Adam_West, I agree wholeheartedly. Hubby has 3 rules: wrap it up, no psycho bitches, and no giving of OUR money!!! Lol!! ;) We also play together. So yes, I think I am GGG. :)

secretagent: I am not really trying to justify so much as I am thinking this is kinda a philosophical exercise, correct? Perhaps an exchange of ideas. And yeah you can talk talk talk, but can you REALLY talk your way into sexual attraction? Ho boy, not the smoking hot kind I have with my secret dude...I am telling you, even after 8 years, he about sets my panties on fire just hearing his voice on the phone, I am a cat in *heat*!!! Yeah, can't "communicate" your way into that shit, its just there or its not. Sad to say, never had that with hubby. Again, perhaps should not have married him, but I was young and dumb, but we have actually grown closer as they years have passed and with an active effort and yes "communication". I think as the mere children we were when we got married, we were incompatible, and afraid of being alone, and clung to each other. I am glad we have grown closer through our children instead of the other way- it could have been disastrous. I am just trying to prove not all cheaters are, shall we say "pieces of shit". We are just flawed people, just like everyone else. Perhaps just with different flaws.

Strictly monogamous, thanks for understanding! Especially since I would think its probably not your lifestyle considering your handle ;). You are truly a breath of fresh air!

Ugh. I hate it when someone says something sweeping like this:

"I'm guessing that all relationships have a level of "lies" or "omissions"."

You guess wrong. *My* marriage contains no secrets or omissions. We each share details about our inner thoughts that many or even most couples would never dare, and that's just before breakfast! Neither of us is afraid to tell the other when we think someone is hot. 99% of the time nothing comes of it, but sometimes it does, and a threesome or foursome ensues.

And that's just the cool, interesting details about sex, not necessarily the mundane crap of our workaday lives.

badgirl- very funny response, but I think you misunderstood secretagent. I think their point was that you could communicate your way into an open marriage, which you are already in. If you let him sleep with other people he must be willing to do the same, why not just make it official? Stop the lies? I am sure, on some level, he already realises

Adam_west...I have made him the offer, he has flat out refused (cuz he knows it means turning me loose, lol!!). Oh well, he knows its on the table, should he choose to pursue. Our official "rules": we may play together, but I am not technically allowed to stay without him. So yeah, I am breaking the rules. I did ask though. Repeatedly. And got turned down. I am *definitely NOT* one of those people who gets off on the whole intrigue aspects of it, but I do know they are out there. Ugh, that stuff gives me an ulcer!!!

He is being unreasonable, you more then qualify within the above criteria. You are not a CPOS, you should not feel guilty.

I don't think it's unreasonable for someone who got married and promised/was promised monogamy to want to keep that deal. I understand wanting to screw someone more than your partner, but I also understand the partner wanting what he'd been promised. That's kinda why marriage is a big deal - you promise all kinds of shit and then people wanna hold you to it.

That *was* what I was trying to get at Adam_west- communicating into an open relationship, or agreeing to a Don't Ask Don't Tell policy. It sounds like you offered him freedom to fuck around, badgirl, and you would too, but he didn't go for it, and that you negotiated something else. That's not the same as saying you no longer want monogamy or only-together play time, and going from there. You have a right to be happy, but he has a right to the truth. I just know I'd feel like shit if my partner *needed* something and didn't give me the clear & present opportunity to agree to it. Like, if you need something bad enough to cheat and/or leave me, tell me, and I should give it a 2nd, 3rd and 4th look if I want to keep you.

I guess I just see a lot of people tentatively maybe kinda bring it up and then back-pedal furiously when the going isn't as easy as they like. I want us all trained to talk straight about our needs and not just make half-hearted attempts and screw merrily away into CPOS-land. I am a firm believer and sometimes participant in open, honest and non-monogamous relationships. I see it work with bunches of my friends, who are also open and honest. Yeah, it doesn't all go perfectly, and sometimes it's a bunch of inconvenient hand-holding and negotiation. But that's what happens when you marry someone - you pledge to hold their hand and negotiate. For a slutty, kinky, homo-loving, sex worker advocate I'm kind of a traditionalist!

It always amazes me the extent to which people have no problem imposing their morals on others. You don't want to sleep with a married guy? Don't. You don't want the guy you've extracted a monogamous commitment from to sleep with someone else? Fair enough.

