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Letter sent. I hope it helps.
While that's undoubtedly true, in Australia the bigots can't even blame Christianity for their prejudice. They're just bigots. "Grammar" schools are usually "non-denominational", which is about as close to secular as private schooling gets.
I've said this before on Slog. The difference between the US and Australia is not that the US has large numbers of bigots and Australia doesn't. It's that in the US, there are non-bigots who openly acknowledge the existence of wide spread prejudice.
Australia is, generally speaking, very homophobic (despite significant gay communities and cultural events such as the Sydney mardi-gras). If you asked the average Australian about it though, you'd get a fuckwitted response not dissimilar to that moronic quote from the comically named Heather Schnagl. Not only would they deny the prejudice, but they'd take offence at the accusation.
To me, this only highlights the endemic nature of the homophobia. It's so pervasive, we as a country don't even recognise we've got a problem.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/educat…
ā Greg Proops
Wow. Just... wow.
I was quite aggrieved to read the story of how you are barring Hannah Williams from bringing the date of her choice to the Preston Dinner Dance. You said that the policy was not discriminatory, because all the girls were allowed to bring male dates.
Iām sorryābut when you tell the female students that they are allowed to bring the date of their choiceāso long as they choose maleāyou are discriminating against those female students whose choice is also female.
A date to a major school dance is not just a fashion accessory. It is an expression of a young personās affection for another. Telling Hannah, in effect, āyou are allowed to bring any date you choose, just as long as it is a date I might choose,ā you are telling Hannah that her affections are defective, substandard, and unacceptable.
Forty years ago, I was in a position very similar to Hannahās. I was a young male student in a Christian school who was toldāon a daily basisāthat my affections were defective, that I was somehow substandard, and that the emotions I felt were unacceptable. Fortunately, within a few years, I learned that I was not the problem, and that, instead, was attitudes like the ones you expressed. I learned that I was a good, decent, loving and giving human being, and that I was being mocked, criticized and oppressed by people who lacked the imagination to see how varied love can be.
I urge you to reconsider your decision, and to let Hannah bring the date of her choice to the prom. You must realize that the eyes of the world are upon you. I hope you make the right choice.
To be fair, this may not be religious conservative dumbfuckery, merely traditional Australian private school dumbfuckery.
''If we opened it up and said girls could bring another female they would all bring females." - no duh. Ms Schnagl should be so lucky. The year my Australian private all-girls school let students take male dates the boys (mainly private school lads) brought cheap booze, got drunk, got their dates drunk, broke school chairs and a few windows and threw up all over a parent's house at the after-party. From then on all 'co-educational experiences' were strictly confined to daylight hours in situations where the teachers could strictly police the boys. If the administration at IGGS wants to clean sick off the floors the day after their formal, they're going about it the right way.
I'm not sure if Ms. Schnagl is a "Christian", Dan. But, no the US hasn't cornered the market on bigots. Bigotry is a pernicious weed in the garden of humanity. Wherever there are humans you will find it thriving.
It is good to see that Miss Williams has the support of her father. That makes me happy. Especially, when it seems I'm walking in a monsoon of young people who want me, and my family, to know that they are LGBT. We can't underestimate how important it is for us to be accepted and loved for who we are. Hannah Williams is very lucky to have her father, and friends, behind her. That is a beautiful thing.
That said, e-mail sent. I hope it helps, but bigotry is much like a brick wall. I wish Ms. Williams luck, if I'm not mistaken her education at Ivanhoe Girl's Grammar should be nearing its end, and she has a future to look forward to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9HRkENpL…
There is, of course, bigotry in Australia.
However, I suggest that people here read the comments section of The Age article so that you might see the majority of comments supporting the rights of the student and pointing out the stupidity and hypocrisy of the principal and the school.
Furthermore, these comments are a spontaneous and honest reaction of readers, unlike the homophobic comments which are no doubt the work of the Australian Christian Lobby (ACL), which has mailing lists to inform their members of such news stories and implores them to write in to condemn homosexual "lifestyles".
Another differentiation between this example and the case in the US is that the Australian girls had the full support of their peers.
There is, of course, bigotry in Australia.
