Comments

1
Jesus Christ.
2
It really is too damn bad that Slog doesn't have a dating service (and Dan won't match-make). GOIAGO and DYCMM are meant for each other.
3
DYCMM, holy shit, talk about personal issues.
4
Dear DYCMM, Fuck you. Fuck you up your stupid ass. Just because you married a pathetic manchild, probably only because he made enough money for you not to work, and then started passive aggresively denying him sex to express your dissatisfaction with our marriage, doesn't mean NCSO is anything like the man you married and then systematically began to drain the life out of.
Why don't you gro the fuck up and learn some communication skills?
5
Edit: should say "your marriage"
6
@4 She didn't say she was denying him sex, she said she has no desire to fuck someone who isn't an adult.
7
Pretty telling slip there, JNFinMN...
8
It sounds like DYCMM has some communication issues of her own to deal with before dispensing with the advice.
9
Concerning DYCMM, she has a point. If a woman is a stay at home mom with three kids, and then her husband comes home and whines that he doesn't get enough sex, it would put anybody off. Really it's all about communication and focusing on EACH OTHER's needs, be it her need to relax. If a guy really wants sex, he can make dinner that day, or put the kids to bed. It all evens out. They have both been working all day after all. I make dinner for my boyfriend even if I have worked and he hasn't. If the husband shows some appreciation through his actions, maybe she would be more willing. Give the woman a break, that's all I'm saying.

Also, good for that guy, though maybe he should have done it more honestly. At least he's happy! We only have one life to live.
10
@5 - HA! sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but really only sometimes. Lovely little slip there; thanks for brightening my afternoon.
11
I feel bad for the guy, truly, however, I sorta agree with the second letter. Women's sexual drives are generally more directly related to their moods & feelings in relation to their partner than men's, as well as more related to their general health. When a woman feels frustrated about issues (as noted in 2nd letter) or, even worse, unappreciated, she won't feel sexual. Also, if there are diagnosed or undiagnosed health issues (something with chronic fatigue?), she ain't gonna wanna.

That being said, I'm a woman in my 40's, and I hear more complaints from my peers about the lack of sex with their guys than complaints about the guys wanting more than they do. I believe that each person out there will each have a differing experience/opinion regarding the perennial mismatch of male and female sex drives.
12
Although DYCMM has a definite point, I do not think it applies to "No Catchy Sign Off." The guy hadn't had regular sex in ten freakin' years! It's a little hard to imagine his wife was not having sex with him for a decade because of any of the issues DYCMM raises.
13
It sounds to me like DYCMM and her boy-husband need some counseling. She's got a lot of resentment.
14
Look, she might be angry and resentful, but DYCMM is right. Isn't the whole point of being GGG about give AND take? Well, sorry, that give and take can't _just_ happen in the bedroom (or on the kitchen counter, or wherever). If hubby won't step it up and try something that he might not be "into" then why should his wife? Not saying it's the cause of No Catchy Sign Off's problem, but it's not an unfair question to ask "You've been asking for sex for 5 years and are getting no response - what has your wife been asking of you for 5 years and while getting no response?"
15
As a woman in my 40s can I just say women like DYCMM have issues that have nothing to do with the men they're actually married to. They want George Clooney (who I would bet doesn't live up to being George Clooney himself!) and they're married to Joe Average. And if their husband is doing all or any of these things and they aren't telling him then they have no one to blame but themselves. This passive/aggressive thing is enough to drive anyone over the edge. NCSO sounded like he'd gone above & beyond the old school try & the Mrs. wasn't gonna play nice. Normally, I don't condone cheating but in his case I'd make an exception.
16
Oh crap, this must be the "penis hater"? You know the one, the 20,000+ words, rinse, repeat, spit, spit again, never ever swallow so don't even ask cause I'm am so not putting THAT in my mouth anyway "penis hater"!

Yeah, that one! Can you say untreatable psychotic bi-polar P.M.S.?
17
What fucking decade is DYCMM writing to us from? "We spend our days surrounded by [children's] body fluids and mess. When you come home [from work]..." Christ, why not complain that he's smoking too many cigars and spending too much time at the Moose Lodge while you're at it?
18
This is what it sounds like when doves cry.
19
Everybody's so busy ragging on DYCMM they seem to have missed the fact that GOIAGO apparently put way more effort and time into getting his rocks off with (and pleasing) his new lady friend than with the woman he was married to. Yet he didn't find his wife divorce-worthy until he had someone else as a confirmed back up.

Personally I found that more fucked up than DYCMM's anger issues. Same with "No Catchy Sign Off." If you're unhappy, denied and miserable, if you've done everything in your power to discover the cause of the problem, and tried to remedy it to no avail...then LEAVE. Do everybody a favor and end the relationship as cleanly as possible, for its own reasons, not because you've got someone new waiting to bang your softening erection in the wings.

Eventually every new hotness becomes the old (not-so) reliable. Or YOU'LL become the "Huh, it was a lot more exciting when we were doing this illicitly," and she'll find a new hotness of her own.

A lifelong sexual relationship requires a lifetime of effort (though I'm certainly not excusing the respective wives here from their share of work either).
20
Well, both GOIAGO and DYCMM are RIGHT: it's bad to be chained to a woman (or a man -- let's not be sexist!) who won't have sex with you no matter what you do; and it's bad to be chained to a man (or a woman -- let's not be sexist!) who simply won't keep the house clean and take care of his/her own personal hygiene.

Communication skills: a must. Everywhere, anywhere.

What both GOIAGO and DYCMM don't know, of course, is if the LW they both address is in the same situation as they are. And neither do we.

We don't know if his wife stopped having sex with him because he is unhygienic and unappealing. Even the fact that he has a girlfriend doesn't mean much: New Relationship Energy dictates that even if he's a dirty pig to his wife he would still shave, shower, and use his deodorant for the new girl (but maybe this new girl will have a sore disappointment later on when he shows his true nature...).

