"And while it's nice to have some company in the closet, our straight family members don't like the closet any more than we do." awesome!

nice work, sister-
you're very sly.....
Nice to have such . . . problems.

Hold on.

Can someone turn on the HYPOCRASY WEBCAM?

Suppose you were heterosexual and your lover were male.

Would you have him in a "sleepover" situation with your STEP-sister?

This is pedosexual behavior at it's worst.

Your girlfriend could be using you to get to the 11 year old.

That's the world we live into today.

Anyone who things this is a good thing is a pervert.
Anyone who Things anything cannot spell.

Anyone who is more concerned with spelling than child abuse deserves to be in an insane asylum.
Holy crap, Bailo, have you ever been, gee, I don't know, camping with family members?

This girl needs to relax and come out already, and you need to dislodge the tent pole engaged firmly in your ass.
When my older sister came out to me at age 26, I was 13. And, man, was I was angry at her. Not because she was gay--on the contrary, I thought it only made her cooler--but because she had told everyone else in our immediate family before she had told me. I was furious to learn that everyone had kept it secret for about two years before she told me herself. Do yourself and your little sis a favor and tell her before she resents being shut out of the family.
Supreme Ruler of the Universe: the stepsister has a lot more chance of being a victim of a pedophile in church than at home with her sister. Shame on you.
As the niece of a gay man who didn't give me or my brother much credit at that age, either - he waited till I was 17 and I'm not sure he's ever told my younger brother - I gotta say, yeah, Dan is SO right on the money. I've had gay friends - good ones - since I was 13, and while I had moments where I wondered if I was overthinking my uncle's relationship with his "best friend," mostly I just wondered why he didn't trust that I'd still love him.

Once he did come out to me, though, the death-stare I got from my mom if ever I risked outing him to my bro were SO wearing. And the thing is, your sister probably has already heard similar things that earned other family members the death-stare. She probably at least suspects. When kids grow up with it, they cease to think anything's wrong with LGBTQ folk. My cousin's stepsister and her girlfriend came over on Thanksgiving this year and were cuddling on the couch watching football while the dog chased my cousin's 7-year-old daughter around the family room. She didn't throw up, she won't need therapy, and the only time she cried was when the dog knocked her over, at which point they stopped cuddling with each other and pulled her onto the couch between them.
@4 Double standard, yeah. But knowing the point you were making even as I was reading your post didn't stop that scenario from giving me the willies. Also, my sarcasm-o-meter has been off lately so maybe I am missing that as well in your post.
@8 totally. Younger kids raised in accepting homes are more accepting than you think.

Also, is it wrong for parents to snuggle up together next to their kids on a sleepover night? Or on the couch? I mean, really...paranoia much?
I grew up with a gay family member. No one ever outed her to me or anything. I just found out that her girlfriend was coming to thanksgiving. The normalcy with which my parents presented the situation shaped my views towards homosexuality. If they had taken me aside and warned me that some ladies like ladies and my aunt is one of them, I may read into the situation, and created my views of homosexuality completely differently.

With kids, I don't think there should be any coming out, because you're telling them that homosexuality is a thing that is supposed to be kept secret, that it makes people uncomfortable. I think ALGIN is doing her sister a disservice. Think of the adult (with political views and the right to vote) she will become.
I think ALGIN needs to come out ESPECIALLY because her step-sister is 11. Considering her seemingly open and accepting parents, it's likely she was raised that way, but middle school is tough. It's good for her to see that someone she is close to is gay, so that she can be even more supportive if a friend comes out to her within the next few years. She sees it on TV, she hears it in school (usually not positively), it would be good for her to understand that it's real.

And I know (or at least hope) Supreme Rule of the Universe is trolling, but yes, people can and will leave their children with couples (heterosexual or homosexual) that they know and trust. I wouldn't leave my child with a random guy off the street, but the person who my stepdaughter had been dating for over two years, regardless of gender, yes.
Jeez, even if there was a little quiet groping and tongue, you didn't do anything wrong, particularly if the kid is known not to be a seriously light sleeper. Remember The Grapes of Wrath? Wasn't the young couple SCREWING in the back of the truck in the presence of a younger sibling and dead grandmother?

I'm not saying you should be filming porn in the presence of minors, but in the not-very-distant past, most 11-year-olds would have seen actual mating by dogs, cats, ducks, chickens, sheep, pigs, cattle, and/or horses, and some PDA is pretty much universal now. Don't they start sex-ed in about 6th grade these days? You're not going to blow the kid's mind with an aggressive hug.
Bailo is just being Bailo. (Where does the name come from, by the way?)