However, I suggest that people here read the comments section of The Age article so that you might see the majority of comments supporting the rights of the student and pointing out the stupidity and hypocrisy of the principal and the school.
Furthermore, these comments are a spontaneous and honest reaction of readers, unlike the homophobic comments which are no doubt the work of the Australian Christian Lobby (ACL), which has mailing lists to inform their members of such news stories and implores them to write in to condemn homosexual "lifestyles".
Another differentiation between this example and the case in the US is that the Australian girls had the full support of their peers.
Hello from up over.
I'm writing in support of Savannah Supski, the student you recently discriminated against by not allowing her to bring her date of choice to a dance.
Two things:
A) Your insistence that given their choice your entire student body would bring other girls to the dance instead of boys is so beyond the imagination of anyone who has ever been a fifteen year old straight boy and known girls that age, it could only mean that you are projecting; do you know what I mean by that? I mean this: Imagine your eyes are closed and you are dancing with your ideal partner, having the best night of your life, then you open your eyes to see your partner; is it a man or a woman . . . Be honest with yourself in your answer please.
B) Bigots are on the losing side of history, the world is getting better in love and understanding, and your point of view is already seen as evil by most of the developed world. Stand up for your supposed right to deprive others of theirs and you will be left behind by the best people in the world.
The best thing about beating one's head against a wall is it feels good to stop.
Stop.
As a straight person though, I can tell you that I witness a lot of homophobic sentiment that you might not be privy to as a gay person. While that's some progress I suppose, it doesn't indicate the eradication of homophobia, only the taming of it.
Incidentally, when I express disapproval, I often encounter genuine dismay, as if private prejudice does not qualify as homophobia, or perhaps based on an apprehension that I need to be gay myself in order to take offence at bigotry.
Curiously enough, that is also a response I often detect among gay friends when I discuss LGBT rights. This seems to involve, on the one hand, genuine surprise that LGBT issues merit serious political action in the context of the struggle for human rights, and on the other hand, a kind of political solidarity that as a straight person I'm (justifiably I suppose) excluded from participation in.
(My email):
It was with extreme disappointment that I read of your conduct regarding one of the lesbians attending your school bringing her girlfriend to the Preston dinner dance. Allowing girls to bring their romantic partner to such an occasion (regardless of gender of said partner) is obviously the height of equal opportunity, and that you added insult to injury by proclaiming her protests to be inappropriate is completely unacceptable, close-minded and backwards.
I hope that you offer this poor girl the apology she deserves, and see fit to amend your schools discriminatory practices. Open up these functions to partners of either gender, and I think you will see no drastic upswing in same-sex dating; your fears are irrational and juvenile, and smack of blatant homophobia.
SUBJECT: Discrimination
Very upsetting to hear that an organisation such as yours CHOOSES TO
TEACH CHILDREN THAT IT IS OK TO DISCRIMINATE.
Never fearā¦ You will be judged soon enough, maybe then when GOD SLAMS
the gate in your face you will get the idea.
I feel sick that my taxes pay for you to have a job.
I hope I am not the only person expressing my opinion to you.
SHAME SHAME SHAME.
Australians are sure less PC than Canadians, but I haven't noticed that they're any more bigoted. The key is how you approach it. They appreciate having their views challenged if you throw in a dash of humour, but straight up 'confrontational' responses just rub them the wrong way.
For example, if Steve says, "This movie is so gay", the proper response in US or Canada is "WTF Man? That's discriminatory!! >:(", but in australia, the correct response is more along the lines of "This movie is so Steve!" or whatever. Just different cultural approaches to disagreement.
@28: Actually, the correct response in Australia is "Get a dog up ya, ya bastard!". Depending on facial expression and tone of voice, this can be anything from a friendly rebuke to an incitement to violence.
The poll is currently 80/20 in FAVOR of same sex couples attending school events out of 17,292 votes.
Melbourne and most urban/suburban residents of the 7 principle capital cities in Australia are all very, very accepting of homosexuals. Sexuality is a non-issue. People are very supportive with a cultural and statistical majority favoring the legalization of gay marriage. This is a major political issue that has helped fuel The Greens rise to 14% in the polls.