Or maybe this isn't at all the case -- maybe she stopped having sex with him for some totally different reason, hormonal, psychological or otherwise, and now he, despite all his efforts, his constant cleanliness, the forests of flowers he bought for her, etc. etc. etc., still doesn't get any sex. There are people in such dire straights, and the LW in question might be one of them. In which case, he does have a problem, and I pity him: it's not an enviable situation. I hope he finds a solution (and I agree with Dan: cheating usually doesn't stand the test of time, so he'll have to deal with a shitstorm at some point).

GOIAGO and DYCMM are meant for each other, as one of the first commenters said. Both jump to the conclusion that the LW's situation is exactly the same as theirs.

Whereas, for all I know, maybe his situation is totally different. Who says there are only TWO possibilities? :-)
21
I call bullshit on DYCMM. Sure, I buy it that women aren't hot for their husbands and therefore don't want to fuck them, but blaming it on him not carrying his load is really about making yourself feel better about not being attracted to your husband. How much less guilt you must feel when you can say, "well, I would fuck him but he leaves his socks on the floor and doesn't wash the dishes and ..."

I have seen it time and again. Woman says man has to shape up. Man shapes up. Woman still doesn't want to fuck him. Why these women can't admit to simply not being attracted to their husbands I don't understand. If you're not into him, let him go. Either split up already or open it up. I have a couple of friends in this situation, and after putting in the effort they've since said "fuck it" when the old excuses gave way to new and improved excuses.

My wife tried to pull this one out on me (one of many reasons she's turned to), but abandoned this line when I reminded her I do the laundry, dishes, house maintenance, yard maintenance, gardening, auto repair, volunteer in my kids' classrooms, AND am the sole source of income for the family. Only nine years to go before the kids leave the house, and I'll follow shortly after
22
DYCMM:

Did it occur to you to write this letter to your husband?
23
U MAD DYCMM?
24
@21,

I'd call that emotional abuse. It's the same thing if someone calls his/her partner too ugly to fuck. If your partner is so imperfect, he/she (supposedly) doesn't deserve intimacy or sex, then just fucking leave.
25
The second letter writer has a good point. Being gross is not sexy. It's a huge turn off. You can point this out over and over but the person being gross often thinks the other person has the problem. Some advice to everyone; when dealing with ones intimate partner; regardless of gender, one must always make an effort. And for guys who think making money entitles one to come home and act like the gross kids your wife is stuck at home with; you’re lucky a woman was willing to have kids with you in the first place.
26
DYCMM is just another case of someone mistaking their subjective opinions for laws of of physics.

A guy that cuts his toenails on the couch isn't childish, he just has different values than a middle or upper-class woman who's world view is dictated by soap commercials and fashion magazines.

Everything has to be clean and perfect all the time for DyCMM because she's bought into the propaganda corporations create to get her to buy products.

A guy that misses his nose hair occasionally is human. And it's OK for that to be a turn off. A guy that forgets to trim his nose hair isn't breaking a universal law, so calm the fuck down about it, and get him a trimmer. If DYCMM lets herself and those around her be human, she'd have a better relationship with her husband, and wouldn't go around writing such bitter letters.
27
@24 Who are you talking to/about, Keshmeshi, delwalk, or his wife? People in that situation hang on because they want to be there for their kids, and they are willing to forgo their own feelings (assuming it isn't unbearable) for the sake of not disrupting the living situation of their kids. I agree there is emotional abuse, and forgive me if I've misunderstood you, but it seems like you're implying the husband is the one who's at fault. I think, in delwalk's case, as well as the guy in the first letter, their wives are the abusers, by denying them something as fundamental as sex. A lot of women deny their husbands sex, and while the "you're a child, you're messy" excuse is convenient, I think it has more to do with women who feel resentment, coupled with a need to control situations, and the ONE thing they can use to really *get* their husbands is sex, or lack thereof. I don't think women consciously realize/acknowledge this, but once the kids are no longer babies, the "I'm too tired for sex" excuse just doesn't fly. My guess is, if a woman is tired after running around after her kids all day, her husband is just as tired from his day at work. I think is more a control issue, and less an actual physical exhaustion issue.
28
You can only deny someone sex if it's assumed you owe it to them.
29
scarletjinx @11 said: "That being said, I'm a woman in my 40's, and I hear more complaints from my peers about the lack of sex with their guys than complaints about the guys wanting more than they do."

Ex divorce lawyer here; represented both men and women. I can't speak for others but a shitload of my "men stopped asking for sex" cases were, on closer investigation, really "I got tired of hearing no so I stopped asking" cases. It was easier to be miserable and resign themselves to celibacy than to be a supplicant without a hope and be crushed by the endless No-No-No responses.
30
Anyone who agrees with the second letter is a dumbass. Sure, it's bad to do the things she describes, but what indication do we have that the guy in the sexless marriage was doing them? None whatsoever. If his failure to bathe/clean the house was ruining her sex drive, she mighta said something in the past ten years. I doubt that's what it's about. Guys who wipe snot on their clothes & don't use deodorant are not as common as DYCMM seems to think -- sounds like somebody bringing their own weird issues to bear on somebody else's problems.

Anyway, it's rather insulting to claim that all instances of a woman losing her sex drive are caused by male housework failures. A woman's sex drive isn't some sort of interactive chore chart that lights up when all the dishes are done & the socks are in the hamper; no doubt more than one woman has managed to fuck in a messy house.
31
I've worked with a lot of men who complain that they don't have sex, or enough sex, with the wife. Quite a few have said things like "She doesn't have time. She works all day and she's raising the kids." And what's he doing? Playing golf? Who knows what's going on with the guy in this week's Savage Love, but DYCMM hit the nail on the head.

Intersting how everyone jumps on her because she's a women expressing anger.
32
Canuck @ 27 raised a point that I agree with: if she's a stay-at-home mom then looking after the kids is her job. Lots of folks have exhausting jobs that they hate, we don't necessarily deny sex to our spouses. (Then again, in defense of the wife, Canuck, being shut within the same four walls is debilitating. I'm sure that the husband doesn't find his workplace a big turn-on either.)