Come out already. Stepsis isn't going to turn green and run to the nearest pedophile priest for help, now will she?

Apologize for that? As Dan says, if nothing happened, there's nothing to apologize for. (Frankly, I'm not even sure you need to mention the incident to stepsis.)
In the immortal words of The L Word's Shane McCutchen:

"Oh, quit being such a lez!"
RE: SL Letters of the Day:

Is this our choice: a very eloquently written letter describing a really boring non-problem or some dopey scrawls grunting about a more complex dilemma?

I vote for the scrawls.
4: Just because you would be all over that 11-year-old doesn't mean everyone else would.

Not saying it's impossible; just saying that it's very telling that this is a "definite" outcome in your mind.

@13: Even if they don't have a big 'coming out' conversation, the little sis deserves to be told that LW is dating her 'friend'. And see 8 for a really good perspective on it.
@16: Jesus, you people make me feel old. Let gramps explain:

In the beginning, there was Ecce Homo. Itchy was the ur-troll of Slog. After a while, Ecce Homo went away. After that, there was John Bailo. However, Bailo eventually gave up Slog and moved to other sites like Horse's Ass and STB. Not long after, SROTU showed up. Most people think ol' SCROTE writes an awful lot like the Bailo used to. Thus the name.
I agree with #13. Everyone is making this a way bigger deal than it needs to be. All the LW really needs to do is to refer to her girlfriend as just that (maybe using more definitive words like partner or lover) around her stepsister. There doesn't have to be any sort of 'I'm gay' coming out, not for kids that young. It should just be normalized - some women have boyfriends, some have girlfriends, and her older stepsister is one of the ones who has a girlfriend.

And if the younger stepsister reacts with any kind of 'Eeeeew' attitude, then it's probably time to sit her down for a chat, but otherwise, I don't see a need to make a federal case out of it.
@22 ... Maybe not use the awkward word "lover." That gives *me* the willies. I can only imagine how an eleven-year-old would feel.
First, my nephews have known I'm gay basically since they were born. None of us has ever made any attempt to keep it secret that their Uncle Reverse Polarity dated boys, not girls. No problems at all so far, and they are older than your stepsister.

Second, it wasn't until the industrial revolution (mid-1800s) that it became common to have separate bedrooms. Prior to that, most average people lived in single room dwellings. Whatever action occurred happened in front of the kids with nothing but a blanket for privacy. What you did in front of your stepsister happened in most households the world over for thousands of years.
Oh dear. Michael Jackson comes to mind. What if she were heterosexual. Would she have allowed her adult boyfriend to sleep in the same bed with her 11 year old step sister? I doubt it. Obivously nothing bad happened ... but the step sister needs to know that it was absolutely not sexual. Adults can be loving with out being sexual, but it' not a good thing to do.
@23: "Lover" is an awkward word? Since when? Maybe if we start normalizing it with the kids, they'll grow up with it and they won't think it's weird when they get older.
@4 That is really over reaching and it even sounds a bit homophobic really. ALGIN is reaching out for support and obviously cares for the well-being of her little sister. Also, if you want to bring stereotypes into it-Her girlfriend is probably a granola eating, birkenstock wearing feminist who would never hurt anyone, let alone an 11 year old girl, and wants to be a mom someday herself.

You just can't walk around assuming the worst of everyone, when in reality most people have no interest in harming your kids. Taking every incident of an over-affectionate uncle or friend that makes you even the slightest uncomfortable and making it mean that they're probably an ax murderer, pedophile or rapist won't make the world a safer place. The unfortunate reality is that there really isn't any insurance that will take every street corner, every mall, every home, every business, every friend, every aquaintance and make them all safe. And if there was, we would be living in a police state. Using your best judgment about people doesn't mean always assuming the worst possibility is also the most likely one.

The price of a free society is risk. We all assume that risk. 9/11 happened and we still fly. Bad things happen on the news and we still leave the house. You take whatever precautions you can and leave the rest to God. There's simply no way to be 100% sure about every single person that enters your life.

C'mon gays...Can you stop with the partner/lover thing already? What's wrong with using BF/GF or Husband/Wife like a normal person?
What an overreaction.

First, Dan himself suggested that in the future they should sleep on separate mattresses. If it were a hetero couple, I could see him suggesting the exact same thing with no problem.

Second, wouldn't the worst form of pedosexual behavior be actual child rape and not merely sleeping next to your older sister and her girlfriend?

Finally, your second to last sentence is in error. Your terrified imagination may be the world that you live in today, but it's not the world that rational people live in.
I don't care if #4 is a troll or not, I think he's right that if the situation were different, say if it were an older sister with her boyfriend sleeping with the little sister, there would be (well deserved) red flags going up everywhere.