We are former SE Seattle residents now living in SE Melbourne literally just down the road from Ivanhoe. We are a straight traditional family of three who have gay friends in Seattle, and now gay friends in Melbourne. Private schools are big in Melbourne, but this is totally an anomaly.
Lastly, as an American living in Australia I have come to really appreciate the civility of Australians as a people. It is reflected in this article by The Age (The Seattle Times equivalent in circulation and editorial influence). The reporter nicely characterizes the events and the efforts by the parties to resolve the issue.
Dan's asking folks to weigh in to the Educators and Leaders of;
Ivanhoe Girls' Grammar School
123 Marshall Street
Ivanhoe Victoria 3079
Australia
But he does with a bit of Australian flare. He asks us to "be polite".
Lastly, Ivanhoe - total guy's name. And it's a girls school. Love the irony.
Thanks for listening.
Lawrence Molloy
Sorry mate, but they CAN blame their christian brainwashing. All "Grammar" schools (In Victoria, at least) are affiliated with the Anglican church. I've worked at 2 of them and whilst there may be different stresses placed on religion at the school, they are all anglican. You'll usually notice a bishop's mitre somewhere in the school crest (usually a hint of the school's leanings.)
Cheers.
Principal Dr Heather Schnagl
Telephone: (03) 9490 6222, Email: iggs@ivanhoegirls.vic.edu.au
Use your gmail accounts to make free calls.
The number (for verification etc) is from here: http://www.ivanhoegirls.vic.edu.au/conta…
Principal Dr Heather Schnagl
Telephone: (03) 9490 6222, Email: iggs@ivanhoegirls.vic.edu.au
Use your gmail accounts to make free calls.
The number (for verification etc) is from here: http://www.ivanhoegirls.vic.edu.au/conta…
Ivanhoe Girls' aims to provide the best learning and teaching which, underpinned by the Christian philosophy, enables every girl to achieve her potential and to be a confident, optimistic and responsible citizen.
Yup.
Because being at an all girls school means none of them have boyfriends or sex drives... right... >.>
what part of 'co-ed' confuses you girls?
the principal isn't asking dear Hannah to Marry a boy.
and lesbo's need to learn that boys don't have cooties.....
You know the rules before you sign up to the place so dont sign if you dont like them.
There are plenty of public schools you can go to. If you dont like the rules - DONT GO THERE.
People forget that Churches and Private Schools (often church run) are not public institutions. STOP TRYING TO ENFORCE YOUR STANDARDS AND BELIEFS ON OTHERS - THAT WAS WHAT THE GAY MOVEMENT WAS ALL ABOUT IN THE DAYS WHEN IT (Homosexuality), WAS FROWNED UPON YEARS AGO.
One would have thought that you would have learnt that lesson by now. If it had been a public school, you would have my support - but not in a private school.
Nigel
Australian Public and Private High School Teacher.
(hee hee hee... "nigel")
So d'you suppose when these students signed up for the school they were given written notice that they wouldn't be able to exercise all of the same rights as the other students because they were gay? Seems like a job for the better business bureau or local equivalent..
Also, I realize this might not resonate with you, given your own country's stellar race-relations record, but people used to use that argument all the time in this country to explain why the coloreds couldn't drink at the same water fountains as the whites. Tell me you're not a history teacher...
There's a good book on Homophobia in Australia.
A study was done in 2008, where 25,000 Australians aged 14 and over who were sureveyed were asked the 'yes' 'no' question of whether they thought homosexuality was 'immoral. I am an Australian, and I was shocked by how high blatant homophobia is in Australia. I attribute some of this to the fact that we have an ageing population, and most homophobic people are in the 65+ age bracket.
The final report is called 'Homophobia: an Australian history.' Edited by Shirleene Robinson. Published by Federation Press.
Here is a snapshot of the findings.
35% of Australians surveyed said they thought homosexuality was immoral. 65% said they did not think it was immoral. (p. 20).
Men were found to be more homophobic than women (men 43%, and women 27%).