I agree with the rest of the post, too. I've noted over the years that sex-denying spouses who take the position that "sex will flow" as soon as X, Y or Z on a list are addressed just add more shit to the list as soon as the previous requirements are met.
33
DYCMM, oh, DYCMM. So much self-righteous indignation covering so much failure. All I can say if, if she's allowing her children to cover her house in "mess" (never mind the, frankly speaking, disgusting "bodily fluids), then I have to say that she's far from the prize that she believes. I hope that his paycheck is worth it, though.
34
I don't buy it DYCMM. Women just fall out of lust with guys for ... god knows what reason, and the entitled to sex thing, just turns them off even more. It's just a perfect storm of resentment.

The perfect ever present guys are just as likely fall victim to bed death as the unkempt douchebag men.
35
@26: You're just a shill for the nose-hair-trimmer industrial complex, aren't you?
36
Isn't it amazing how many guys here applaud when a letter comes in that says "My wife gained 30 pounds after bearing my children and I don't find her sexy anymore. Isn't she somehow contractually required to stay thin and young for me and aren't I justified in screwing around because she got fat?" and then call a woman a bitch for complaining about men who expect their mommies- er, wives- to clean up after them and remind them of every little thing and then whine when they don't get laid for it, and then ask about cheating again. Here's a hint from the real world, the cruel and unfair real world: If you can't be bothered to shave then neither can we. And if you are tired after 8 or 10 hours at work with a prick boss, don't be surprised when 16 hours a day taking care of your house and kids wears us out too. And if you don't feel sexy after watching a chick flick about a guy ten times hotter than you who says all the right things and talks about his feelings, then don't act surprised when we don't want a quickie after seeing the blurred out vintage Playboy on Pawn Stars.
37
charlie @36: if you're going to make allegations like there's a fat-hating chorus of adultery enablers here then you'd better provide examples. And I notice you were the first and only person to call her a bitch. And I also notice that you just assume that the husband is a self-centered prat and we're the ones being nasty and jumping to conclusions?

Ask yourself, if someone here advocated a husband refusing to have sex with his wife because some babe in a movie is "ten times hotter than [her] and who says all the right things" would you be his unrepentant advocate? Yeah, thought not.

38
It's tough to make any of these judgment calls when you are grappling with your own relationship. But let me just say: I see DYCMM in both of my brothers' relationships. How their wives can manage to screw them when they behave like 13 year olds all the time is beyond me. They are soooo gross. Body fluid issues, hair issues, whiny bitch issues. I am shocked they both managed to find wives and to procreate.

Maybe DYCMM wrote in a general way that gets a lot of people's backs up. But I see women in those relationships ALL the time and I always secretly wonder what they did to deserve lifelong partnerships with grown 13 year olds.
39
Hm, a lot of hating on the woman, not so much on the guy, here. But it looks to me like they both had big honking issues with communication. And yeah, it's okay for the guy to be angry but not the woman?

The best piece of advice I have ever heard, hands down. was "Don't make every kiss a demand for sex."

In other words, express a lot of affection, kissing, hugging, and then *not* the sex as often as the sex. That takes the pressure off, way off. I remember one relationship I had where I never could even initiate sex cause my partner was all over me the moment I didn't move away. And that never let me express my own wishes or feelings and that got irritating after a while.

Then again, I was on the other side of that in another relationship, where my partner objected to an advance on my part, and boy did I withdraw on that... waited for my partner to make the next move and they really didn't.

Communication, and lots of non-sex affection to take the pressure off. That works much better for me.
40
@27,

It could be that the husband is at fault, but it's irrelevant when you bring that kind of emotional abuse into it. Telling someone that they have to change (outside the normal standards of hygiene and respectful behavior) in order to get good treatment is abusive. If DYCMM's husband is *that* bad, she needs to leave or work out some other kind of deal (like the two of them no longer having a romantic relationship even if they're staying together for the kids).

And now I'm starting to wonder how many hetero relationships AREN'T power struggles.

@26,

While I know what it's like to live with that kind of control freak, it's still unreasonable to expect people to give up their preference for living in a clean, comfortable home. I've also run across one too many straight men who very much enjoy having a clean, organized home, but can't be arsed to contribute to it.
41
Raising kids is hard WHAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Condoms, learn to us 'em.
42
If your husband turns you off so badly that you can't stand the thought of sex with him, why stay married to him? If your wife refuses sex with you on a regular basis, for whatever reason, and it's making you miserable, why stay married to her? I don't understand this "it's for the kids" crap. Like the kids are better off with two people who hate each other? Just divorce already, and find yourself a better life.
43
@40 "And now I'm starting to wonder how many hetero relationships AREN'T power struggles."

They're very different, that's for sure (well I can't speak as to relationships between gay men). At least in the ones I've been to, there were very different assumptions. Hetero relationships have an entire social dimension of expectations, not just from the person in the relationship, but *also* from family, friends & society. I find myself struggling against all of those assumptions, and that has derailed one major relationship so far. With experience I'm doing better, but ugh. Yeah, it feels like a struggle so much of the time, I'm pretty much done with it :-P

The relationships I have had with women had completely different issues and a really refreshing absence of outside expectations, which form a lot more pressure than you think (until you get out from it and look back at it with some shock as you finally see what was going on).
44
I give you the words of the former Blogger Shasta McNasty:
"Any couple that can afford two divorce lawyers can afford one maid service."

In terms of house cleanliness etc. it often comes down to degree and motive, doesn't it? Is your spouse utterly uninterested in sex because the house is a sty? Nobody can argue with that. Are they uninterested because there's some housework that can wait until later? (And housework is never done, remember? It just IS.) Then it's just an excuse.

delwalk @24 has it right, but errs in ascribing the problem just to women. I've noticed over the years that if one partner is constantly submitting fresh demands for change then the problem isn't the partner that they are constantly trying to change, it's them. They might have problems, they might not be in love any more ... the reasons aren't that important because the dynamic is always the same:
"I am no longer happy. I blame you. Change this. .... Well, that didn't work. I am still unhappy. It must be you. Change that. ... Well, that didn't work ....."

