The relationship is already over, she'll never be GGG enough. DTMFA before he dumps you.
Totally agree with Dan, here. And I do have to say, I think she has the right to make the best friend off limits, at least when he's telling her about his fantasies. I consider my best friend to be my sister, and the thought of doing something with her (even though I'm bi)....*squick*. If my boyfriend brought up my best friend during a fun romp, any pleasure I was having would be killed instantly.
Yep, you're shit outta luck with this one, hon. Move along - there are plenty of fish in the sea.
She needs to find somebody with a Madonna-Whore complex. That way she can be a Whore when they first meet, then they can fall in love, so she can be the Madonna. /flippancy

This LW is totally unfair. It's not like they've actually executed these fantasies...unless they have. It's erotic imagination. They may, down the line...but, for now, they haven't.

Either she needs to be more secure in knowing that he DOES want her and only her, and that his fantasy is mainly about having the hottest fucking chick around (so hot everybody wants to do her)...or, bid goodbye to this relationship.

Love means always seeing your lover as a great piece of ass. :-D
If you outgrow, or change your opinion about a fetish which was originally the foundation of your sexual relationship, but your lover is still into it, you have three choices.

1. Find a way to continue to indulge the fetish, even if that means you sometimes have to take one for the team.

2. Apologize profusely for misleading them (even unintentionally) and move on.

3. Continue the relationship, but allow your lover to pursue his or her fetish elsewhere.

It just doesn't seem that complicated to me.
Dan was kinda soft on her, which was nice. Especially considering what a ninny this woman is. And her boyfriend - kind of a dick.
"Now I know you're not doing it on purpose, NGE, and this is just how you feel, and feelings are sacrosanct lil' mysteries and there's nothing you, me, or anyone can do about it, but I've never understood people who are up for anything with someone they're into—dirty talk, rough sex, groups (real or imagined)—until they fall in love with that person. Shouldn't falling in love, and the deepening feelings of trust and comfort that goes along with it, open a couple up to new possibilities, new horizons, new sexual adventures?"

Welcome to the mind of a woman, Dan. Hetero men don't understand them either. I don't think even hetero women do. And as for homo women ... well, "lesbian bed death" pretty much says it all.…
Lede: A woman's sex drive begins to plummet once she is in a secure relationship, according to research.
Yeah, some people don't realize we actually have some control over our emotions, our mysterious feelings. Like anything else, that control gets better with practice. You can choose how you feel, to some degree. This should be taught in grade school.
I disagree with Dan's advice. Especially concerning the best friend thing. I would dump him just for that. It's too up close and personal and it would make me have negative feelings towards my best friend. What about her needs? Her sexuality is changing, shouldn't she have a few times where at least he TALKS only about her? He's a complete asshole, apparently only his sexual needs get to be met. Forget the fact that she says that they don't have to stop with this role play, just SATISFY HER a few times. I agree, she shouldn't expect him to change. I just think that maybe, just MAYBE, he should think about her needs. I can't believe nobody has mentioned this so far, I thought you sloggers were concerned with both partners needs. I don't care if she does sound a little pathetic, the guys is still a jerk.
I'm hearing a lot of passivity in her letter -- each time they have sex she's waiting to hear what fantasy he starts in on. I say, they should take turns (doesn't have to be obsessively 50/50, but at least once a week she should strive to come up with creative sexual energy.

NGE, seduce him, tell him about a fantasy of you and him doing something dirty and hot, get him all hot and bothered before you fuck him. If he's doing all the work of coming up with the fantasies, of course they're bound to be his fantasies, not yours.

Also, on the days when he's going off about group sex, bring up some names of people you both know who are not off limits. It's fun to have names in the stories, not just "and then the woman... and then the first guy..."

Finally, NGE, if you search your fantasies and all you can come up with are romantic fluff about long walks on the beach and cuddling in front of the fireplace, then maybe your libido has taken a hit (for some women, going on the pill , or other medications, can do that.) If so, talk to your doctor.
This one hits too close to home, as someone who feels like a less pushy version of the LW's boyfriend right now. I really don't understand how some women who enjoy the idea of multiple partners suddenly fall into this I-can-now-have-attraction-to-no-one-but-you state of mind. Like Dan says, shouldn't greater trust make more adventure possible? Sigh.

Please, NGE, don't make either of you be something you're not prepared to be. Maybe he could curb it a little, but this fantasizing is still part of who your boyfriend is, and you clearly can't deal with that. Walk away.
Spot-on: internalized Madonna/Whore complex.

While I wouldn't call NGE's objections demeaning, I would call them unfair, given that this shit was totally cool when they started dating. That said, the boyfriend is being kind of a dick, too: "I'm okay with talking about other people, but my family/best friends are off limits" seems reasonable (if, again, that was a rule all along, or at least as soon as the best friends was brought up; if it's another change in the status quo, then you have the same problem as with the fantasy scenarios in their entirety).

@Dan: Actually, the Madonna/Whore thing makes perfect sense, and you yourself have previously pointed out why. In a new relationship, without (necessarily) Love and A Future, the stakes are low, so people are willing to be open about their kinky stuff, entertain the idea of multiple partners, etc. For the insecure (and perhaps justifiably so), once they're "in Love", the relationship matters a lot, so the (super-common, in our monogamous-norm culture) insecurities surrounding the partner leaving for someone better flare up. It's just a matter of low-stakes/high-stakes and the combined views that sex is dirty and that monogamy is normal and good.
I'm with 9 & 10. There's a lot of blame on the woman here, but isn't part of being GGG BOTH partners being attentive to each other's sexual desires and needs? I mean, expecting him to give up his fantasies, is yes, absolutely ridiculous, and if she can't accept that, then yes they need to break the hell up. However, I don't see why it's unreasonable to ask that there be some people who are off-limits, and that sometimes, he indulges HER fantasies, those him-and-her only fantasies. It sounds like she's done plenty of work indulging his.
I dunno, I wonder if this problem would be an issue if the had been mixing it up from the beginning. On one level, I'm not sympathetic with changing the rules arbitrarily or control-freak thought policing, but on the other, I can kinda see where the same fantasy for four years would kinda get old, and even demeaning. Bringing the best friend in, even after being asked not to seems just like a dick move. A little give and take between them would go a long way it seems, but they both seem pretty entrenched in getting their own way.
This advice is a little too hard on the letter-writer. She said she's tried new kinks & fantasies with this boyfriend that she never would have considered before, BECAUSE she loves & trusts him. It's just the gangbang fantasies that are bothering her. & she's complaining, in part, because the boyfriend can NEVER come up with a hot fantasy about the 2 of them together -- a reasonable complaint, & something that could make even a GGG gal feel insecure. Furthermore, he's being a selfish lover by bringing up fantasies about her best friend, when he knows (& she told him) it's a turnoff for her.