And #9, if you think children are more likely to be molested in church than by family members or family friends, you are severely brainwashed.
@28: husband/wife is inapplicable where same-sex marriage isn't recognized, and bf/gf isn't really fitting when a couple has made a lifelong commitment.
@ 23: I suggested using 'lover' because an eleven year old might misunderstand 'girlfriend.' I'm a straight lady, but I hang out with my girlfriends all the time. Since the point of the LW's question is how to get her stepsister to realize that she's not just 'best friends' with her partner, I foresaw a sitcom-esque situation where the stepsister understood the word differently than how it was intended. However, 'beloved' or 'partner' or something similar would work just as well.

And some people have a point that red flags would be going up if the LW's partner was a dude. I still think it's silly. For one, SHE WASN'T A DUDE! The LW might not even have countenanced that situation had she been dating a dude.
@17 Yeah, to paraphrase a Danism: "way to go and lesbo things all up."

Jeez, people, don't freaking over analyze the little shit in life.
I don't get it. Why would falling asleep with your girlfriend and your little sister at the same time be inappropriate, as long as you and your girlfriend weren't having sex? Isn't thinking that this may be wrong catering to that anti-gay thought that homosexuals are also sexually attracted to children of the same sex? When I was little I sometimes crawled into bed with my parents who presumably had a sexual relationship and I don't think that's inappropriate. I assume that on more than one occasion Dan's son has crawled into bed with his dads but they are his DADS - also not inappropriate. Cuddling with your girlfriend while your little sister is sleeping next to you is also totally innocent. Americans are such prudes!
Yay! 31 What if ALGIN was a dude? Is all babysitting pederasty because "what if"? The opinion of #4 and his supporters says a lot more about them than anything else. Should adult men never be left alone with children, ever. Straight adults hug and kiss in front of children all the time, sometimes even when the child is awake, and looking at them, there's even a cliche reaction of the child going *covers eyes* "ewww" then the adults laugh.

ALGIN come out to her but don't even mention the kissy hugggy sleepover unless she directly asks if you did it that night it, you'll be awkward about it which will make it weird. If she does ask then act like any secure adult in that situation and let her know that nothing happened.
@32: Most Americans under 30 or so do not use "girlfriend" to mean "female platonic friend." That usage sounds somewhat old-fashioned to me and it's fallen out of common use.
Oh for god's sake, I can't believe people are saying "pedo" whatever and saying sleeping on the same mattress was inappropriate. Reverse Polarity has it exactly right, people have been doing this since forever. Before I got married, my husband and I were babysitting 2 boys, who were about 4 and 6. We lived in a tent (long story, in Africa) and, you know, of course back then we did it about 3 times a day, so of course we ended up having sex in the same tent as the sleeping boys, and I didn't think it was going to warp them. Think of how many families do "family bed"? I think the letter writer is over-analyzing this. She and her girlfriend did nothing wrong.
I'd like to point out that the 11-year-old sister already knows her sister is gay. The older sister kissed her girlfriend goodnight in front of the younger one. No matter how "innocent", an 11-year-old can figure that out.

So she should just start talking to the 11-year-old about being a lesbian from the vantage point that she already knows and stop making such a big deal about it.
@ 36: Since when?!? I'm under 30, and so are most of my friends, and we use it all the time. Maybe it's a regional thing? And who the hell knows what slang is amongst the tween set these days, anyway?

Anyway, my point was, the problem is easily solved by dropping a word or two in the conversation to indicate that the LW is romantically involved with her partner, not making a huge production out of it. Word in question up to LW and mother.
Our society, and much of human society in general perceives all males to be potential abusers or rapists--hence the clear double-standard. Mammals aren't terribly well used to having heterosocial child-raising units. Females typically either behave independently or band together for their own protection, but rarely do they spend long lengths of time with males; a father-bear may, after all, decide to eat his young.

But it takes a much greater investment to raise humans--hence the development of heterosocial households. But I believe abuse, of one kind or another, to be extremely common in human households, and I do not think for a moment it is even predominantly by a male aggressor. But you would be surprised how well the coping mechanisms for some developing humans operate. There is so much misery and suffering in all that breathes; we, not as wilting flowers, but beasts of burden have always climbed atop the mountains of our dead; that is the way of all articulate life.
@26- To gay people (modern ones) the term "lover" gives most of us the willies. It's is a dated term, just like "homosexual"- and describes something weird and perverse. If the straights want it they can have it, but my partner/boyfriend/husband/companion/friend has never been, nor ever will be my "LOVER". gag...
and I do not think for a moment it is even predominantly by a male aggressor

Well, you would be wrong. It's not exclusively by a male aggressor by any means, but it is predominantly by a male aggressor.
My kids have known about The Gays since they were very small. Without years and years of homophobic brainwashing and acculturation, it's really not a big deal.