45
I don't know what's wrong with straight people. I'm a housekeeper, and my (female) boss works probably more than 90 hours a week. Her husband does nothing, and acts as if he's so entitled. He clearly wasn't ever taught about childcare or housework growing up, and he's totally clueless. Because she's exhausted and has four young kids, she feels pretty much stuck with the status quo, at least for a few more years. But he's basically like another child she has to raise.
When my unhappily married religious parents both worked, my mom actually working more hours than dad, he couldn't be bothered to prepare a simple meal or even do the dishes; he would wait until she got home and then ask her what's for dinner. One day she got fed up and went on strike, but he never learned, and to this day she refuses to cook for him. And he still doesn't know how to cook! Or do the dishes... Yet she would never even think of leaving him- unless he had an affair.
So I think men in this situation who are too "traditional" aka stupid to shape up or just leave like adults should just go ahead and do the dumb self destructive thing and have the affair, give their wives (who are too "traditional" to communicate and/or leave like adults themselves) the reason they need to go out and find happiness elsewhere.
Also, women may be naturally better caregivers, multitaskers, organizers, etc., but people who don't encourage their sons to hold a baby doll or dry a dish once in a while (for fear it may queer them, no doubt) are not helping them overcome whatever might be holding back their ability to be better spouses.
46
Seeker6079, yeah, being a stay home mum has it's "hair-ripping out" moments, for sure (I was one for 22 years/3 kids, just back at work now that the youngest is 14), but on those days when I was going nuts, I had to remind myself that it was my choice to be at home, and I should get my sorry bum out of the house and around lots of people pretty fast (city girl living in the country, sigh)...I think you have to basically not blame other people for your frustration, you have to deal with it yourself. Obviously, communication is key, too. Men (sorry to generalize) often have slightly lower hygiene/house-cleaning standards than women do, so sometimes you actually have to spell it out that putting one's fingernail clippings in the flower vase (really, he did it) is not an alternative to the trash can.

@39 BEG, in my experience, if men are having all the sex they want, it's a lot easier to "just" kiss. It's when they are repeatedly denied that every sideways glance becomes a seduction...just my 2 cents.

Keshmeshi, don't know if power struggles are limited to hetero relationships, but I think attitude is huge: People who are fearful and need a controlled environment in which to live, often seek to control their children and husbands. People who are happy with their lives, and are relaxed and easy going, usually don't tend to "sweat the small stuff," and don't, in turn, use sex as a means of control.
47
Canuck @ 46: "@39 BEG, in my experience, if men are having all the sex they want, it's a lot easier to "just" kiss. It's when they are repeatedly denied that every sideways glance becomes a seduction...just my 2 cents."

Sex is a necessity, like food, for most folks. And most folks are willing to linger over a meal if they haven't been starved, no? Otherwise they leap on the plate and gobble like pigs. Most of the sex-starved spouse files I saw had terrible romance/sex/intimacy frames towards the end simply because there was a horrid, desperate, frantic seizing of rare opportunity. And bad grace was common too: the phrase that kept coming up to describe those rare couplings at the ass end of the relationship was "charity fuck", often accompanied by adjectives like "grudging".
48
HK @45, it was "take your kid to work" day here today, so my 14 year old son got to miss school. When he got up, after he made us both lattes (always teach your children to make your coffee...), I told him he could unload the dishwasher and straighten up the kitchen, for the "housewife" portion of his "work" day! And I had to laugh when you said some people don't ask their sons to do housework for fear it will "queer them"...after the kitchen was cleaned and we stopped in at my workplace, I took him for his first uni-brow waxing... :)
49
always teach your children to make your coffee
I did.

She won't.

Dammit dammit DAMMIT!
50
seeker@44, I like how you put that:
>> "I am no longer happy. I blame you. Change this. .... Well, that didn't work. I am still unhappy. It must be you. Change that. ... Well, that didn't work ....." >>

If only people could see that it works better to say:
"I am no longer happy. I am changing the following about my life: losing weight, getting up earlier, having sex with other people.... You're welcome to join me in these new activities if you want to."

I can't guarantee that it works for every marriage. But it certainly kicked my marriage's butt into high gear when I heard that from my husband. (Not in a single conversation, more like six months' worth of many many conversations and watching him implement the changes he wanted.) Now we're in a totally different place than we were a year ago. And, as far as I can tell, further from divorce than we were before we started talking about change. The difference is that he focused on changing himself, not me.

51
Canuck @48, very cute story. Did the video earlier today inspire the waxing?

I'm almost trying to cover my private parts as I type this. LOL
52
@49 Seeker6079 Maybe you didn't start young enough? Back in the dark ages, before you could program those coffee makers, waiting 10 minutes for my caffeine in the company of 2 children under the age of 5 was akin to sitting in Dante's 7th circle of hell. So, I told them there was this very dangerous, black thing made by Germans sitting on the counter, and if certain things were done in sequence, they could make a dark liquid come out, like a "Polly Pees" doll, but better! I mean, if they're going to get up before god, they might as well make themselves useful.

despicable me, ah, the video was more of a cringe-inducing reminder. After I discovered he had shaved (!!!) the centre strip of his eyebrows, I though it was time to introduce him to a professional. He put on a big show of "oh cancel it, cancel it!" when we got there, and walked out a convert...
53
Hmm.... DYCMM. When I read NCSO's letter, he didn't include anything about dishes, housework, or blowing his nose. What he *did* say was that he & his wife had spoken at length about their differing sex drives & had reached an impasse.

Maybe some guys want to use his letter to blame their spouses, and perhaps some frustrated women (*ahem*) want to use his letter as proof that husbands are unworthy of sex. I doubt that either of those were NCSO's intention or that he cares about your issues. He has his own specific problem & wants a solution to it.

Now, if you have a specific problem... like, I don't know, maybe your own husband acts like one of your children & you're not interested in fucking a man-child, then why don't you write to Dan, tell him your situation and ask for his advice? And if you don't need his advice because you know what you need to do, why aren't you doing it instead of whining to Dan about someone else's problem that isn't yours, has only a distant relationship to your problem, and whose solution won't help you out at all?
54
Hmm.... DYCMM. When I read NCSO's letter, he didn't include anything about dishes, housework, or blowing his nose. What he *did* say was that he & his wife had spoken at length about their differing sex drives & had reached an impasse.