But to call someone a piece of shit because they don't subscribe to your moral code, or because - let's face it - the realities of life often force us to reevaluate our moral codes, is uncalled for.

There are plenty of people who would say being gay is wrong. How many non-troll Savage Love readers want to jump on the bandwagon? Those people have no trouble saying that because THEY think that homosexuality is wrong that NOBODY should practice homosexuality. Why is this any different? I think the "extra-marital relationships are wrong" kood-aid came from the same batch as the "homosexual relationships are wrong" kool-aid in that it says far more about those doing the judging than those being judged.

Maybe those of you who are in supposedly committed relationships (and I use the word "supposedly" not to deny the possibility of monogamy but to suggest it's not something anyone can know with absolute certainty) lash out others because you feel threatened. If someone else would mess around on the side, maybe your partner would, too. Don't hate those of us in relationships with married men because we make you realize that things you like to take for granted can't be taken for granted.

Badgirl: kisses!

badgirl, i think your husband has the right to decide whether he wants to stay in the relationship or not. I understand that you have your needs and the right to fulfill them but if one of his needs is monogamy-- why does he not have the right to decide whether he wants to end the relationship?

fallen angel @108: This is Dan Savage's space, and he's the one who was saying that (with a few exceptions) cheating is generally a sign of disrespect for your partner, and the community should discourage it. (ie, when you find out someone has been cheating, it means he or she feels it's okay to break big promises, and he or she may treat you that way too.)

You want to say that cheating is fine and dandy, and just as morally upright as not cheating -- okay, but you'll get some pushback probably everywhere except on your own listserv set up for people in the same boat.

Fallen Angel - if you're seriously equating someone's right to exercise their innate sexuality, to be who they were born to be, to have relationships, date and fall in love with people who promise one thing and then do another and don't have the courage to admit it, you're clown shoes. Disgusted.

@secretagent: 107- you are right, well played.
111- well put

59: The odd thing is that I have way more opportunity to have outside sex than he does.

Erica, why do you find that odd?

@111: I'm not. What I am saying is that just as some people - Dan included - argue that some people are wired for homosexuality, some people - again, Dan included - argue that some people are not wired for monogamy. Is there any evidence to suggest that the hardwiring for homosexuality is somehow stronger than the hardwiring for non-monogamy? And is there a reason we tend to see genetic influences as more immutable than cultural ones? Cultural influences can be every bit as powerful, or more so.

It's also worth noting that the Nazis did not see genetic causes as an argument in favor of homosexuality. They saw it as justification for killing them since they were "genetically defective." I think it's important not to assume that "genetically determined" necessarily means "good." We're at a cultural moment during which we see it that way. That was not the case in Nazi Germany.

I'm also saying that I think that as someone who is not in a committed relationship, it is not my responsibility to police other people's commitments. How many people here think sex outside of a committed relationship is acceptable? I'm guessing most of you. Here's the deal: if you hook up with someone you don't know well, you don't ever know for a fact what their relationship status is. Ironically, someone being honest about the nature of their other relationship can in some cases indicate greater honesty than someone who says they are single but is lying.

Am I saying it's ideal? No. But I think assigning permanent-sounding labels (e.g., "cheater," "piece of shit") on the basis of some of the choices a person has made is misguided. I would think people used to being labeled (anybody whose sexuality deviates from vanilla heterosexual preferences) would be sympathetic to that.

@EricaP: Thank you for your respectful response. I recognize that I'm arguing for something that most people have trouble with. I do, too; I wrestle with the issue constantly. I respect your right to your views on the matter, and I think your willingness to do the same for me even though we disagree is admirable. So really, thank you. I'm far more accustomed to responses like secretagent's.

In the listserv you referenced, we discuss the ethics of our behaviors frequently. None of us are bad people; all of us are in less than ideal situations. The listserv has been invaluable for my own emotional well-being precisely because it is a space where I am free from judgment. I don't want to speak for the other members of the group, but I believe they find the space valuable (at least in part) for similar reasons. I'm more than aware of the stigma associated with my choices; being reminded of that isn't helpful to me. The statistics on the emotional well-being and suicide rates of gays and lesbians indicate that stigma, in and of itself, can have damaging effects. The effects used to be mistaken for "evidence" of sickness, thus justifying the inclusion of homosexuality in the DSM until the 1970s. Again, not equating the two; I'm just saying that judgment (especially when backed by social institutions) can take its toll.