Of all age groups, the most homophobic are 65 and over, (53% of people 65 and over believe homosexuality is immoral), (p.28), while the least homophobic group are people between ages 18 and 34, where the figure is around 28%. In all age groups, men are more homophobic, particularly men over 50 and boys under 17 years of age.
The homophobic capital of Australia is Moreton in Rural Queensland, where around 50% of people are blatantly homophobic, while the least homophobic place in Australia was found to be Inner City Melbourne, where the figure for blatant homophobes is around 15%. Hannah will be moving to a school in inner Melbourne. Ivanhoe is only 15 km from Inner meblourne, and is within Central Melbourne where around 28% of people are blatantly homophobic, making it the third least homophobic area in Australia, but Ivanhoe Girlās Grammar appears to be an anomale.
And at my childern's (private school) high, there are happily out students. Our school community would be outraged if any of our gay students were discriminated against.
| It upsets me that your rationale for Savannah Supski not being allowed to attend the formal with Hannah completely sidesteps the issue of homosexuality- it's weak, and cowardly, to blame it on age and the apparent co-ed experience. Hannah's bid to take her girlfriend to the school formal was not about making a political statement until your refusal made it one. |
Best of luck to Hannah and Savannah. Good on ya ladies.
The blackface skit of the Jacksons on Australian TV was dumb (it was on a kind of dumb talent program - not professionally done); but, it did not have the same meaning as in the US. It was stupid and was definitely racist. However, it lacked the kind of bite that would have come loaded in it had it been done on a US TV show. We have no history of blackface here - that is what Americans don't seem to get. The same with watermelon and chicken - black people eating watermelon and chicken carry no extra layer of meaning. Do you understand? We do not have the same history so culturally sensitive things are different.
I really don't understand this sanctimonious vibe I get from so many Americans. LIke this moron who has snarled ' yeah...typical..they did the blackface thing too".
I'll give you an example. A year ago I was at University and an American girl said 'I like Australia but it seems kind of odd there are not many black people - why is that...is that some kind of racist thing".
We said, "um, actually, we didn't go to Africa and STEAL black people a few hundred years ago so that would explain it I guess".
Just because you have all reached some kind of equilibrium with each other and there had been a measure of forgiveness etc, does not detract from the fact that the reason there are lots of black people in the US is because you did a massively racist thing. It was beyond bizarre to hear an American girl making like we were bad because of the lack of black people. THe fact we don't have many Africans here is a sign that we are less racist than you. See the logic?
What about aboriginals? That is where the racism is, sure. But it is not like your racism towards black people. It is almost exactly like your racism towards native Americans. The whole things is almost identical. Same with the numbers - there have never actually been that many aboriginals. The average Australian lives in one of the main cities and probably never sees an aboriginal. Their racism is in their willingness to accept a general neglect of the aboriginal problem - "yeah, whatever" they say, "I'm tired of hearing about it and being made to feel guilty about it....I pay tax and agree that something should be done but I've got a life and...basically...sort it out ok". That's the attitude - and that's why it continues. I guess just like your issues with native Americans.
So all those whiter than white countries in Europe that I have heard Americans make snarly comments about because they seem 'very white'..so they must be more racist.....are really incredibly stupid. It makes you look so dumb. The American girl I told you about....her reaction to this very clear and convincing logic was to say "...it is so weird of you to bring that up...we are aware of our past and there is an open acceptance about our crimes.....".
So...basically...no answer. Her angle was that this was bringing in an 'irrelevant', fact, or just a hit below the belt. It is not...it is a CENTRAL thing. It defines the whole debate. Totally.
The USA stole millions of black people from Africa and we didn't. Now there are millions of black people in the US and there are not many here. And because we didn't steal black people and whip them and make them work on our farms.....we have no history of blackface, chicken and watermelon stuff. So when you see something abroad and you are looking through a US-centric lens, you are seeing your own issues. Yet, morons like the guy on this site just keep seeing what they want to see...and can't, or don't want to, think 'wait up...does blackface mean the same there as here".
Lots of nice Americans in this world. But also some really dumb ones.