What NGE needs to do is separate the parts of her demands that are reasonable from those that aren't. Asking her boyfriend to mix up his dirty-talk repertoire & bring in stuff that's hot to her right now is totally reasonable. So his telling him not to mention specific people, like her best friend. On the other hand, telling him it's "hurtful" to think about other women is not. Right now she's conflating her desire to have hot sex, & her wish for him to stop fantasizing about anyone else. Maybe if she can be more clear with him, his attitude will change?

Agree with #10 that she should take initiative & bring in the kinds of roleplay fantasies she wants to do, instead of waiting to hear what he will say.
And again, if you fell in love with HIM, then why do you want to CHANGE HIM?
Why do women who claim they love a man always want to change him? I mean, if I go shopping for a shirt and I find one I "love", I don't go home and toss it in a bucket of dye and cut the sleeves off, fercrissakes! Clearly you don't love him. You love what you think you can CHANGE him into! You cannot change him. You can only change yourself! Or get out.
It sounds like the classic bait-and-switch to me.

Look, NGE, I'm sure you're a nice lady, and I have no doubt that your BF is a cool dude, but he's got a freaky mind, and early on you led him to believe that having a freaky mind was the greatest thing ever, so if you're looking for a choirboy to romance the hell out of you in bed, you should have said something earlier.

Dan's right about one thing in particular: leopard, spots. Men are very hardwired, and if fantasizing about threesome and group sex is what gets him off, it will ALWAYS get him off. No amount of love is going to change that. Here's something else to think about... As men age, their fantasies beome even more pronounced (trust me on this one). At some point, he WILL want to cross over into actual threesomes and groups. When he does, be prepared to join him or be prepared to leave because he's going to do it either way. It's just a matter of time.

He's unhappy that your feelings about both your sexual fantasies changed and his fantasies, once hot, now cause you *emotional distress*, which, let's think about it, is bound to make a person kind of fucking tetchy. Legit. You're unhappy because you aired your concerns and instead of being more constructive, just pushed back in a dickish, mega passive-aggressive way. Legit.

Look. People change. TOTALLY. And people change to different degrees too. Some people change a lot, some not as much. Compromise, as a result, can only be so effective. It's worth working for, but it's not always possible. It sounds like not only are you reaching the point where you've changed "too" much, but your boyfriend has next-to-zero interest in reaching a middle ground.

And once you two break it off, consider modifying your approach for the next guy.
Er: "You're unhappy because you aired your concerns and instead of being more constructive, HE just pushed back in a dickish, mega passive-aggressive way. Legit." He.
@19 Good luck if you believe you can go around changing men into what you want. Really, GOOD FUCKING LUCK!
The guy sounds like a douche, sure (best friend, really?) but NGE has no right to complain about his kinks. It's not like he sprang them on her four years into the relationship.
r9,10,13 I guess you missed the part where the LW is the one who misled her bf? That's why she's getting most of the blame here. Rightfully.
@22, huh? I'm telling her to be less passive, and tell him her fantasies in bed. I'm not taking sides, I'm offering advice... (unlike commentators who are only here to be snarky and decide where to apportion the blame )
I guess I missed the part where she's trying to police his thoughts... I gathered she just wants him to stop focusing on them so much in the bedroom.

I relate strongly to the LW. I encourage boyfriends to look at porn, and even in my most insecure moments (and they can be frequent and awfully low), I figure-and am all right with!-the idea that they look at other women and maybe even fantasize.

However, that doesn't mean I want to hear about it, and in the LW's case, it sounds like she doesn't want to hear about it CONSTANTLY. Sure, ideally her bf would want only her, but she seems accepting of group dirty talk in moderation-but having it in her face during every session can turn a "sure whatever" attitude into a pure agony mindset.
There are a lot of misogynists on this thread, jesus. First of all, she is not trying to completely change him, just incorporate something she wants after doing everything he wanted EVERY time. Seriously, what about her getting off, is it supposed to be all about him?? People have to compromise in order to make a relationship work, both men and women compromise. I've compromised many things I like to do in order to make my boyfriend happy, and he does the same. Guess what? We are happy. No matter the gender, if there is no compromise, or willingness to put yourself aside for a second and think about the needs of the person you are supposed to love, then your relationship will fail. Women are socially conditioned to deter to men as it is, so maybe you guys have an entitlement attitude going on. The bottom line is, she has done everything he asked for and he is not giving anything in return. He is an asshole and this submissive girl needs to find someone who is willing to compromise. Men, get over yourselves.
Tell your boyfriend that when he met you, you were living a lie. Now four years later your love for him is your guiding star, the destination of which is access to your authentic pleasure. And now is his opportunity to join you on your journey. He then has to choose whether he wants to join you. If he doesn't then you have a responsibility to you and him to find someone who will make that choice.

To give him some thunder for burning him from changing the relationship on him, go on record, like an ad on the NYT. Vulnerability, trust, risk, and failure are good for your new journey anyway.

My opinion - if this women ever got her boy to cave to her completely so she felt completely
secure in the "love" relationship, she'd start looking for someone on the side she could do
the hot stuff with.

This is the Madonna-Whore complex, female version.
My boyfriend has fantasies I have no interest in hearing and we've talked about what turns each other off, so he doesn't go those places when dirty talking in bed. Now I have no problem if he has fantasies I don't find hot, he can jerk off to them to his hearts content or even visualize them in his head while we're fucking if he wants. However part of being GGG isn't trying new things your partner likes it also means respecting your partners limits. In particular bringing up the best friend after being asked not to is extremely disrespectful, DTMFA.
Bringing up the best friend when she has asked him not to (and I can see why, because, ew) seems like the act of an inconsiderate jerk. The world is full of potential lovers; it's not unreasonable to talk about someone else, and leave that person out of it.

It also seems to me a reasonable request to skip the third-party (or more) fantasies sometimes, because what turns her on (or off) matters, too.

You can say it doesn't make sense that her turn-ons changed after she deemed that they were in love, and maybe you'd be right. But what does it matter? She feels what she feels, and he feels what he feels, and they work with each others' desires, or they don't work out.
@25 Misandry is the new misogyny.