I would like to challenge a part of what you said, though. I think that assuming a fundamentally flawed character on the basis of one - or a few - choices, is misguided. I think assuming that because he's doing something that would hurt his wife that he would do something to hurt me is not necessarily warranted. Extraordinary circumstances can drive most to extraordinary actions. This was illustrated perhaps most starkly in some of the classic social psychological experiments (e.g. Asch, Milgram, Zimbardo (the man behind the Stanford Prison Experiment)). I don't think anyone is all good or all bad. I think that the right situation can drive most of us to act in ways that we wouldn't have thought we would.

Like badgirl, I am married and in a long-distance relationship with a married man. One that involves more conversation than actual sex. I find him more honest about his relationship than some of the single men who date my friends. There is something that each of our marriages lacks, and while it is easy to say 'Divorce', we decided to put our families' interests ahead of our own happiness. Yes, we do take our happiness when and where we can get it. Which is perhaps meeting thrice a year. On a day-to-day basis, we make do with emails; banal ones, about our lives and our children, and sometimes even about our spouses - regardless of what you people think, we are not belittling them to each other. I have no intention of breaking up his family.

There are some people who are willing to understand that we are not all home-wreckers; sometimes, that is the way the chips fall. I, for one, certainly didn't set out to have an extra-marital affair. What started as a friendship deepened into a relationship where we began to care for each other, but are bound to the relationships we already have. C'est la vie.

So, badgirl, another hand raised to you.

Man, what a pair of assholes. Cheating on your unsuspecting wife when she's carrying your child? Sleeping with a guy when you know his wife is pregnant?

Doesn't get much lower than that.

@56: WTF are you talking about? I wasn't making any assumptions about seandr's relationship (assuming he even has one), I was translating his disingenuous bullshit into plain English.

@114: Stuff your self-righteousness. Dishonesty is bullshit. Cowardice is bullshit. You're damn right I'm going to be judgmental of someone who is a lying coward, because I don't want them anywhere near me. It's called self-preservation, and it's smart.

@119: Views like yours were precisely what my responses sought to challenge. Did you even read them, or do you just prefer ad hominem attacks? If you did, perhaps you can explain to me how my actions are cowardly?

The world isn't as a black and white as you seem to think it is. You may find it easier to sort things into "good" and "bad," but it's rather naive for you to think this possible.

Erica P @92 thanks for your suggestions -- I think they are good ones. It's hard, though... where sex is concerned, I'm mostly a suggester... if my suggestions are met with disinterest, then unless I am very very horny, I feel bad or lose interest myself. I wish my guy would push my boundaries, but he's so vanilla (and FYI, I've suggested the porn thing and the strip club thing, but they don't really excite him, so then I'm not excited...)

@113, Roma, the "odd thing" was that he was the one pushing for outside sex, and I was the one getting it. I wasn't sure I wanted it, even as I was having it. He hadn't set out to get me laid, but in the end, I think he enjoys me getting outside sex more than I do, and perhaps more than he enjoys his own outside sex. That is, for him, me having sex with another man is fun to think about and fun to hear about... but for the person having the outside sex (usually me), there's the reality that the sex is sometimes fun and sometimes not so fun.

@116, fallen angel, I don't think you or badgirl or geminigirl are bad people. You're really just bearing the brunt of my frustration that so many of the guys who approach me for sex are cheating. (I also get annoyed that so many cute guys in the dating pool have herpes, but at least I don't take that out on you :-)

Badgirl’s situation seems much more complex than a lot of people seem to allow. Ideas like “you should be able to communicate with him and explain what you need to be happy, and what compromises you can make to both get what you need” to me, are so simplistic. I don’t know if you guys just know very different kinds of people than I do, but for those of us that aren’t lucky enough to be part of some sex-positive/sexually deviant community – and I live in a big city with a liberal, well-educated population – open relationships are not a realistic possibility. Suggesting one to my partner would hurt him so much that it would take our relationship a very long time to recover. Suggesting one to my ex-husband would have made him angry and suspicious of my fidelity. He would not have seen a conversation like that as an indication that I am open and honest with him, but as an indication that I want to cheat.
Also, I think it’s funny the way many people reference Dan as though he’s a god… I’m a huge fan of his, and love his sex-positivity, but I have my own opinions on things and don’t agree with 100% of his ideas. Just because he says something doesn’t mean it’s the gospel truth!
Bad girl, you seem to doing the best you can in your situation, and I wish you the best with everything.
Fallen angel, you make so many really good points – I agree with you. I am curious about the listserv Erica P is referring to… I couldn’t find any details here…

