I'm afraid I don't have the ability to understand how one can reject their child. But, their are people who can, I'm just not one of them. We only start children.

rewind:

there are parents...

Yes, yes, and yes. Not that he would have come, but not inviting my husband to my sister's wedding is something I've never forgiven my family for. It was done deliberately in the exact same way (my name only on the invitation), by all parties involved (sister and parents), & it was explicitly explained to me as such (Dad was the issue). At the time, I'd been with him for over 10 years, and my sister was marrying a guy she'd met less than two years prior (after breaking off a long-term relationship with a real piece of work who wouldn't marry her in case something better came along). It's the sort of insult that hangs over the rest of your life. Hashing it out now is a far better choice.

@1 Agree. You should have to pass a compassion test before you are allowed to reproduce (on Planet Canuck, anyway...)

Kim, usagi, Canuck, EXACTLY. We share DNA, but this is who I am so take me or leave me. This is not multiple choice and the lies hurt more than the absence will.

We got married in October and my one brother and his wife didnt come. She got on the phone with me to try to get me to help her be ok with her homophobic rationalization that "We'd love to come, it sounds like so much fun but our religion says we can't." I believe I said "Good. Please put mom back on the phone."

Recently in conversations with the Mom, she asked me to call and check in with my brother and sisterinlaw since it is the holiday season.

I told mom that "I cant because my religion says I cant." Mom said, "You have to forgive them for not coming to the wedding." I said "Nope, forgiving stupidity is against my religion too."

The other brother came to the wedding with his whole family and did a speech and toast. His family not only gets calls, but presents too, because rewarding loving family that gets your back is part of my religion.

@Womyn2me: First, congratulations on your recent wedding. May the two of you have many years of happiness and love together!

Secondly, your post brought tears to my eyes. Tears of happiness for your marriage, of course, and the acceptance you've found with your one brother and his loving family. But also tears of sadness and rage regarding your homophobic brother and his wife. I expect to be treated that way by strangers who don't know me, but NOT by family. They certainly don't deserve your love, and I support your decision not to extend it.

@6 You rock.

I agree with @3. Weddings are unfortunately a way to give insult as much as love. Those insults stay with us a long time.

On the other hand, I also agree on one point with the letter writer's mother. If one of my children adopts kids I won't consider them my grandchildren either. I won't hold it against them, and I would certainly never tell the children that (and I would only tell my own child under pretty specific questioning and only before the decision to adopt was made). None the less, while I might love and accept those kids, they would not be my grandchildren.

Note that this does not have anything to do with the sexuality of my kids. I am pretty sure my oldest son is straight and I think my youngest is as well. It has to do with my genetic relationship to my descendants.

I think adoptive parents are great, and I am glad they do what they do. Adoption is not for me though.

My kids can certainly organize their lives how ever they want. They don't have to have the same attitudes about adoption that I have. On the other hand, just as they are free to define anyone they want as their child, I am entitled to my own definition (within reason) of who is my grandchild.

Congratulations, Womyn2me.

I hope you never have to cross that bridge, Learned Hand. If your children wish to start families, I hope they are fertile. I'd hate to see them first have to grieve the loss of their fertility and also grieve at your lack of acceptance of their child should they have to build their family by adoption. Just as I'd hate to see that child hurt, as I've seen my children hurt and my cousin, as they over heard themselves being dismissed, because of their lack of biological ties (my children because their father was adopted and my cousin because he himself was adopted). No amount of "I love you" and explanation has healed those wounds. They feel rejected.

@9, when I told my mom I was attending a synagogue and considering a conversion to Judaism, her response was "I wanted you to get beliefs, but I didn't mean those". When I told her I definitely wanted to adopt kids some day (older ones), her only response was "thank god, I might get grandkids after all!" Thanks for making me appreciate my bigoted, suicidal mom a bit more.

@11, that's terrible, Kim. My dad was the black sheep of the family and so my sister and I have never had the same relationships with them as we have with our mom's family, but they've never rejected us. Our alienation is hurtful enough, let alone rejection.

Kim, thank you. I hope I don't have to deal with it either.

I would never discuss my feelings about the issue while the kids were in the same house as me, much less while they might hear. Whatever my feelings on the matter, I recognize how crucial it is to not let the kids know and how important it is to make them feel loved and accepted. After all, it is certainly not their fault, and they don't need to bear any burden because of me.