@29 Dan has always said that "if you present yourself as something to hook a guy, it isn't OK to change it if your partner doesn't like it." For instance, being thin to snag an SO, then getting fat. Or, pretending like you have a high sex drive, then suddenly cutting your SO off. If fantasies about multi-partner situations is a key aspect to the BF's fantasies, and verbalizing that is a key aspect...and the LW got off on it as well, then the LW shouldn't be too shocked when the BF has a hard time stopping after 2 or 3 years of it just because she wants him to.

She should prepare herself to deal with it, or DTMFA. Let him find somebody who will enjoy being talked dirty to about fucking her friends, or strangers on the street. She can find somebody who will fulfill her fantasy of being The Only One. They'll both be happier.
She worries about demeaning him and I can promise you he hasn't a worry in his head about demeaning her, even though he's talked her into doing "naughty" things she's not completely comfortable with.

She should DTMFA. If he can't make the effort to at least meet her halfway, say, to try to make sex exciting for her by focusing his fantasies on just the two of them some of the time, he's an asshole. And boring. I mean, that's the only way he can get off? Good luck with that.
I'd hazard a guess that if he would just spend a little more time reassuring her that yes, he loves her too and no, really wanting to think about other people absolutely positively does not mean that he loves her any less, then she could let go a little more. While I agree it's a bait and switch, all the messages that this woman has gotten her whole life is that when you have sex with someone you love it is a meaningful magical thing. So even though all that other sex was good, "in love" sex is supposed to somehow be transcendent. If she could find a way to get it that it can be both transcendent and dirty, I bet the issue would be solved.

But the BF thing - jerky. He should dial that back, now.
@32 - "I'd hazard a guess that if he would just spend a little more time reassuring her that yes, he loves her too and no, really wanting to think about other people absolutely positively does not mean that he loves her any less, then she could let go a little more."

In my experience, a woman who says something like "Now, the only thing that turns me on is him ... What can I do to make him only want me?" is not going to become the sort to let go a little more, no matter what.

"Shouldn't falling in love, and the deepening feelings of trust and comfort that goes along with it, open a couple up to new possibilities, new horizons, new sexual adventures?"

I think falling in love can be kind of like becoming an addict. Like how some alcoholics have to choose between drinking all the time and not drinking at all, you can hit a point with a guy where you either need him completely or you need to quit cold turkey. (Mostly) unlike an addiction to drinking, love can open new sexy possibilities. But it can also close off possibilities that only existed in the absence of love, and it can certainly flip the multiple-partner fantasy directly on its head.

I think LW is in somewhat a bind of her own making, and it's easy enough to see how her boyfriend would consider her shift a bait-and-switch. But if he doesn't have the basic emotional sensitivity to see that the "switch" happened because she cares a lot more about him now then she did before, then she should DTMFA and find someone more suited to her newly discovered capacity for monogamy. Forget the Madonna/Whore bullshit--I've seen plenty of guys go through this, myself included, all of us during our mid-to-late twenties. I dare say it's a very common part of growing up, discovering all these ways that love changes sex, and watching our fantasies adjust to the emotional realities we've experienced.

Finally (as a gay man it's taken me a couple decades to figure this one out) she should maybe consider saving the kinkiest of her fantasies until *after* mutual love has been established. This is a theory I've not yet fully tested myself, and I don't mean to be capitulating to any conservative religious blowhards, but it does seem like it's easier to add sex to pre-existing love than it is to add love to pre-existing sex. Or at least, falling into unrequited love with someone you're having sex with hurts a lot more than not having sex with someone you've fallen into unrequited love with. So next time, lead with love and let the sex happen around that instead of the other way around.

I've been in a similar situation in the past. My ex was ggg and quite the nympho right up to the time we said "I do". After that it became "I don't". I heard the exact same crap "why aren't I enough for you", blah, blah, blah. Of course it was perfectly fine for her to fantasize about whoever and whatever she wanted to in her head. While fucking one night she called me by her previous lover's name. When I called her on it, she denied it, denied it, denied it.

It was ten years of sexual mental abuse. Near then end we were having sex once or twice a year and it always ended in a fight; who was I thinking about, what's wrong with me, I'm sick, normal people don't think that way. NGE, do this guy a favor and leave him as soon as possible so he can find someone who isn't going to do everything she can to make him miserable. The bait and switch is not ethical!
JackDitch, you make really good points! I think when a relationship begins with sex (and probably mutual physical attraction) before the people really know each other, there's a tendency to "fill in the blanks" with what you want to find. That is, when the sex is immediate, and the person is hot, it may be easy to overlook things that you wouldn't if that person were off limits for some reason. I had this happen, where I was separated shortly after meeting someone, and we had to write letters (remember those?) and it really made a difference. To be honest, I doubt I would have had the willpower to do this under normal circumstances (I mean, it's sex, after all!) but I do think it forced us to get to know each other better, more quickly, than we might have otherwise.

As far as the other goes, I think for some people, being in love brings out feelings of jealousy and ownership that don't exist is a more casual relationship. I think people who manage to be very in love, and yet manage to overcome that tendency toward possessiveness have figured something out that eludes most.
She should dump him, but first get a little payback. Bring his dad into the fantasy, or his sister.
I really think there's a problem when the sexual exploration stops with love. I was insecure, jealous, etc. at the beginning of my relationship--when I knew I liked this guy soooo much and was afraid of getting my heart broken. And my sexual boundaries were a lot tighter, inhibitions a lot greater--because I think there's that insecurity there, and you're afraid of not being able to recover from a bad sex experience together. Now we've been together for nine years and I'd feel a little ridiculous if something he did made me feel insecure. I make steak just the way he likes it--where the fuck is he going? As for sex, we only get kinkier with time. That's love. Love should feel secure and free and fun--not some perfectly sculpted ideal pulled out of your culture's ass.
And, seriously--if you have to say that only your partner turns you on, then you're afraid of what might happen if something else did. You're not in love, you're hanging on for dear life.
@25. Right the Hell on!
Scratching my head over "Now, the only thing that turns me on is him." Really? Does that happen to real people? Because it sounds to me like line from a synopsis of a bad romance novel. Or something.