Azul @121, what you describe sounds like an imbalance in sex drive. That comes up in SL comments a lot: the person with the higher sex drive gets really tired of always being the one to initiate, and the one with the lower sex drive feels like, well, if you ever gave me a break (for a week or two), you would find that I could initiate sex too. We've had some commentators move from being the higher sexed person in one relationship, to the lower sexed person in their next relationship (or vice versa), and it's interesting to hear how it's all really relative to the person you're with.

And @124, I think ideally you lay the groundwork with years of talking openly about, oh, these interesting sex columns you've been reading, and don't these bloggers have some interesting ideas about how people can arrange their sex lives. But if you're not a match sexually, as badgirl says, that's hard to fix with communication. In my case, getting over my desire for monogamy was only possible because we are so good a match in every other way. And because he persuaded me that there was nothing wrong with me, or our sex life; he just wanted some "strange."

hmm, interesting... thanks for sharing, Erica P. I wonder if some day my partner will change...

@Fallen Angel- No one is arguing that being non-mongamous is bad.
Every characteristic is a complex interaction between environment and genes, this whole nature/nurture (gene/culture) debate is so 1960s.

What made made people angry about you earlier comment (and I have read your subsequent ones), is that you compare being gay and cheating. While I agree that being homosexual and being non-monogamous are in some way comparable, just like if you are gay you shouldn't enter into a straight relationship, if you are non-monogamous you should not enter into a monogamous relationship.
No amount of genetic or cultural influences gives us an excuse to lie and cheat, a morale code set out for all of us at a very young age. By saying being gay and cheating are the same, people would take that to mean you have quite a low opinion of gay people...

We all judge people by our own moral code, using the argument that we shouldn't force our own morals on others makes little sense. Some people are phsyco and have no morales (not saying you are!) that does not justify their actions. There is no other way to determine if something is right or wrong, other then our own opinion, and the morale code society dictates. I agree that society is often wrong, and this is why we must think for ourselves.

That said, I don't think things are so simple as you are a POS or not. Not all cheaters are equally bad. For example, I dont think Badgirl is a POS, she seems like a caring and considerate person, who channels her sexual satisfaction back into her family and takes every step to make sure everyone in her life is happy and satisfied.
That said, I think sercretagent is right- making sure that the other person is aware of how much something matters to you. But at the end of the day, everyone is happy and I dont think she should have to sit around feeling guilty because I, or anyone else, says she is wrong. She has the right to enjoy life. Nothing is black or white.

Nothing is black and white, don't judge others, don't label - these are platitudes. What Adam_west said - we all judge. It's my right to disagree with behaviors I think are damaging and self-serving. It's not my right to try and force you to agree. Or to make you fall in line with my ethics. I would never, ever, try to legislate these views, or to punish you for yours. There's a huge difference, and you have to know that. Judgment is society's way of self-preservation - if we did not frown upon behaviors that upset the stability of the group, we never would have gotten so far as a species. All animals & societies shun or discourage anti-social behaviors - lying, stealing, and yes, cheating is most definitely lying, and sleeping with someone else's spouse is definitely a form of stealing.

Hardwired for monogamy - maybe not. But again, don't agree to monogamy if you don't believe in it. Nazi bullshit is just that - bullshit that serves as a reminder of crazy eugenic crap that got way out of control. I don't support someone who is gay getting married to a straight person and lying about it, just as I don't support someone who is non-monogamous lying in their relationships.

I grew up in Orange County - no, sex-positive, open relationships were not the norm, and many people would probably think I'm a freak for suggesting it. But their responses are not up to me, nor are they my concern. My concern is finding a person who is compatible with me, who can communicate openly, and who is willing to fulfill my needs. That's my responsibility as a person who wants to be happy - FINDING the person that fits my needs - not creating them, not settling and then lying, but finding the right person, the first time, before I get all husband kids home and have to start putting others ahead of myself. Yeah, that's right, other people's needs *ahead* of my own. Because that's what you promise to do. And if I choose wrong, that's also on me. Then I make the decisions to fix it, while respecting other people who are different from me. See the common thread here? Personal responsibility. Respect for other people's needs, even if they're different from my own.