@4: Your bizarre comment suggests to me that you have serious psychological problems around sex. Whens the last time you got laid?
@13 I think you're actually making the same point Dan made, but from a different angle. Because, you're right; she shouldn't make coming out to her step-sister an OMG LESBIANISM moment. However, there does need to be some coming out, as in "Hey, sis, I should've told you this a long time ago, but Sarah is actually not just my best friend. She's my girlfriend; we're in a relationship. Sorry I didn't tell you sooner. I don't know why it took me so long." It's the relationship that she needs to come out about, not just her general status. Because, like you said, your family didn't try to pretend that there was anything to hide regarding your relative's girlfriend. Clearly ALGIN needs to stop acting like the truth of her relationship is something she needs to hide from her step-sister.
@39: That's surprising to me! Doesn't it get confusing? Do people ever tease you or joke around with you about being lesbian when you use the term? Do you use it in singular as well as plural, like, "I went there with my girlfriend"? Are you from the South?

@41: This is also surprising to me... 'lover' was used as a derogatory term for gay people? But wasn't it used for straight people also?
There is a double standard about women/men sleeping in the same bed as kids because there is a double standard in the number of sex assaults on children perpetrated by women vs. men. DUH.
I know it's very un-PC to say so, and I also know it can lead to the unfair demonization of men, but treating adult males and adult females differently with children makes sense. Men are much more likely to sexually abuse children than women. Sexual orientation, incidentally, is meaningless in such cases, as abuse of children goes on a whole separate sick track of its own.

Also a child is MUCH more likely to be abused by a family member or family friend than a member of the clergy. Disgusting either way, mind you, but the fact remains.

However I don't really see this situation as too problematic, even if you switched in a straight couple. A straight step-sister sleeping between the child and the bf would prevent all but the most stupid/depraved abuser from acting. I think it's probably a good idea to use separate bedding in the future though, since it's a bad idea to get children used to the idea of sleeping in the same bed with unrelated adults.

Oh and pussy the fuck up and come out. You'll probably find that your kid sister has a lot fewer hang-ups than you.
Neptune @44 has a perfect script for what to say. Just take your stepsister out for ice cream or go to the mall with her or whatever, and find an opportune moment to tell her that.

For crap's sake there is no reason to bring up the fact that everyone else in the family already knows, or that you once kissed your girlfriend in the same bed during a sleepover, unless your sis specifically asks about either of those things. Though if she asks you if everyone else knows - honesty and an apology for treating her like a little baby are in order.
Is there an acronym for "laughing so hard your eyes water?" Oh, never mind.

@21 Itchy? Hahahahaha

Scrote? Hahahahahaha

Thank you for that. Nice way to start my morning.
@40 Your comment is awesome, poetic, and deeply wise. Your last sentence, if taken to heart en masse, could put psychotherapists out of business.

I'll be sure to share it with mine.
@4 this is the sort of bullshit nonsense that leads to and spawns into the notion that any adult in any sort of isolated situation with youth who are not blood relatives are inherently sexual--the notion that all people are degenerate pedophiles waiting to explode little children and teens like the fucking Kool-Aid guy bursting through the wall screaming Oooh yeah!

Total horseshit. By your rationale all the times I've watched/hung out with my nieces--not blood relations, but by my marriage, who are today 12 & 14, and that I've on occasion watched and spent time with since they were 9 & 11--I'm a dirty monster. Funny, since it usually ends up us playing Xbox, talking about comics, sports, or bullshitting about whatever they want to talk about. Then again, you're a total lunatic on here, so I have no idea why I'm replying to you. You'll probably say or think that since I explained to my 14 year old niece-by-marriage once how the US President can be taken from office by Congress that I was "grooming" her. Most people aren't sickos.

I really wish you would just go balls-out nuts finally so they would have a reason to ban you.
When I was 16 I worked after school at a church daycare. As a boy, I wasn't allowed to change diapers because males are more likely to be sexual abusers of babies or something, so I had to work with older kids (not much older, really, but old enough to use a toilet).

In that particular situation I didn't complain.
good point #4 in general , but doesn't fit the facts in the letter. Investing 2 years into a relationship to 'get' at the 11 year old doesn't really fit the profile. When the gf starts volunteering to babysit on sleepovers alone...time to ring that bell.

The sad truth is non-biologic's under the same roof are the prime source of abuse. boyfriends, roommates, step-whatevers. To think its just priests and camp councellors is a little naive.