That said, her boyfriend sounds like a selfish jerk, and Dan wasn't quite hard enough on him. She needs to get over her "twue wuv means never wanting to think about another person naked" hangup, and he needs to show some sensitivity to her needs and requests (bringing in the best friend, after I'd asked him not to, would be an instant dealbreaker for me.) Or, more likely, they need to part ways and find more compatible partners.
I gotta disagree with Dan. This girl has gone far above and beyond her original comfort level -- even having sex on camera in front of others when she wasn't really into it initially -- in order to be GGG. And now she's not GGG because she's feeling differently after 4 years! If she's adventurous once, she has to be that way for the rest of her life, or else she's a tease? Sounds like Sexism 101 to me, not the sex-positive philosophy supposedly promoted here.

As far as we know, the boyfriend hasn't done one thing that he isn't comfortable with in order to make her happy. He won't even give up his fantasies for one night.

If I was her, I'd DTMFA. Not because of his desires, which he's always been upfront about. But because he doesn't care about her feelings and is assholishly guilting her into doing things she's not comfortable with for fear of "demeaning" him, which is ridiculous.
@34, right on. @41, you too. I'd also say there's a tendency around here for folks to automatically categorize sexual fantasies as 'kinks'; ie as hardwired and permanent, rather than as flexible or even ephemeral responses to given emotional circumstances. Seems obvious that fantasies can be both, and yeah, maybe there's some gender weighting to how that trends.

In any case it seems to me this (young!) woman is copping a hard time because her emotional circumstances changed and her fantasies changed with them. What, and she was supposed to predict that at the age of 20 whatever? She didn't sign a contract.

Maybe for her the new horizons and adventures were to do with one-on-one intimacy (yes, @40, this happens, even on Earth), and she needed to know he could go there with her. He can't, but given her efforts so far I can't see how that's her fault. Chastising her for the bait and switch is just crap.
LW needs to hear this again: your bf sounds like a unidimensional, pushy, inconsiderate douchebag.

I'm with the folks who have noted him as "boring", too. If they'd had vanilla sex for years and he dug in his heels and refused anything else we'd rightly diss him for it. Doing something different as your partner lusts or requires is a part of being not only GGG but just plain decent. This bf just wants the same kinky stuff over and over. He's just the flipside of vanilla, and equally predictable.
another day of heartbreak in Gomorrah.....

the troll frequently reminds Sloggers that relationships that start with sex seldom (rarely?NEVER?) make it to True Love. Or last.

and that introducing sex into a relationship too early (aka before marriage) usually (ALWAYS?) brings emotional (as well as physical/medical...) pain and problems.

this poor child followed Dan's perscription for "love" and is heartbroken.
nothing to do now but sweep up the pieces....

a hint for next time-
if you are looking for True Love fall in love before you have sex. (or anything like unto it; "anal,oral,GAYSEX,outercourse,blah,blah,blah....")
build a relationship of and based on emotional intimacy.
get to know the person. THEM. their mind. their personality. their essence.
love and fall in love with the person.
not the (temporarily) great hot sex you are having with their body.

when you love them so much that even if you never had sex with them you still would be happy spending your whole life with them (and, no- no cheating on the side...) then you may be ready.
it will take awhile to get to that point.
at least a year.
too long?
anything worth having is worth waiting for.
anything of value takes time to build.
a year or two building a relationship in exchange for the rest of your life with a person you love (and have great sex with) is really a great bargain.

or, do it Dan's way.
do it when ever with whomever.
blah blah.
bounce from one
"hot sex that turned into mental anguish (and oh look- a new STD!)"
so-called-relationship to another

grab the short term pleasure, pay for it with your happiness.

the choice is really clear
it's been that way forever
there have always been pied pipers like Dan telling you the rules don't apply to US but they're wrong.
Savage "Love" is a daily proof of the misery and heartache that irresponsible unwise sexual behavior ALWAYS HARVESTS

sorry your heart got broken
you sound like a nice lady who deserves better
you are worth 'it'; the wait, doing it right; go find a guy who appreciates that and have a happy life.....
"Chastising her for the bait and switch is just crap. "

This. I don't see any bad faith at all in the LW. She's the one who has been doing all the adapting, and he won't even meet a civil request to leave one particular person out of it. My guess is that he's one of those guys who equate being an asshole with being "daring" and "unconventional" and sneer at those who won't respect his oh-so-specialness. That's not kink or GGG that's just being a douche.

I'd also wager that he's happiest not when he's helping her push her boundaries, but pushing her to do something she doesn't want to do. Maybe the latter was, for a while, also the former, but now that it isn't his selfish insistence on bulling forward nonetheless speaks volumes.

LW: Run, don't walk, away from this prat.
@44 wow- that was good.


" .... I've never understood people who are up for anything with someone they're into—dirty talk, rough sex, groups (real or imagined)—until they fall in love with that person. Shouldn't falling in love, and the deepening feelings of trust and comfort that goes along with it, open a couple up to new possibilities, new horizons, new sexual adventures?" Dan Savage

Let's cut to the chase for Dan:
"I've never"

Dan doesn't get that sex is not love.

Sex is a powerful human drive and emotion that can be used
for great good
or great destruction.

Used wisely it will enhance Love and strengthen the bond between two people in Love.
Used unwisely it will rip apart relationships and families.

Fire may warm the family at the hearth or burn the house down.
Atomic energy may be harnessed in a power plant to light the city
or released in a bomb to destroy the city.

Sex, when confined to spouse, can strengthen and intensify the bond between husband and wife or- when engaged in outside marriage, can/will rip the family apart.

Sex is a powerful force.
Use it wisely to your benefit.
Use it unwisely to your regret.

Dan is all about the unwise use of sex.
It's actually a great strategy for a sex "advice" columnist.
People who follow Dan's advive will always end up disappointed in the end.
.....great for repeat business.

"I've never understood..."

Does Dan give people destructive advice on purpose or is he just ignorant?

@44 says:

"when you love them so much that even if you never had sex with them you still would be happy spending your whole life with them (and, no- no cheating on the side...) then you may be ready.
it will take awhile to get to that point.
at least a year."

Yeah. Good luck with that.
@47 I was just thinking that! (Although hadn't processed enough coffee yet to form a response...)