In fact, because of this discussion, I brought up non-monogamy with my boyfriend. He is very monogamous and very conservative. I am capable and willing to be monogamous with him, and was upfront about my beliefs when we started dating. I was a little nervous bringing it up - maybe he'd think I'm cheating, maybe he'd tell me something I don't want to hear. Maybe he does want someone else. But I put on my big-girl panties and brought it up. Because I want him to know he can always talk to me about his needs, even if it might hurt my feelings. Because I love him and I want him to be happy, and I acknowledge that people's needs change over time, and he might not always want just me, or even me at all.

If you hook up with someone, yes, you don't always know that they're telling the truth. But just like any relationship, over time you can figure it out. And when you figure out they're lying, they get the boot. I don't think you need to police other people's commitments so much as know that you can't possibly know her side of the story, and you are not in any position to make the judgment that he's right and she's wrong, and thus your affair is justified. I fully support your right to make your own decisions. What I disagree with is inadequate or erroneous attempts at justification, and your complaints about being judged and subject to stigma. Yeah, you screw someone else's husband, of course you are subject to judgment and stigma. Marriage still means something to some people. Knowingly assisting someone in their dishonesty and infidelity does put some of the blame on your shoulders. Yeah, not all marriages are cakewalks, but you have a duty to try try try try try, and, I think, acknowledge to the other person when your trying has ended and that you are now going to seek out others. I bet lots of people wouldn't leave.

The bottom line is that we are all free to make whatever decisions we like. We don't have the right to approval for those decisions, and you live with it. There's lots of stuff I've done that I've been judged for, but I'm a big girl and I take it. And advocate for change, and educate people about the things I think are important, like fair treatment of sex workers, kink, non-monogamy, reproductive rights, etc.

Wow, a LOT to digest! I need to go back and read these responses more slowly to digest them.

Well, thanks for those of you reading with an open mind, and there seem to be some of you! Azul, you especially, if you are interested in said listserv, you can contact me and introduce yourself :). We keep the group closed for obvious reasons, but I am the moderator, and I can invite people and some fresh blood would be welcome. For anyone else out there that might be lurking and involved and interested: We are NOT all about "Yay, yay, I am cheating, its awesome!", its more like a place where we can come talk about the VAST emotional and yes, moral implications involved. A little support board if your will, since its definitely something I can NOT chat about with the other wives in my neighborhood over coffee at the local Starbucks, ahaha. Trust me, we ALL pay the price for what we do, its an emotional hurricane. Not nearly the quick piece of ass I intended when I started up, but just what it evolved into.

badgirlboredathome@gmail.com (Lol, I know, horrible. But I figured I could remember it. ;) )

secretagent, I hope your discussion with your bf went well. And I agree with your beginning argument that judging others is natural... and I also think you're right to acknowledge that relationships are complicated and someone outside of it (aka, the other woman) can't judge one person to be right (her lover) and the other (his wife) to be wrong, because there is just too much to know. But I wish you would apply the same concept - not possibly being able to know the full story makes it unfair to judge – to badgirl and seandr's stories.
And I have to disagree with you that complete and utter honesty is the best thing for all relationships, in all stages... see comment 31, check out Prudie's recent column (link @60), etc. And Prudie is kind of a traditionalist the way you seem to be (still supports gay rights, etc)... if you're not familiar with her column, maybe you'd like it (I like it, and I'm not so traditional).
If my (theoretical) husband of 20 years and father of my children felt about me the way Seandr feels about his wife, I would not want to know that - especially if it were something that could not be fixed. Divorcing someone that you love and share a life and family with can be extremely painful. I suffered from PTSD after a difficult divorce from a man that I loved very, very much (and the divorce was my decision/no cheating involved - also a very complex situation). I pray to god that I never have to go through something like that again. Assuming my partner loves me and respects me, I would rather have him cheat on me discreetly than leave me. Unfortunately no one is perfect and we all have to settle for partners that don't meet 100% of our needs 100% of the time, just as they settle have to settle for us.