Maybe some guys want to use his letter to blame their spouses, and perhaps some frustrated women (*ahem*) want to use his letter as proof that husbands are unworthy of sex. I doubt that either of those were NCSO's intention or that he cares about your issues. He has his own specific problem & wants a solution to it.

Now, if you have a specific problem... like, I don't know, maybe your own husband acts like one of your children & you're not interested in fucking a man-child, then why don't you write to Dan, tell him your situation and ask for his advice? And if you don't need his advice because you know what you need to do, why aren't you doing it instead of whining to Dan about someone else's problem that isn't yours, has only a distant relationship to your problem, and whose solution won't help you out at all?
55
Appy Polly Loggies on the x2 post.
56
How do you keep it going with work, kids etc?

Once a month, hotel room, bottle of wine and a joint. Marijuana is the best way to get your horn up.

Oh, and marry a sexy Asian American chick, they don't go to hell after a couple of puppies and/or 30 years and know how to take care of themselves.
57
Any guesses how long DYCMM's husband has been seeing somebody on the side?
58
Good for him Canuck. I love to see teenage boys get in touch with their feminine side and become converts on occasion.
59
I know, despicable me, it's good for them to see they can do things without needing to label it.

Yikes, avast2006, she's one hella bitter, no? I can't imagine anyone with that amount of anger enjoying much of anything. And if he doesn't have one quite yet, he's seriously thinking about it.
60
@46, that wasn't my experience. At first, everything led to sex, and I was fine with that... then there were a couple times when I was too tired or whatever... At that point he said to me, I should do that even if I didn't feel like it -- which really took me aback, but I said sure (being the silly 25 yo I was) -- and after that every time I had sex when I didn't feel like it, but did so anyway, I wound up resenting the fact that he was perfectly happy with sex with a partner that *didn't want it then*. And yeah, every kiss still led to a demand for sex which I also started resenting. I never got a chance to initiate, and never got a chance to air out my viewpoint on that. Yes, I needed to communicate this, but I didn't know how. I do things differently now, but back then that's what happened.

Never had that kind of dynamic with my girlfriends.

I'm hard put to describe the dynamic, "power struggle" is maybe too simplistic. I *wanted* to live and let live -- I'm a very laid back person and I've found that to be much harder to do in the hetero relationships I've had. I have to do a lot more conscious work that flies in the face of usual assumptions. With women, there are no ground rules, no built in assumptions, so there's always negotiation (or at least IME) which I really appreciate.

61
Kersy @ 28. It IS owed! Monogamy isn't abstinence. If you expect sexual loyalty from your partner, then you've got to attempt to meet their sexual needs. Demanding sexual exclusivity of someone and then not having a sexual relationship in no less a violation of the terms of monogamy than cheating.

And on another note, DYCMM is full of shit. I know women like you, I've dated women like you. You line out the terms like they're so simple, like if your man would just change a few of those exceptionally annoying habits you'd be satisfied enough and appreciative.

Doesn't happen that way. Your man changes himself to please you and you find other things to rag on him about. The very tone of you letter, the friggin giant LIST you've compiled betrays you. You won't be satisfied with him. Not if he stops tracking mud, not if he clips his toenails better. You've got a list 10 lightyears long that he can never hope to achieve, and when he's done them you'll come up with new ways that he's failing to live up to your expectations of adult behavior.

Get over yourself. Your habits piss him off too, but he doesn't use them as an excuse to treat you as worthless. He deals with them, which is what people in adult relationships do. You're the child.
62
If I may borrow a line from Dan Savage: "I'm so glad I'm a fag."
63
Don't YOU call me Mommy...sounds like she's been getting too much of her world view from "the books we read, the movies we watch" and not enough from having an actual brain. Word of advice DYCMM, Carrie Bradshaw is not real, the producers of Kate Hudson's movies don't give a shit about empowering you or giving you good information, and in real life that chick in Knocked Up would have (and should have) gotten an abortion!
64
@46 Canuck, what a refreshing voice of reason!
65
Remember fellows: Sex isn't a sharing, loving moment between you and your partner(s).

It's a reward for being a good boy.

Run from this woman if you see her. Run like the wind.
66
Canuck @52: problem was, in those days I was up and reading or working two to three hours before I woke my daughter. By the time she was up the morning half-pot coffee was long made and drunk. She only asked how to do it this year because she wanted to bring me breakfast in bed on my birthday, the sweetheart. (I naturally keep the note that went with it.)

Canuck @others: love your stories.

BEG@60: That sucks big time; he had no subtlety and sounds greedy as hell. Good to see that your older sense sees "I should do that even if I didn't feel like it" as the douchebag bf warning flare that it is. "Power struggle" probably doesn't fit as well as "controlling, self-centred asshole, best dumped". Anybody who accepts that you don't have a right to keep your body to yourself sometimes is as bad or worse than somebody who figures that they have a right to arbitrarily ration sexuality within their relationship.
67
I don't have a problem with a marriage ending, after trying to find a solution without success. I do have a problem when one partner cultivates a "wonderful" relationship outside of the marriage, so that their world is ideal once they've left, leaving the remaining spouse to pick up the pieces of their shattered life. Regardless of why the marriage ended.

It just seems like a very dickish thing to do. Therefore, I have no sympathy for the first LW.
68
Frau Blucher @67: That really depends on whether or not the spouse left behind was open to having the marriage cultivated to produce a wonderful relationship, no? If the departing spouse, male or female, spent years saying, "look, stop, sit with me, be with me and tend the fire for a while" and their spouse kept saying no because of work, housework, complaints, demands, (etc.) then the departing spouse can hardly be condemned for finding somebody that does say yes and being happy when they do. Are you really taking the position that you can only leave your spouse when you're moving to an unhappy relationship and that anything else is "dickish"? Kind of a puritan ethic, isn't it? "Finding happiness only counts if you're not happy!"
69
48

damn that IS funny
70
@68 - In the wonderful world you describe (which is far from reality based), after many opportunities of communication, counseling, etc, you might have a point. In the world you portray, one partner has talked and talked to no satisfactory results, so therefore, finding your "wonderful" love is a-okay. Why did the talking stop there? Why not finish it by ending the marriage? Because you think it all right at that point to deceit and find YOUR love, while you leave your partner to continue thinking you're okay with the status quo?