What @44, and alter-ego "." propose for marriage is really more of a "good buddies" scenario, like being married to your best friend. That is certainly a Hallmark-worthy sentiment, "I married my best friend, and life is great," it negates the reality that sex is, like it or not period troll, a huge part of marriage, and that differing needs in that department tear apart as many marriages as you presume affairs do. Your position, if I understand it, is that if you spend a year with someone (no sex) and you still like each other enough to marry after that time, then when you do marry, the sex will be inconsequential, because the important thing is that you and your spouse are best friends. Most people want more than that out of marriage, and most people already have best friends. IMO, they key to a successful marriage is not the absence of sex beforehand, period troll, but the compatibility of the two partners. For some people this may become clear after months (years?) of dating, and for some people a one night stand turns into forever. To be honest, I think compatibility is something of a cosmic crapshoot, as people change over time, and the lucky ones change in ways that move in the same direction. For example, my husband and I have almost nothing in common, if you were to draw a venn diagram of our interests, there might be two things in the middle, I am aghast at how little we knew each other when we married, and here we are 23 years later. Like I said, cosmic crapshoot. It certainly didn't hinge on when we had sex, that's for sure.
How it starts is how it will stay.

For you to start a relationship under one pretext, and then switch shit up is unfair to the dude.

Dan's being nice on this one, but I agree with his advice.
"Bait and switch" implies intent, and blaming this on the female psyche is just misogyny at its worst. Thankfully, Dan seems to understand this point.

When my boyfriend of over a decade and I got together I bottomed exclusively and kept up with his incredible libido because it was hella fun. But when the OMFG-THIS-IS-AMAZEBALLS newness wore off and my ass was sore and I asked to scale my ass-fuckings back to just once a day or every other day, I caught hell. Then when he asked me to top on occasion and I tried it for the first time ever, loved it, and thought, "whoa, this is way better" and didn't want to bottom any more, I was accused of bait and switch. Verbatim.

Since then, he's put things on the table that weren't there to begin with, too. Remember he never asked me to top until years in. And then there were the requests years later to open the relationship. None of this was part of the original deal. So did *he* bait and switch?

What I learned - and Dan seems to get, too - is that relationships change over time, people discover unexpected things about themselves, even if they're confounding, that mean their desires and even needs change. And that if her boyfriend wanted *exactly* the same thing he did four years ago and wants *exactly* the same thing years from now, he's boring. Just like she would be. People are dynamic, for fuck's sake.

So for those commenters who want to say she's baited and switched or that the deal you make at the outset of a relationship is set in stone, I say you're naive. Renegotiation happens. Sorry, but you just don't have realistic expectations of what a relationship with a human being is like.
@50 While bait and switch does imply intent, it is not always about intent.

This woman is lambasting her boyfriend for not adapting with her. Her boyfriend was probably pissed that she changed, and rather liked the original deal. He may have even tried the no fantasy route, and found he didn't like it.

She is also putting a pity party on for herself. Oh, look at poor me. I did things I would never have done because I loved him. I swore I would never have tried new sex positions (?!), new naughty outfits (?!) if it weren't for him. This girl firmly has internalized the Madonna-Whore complex, and is now blaming the guy for falling in love with the whore but not wanting the Madonna.

It's really neither's fault, but if he doesn't want to renegotiate to more vanilla standard sex terms, and she's unhappy, she needs to leave and not put the blame on the bf. The bf will have the same sexuality he had when he entered, and, if he leaves because hers changed, I wouldn't blame him. She changed, he didn't buy that change, they broke up. Its life.

But, he was honest about it throughout. She's having a bit of self-deception over who's really doing the post-change manipulations here.
For the love of god, DMTFA. It isn't ever going to get better.
@51 Using the term "bait and switch" does imply intent, period. So does "manipulations". What's dishonest about having evolving desires? What's manipulative about trying hard to accommodate the other's needs, and being frustrated that the other person doesn't budge? You say her sexuality changed, but if her sexuality was always in motion in response to circumstances, it hasn't actually changed at all. It's just not static like his. Not her fault, not uncommon, and not something she should have to apologize or suffer for. What if her base understanding of their contract was "we will both listen to and being open to enjoying each others desires", not "we will fantasize about other people"? If that's the case, he's the one who's reneged, not her.
We can't control our emotions, but we can control our reactions to them.

NGE, there's no man alive who is ONLY turned on by his partner. If I were you, I'd be looking for a new boyfriend--one who's smart enough not to remind you constantly of that fact. It seems like the guy you're with now likes to rub your face in it, and that's not nice. If you can't assert yourself in this relationship, it's doomed. Stop begging, and thinking he'll do what you want if you roll over for him when he asks, and start telling him what you want, and what the consequences will be (you'll drop his ass) if he doesn't start going along with your desires for a change. If he's not willing to do that, let him try to find another woman who'll put up with the shit you've been putting up with. I doubt there are many women out there like you, and that gives you some leverage. Use it already!

Oh, one more thing: If you're the type to issue threats, but not follow through on them, it's time to grow up. You're right on schedule to do just that. (A woman in her mid-to-late 20s often starts asserting herself more, and if she's been with the same guy since her early 20s, the guy sometimes resents her newfound lower tolerance level for b.s.) If your boyfriend can't adjust to thinking of you as someone who doesn't have to do his bidding, it's time to find a man who'll treat you with more respect.
@JackDitch (#34) loved your post. And I hope the person who wrote post #44 will becoming a registered user. We could use more of that point of view around here (though I can imagine it not being all that popular with the "sex is more important than love" crowd).
If I heard "It hurts me when you bring up other girls" after years of her getting off on it, i'd think it was manipulation. If she's been getting more resistant with every step forward in the relationship, it begins looking like a control issue. Consider this from his perspective.

Dan, I've got a problem. I've been dating this hot little freak for four years. She's the hottest thing on Earth, and we both shared many of the same fetishes. Or, at least we used to.

You see, when we first were getting together, we'd get off on all these fantasies about her being so hot that other people had to use her. We'd use everybody in our fantasies. Strangers from the bar, aquaintences, co-workers. Nobody was off limits. Not only was she GGG, she got off on it. We even fucked on cam for a bunch of strangers. It was so fucking HOT!

Lately, she's been tightening the ropes. As I get into these multi-person fantasies, she starts whining about how I'm always thinking about other people, and why is she not enough for me. She's been getting pissy about who I fantasize about, and talk about. She's even gone so far to say how much I hurt her when I talk about my fantasies, even though she used to get off on the same situations.

I loved my little freak, and want her back. I don't want this monogamous vanilla relationship that she's been hinting subtly (and not so subtly) at. I want to have a hot piece of ass. How can I get her back?
@55: Are you new? There is entirely too much of @44 around here. He's a troll and an idiot who seems to spend most of his time sitting around his mother's basement, writing breathless posts (probably with one hand) about Dan leading us to Gomorrah (at least he spelled it correctly this time). He's a deeply closeted self-hating homosexual who will probably be busted for public indecency, sucking cock in a bus station toilet somewhere outside Omaha. He is to be pitied, not encouraged.
@57 He isn't just encouraging it, he's feeding it from the table. Bad dog!