Leslie, you're welcome.

Leslie, I do have some actual advice for you. If you are serious about adopting older children, you should look into becoming a foster parent.

Fostering has lots of advantages for someone looking for older kids.

1) It's like parenting with training wheels. People who come home with newborns have plenty of time to work out how to be a parent before their child is able to argue back. Foster parents are provided with training, respite days (days where someone else takes the kids to allow you a break), and access to psychological counseling for the kids (most, but not all, older kids need that).

2) Lots of agencies have "foster to adopt" programs where a kid (or kids) is placed with you with the idea that if it works out, the parent will adopt. This means lots of professionals to work with who understand your situation.

3) You get to know a child before you agree to adopt him or her. Even in the foster to adopt programs, the kids are not told it may be permanent until the parents decide to adopt. If you decide not to adopt a particular child, you may get several chances before you find the one that you want to adopt. This is like a safety net for the emotions of the children and the adults. An adoptive placement that goes south is disasterous. A foster placement that ends is very troubling, but of a lesser magnitude.

4) Lots of financial support. The kids generally are covered by Medicaid so they get free health care. Foster parents are also paid a per diem per child. There are people who support themselves this way. Once you adopt, the per diem will stop, but sometimes the children get to keep their other benefits. Some of these benefits are very generous. My state provides free college tuition to any state college, university, or trade school to kids who turn 18 as foster children. Some adoptive kids may retain these and other benefits after adoption.

Good luck. As I said, I value adoptive parents. It is just not something for me.

So, Learned Hand, are your children's spouses not going to be a part of your family? They share no genetic history with you, so I guess not. What a charming definition of family, just in time for the holidays.

Learned Hand, foster parenting is intended to be transient. The purpose of placing a child in foster care is to return them to their family, not to have the foster parent adopt them.

Maybe there are a few rent-to-own kid programs, but fostering is NOT training for adoption. They are two completely separate beasts.

Wait, Dan was with his first boyfriend for more than a decade before the boyfriend's dad came around in 1982?!!

Dan got his first boyfriend during Nixon's first term?!

@ Learned Hand: I wrote the letter that Dan posted. I'd like to take a moment and address your comments on foster parenting. I'm not even gonna respond to your comment on adoption as Kim in Portland and Granny in Sweden already responded, and I don't think anyone is going to change your attitude.

1. Foster parenting is not "parenting with training wheels". Many agencies (like the one I'm working with) actually want foster to adopt parents. They won't even take people that want to only be foster parents. They want people that will take the child and adopt them if they can't go back home. That's an important point to recognize, your stepping up to adopt if this kid can't go home - It's not a test drive. Once adopted, these children have the same rights as any biological children, and you can't give them back. Their birth certificates are reprinted with you as the biological parent. The adopted parent, as far as the government and the agency is concerned, is the bio parent.

2. The degree of difficulty or trauma these children have suffered is the reason there is therapy offered to the children and training offered to the foster parents. Training is offered to potential and actual foster parents to help them respond to the children's needs and trauma. A foster parent is there to help this child learn to trust, provide a safe and loving home, and to step up and be this child's family.

3. Respite care is a reimbursement of up to $6/hr for babysitting. Hardly, a lot of assistance. I can't even get my niece to babysit for so little. Also, financial support is minimal. The foster parents' out of pocket expenses are much higher then $500 a month.

4. There is no safety net for your emotions. You are encouraged to bond with and love the child. They want you to attach to the child, since thats how children learn to attach to people and trust them. You as an adult are encouraged to take the risks, and to work with the child on any issues. They don't want these children bouncing around in the system, it makes positive outcomes later in life for these children extremely difficult.

From your post it seems as if you think foster parenting is a good way to get paid to learn how to parent. It's hardly that. You are opening your home and heart to each child. They may stay with you for the long term and be adopted or they may go back home. However, one thing is sure these agencies are looking for parents that will treat and feel for these children just as they would for their own biological children.

- Humorless. I did not define family at any point in what I said earlier. I defined who I would view as my grandchildren.

To take your question more seriously than it deserves, I will say both that I will welcome my kids spouses into my family and that there will still remain a difference in my affections between my children and their spouses. Do you object to that characterization? With whom will your affections lie if your kids get divorced? If you get divorced, with whom will you expect your parents affections to lie?