Reality is, most of the people that find that "wonderful" life partner while still married did so under the cover of massive deceit. And I seriously have to question the validity of "wonderful love" from mere moments "stolen" when not seriously addressing your issues at home. In essence, it is "cultivating" a second life without giving your partner the benefit of moving on. Yes. It. Is. And, yes, it is a dickish thing to do. It's called honesty. Dan has advocated it on many occasions.

There's nothing "puritan" about ending one chapter of your life before starting a new one. Many, many people do just that. And, for the record, I'm a gay male (far from puritanical, by any means). I've literally done more than my share of sexual escapades. I just believe that it's a matter of respect for another, respect for yourself and certainly a questionable character trait of the deceiving offender, if I were the mistress/lover.

So, you're free to support such deceitful activity. I'm free not too. It simply boils down to what each of us feels is appropriate behavior for our individual lives. Nothing more.
71
@BEG, agree with seeker, that guy sounds awful, sorry you had to go through that (sheesh, the stuff we do when we're young and haven't found enough of our "voice" yet...) I guess when I made my comment, I was assuming a reasonable, caring spouse as a starting point, and I do think in long marriages, when the frequency of sex diminishes, there is a kind of desperation that happens after a while...

Ah seeker6079, that's sweet (so cute when they bring you breakfast in bed), and great that you kept the note. I have one that our son wrote to Santa, it says "thanks for always being there for me" (?!)

Evn@64 My family thinks I'm overly dramatic and sarcastic, so thank you for your vindicating comment!
72
@68 - As a follow up, I want to state, I'm not against sex outside of marriage. Not in the least. Especially when it is mutually agreed upon. What I am against is one spouse telling the other (as they head out the door to work in the morning) - "I love you honey, kissy-kissy" only to get behind closed doors with your mistress later that day and discuss how much you love them and can't wait for the day to leave your wife.

In my opinion, and this is only my opinion, I find that to be a questionable character trait.

If you find yourself in that scenario, do your spouse a favor, and end it before you decide to get more involved with the mistress.
73
67/70: yes. The guy sounds like a douchebag. What would he have done if Ms. Wonderful New Girl hadn't been ready for him to leave his wife for her? Carried on the affair for years behind his wife's back? Got along with his trophy wife shopping elsewhere? I get the overwhelming impression that he is one of those people who just can't handle being FUCKING SINGLE for a year or two. People like that frighten and disturb me, they will do absolutely anything (like lie to their wives while cultivating a new relationship) to avoid being on their own and having to deal with the yawning chasms within their souls.

As for the second letter - projection much? Sounds like somebody needs to put down the Twilight, grab the husband and head to marriage counseling.
74
@73 - Good point. And, I agree that many people can't stand their own company. They jump from one relationship to another, never taking a break between. If ever there was an example of co-dependency, there you have it.

I have been in two, long term relationships. One for 8 years and my current one of 9 years. I was single for 3 years between the first and the second relationships. I took the time to learn to enjoy my own company. Dated many people. Made many new friends. Re-connect with old friends and family. By the time I entered into my second relationship, I was pretty well grounded and approached it with a more mature attitude. At least I think I can say that, 9 years later after being with the same partner.

I often believe that once-a-cheater-always-a-cheater. Now, that isn't the case every, single time, I realize. But just ask Tiger Woods why he continued to cheat and he'll tell you, "because he never got caught." Many people that have cheated will tell you the same. In other words, it becomes easier to deceive than to be honest with your spouse. I guess what I'm saying is I respect someone more for their honesty than for their ability to deceive.
75
@74 I'm no doubt generalizing here, but I think men, more often than women, seem to need the security of a relationship, and will often choose a bad relationship over the uncertainty of being single. I also think that sometimes men (in straight relationships) have a hard time being the one to end things, and so subconsciously do something that will be a deal-breaker. I watched this happen with some friends of ours. They were in the end stages of their marriage, he seemed "checked out," she was still telling people they were going to work it out. He had an affair in these last days, and she did a 180 and kicked him out. The sad part was that he immediately became the "bad guy," when, of the two, he was the cool, stable, laid back one, while she had enough "issues" to fill a textbook. She had been looking at how her treatment of him had contributed to their marriage ending, right up until the affair, and then the self-reflection stopped, and 100% of the blame went to him. It also lost him a lot of sympathy from friends, who had managed to avoid taking sides up until that point. Yeah, ultimately, I think the men who have affairs, and establish something new before leaving their marriage are really fearful of being alone, and don't do the "growing" that you mentioned.
Tiger Woods is a different can of worms entirely, IMO, I think that kind of compulsive fucking around was a way to escape the weird, hyper-controlled circumstance that was his upbringing and adult life.
76
Though, to my knowledge, DYCMM's husband hasn't asked for advice, I have some for him: DTMFA.

Who could stand to live with such a critical, demeaning individual? And funny that she doesn't want to be called Mommy, but her solution to the letter writer is to put him in time-out. If anyone is doing infantilizing in that relationship, it's her.

And nice to know, too, that she's shared your husband's perceived shortcomings with all of her friends. Really makes it crystal clear how much love and respect she has for her life partner.

I fail to understand why people trapped in a miserable marriage want to wait until they think the kids are old enough before they split up. As the child of parents who divorced when I was in my teens, I don't disregard the effects it has on children. But I have to say, living in a house filled with hate and acrimony, or even bitter silence, was much worse.
77
As Dan has said many times, a woman with a low sex drive will never run out of additional requirements for her husband to have sex with her. Different levels of sex drive mean that the people are not compatible, and the only answer is to break up. Short of testosterone supplements or something, there's not much you can do about that. No point in wasting time trying to "work things out."
78
"And funny that she doesn't want to be called Mommy, but her solution to the letter writer is to put him in time-out. If anyone is doing infantilizing in that relationship, it's her."