I think Babydaddy @50 does a really good job explaining the rational side of an evolving and changing relationship, but I think the thing about this particular letter is that it's an example of someone (and it usually seems to be women) who wants to do less than they did in the beginning, once the relationship becomes secure. Which begs the question: Do women subconsciously do things that they don't really want to do, thinking that it will make them more appealing, and then as they become secure in the relationship, begin to feel that they no longer have to do the things that make them uncomfortable since they've "got" their partner?
Dear Misanthrope's very convincing imaginary friend (@56),

You've spent four years with this woman and the only thing you noticed or cared about was the hot piece of ass and the uninterrupted supply of sex fantasies? What changed for her? What do you think she needs to feel secure again? Do you give a shit? Are you even remotely interested in how she feels, or is it all just 'pissy whining' if it doesn't go your way?

Good luck finding your next sexbot.
@58, no doubt there are women (and men) who do that, but it seems a pretty cynical way of interpreting the trend to me. LW is clear that it was emotional commitment that changed the game for her, but she's also clear that she got LESS secure in the relationship rather than more. That's not uncommon as people get more committed. She's more emotionally invested, there's more at risk for her, and in the absence of adequate reassurance the risk has outstripped the hotness of their earlier play. It's not surprising that her fears are escalating rather than diminishing - her partner gives every sign that for him maintaining the fantasy is more important than flexibility or responsiveness to each other's needs in the relationship. That's not to say she's necessarily *capable* of being reassured (who knows, doesn't sound like he's tried) and if she's one of those who are not, she's responsible for this.

But I also think that the death of that fantasy for her makes sense in another way. Maybe her enjoyment of the idea of being out there fucked by the multitudes expressed stuff - pleasure, fear, whatever - about her actual experience of being emotionally unattached. Now she's attached, and that's not where her head or her heart is. She may well have other interesting fantasies.
According to the LW, the ONLY thing that changed is she fell in love. He didn't do ANYTHING wrong until she started complaining about their sex life...according to the letter. There was no affair, no contacts with other women, no ANYTHING to make her insecure other than her own insecurity. According to her, the only thing that will make her feel more secure is a change in the sex life that brought them together in the first place. And, according to her, the only problem with the guy seems to be with their sex life...the thing that brought them together in the first place (it bears repeating). So, what more SHOULD he be doing outside of changing the sex life that brought them together in the first place? Maybe it's boring to want the same thing or have the same fantasies over and over...but that's how he's wired, and she thought it was hot when she fell in love with him.

Other people have noted that she doesn't seem to be at all constructive and is uber-passive in the bed department. Non-constructive complaining IS pissy whining. You might call his refusal to renegotiate on his sexuality as asshole move...but, it's a bitch move to sign up for one thing, change, then blame him for not wanting to change with her AND throwing herself a pity party for it.
@61, you're right: she didn't change her sexual desires because he did something wrong. It's not a punishment or a bitch move. It's just what happened. I doubt she has any more control over it than he does over finding the sharing fantasies hot.

It's not even remotely unusual for people to get more insecure and need more reassurance one way or another, as relationships get more invested - hence marriage. It's unfortunate her insecurity (possibly among other things) is resulting in a sexual clampdown, but if I were her partner of four years I'd be a) concerned at so much insecurity in someone I loved, and b) wanting to do what I could to figure it out with her, at least as far as c) reciprocating the GGG she's given since her desires changed. There's every chance that that kind of responsiveness and care would be enough to reassure her and open her up again. Instead he's acting all pissy and entitled and riding roughshod over what she says she wants.

As for the whining, show me a letter to the advice columnist that isn't whiny. Why do people read these things expecting the letter-writer to already have it figured out? If you want to shoot fish in a barrel, go comment on IA.
@55 and others: Don't drag me in with the crowd crying Gomorrah. My "lead with love" advice is for people who ain't afraid to lead with sex. Saving up everything you'd like to try even once (or only twice or a few hundred times) until you've found the great love of your life can be just another way of letting sex get in the way of love. NGE's lucky that the incompatibility she's discovering is with her boyfriend, and the worst of her problem is that she's less inclined to fantasize about sex with others because she loves him now. How much worse it would be if the incompatibility was with her husband, and the problem was that she's less inclined to love him now that they've actually had a few years of sex. We who weren't obsessed with saving ourselves have the good fortune to face problems such as hers.
"Why did she love him so much? He always seemed to women different from what he was, and they loved in him not himself, but the man created by their imagination, whom they had been eagerly seeking all their lives; and afterwards, when they noticed their mistake, they loved him all the same. And not one of them had been happy with him. Time passed, he had made their acquaintance, got on with them, parted, but he had never once loved; it was anything you like, but not love."

I have nothing of value to add here. I just thought of this Chekhov excerpt while reading and decided to post it. From "Lady With A Dog", 1899.
@ 58:
"Do women subconsciously do things that they don't really want to do, thinking that it will make them more appealing, and then as they become secure in the relationship, begin to feel that they no longer have to do the things that make them uncomfortable since they've "got" their partner?"

Surely you've heard the old jokes:
Why is the bride smiling while she walks down the aisle? She knows she's given her last blowjob.
What's the difference between your job and your wife? After 5 years, your job still sucks.
@65 - conversely, men are more conscientious about their grooming when they are dating, and often don't reveal their true priorities until after the wedding... We all act our "best selves" when dating, that's not going to change.

On the other hand, realizing that your partner is still attractive to other people -- that can help restore sexual interest on the part of a spouse who had gotten out of the habit of being GGG.
@64 - thanks for posting. Off to read the story.
@65 If I had heard them, I had forgotten, so thanks for the laugh!

Erica P, Mr. Canuck has hygiene issues, as in, "but I had a shower yesterday!" I sometimes say, "that's okay, I'm sure the guys standing in line with me at the coffee shop will smell good, so don't worry about it!" As of yet, my little nudges have had no effect...sigh.
I feel for her. No one can know (especially at her age) that all those wild, sexy fantasies were just substitutes for true intimacy and love. How are you supposed to know at 21 that being unattached and carefree might change if you became attached and fell in love? It's no one's fault that underneath her casual facade, there was something much deeper that might dislodge the surface.