- Rach3l. I suspect that I know more about foster parenting than anyone in this forum. My wife has worked with foster kids for over ten years.

Neither of your characterizations are correct. See what sil wrote @20 about the emphasis that foster to adopt has these days. It is true that when reunification is possible, that is the goal. In those cases fostering is a short term prospect. Short term of course is relative since I have rarely seen that last for less than a year. In the vast majority of cases, children will never be reunified with their parents. They have been taken from their parents for reasons of neglect and abuse. The parental rights have been terminated.

I have say at this point that I am going to talk about what I know about foster parenting and the changes it is currently going through. The most important thing to know is that while there are movements that are nationwide, foster care is administered by the states. This means that generalizations are not always possible. It also most importantly means that each state is different. What is the norm in one state will not be in another. I live in one of the most populous states in the Union, but I am not from the North West. What I say will be true of my state, be true to a varying degree in yours depending on how well each state is following national trends and depending on the choices the state made in setting up their program.

Rent to own is a not a proper characterization of foster to adopt. There has been a big change in policy over the last several years in the foster care community. It was once the case that almost all foster parents were only foster parents and adoption was somewhat rare. This meant that foster parents would often foster many children over their years as foster parents. Both as a function of increased advocacy from former foster children, the changing way social science has viewed fostering, and for financial reasons, many states are now moving away from their traditional practices and pushing reunification and foster to adopt. This moves the kids more quickly off the state rolls as well as moving them into more stable long term environments.

Sil - I will address your points as you have numbered them. As I do so, recall that the person (Leslie) to whom I was responding said that she was interested in adopting an older child. I am trying to contrast adopting an older child through foster to adopt vs adopting an older child some other way.

1) a) The training wheels I am talking about are the myriad of services and professionals that are available to you. Do you not find them helpful? Bio parents have to do without those things or put them together on our own. I am not trying to disparage you or your position. Adopting an older child is very difficult. Most older kids have understandable psychological issues related to their birth families. This will be true however she finds an older child to adopt. What do you think will be easier: adopting an older child with the services the state provides, or without?

b) Yes, it true that foster to adopt is the wave of the future. I think this is unrelated to my training wheels characterization.

c) While it is true that the agencies want foster parents to adopt (and CPS does as well), it is also true that there is a safety net there in case the placement does not work out. It is not a choice between the foster placement and the birth family. If the foster placement does not work out, another one will be found for the kids. My point is that foster to adopt is not as final and permanent as straight up adoption. If you go straight to the adoption without first going through foster to adopt, there is no safety net. As you point out in the rest of this point, that is now your kid.

d) All you say about the implications once the adoption goes through are of course correct. I am merely pointing out the differences between the status while you are foster to adopt and while you are the adoptive parent.

2) Yes, this is all true. I am not saying you don't deserve it or that the kids don't need it. What I am saying is that just about any older kid who is going to be adopted is going to need those same services and it is better to have them organized and provided by the state than try to blunder through on your own.

3) This is an area where state law will control. My state has very successful respite programs. I am sorry yours does not. It sounds as if your state is also not very generous with per diem. That is not the case in my state. My wife has worked with many, many professional foster parents over the years. These have mainly been single women who have fostered as their sole means of income, or married couples where the man worked out of the home and the wife stayed with the children. I know at least one older couple though where neither adult worked outside the home. It is important to note that the professional foster parents would have large numbers of children in their homes. Usually this means four or more children. One single woman my wife worked with (and who came to our wedding) had a capacity of eight children in the house but generally would have six at a time.

4. Yes, this is exactly true.

Conclusion - it is important to remember the context in which I gave this advice. It was to a woman who already said she wanted to adopt an older child. I do indeed think that fostering is a good way to be paid to learn how to parent an older child, for someone already determined to adopt an older child. I would not urge fostering on someone who was simply planning their own bio family or who was going to adopt an infant or very young child. I of course agree with all you say about the emotional impact of caring for a child and what the foster agencies are looking for. I am not trying to encourage dilettantes to foster, nor would I urge someone not looking for an older child to foster. I still believe though that if you are going to adopt an older child, it is far better to have the resources of the state available to you than to plunge in without them.