One thing that has come up on these "housework" threads here and elsewhere is how the housework is done. I've seen couples where the husband starts to do housework but is pretty much bullied out of it because he's "not doing it right". The wife always seems to be miserable: first because he's not doing it the way she wants, and then because there's a power struggle over how, and then because he has said "to hell with this" and walked away from a situation he can never win and she sees this as abandoning her, and then again when she has to cope with doing it all herself. All of us, male or female, know that feeling of, "well if only your way will do then you can goddamned do it". I've never seen the problem go the other gender way, largely because boys aren't brainwashed to believe that Keeping a Good House is THEIR RESPONSIBILITY! and told that their way is the ONLY way to keep house, whereas a lot of girls and women are. They're made miserable and that just gets passed along. And too damned many boys are brought up to believe that if a woman does it once then it's never their problem again.
79
It seems to me like alot of people here are sex positive and are automatically against anyone who they view as sex negative... My sex life has been in the toilet for jesus about 2 years now and being deployed sure isn't helping it. My husband and I have talked about it until we are blue in the face it doesn't make me want to, and I can give to him because I think he deserves it, but if I'm not enjoying it he's not enjoying it as much as we used to enjoy it together... Mind you I said deserves it, not entitled to it... He's a good man, and if he's not the same man I married 7 years ago well after 2 kids I'm not the same woman either.

That being said The second LW has a point, if you don't make an effort to be at least hygienic, I'm not going to fuck you, I don't care how much I love you, brush your teeth, wash you body and your hair, make sure there is no nose hair coming out of the wood work, and don't TRY to Gross me out that's not productive to either of us...
80
@75 - Again, all very good points. All, which I agree. And, like I mentioned, I'm not sex-negative (not by any means), I'm just saying that if there is extramarital sex going on, there should be some agreement, either spoken or unspoken. It should never come as a complete surprise to just the one spouse. And, it should never be a "gotcha" moment or an "I told you this would happen..." for the non-offending spouse, without already having some kind of idea.
81
I understand why the second letter may piss people off, but however it makes you feel, it *did* raise a good point that bears repeating.

If you go into a relationship with fairly good standards of grooming and hygene, and then, down the line when things get comfortable, just let it go, it sends a signal to your partner that you just don't think they're worth the effort anymore.

Keeping yourself put-together never hurt anyone, and it's a way of telling the person you're with that you respect them.

82
@19 I've read that men typically won't get out of a relationship without a backup. That's because men need women more than women need men...for many of the reasons expressed in letter number 2. And even for men that have those things down, they need women because women provide men with emotional support they just don't get from their buddies as well as sexual support. Women typically get out without a backup because they start to see men as nothing but hassle the longer they're with them. IN GENERAL. I know that my bf needs a gf more than I need a bf. I can get all my needs met without a relationship because I've got friends for the emotional stuff and it's easy to get men into bed without the attachment of a relationship.

I just love the hell out of my bf, so that's why I'm in my relationship. Before I met him, though, all that stuff above was why I was fairly anti-relationships.
83
@78: I sympathize with the stereotypical "dude" side -- that is, having to do housework a particular way and being bullied about how incompetent he might be.

That said, *some*times it's a cunning passive-aggressive strategy of worming out of work ... "I'm being made to do this, so I'll do it half-assed and aggravate her controlling ass into kicking me out of it." Maybe such guys think they're doing good work -- she gets to feel like she tried, her superior ways have been re-asserted, everyone's happy.

As always, it varies from case to case. Some ladies REALLY need to see that not everyone has supernatural housekeeping standards, and some men REALLY need to see that their handiwork is genuinely terrible. I find the rules of parliamentary debate very useful: before you argue about anything, define the terms. I mean, if you're arguing on completely different definitions, no wonder you disagree.
84
@70 FTW!
85
@ 19 "Do everybody a favor and end the relationship as cleanly as possible, for its own reasons, not because you've got someone new waiting to bang your softening erection in the wings."

Priceless.
86
If that's the best DYCMM could do husband-wise then, that's her fault and her problem.
87
@71,

Frankly, it's a mistake to start with that assumption. Maybe you've been lucky in your love life (and I praise you for that), but I've been in (very short lived) relationships with men who would only touch me if they wanted sex. I'm certain that all of them wound up in relationships with women who use sex as a weapon (with the exception of the occasional woman like BEG who's too naive to know better) because no woman with a healthy sex drive and self-esteem would put up with a relationship without intimacy.

But, as I said before, whether those men are at fault for their relationships becoming sexless is beside the point. If their girlfriends/wives aren't happy with them, they should leave and not stoop to power struggles and other shitty behavior.
88
DYCMM:

Perhaps when word gets back to your husband of how you feel about him ("Your wives really do have sex drives...We just aren't hot for you."), that will be the last time he kisses you or touches you, or looks at you with anything in his eyes but a combination of hurt, reproach, and morbid curiosity (if that's so, who ARE you banging?), and you will be delighted to be released from the incessant pawings of yet another child.

Perhaps when you notice the reason why the husband's shoes aren't in the center of the living room floor is because they are still on his feet -- well, you hope they're still on his feet, though you really aren't sure exactly where he is at the moment, or why he is unaccountably missing for two hours, or why this is the fifth time this month that has happened -- you will be satisfied with finally having gotten rid of that particular annoyance.

Perhaps when you lose the source of funding that makes it possible for you to stay home all day surrounded by bodily fluids and other messes, its absence will help you recognize that there was a real, live, responsible adult on the other end of that transaction, who was contributing something real and quantifiable to your life.

Perhaps when you notice that the reason that your house is so satisfyingly pristine at the moment is because the only person in it is you, and that's how it will stay until next Monday, when the kids get back from Dad's house, which by the way was littered all weekend with pizza boxe, dirty socks, DVD covers and other evidence of an active life with kids, you will be pleased that the housekeeping at long last lives up to your exacting standards.

Perhaps when you are forced to seek "real" work in the "real" workforce -- good luck with that, with a resume where the most recent several years carry the title "Mommy" -- in order to experience the rare privilege of handing over a sizable chunk of that money to another woman so she can raise your children for you while you spend your days surrounded not by bodily fluids but by the four short, carpet-covered walls of a cubicle -- a truly aphrodisiac environment if ever there was one -- you will realize that your life is what you make of it.