It's sad, but I guess that's why they say "live and learn" many things can change in your early 20s. It's no one's fault that there was something underneath her carefree exterior but he was "what you see is what you get." Good thing they didn't get married.
Canuck, I bet his hygiene issues aren't of the same magnitude as the overweight, hairy butt odor guy from this week's SL :-) But you could consider stepping up the nudges and telling Mr. C. that you enjoyed having coffee with one of those guys ...
Ah, Erica, he's already threatening to put a GPS in my car, seems to think I like to spice up the Costco runs, or something :) ...and no, ooo, nothing close to hairy bum guy, yoikes, that was a "don't read during lunch" column for sure. I've tried introducing the motto: "Foreplay begins in the morning when you shave!" but to no avail. Alas, there doesn't seem to be a connection between jealousy and soap in his scientific mind, so all of my plotting and hinting is for nought, it is truly a tragedy, made all the more ironic by my excellent sense of smell :(

don't all canadian men smell like bacon anyway?
or is it ham?...
OK, everyone, let me chime in a bit. Everyone knows I am all for the hottest, GGG sex possible. But this BF sounds like a total douche to me too. He is unwilling to honor her smallest requests, and punishes her with guilt trips for making them. She will wake up one day and realize that they never, ever made love. They only ever fucked. And just fucking gets old, too. She has to actively disconnect her emotions and that's not healthy. I wonder if they even ever kiss. This guy sounds like he just goes stampeding straight into porn stuff. BORING. SELFISH. PRICK.

@71 - maybe start a new routine of soapy handjobs in the shower?
Excellent advice, Erica! And one I'm sure Mr. Canuck would be on-board with, too, despite the side-effect of less grunge... :)
I was thinking the other day about how every time I masturbate, I fantasize about 2 men--my boyfriend, and then some other guy (sometimes it's this guy, sometimes it's that guy). It's pretty much never just my bf. And then I laughed because if I knew that every time my bf mastrubated he never thought about only me--NEVER, just like I NEVER think about only him--I'd freak a little. I laughed because part of me recognizes the fallicy in this feeling, but the other part of me recognizes why the feeling is there, and I think both can coexist. I once told my bf that while I didn't have any problem with him looking at porn, I wanted clarification on why he liked what he liked. He took this as me actually having a problem with it. That's when I told him that I sometimes have two conflicting emotions about the same thing. Sometimes I can recognize the natural nature of most erotic fantasy and desire but my ego says, "I want to be the only one!" This is rarely a problem in my relationship because my bf is generally pretty good about complimenting me and making me feel special on a regular basis, so even if other people come up or we look at some porn, I know where his true affections and desires lie. My guess would be that the LW's bf isn't bringing it back to her enough. She could probably handle all this fantasy and dirty talk if he took the time to regularly tell her, "But you're the hottest chick in the world." She'd probably still have her, "I want it to be only about me!" moments (again, two feelings in the same body=totally natural), but she might be able to reason with herself. If all I ever heard during sex was dirty talk about other people, I'd probably start to wonder what the deal was myself.
@15 is totally right - there are conflicting reasonable and unreasonable requests here. "I am hurt whenever you think of someone else" is very, very different from "could you, once in awhile, make it clear to me that I'm hot by myself, as well as with other people?" If LW is putting on the latter stance as a way to cover up the fact that she really wants the former, she's being unreasonable. If the former stance is a result of the fact that her boyfriend never ever tells her fantasies about just her, and she really would be ok with the multiples fantasy as long as she got some other stuff also, then she's being fine. I'm reminded of Dan's responses to a guy who wrote saying something like, "I found a girl to indulge my kink, and I'm so excited about her, and now I indulge it every time we're together. But she seems to be less into it than before, wtf?" Dan told the guy that he was taking advantage of the girl's GGGness, and he needed to mix it up with some other stuff.

I'm in a somewhat similar situation to the LW. I think that a major difference is that we've actually acted on those fantasies. The LW might want to consider saying, "hey, as long as I can find a really hot guy who I'm really attracted to, why don't we bring him into the bedroom too?" My experience is that most guys who fantasize about this sort of thing but don't suggest actually doing it are, deep down, a little insecure and jealous. It sounds kind of like HE is sure it won't happen and is therefore confident that the fantasies are just that, and SHE is not so sure, and therefore insecure. If this issue is seriously threatening the relationship anyway, bringing someone else into it (per the fantasies) could teach you both a lot about what you want out of sex, and might very well help him understand what it feels like to be "not so sure" that the hot, lovable significant other might get taken away by the fantasy object.
It sounds to me like she just wants him to make love to her every once in awhile. Fucking is fucking, and it's important and awesome, but when you are in love with someone it's nice if sex can occasionally reflect that. As in, 'I love you so much I must express it physically.' Not, 'I'm horny and wouldn't it be great if I got to fuck you and your best friend and ...'

He's douchey, and she changed rules in the middle of the game.

Whether his desires are fair or not, she knew what they were and embraced them. It is unfair to expect commitment to coexist peacefully with retraction of benefits.

Even if he's an asshole, he has integrity when it comes to standing up for who he is. She claims to love him but hate that he still is what he was before. Her inconsistency is the real problem, and if she's not up to being what she showed him she was early in the relationship, then she should leave. Not DTMFA. Leave, because you are not the person who should be in this relationship anymore. And apologize.
"I once told my bf that while I didn't have any problem with him looking at porn, I wanted clarification on why he liked what he liked. He took this as me actually having a problem with it. "

I can't imagine why a man who is confronted with a demand to explain his porn tastes like some errant schoolboy caught in naughtiness would react with hostility. Can't imagine at all.

