nothing."

The cantor beat his breast and bowed his head
and said aloud, "I am nothing, I am nothing."

The janitor beat his breast and bowed his head
and said aloud, "I am nothing, I am nothing."

And the rabbi said to the cantor,
"Look who thinks he's nothing."

And lastly, another modern version:

Two men approached the holy place of prayer.
One man was grateful, but not grateful beyond words.

He rose the modest virtuoso: score in hand, flushed of heart and cheek.

He prayed artful and emotive, even confident: the huge, traditional fugue of gratitude and praise.
He breathed surprising fire for one his age into old inspired time-worn syllables.
He crescendoed emphasis at every word which said that God and God alone be blessed as all in all;
and though his art the second theme of strict
observance remained all but barely audible, and
consummately unstressed.

The other man forgot his psaltery upon the spot,
forgot there was a place of safety where he could stand
when the unfamiliar terror of prayer came over him.
Inert and crusted as the mud beneath his feet, he neither
fled nor stepped ahead.
He stood, eyes fixed upon the ground of his predicament,
shoulders bent against annihilation.

Jesus maybe mistook the tremble of his nether lip for a
whispered word ("mercy") but the truth is that the man
said no such thing.
He stood still and stared dumbstruck into the sickening
abyss between nothing and everything.

Jesus figured that God took the first man at his word
and probably was outwitted; and that the second man he took for dead so into the snot of his nostrils he breathed
the breath of life.

Religion is the problem. It is the solution to nothing. It is ignorance. It is hate and self loathing. It is myths and superstitions. And it's primitive roots are easily traceable.

The more I hear about this, the more proud I am that I followed Paul Constant's lead and had myself excommuincated from the Catholic church this spring. Best. Decision. Ever.

i have never been so murderously enraged by an internet troll. i'd gladly go to hell for beating the reeking shit out of that moron with a bent lead pipe. GLADLY.

@19: While I agree that the vast majority of people consider murder to be wrong, the number you just invented says that one in a TRILLION people consider murder not a sin. Since there are only about 7 billion people in the world, and several thousands of murderers at the very least, you should be more careful jamming on that "9" key next time.

Reading the question about how a person's church handled homosexuality, I'm curious as to whether respondents were responding about their personal church or their denomination as a whole. I'm a United Methodist, and I'm deeply ashamed about our denomination's stance on homosexuality - it's absurd. But the church I attend preaches inclusiveness and love, and our pastor is very clear about where she stands on the issue. Of course, we are a campus ministry, which means we're significantly more liberal than the average church.

That is not the point, @ 29.

It doesn't matter what either 'God' says or the CDC says. There is a huge debate as to what 'God" says: oral traditions recorded in ancient languages that don't have vowels, 5000+ ancient copies all different.... Anal sex is not a homosexual behavior it is a human behavior, plenty of heterosexuals participate in it. Heterosexuals are permitted to behave in "degrading and dehumanizing" behaviors that churches frown upon and be treated as equals under the law. Heterosexuals are allowed to be diagnosed as HIV+ and still be treated as equals under the law.

This is about ethical behavior. There is no justification for discrimination. Any person who does not want to be treated as a second class citizen, cannot discriminate against others and therefore seek to enforce discrimination. Any person who doesn't wish to be bullied for a perceived difference, cannot bully others.

Absolutely right, Dan. The church I grew up in calls gay people "blasphemous" for believing they were born gay, has on more than one occasion advocated physical violence against gays, had an electroshock therapy program going until the mid-90s that gay students were subjected to at the threat of expulsion, and on and on. They led the campaign to pass Prop 8 in California and then had the temerity to claim victimhood when there was a backlash. Most recently, one of their top leaders reiterated that God doesn't make people gay, and they can change if they really want to and have enough faith.

But no, they aren't responsible for bullying or the suicides of gay Mormons. That's a choice, too, isn't it?

36,

Nope. You're supposed to let them bounce off of each other and interpret you. You attempted to interpret it, and you attempted to interpret through my eyes as to how I see you. You attempted to find some moral to it. It isn't a morality tale, that would diminish it to a list of people whom we privately congratulate ourselves that we are not like. You attempted to find a code of prescribed behavior too. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't appear that you listened to what it had to say about you to you. It appears you just hammered off a response thinking that you're judged and therefore was required to justify.

If I was to sum it up in a few pithy statements about what it reveals to me, about me, it would be that I miss the groundless, unable to be earned, mercy that is freely offered to me. I forget that there is no "us" and "them," "insider" and "outsider" that despite the social maps that human societies, civil or religious, constructs I still subconsciously try to identify and sort us. The groundless, unable to be earned, mercy is for everyone. I can't earn it, I have to breathe it in and then blow it back out into the world. I can't keep it, it is for everyone.