Sil - I responded to your post at length in #21. I wanted to add a couple more things.

I am sorry your mom won't accept you and your wife. I am glad you are able to have a happy family with your wife.

I didn't understand from your original letter that you were a foster parent. Reading your original letter, I assumed that your wife had gotten pregnant with a sperm donor. I see now that what you wrote applies to either situation.

My wife's former boss was married (not legally of course, I am sorry about that as well) to another woman. The boss used a sperm donor to conceive a child. They recently broke up after being together a pretty long time, their daughter was at least eight at the time. I think the other mom adopted the child, but if she didn't, her rights are going to be seriously affected by the split. I assume since you are an adoptive parent you are going to make sure that both you and your wife adopt the kid(s). I think these kinds of problems come up more often when one mother has a bio child rather than in cases of adoption. In any case, I hope you are being sensitive to these issues.

Again, I am sorry about your relationship with your mom. I hope you are happy with your current family.

Speaking as a parent - I remember when my daughter, in high school, came to me and said "mom, somebody asked me to start going out, and I said yes. She's a girl.".

There was a pang, but it was the sort of pang you'd get when your child said they were taking up skydiving, an "Oh, that might be dangerous" pang. Her life will be more difficult, some people will be mean to her, and I don't like that. But that negativity is aimed at a world that won't let her be who she is, not at her.

I can't even really imagine what would shake my love for my kids, but if there were such a thing, it would have to be based in their own evil actions - if they were knowingly killing other people for fun, say. I cannot comprehend a parent who rejects a child for being gay. It'd be like rejecting them for not eating breakfast, or for being good at math, or a night owl, or green eyed.....

I'd be careful what you say to your children about their children, LearnedHand, you know your kids will be picking your nursing home one day. Personally, if my parents were to be frugal with their emotions, it would probably make me be frugal with hospice care.

Learned Hand makes me grateful for my own mother, who has accepted adopted grandkids and step grandchildren unequivocally, without stopping to parse the differences between them and "genetically-produced" grandchildren.

Oh, and she never felt the need to bore everybody shitless with her rambling, unconvincing rationalizations, either.

@15 "Parents that rejects there kids over something so insignificant as being gay, are parents that DIDN'T love there children to begin with."

I couldn't agree more. (I am the boyfriend of a BotB - we went his sister's wedding 5 years ago). My bf's mother is more in love with her self and her own self-righteous piety than any human being. She didn't parent, she manipulated. She was and is less a living family member or friend than she is a walking trajedy that is "managed" by her kids (her daughter mostly).

And I have to agree with Sil that it is a hard road. It took a lot of work over the years just to help my bf work through all the emotional trauma, positioning, and attempts to redeem himself somehow to his mother. Being from supportive parents, I can't even imagine how he was feeling through the whole process - learning that his mother doesn't really love him...

lecaro - I was boring and rambling about foster children, not step children. Good luck with reading comprehension in the future.

we forget that our adopted chinese cousin is adopted. My little brother and she used to have a crush on each other as little kids. My sister and I were like "OMG, but they're cousins!!! Oh wait, it's okay, they're second cousins...oh yeah, and she's adopted!!!!"

My dad pretty viciously insulted not only my same-sex wedding plans, but also (especially) my relationship with my adoptive sons. It ended up being the last straw. I snipped the cord and cut off our relationship. Unfortunately, he died several months later and I felt torn for a short while at the time we lost over his inability to be respectful about my family. But truthfully, I'm at peace with that decision.

What the hell is it with everyone bashing Learned Hand for what he said about adopted grandchildren??? It's like nobody listened to what the guy actually said! He said that he is going to love them, accept them, have a relationship with them, etc. etc. exactly as if he did consider them his own grandchildren. So what's the problem? These things are the ones that actually matter -- not the semantical distinctions he makes in his own head. How you treat people is important, not how you label them in your own mind...

Thank you Ola. I am glad someone saw the rest of what I wrote. :)

Learned Hand, you make me feel ill. Family is family, if your kids adopt kids, they ARE your grandchildren. You "might" love and accept those kids? You MIGHT? OMG. We are all human beings. We all descended from the same proto-humans. We are all related to one another, if you go back far enough. Your insistence on making a distinction is asisine.