If someone says you've acted badly, and you agree, apologize, and then don't do what you did to offend him or her again. Otherwise, drop the shame already! There's no need for it in this situation.
While we're at it, straight women seriously need to stop calling their friends their girlfriends. Straight men have managed for centuries to (when necessary) convey the gender of their male friends without calling them boyfriends, so there's no need to use a confusing word that implies a romantic connection where none exists.

#32, you don't have any girlfriends unless you're a lesbian, bisexual or a straight man. And even then, you'd probably only have one. Why do you feel this overwhelming need to let people know the sex of your platonic friends?
Is it her half-sister or just a step-sister, like sister by alliance? Because if it's her half-sister, it's incest. But otherwise, you can hit that.
I'm really glad that she told us her girlfriend is beautiful.
This is the lamest SL Letter of the Day ever. I've had hangnails that were harder to fix than ALGIN's "problem."
Let me give the 11-year-old's perspective here - I WAS that 11-year-old, basically (except it was my mother). My parents divorced when I was about 8 weeks old. I went to live with my mother and her girlfriend. I did not figure out there was anything odd about the arrangement until I was 13 and my mother had been split up with her girlfriend for 2 years. One day, I realized, wait - they shared a bedroom. They shared a BED. Um, all their friends were women who lived in pairs and did things like playing softball and building fences. Oh geez. My mom was a lesbian!

I'd seen incidental contact, handholding, the occasional peck on the cheek, that sort of thing, but nothing overt. It wasn't until years later that I figured out that was why I could never have friends over to the house - this was back in the 1960s, and there were still laws against homosexuals in force.

Tell the kid. Chances are, she either already knows or suspects. She might react with, Eww, simply because that's the way the dominant culture has taught her she should react, so that no one suspects HER of being gay. She'll get over it. And in a few years, she'll be telling her story on Slog to support the premise that it did her no harm whatsoever to be exposed to Teh Gay.
@4 & 6

I know it's a little late, but I have to say it. I'm sorry for what ever happened in your family. I am truly sorry. I can only assume that your visceral reaction to a family sleepover is due to a traumatic experience in your or loved one's lives. But you have to move on. Everyone is NOT a predator.

My husband and I sleep in the same room as my daughter all the time. We snuggle and kiss. Not inappropriate! My sister and her boyfriend have slept in the same room as my daughter. Totally fine! The girl is eleven!

Yes, you have to keep an eye out for predators. My daughter was assaulted (NOT by anyone mentioned above), but you have to keep those irrational fears separated from the real ones. You can't spend your whole life suspecting everyone of being perverts. What kind of life is that? There are basic safety tips, but unless there are other signs, having a girls night sleepover with a GF of several years is NOT a warning sign!
There are real differences between males and females, but they are statistical, not absolute. Testosterone is an oxytocin antagonist, and it's oxytocin that generates the feelings of love and trust that makes warm relationships possible between human beings.

That's not to say at all that love and trust are not possible between any two human beings, but on average, it's a little more difficult for men, who tend to be a little more suspicious of strangers, than it is for women, who tend to be a little more gullible.

There are some specifically female activities, like breastfeeding, that generate oxytocin. Anyone who's done it can tell you how it makes them feel. But everyone has the ability to generate the same hormones. In that sense it's not female-specific.

While *most* abuse of children is perpetrated by males, a significant percentage is committed by females, with exact figures difficult to come by, ranging from 14% to 40% of offenses reported against boys down to 6% of offenses reported against girls.

On the other hand, such offenses against girls by women are sufficiently rare that there is a legitimate societal inclination to trust women in their relationships with girls rather more than one would trust a man in the same situation.

I agree that, given a sexual relationship between the two women involved in this "sleepover," it was inappropriate to share a bed, even if no untoward incidents occurred.

Children, especially girls, are very sensitive to relationships between people, and may read into real situations emotions and implications that the principals might blithely assume were invisible.
@4: Projecting much?

Does anyone here who actually knows who Bailo is know a) whether he's using hyperbole (like, always) and b) whether he has step-siblings we should warn about his alarming assumptions regarding how older step-siblings might view their younger step-siblings of the gender expression(s) to which they're attracted? 'Cause I think we might be able to apply the same logic concerning the weak-but-significant correlation of militant homophobia and closeted homosexuality to instant assumptions of incestuous paedophilia...

Srsly, this might be your creepiest post ever, and that includes all the rape-enabling statements about women and sexuality.
@4, why the emphasis on step? Are most people more likely to rape their girlfriend's underage step-siblings than blood siblings? Or is it just worse if they rape step-siblings?

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