It might tell you something different about yourself, though. Have a good day.

@40: Consistently well-informed, reasoned responses like this are why you are my favorite internet theologian. If only more of the oustpoken theists in this world were like you. Do you teach theology? I think you're eminently qualified.

--an agnostic in PDX

kim, I so love your writing. Thank you.

I'm accounting for the people who think that murder is only a sin sometimes, 33. Like our troll, who probably thinks the murder of reproductive healthcare providers is righteous. And just because people murder doesn't put them in the camp of those who think murder is not a sin. The most depraved probably think it is justified some of the time, and most of them probably still think it's wrong. /snark...it's a blog, not a stats class.

Really troll, that's the best you got for me? Guess we're on the same page then. You don't force your beliefs on anyone else, and you get to keep them. Now, about those laws banning gay marriage, and the public places displaying the ten commandments, and the nativity scenes on public property, and the conscience clauses, and teaching creationism in schools...

Dan Savage, what do you make of this NPR story?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story…

There's no transcript posted as of yet, but it's worth a listen.

@28: Now THAT'S a Jewish joke! I approve.

It looks like Alleged's on the rag today...but perhaps stuffing the rag in the wrong orifice, so to speak.

"Catholics were the most critical of their own churches' messages on homosexuality"

I was married n the Catholic Church. One of the vows in the Catholic Marriage Sacrament is to accept the children that God gives you. Kinda covers it don't you think?

Yes, reproductive healthcare providers who help 11-year-olds who have been raped by their father and women who just found out their baby was going to be born without a brain and families making the agonizing choice between the life of a mother of 4 living, breathing children and an unborn fetus who they hoped would be the 5th addition to their happy family (who would both likely die without intervention). And for your more radical brethren, who provide preventative birth control to those with enough conscience to know that they're not in a position raise a child and the adoption/foster care system is a mess (thanks to the same people). And to your even more radical brethren, who provide PAP smears to unmarried women so they don't DIE (http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/health/ce…; http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/…).

And I don't care if it's a "crushing burden" or not. You don't even know what that term means. You've never suffered a day of "burden" in your life. The state should not sponsor any religion(s). Full stop. Placing religious symbols on public property included. Funny how you pick on that one, though, and not the others which forcefully impose a certain group's beliefs on someone else. Apparently, even your little brain can comprehend how the others are truly forcing one group's beliefs on another group, which is prohibited by both the founding documents of our nation and the philosophies surrounding them.

:::my "clever" name would be: did you know that Thomas Jefferson coined the term "separation of church and state?:::

Dan I think you mean IGBP. Also, I'm pretty sure that the Catholic guilt is a factor in the self criticism... not that they're not superduper homophobic...

Anyone wanna go to a Judgment House this Halloween season and set kids straight? http://www.richlandbaptistchurch.org/jh.…

ALL religions are hate groups.

@53

"Homosexual "Marriage"?
In the entire history of the human race marriage has been between men and women.
Independent of whatever religious traditions, if any, the culture had.
Including in cultures where homosexual behavior was widespread and accepted.
Marriage defined as a male-female institution is ubiquitous to the human race."

All very true. On the other hand, it's also true that (until the 1890s) for the entire history of the human race, independent of religious traditions, women did not have the same rights as men. This includes cultures where women were valued and often held positions of power - but they were never anywhere close to equal to the male half of the population. The Greeks, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Aztecs, the Chinese, the Mayans, Native American cultures, Renaissance Europe, Japan, India....etc. etc. And it wasn't just cultural tradition either - there were strong messages in the major religions clearly relegating women to a lesser degree of authority (e.g. Genesis, First Timothy).

And yet, finally we gave women equal rights of men (at least in Europe, and in this country in 1920). Who were we to defy thousands of years of religious and cultural tradition across every inhabited continent? How dare we challenge the accepted wisdom of the ancients? And not just some ancients, but all of them?

Because it was the right thing to do. Because for all we owe the ancient world, we're better than they were, and it's our world now. And because civilization is about improvement and progress, not doing things the way they've been done for the last 6,000 years.

Perhaps the status of homosexuals in society today is something like the status of women in this country was 90 years ago. The majority of the population (including many women) OPPOSED giving women the right to vote. They (and all the ancients) were quite obviously wrong - maybe that's the case this time around.

@64: Oh, you mad.

being gay is not a religion.

I like it best when people ignore the unregistered troll, because I don't read his/her bullshit. Therefore, it detracts from the intelligent conversations.

@67 - Rewind:

Therefore, when people respond to the unregistered trolls bullshit, in my opinion, it detracts from the intelligent conversations.

@69: "a very intelligent comments" (sic)
Why don't you just an hero already? Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?