By the way...there actually is more racism in the US than here. Real nasty racism. Here it is a dumb, non PC, acceptance of race as a punchline. - with the country being an exception - there is genuine racism against aboriginals here in small towns. Thankfully that is about 5% of our population. Most live in the main cities. Jokes that are really out of bounds in the US are still heard here. That is wrong, of course. But that is different than the kind of stuff that goes on in the US. I never got over the PC way Americans talk about race and the things they actually do...like fight tooth and nail to get their kid into a school with 'less' black kids in it... Live very very far from the black area etc. Australians make it hard for themselves because they still don't get you can't talk about race flippantly anymore. There is too much bound up in it for things to be 'just a joke' . We'll get it eventually. But in the meantime it gives a totally wrong impression about the existence of racism here relative to your country.
Anyway....whatever.
yeah...there is homophobia here too.
Not sure how you made the link between water foutains (presumibly publically funded water fountains) and private institutions - but if you are suggesting that having spend their investment (private money) building a school, that they can cannot control how that investment is used - then I would dissagree with you. That is why I suggested a public school - which draws on public monies - hence the school should represent everybody. I was a History teacher (Ancient History). I do not now teach in private schools as I do not go to church - nor do I accept that Jesus is God - that is a doctrine that I found is not supported in the Greek or Hebrew writings. I am qualified to teach (and I was also formally trained as an Anglican or Episcopalian priest), but instead of trying to force my ideas either by stealth (hiding my beliefs) or by design (forcing ideas on others), I simply work within the public system.
Hope that helps
"Jesus wept, the stupid is hurting my brain so much. Oh it burns, how it burns!"
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/blogs/blun…
"Jesus wept, the stupid is hurting my brain so much. Oh it burns, how it burns!"
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/blogs/blun…
If 40% of our budget comes from government funds, your claim to be private and independant, and thus execpt from discrimination law starts looking shakey.
"...but allowing the girls to invite other girls ... would clearly undermine the purpose of the event....- to socialise the girls with boys."
If the intent is simply to socialise girls with boys (as opposed to forcing heterosexual courtship rituals onto them), then why not just organise a mixed sports, theatre, music, whatever event for them to meet. Why have them bring one male only guest? why make it a dance? This event is clearly about getting the girls to become heterosexual women. It assumes that "socialising" with boys is something which must have a romantic, one to one nature about it, with opposite sex pairs dancing together. The unspoken message it communicates is that girls must become heterosexual in order to become fully integrated into society, and to become adult women.
Its sooo easy to run with the herd, take cheap shots at an easy target like a stumbling, media-un-savvy Heather Schnagl, to launch into sweeping generalisations about private schools, about Australia, Australians, Canadians, Septics (Yanks), Christians or whoever, to assert rampant homophobia where it by-and-large does not exist.
As somebody who actually knows the protagonists in this little drama and has very good sources, sorry to rain on the parade, but I'm here to say this is a storm in a teacup.
No, I am not homophobic and I assure you that sexuality is totally a non-issue for everybody I know. I have much loved lesbian family members and I'm a bloke BTW ;-)
I get annoyed with the school from time to time but its not a bad school. Actually its pretty good. Not perfect, but pretty damned good.
I work with the homeless for my day job, and volunteer with a couple other good organizations, but if I go home after all that and punch my neighbour, I've still done a bad thing.
Or, if I have a great lesbian friend, but then discriminate against lesbian people I don't know, I'm still a bigot.
there are homeless people in Canada?
in Heaven on Earth?
the Gentle Socialist Utopia?
are you sure?!?!
What I am doing is condemning the generalisations explicit, and assumptions implicit in so many responses in this forum.
Generalisations about entire countries, school systems, schools, communities. Assumptions about culture and the extent to which the world is modelled on GodBless.
Take for example "partners":
#52 asserts "...Implicit within the notion of a dinner dance is courtship; it is what dances have been about through the ages." and #10: "A date to a major school dance is not just a fashion accessory. It is an expression of a young personās affection for another."
Maybe in GodBless but not in WhackAnotherShrimp.. In this part of the world, the kids go out and have a great time, hit the after party (grumble). The vast majority take friends. Some take "partners" of course.
Thankfully, we are half a world away in Australia (not Austria).