Perhaps when you are in the middle of wrangling with your ex-husband yet again over whether he can have four or five of your custody days around Christmas, because he really wants to take the kids to Disneyland, and he just can't understand why you are so resistant, and that he's threatening to go back to court to get that written into the custody order... you will realize that nail clipping in front of the TV and shoes in the wrong place are pretty fucking trivial.

Perhaps you will come to the conclusion that maybe you should have communicated with him, instead of being resentful of the fact that he is a member of a species that does not read thoughts at a distance. If you want him clean and showered, maybe you should try climbing in the shower with him. Maybe you should try thanking him for what he does for you. Yes, actually, doing a load of laundry IS praiseworthy. I thank my wife when I notice that my sock drawer is once again full. (And yes, providing the funding for the detergent, the washer, the clothing, the house containing it, and the food that got spilled on it does count as contributing.)
89
You guys should really really stop ragging on DYCMM. It's super disheartening as a young female but I think you're also missing the point.

It's not just the doing things it's the attitude, the environment it builds and I know because I've seen it in action. How would you feel if you had all these things you were expected to do and you do without making too much of a fuss but when you ask for anything a huge fuss is made out of it. When you're in that environment where you feel belittled by everything you do and futile when you ask for a little help or a more sympathetic attitude you're not going to want sex. It isn't a matter of making your spouse begrudgingly help out with chores or halfassedly fix his hygiene, it's a matter of cultivating a more pleasant environment to live in. If a woman has to feel like she's married to a manchild because they can't act a little more adult some of time why is she being blamed. It doesn't matter what gender this applies to either, I've seen "adults" of both genders act this way, point is no one facing that attitude should be expected to feel like having sex because they obviously won't.

@68 That was a stupid dickish example, you know why? In your "wonderful" dickish world the spouse who was all like stop, wait, let's sit and talk never once offered to say, "look can I help? Two people will get this done faster and maybe when it's done we could have some time together." You're idea clearly has no sense of compromise and is super one sided. My boyfriend would help me get the work done before asking me to "sit and tend to the fire awhile" which is already pressuring spouse to into doing another task. Go tend to your own fire!

Also No Catchy Sign-off, grow up and get a sex positive therapist. It doesn't sound like you asked your wife what would make her want to do it more and you certainly haven't asked about an open relationship. Or if you don't love her, which sort of sounds like the case, why don't you just get divorced. It's not that bad on the kids and I can tell you it's far worse than having two miserable parents in the house.
90
@87: I'm very confused by your comment. Now I can understand having a problem with a relationship without emotional closeness or caring touches; I wouldn't want that either.

But you also have a problem with a partner who is very turned on by you and wants to have sex with you when he touches you? When I'm in a relationship with someone, it's because I find her attractive and want to have sex with her as often as possible. Now, if she doesn't want sex very often, there's an incompatibility problem, which is a little different. But I'm not seeing the problem with wanting sex with my girlfriend whenever I touch her hair, squeeze her hand, hug her, or rub her shoulders. There would be something wrong if I didn't.
91
@ 90
"But you also have a problem with a partner who is very turned on by you and wants to have sex with you when he touches you? When I'm in a relationship with someone, it's because I find her attractive and want to have sex with her as often as possible."

Sadly (not saying you are one of them) for a lot of people that is all that being in a relationship is about, and it is a problem regardless of gender. I want my lover to want to be with me because I am a fountain of wisdom, a stream of intellect, a blossom of happiness, a wave of wit- you get the picture. Of course it helps if he thinks I am glorious to behold, but if that is the only reason he is with me, he will soon be very, very bored. There is so much more to share with a touch than sex- when you are laughing together, walking together, a shoulder massage or even a nudge can be great ways to express intimacy. A touch should not always lead to sex.
92
Gonna say that DYCMM is right. Can't expect a woman to be attracted to a lazy slob.
93
"Trust me, guys, this topic has been covered at length by your wife and her girlfriends. "

In other words, you are discussing it with the wrong person, stupid.
94
@44 While I more often hear from my guy friends about this, I didn't mean to sound like it's only women who behave this way. I do know of one situation where it's the guy projecting his bullshit onto his wife, but I don't have that much knowledge about their relationship since we're not really close.

I asked Dan for advice, and he told me that if there weren't kids involved he'd tell me to DTMFA. I thought I had a DADT from her but discovered that she didn't really mean it (I guess for her it was some kind of test, like "here's your DADT pass, but if you really love me you won't use it"). But since there are kids involved I've decided to find other ways to be happy. So our home environment is friendly and civil, but were it to turn acrimonious I'd have no problem leaving before the kids are gone.
95
All partners in a relationship have a responsibility, if they want the relationship to survive, to stay appealing to the other partner(s). That means decent standards of hygiene, it means civil behavior, it means making at least some attempt to be attractive, romantic, KIND and CONSIDERATE. The absolute worst thing you can do in any relationship is take your partner(s) for granted. The happiest marriages are the ones where all the partners spend as much time and effort romancing each other as they did when they were first bathed in NRE.
96
@89, like DYCMM, your response says a lot more about you than it does about the original letter writer. Both of you have the problem of projecting your own issues into the situation, so perhaps you should get your own house in order before venturing to lecture others.
97
So...just a general comment. DYCMM never said she was having this problem with her guy. Given how easily she expressed herself there, she probably doesn't have communication issues. Yeah, she's projecting, but maybe she's just had a recent string of couple friends having this issue. Chill tfo, peeps.
98
I thought I had a DADT from her but discovered that she didn't really mean it (I guess for her it was some kind of test, like "here's your DADT pass, but if you really love me you won't use it").
"I put it down at the bottom of a dark hole.
"That was wrong.
"I should get it out of the hole.
"I won't.
"It gets a Pass to get it out of the hole, but
it can't use the Pass, it must stay within, or else it gets the hose again."
99
88 so fucking wins this thread.
100
Again folks...regardless of gender, you want sex, make an effort. Slobs are a turn off. You don't have to be perfect and stay beautiful all of your life, but for crying out loud, put your partner first and keep it clean. It is perfectly natural for people to be turned off by the filthy habits of others. The writer has a good point. People who are married long term and remain sexually active make an effort. They care enough to do so.

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