Seriously: do you honestly not get why? Or are you just wilfully blind? Dipping questions you had no right to ask in self-rationalizing therapyspeak doesn't make them any less intrusive, unwelcome or presumptuous. You called him out and demanded that he lay out for you why he does and doesn't feel this or that over his most private, intimate and personal individual sexual activity, and then you're startled that he got defensive. Do you genuinely believe that if you phrase your question like a counsellor then "None Of Your Goddamned Business!" magically no longer applies to you?
@71: Have you tried sitting him down and talking to him about things, rather than plotting and hinting? It always worries me a little when people hint rather than clearly communicate.
Oh BlackRose, I am an East Coaster by birth...of course I've talked to him! "O please, please darling husband of mine, please take a mutherlovin' shower every day and don't wait until 11:30pm to shave, oy!" The odd thing is, and I believe it *may* have something to do with the fact that he has a penis, I say things, and it's like on Harry Potter when he pulls those memories out of his brain and stores them in a jar, except hubby loses the jar. Or maybe the neurons only engage when certain words are said, like "sex," or "hockey," or "baby back ribs," I haven't figured it out yet. Probably it can be traced back to some really aggressive toilet training, his parents were recently British, after all. Yes, my life is quite the tragedy, luckily, there is wine and chocolate.
This chick is precisely why I get on my knees and thank Jesus every day that I was born a fag.
@81 Pardon me for being curious about why my lover likes what he likes. Asking questions about our most intimate partner's tastes is not dipping into what is none of our business in my opinion. He had every right to say that he found that to be none of my business, but we ended up having a very nice, trust-building conversation launched by my asking of said question. You know what I don't get? People who are quick to say, "That's none of your business!" to their most intimate partners. He gets to decide what is my business, and in our house, we like to explore things with openness and honesty. I didn't ask the question in a hostile manner; I asked it out of curiosity and, yes, for a little reassurance. He only took it as hostile because of previous experiences with other ex-gfs, and once we sorted all that out, we both grew a little both as individuals and a couple as a result. I just wanted to know more about yet another facet of my lover's life. He seems to appreciate that.
Oh, yeah, and I'd just like to add...Dan once encouraged me to talk to my lover about his porn preferences for my own piece of mind.
@20: Um, what? I basically pointed out she's changed too much for her BF, while he, according to the letter, has really done nothing to help, even just *refraining from oversharing.* If he had done that and she kept freaking out, I would have withheld more judgment on the BF's part. But from the sounds of it, he didn't even care about that. So yeah, I assigned problems on both sides.

Nooooooo, I don't believe that I can "change" men, at least in the narrow, extreme sense you seem to mean it. I mean, unless you mean by "changing" a guy, my boyfriend and I talk about sex/masturbation and porn, play video games together, and generally treat each other like people rather than romantic commodities. And no, I'm not looking for a ring either. Heck, he's the one who really materially benefits from this partnership since I'm the one with health insurance (we have joked about this).

I think that because of the nature of long-term relationships, they necessarily will see change, and I do think that relationships can survive a certain amount of change ... BUT that's dependent on all kinds of factors, all to be decided by the partners involved.

Personally, I think people, *on the whole*, overreact to what is defined as change, and underrate how much they actually change during a relationship. I also think people misunderstand what it means to "try" in a relationship ... it doesn't always mean success. Sometimes it means you try and find out it really isn't going to work anyway. But an undesired outcome doesn't negate the effort ... it's like a science experiment.

Hah. I seriously wish you could talk to my boyfriend, because he'd set you straight on your attitude (although I have no illusions that he'd call me the perfect girlfriend, that's for sure!)

But guessing from your twitchy tendency to scream judgment, you'd probably think either that he's whipped and been completely manipulated into his relationship, or that he's lying through his teeth to keep me happy. In the big picture, that wouldn't bother me, except you'd be slandering quite honestly the most trustworthy and patient person I know, and that would REALLY get my fucking hackles up.
@81: I think you're wrapping that story in a lot of aggressive language. Demanding? Called him out? I mean, yeah, if you do it like THAT, I'd get why a man might be defensive.

But there's some difference in acting like a rain of fire is going to descend if each desire isn't justified or blamed on a childhood trauma, and wanting to know what turns your BF on. From anecdotes on Slog and Savage Love, it's clearly possible for it to be a positive experience, for a lot of couples who have shared their personal fantasies and masturbatory habits with each other.

I understand other people may prioritize masturbation as a more private activity than sex (I don't really do anymore, but I still see why) but if your partner doesn't see it the same way, there's potential conflict. The least you can do is explain why you feel differently, rather than freaking out and issuing end-all statements like "none of your business!"

And I sympathize with men who believe that that kind of talk is a minefield, and I also think women totally should be understanding and accommodating if they feel they're being frustrated by someone else's conditioning or bad prior experiences. I've done that by sharing my own feelings, joking at my own expense, admitting I'll be flawed but I'll try, admitting I have problems sharing sometimes too, etc. It put my BF at greater ease and has really helped him open up to me.

BUT, you know, if you love a woman ... give her some credit. Lumping her in with all your crazy exes or your friends' insane stories is just a wee bit of an insult, right? Do you really want to be with a woman who instills fear in you for being sexy and honest?

Or on the flipside, if you're just not the sharing type, you can do her the credit of explaining and hoping she understands (because she loves you!). Or if you're a game guy, maybe you can try her for her sake (because you love her!), and it might turn out for the better.

Seriously, all this drama, people!
@83: Oh yes, the Pensieve from Harry Potter! I wish that were real.

I meant, not just request as a passing comment that he adopt some grooming request (which, to be honest, I would ignore or forget also), but actually sit him down, tell him that there's something important you need his help with, tell him this is a big issue for you, and make it clear how much it means to you. I've definitely seen communication failures in my own relationships, where a partner swears she told me something many times, but it wasn't presented in a way where I could set it aside, prioritize it, and listen to it.

It's not so much that someone needs to say certain key words, as much as tell me at a time I'm not distracted, give me space and time to engage with it, and make it clear that it's something she needs.

I would certainly treat the thought "argh, she's bugging me to groom the way she wants again," very differently than "she needs my help with this and needs a change for her to be happy and sexually fulfilled."
@88 Thanks. You said all of that beautifully.

Also, I'd just like to go ahead and correct myself. I said "piece of mind" in my comment above, and I meant "peace of mind". Whoops! Shit happens.
@89 Yeah, good points, BlackRose. It does help for awhile (direct asking), but then things drift back...I end up thinking my choices are to ignore/deal with it, or become a harpie. And I try to remind myself that he puts up with my weirdness, or what passes for weird on the Canadian prairies!
@91: I hate to see highly sexual women be dissatisfied. I think being a harpie would be counterproductive, which is why I suggested creating a specific time and context to discuss it, rather than just offhand complaining.

But if things drift back, then you can talk about it again, except it's a different problem: "You were doing so great satisfying me and I was so happy! Can you please do it again? I'd love it and I'd do X for you..."

There are also other options: completely ignore it and see if he responds better to that; try doing something equivalent that he doesn't like (not shaving or washing or whatever); bargain with him/bribe him; just not have sex with him unless he showers (in a way that doesn't trigger his stubbornness, like "Shower for me and then I'll really want you, sexy"); or have a more serious discussion and make it clear that this really is jeopardizing the relationship. But I know you've tried a lot of that already. :(

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