@131, you'd rather he cheated than left, but would you rather he cheated or told you?

Do you think there are a lot of women who think, "I'd rather he cheated than told me what he was doing, because then I'd have to leave him"? If so, maybe those women should tell their husbands... that could be a grown-up way to renegotiate the situation. ("Don't ever tell me if you need outside sex. I don't want to know." To which he could reply, reassuringly if not truthfully, "no, no, I'll never need anyone but you...")

You know, Erica, that's a hard question... I think it would depend on the details of the theoretical situation... I'd imagine that if he's wanting to have sex with me, but I'm saying "no, not interested," I'd like him to ask permission to go outside the relationship for sex, and I'd be happy to grant the permission. If for whatever reason he is no longer attracted to me (but still loves me - we are family - and he respects me, etc), but he would prefer sex with someone else than to me... I'm not sure I'd want to know that...

Badgirl as I stated above, those are my personal reasons for not having an affair even though my job has provided me with able opportunity to, over the last 25 years, if I was so inclined. Those reasons are based on hard won knowledge through personal, though, involuntary, experience and witnessing the oft times tragic consequences to friends, relatives, and acquaintances. I know that even similar situations are unique and that what I have experienced and witnessed are not typical. If they were I think there would be far less cheating (I only use that word because an affair can be between two otherwise unattached individuals), but maybe not given the common mindset that bad things can’t happen to me. A mindset that is particularly prevalent in younger people. Some of those consequences/reactions have been truly horrific/extreme and I don’t mean a bitter divorce or custody dispute. I can empathize with you about the emotional toll on you and what it has likely cost you. Personally, no affair regardless how great the sex may be is worth my soul. I know myself well enough to fully grasp what cheating would cost me emotionally and I am not willing to pay that price. Once again, this applies solely to me and my circumstances. As you pointed out I don’t know you or your situation. I am only willing to judge myself and those who have harmed me and my children. I have neither the right nor the wisdom to judge others, which is one of the reasons I stopped participating in any form of organized religion when I turned 16.

P.S. I would think long and hard about putting your employment at risk in this economy. I’ve seen what you are doing used as grounds for summary termination, something you and your lover may be willing to risk. What you describe would be nightmarish for me with two families potentially at risk.
As to tone, think of it as a sadder but wiser man try to pass on his experiences. Sadly most people only really learn by experience. I wish you well and hope you are more fortunate than I have been. Sometimes ignorance truly is bliss (I know a hackneyed cliché).

Azul - The difference between me judging a stranger's experience online, which I definitely can't see into enough to know for sure, and the other woman/man in an affair is that there is no consequence to mistaken judgment here. My idea that someone's actions are wrong - and I'm really not coming down on individuals, just ideas for the purpose of intelligent debate - will not affect their lives. Yes, they may have hurt feelings if they're sensitive, but in the end, I'm a stranger on the internet. Not a woman in bed with their husband.

I agree that complete honesty isn't always the best cause. But we're not talking about a mistake that happens one time. We're talking about an affair. We're talking about ongoing deception, breaking vows, stuff with bigger implications than a one-time screw up. And you may feel like you'd rather a discreet affair but you can't speak for others. And I can't speak for others. I CAN speak for my views on ethics, fairness, and accountability.

My discussion went wonderfully. And I think I'd rather him get a gf than leave me. But I'd rather know, and that's what I told him. People change, needs change, and I'd rather hear a hard truth than a pretty lie.

Something I failed to mention is that I think a person also has a responsibility to provide a safe space for dialogue in a relationship. If you blow up, cry, or otherwise respond immaturely every time you hear something you don't like, don't be surprised if you soon get lies instead. We're not all masochists, and few people will stick to the hard line of the truth if everything turns into a blow-out. If you are inflexible and uncommunicative, you'll reap what you sow. Bottom line: cheat if you want to, but take responsibility for your choices and own those decisions. Don't excuse them cause that helps you sleep. It's not so bad to be a decent person who does bad things. It's bad to be a decent person who lies to themselves about it.

@135 "a person also has a responsibility to provide a safe space for dialogue in a relationship. If you blow up, cry, or otherwise respond immaturely every time you hear something you don't like, don't be surprised if you soon get lies instead."

Yes!!

skeptic and a cynic: This is going to sound frightfully awful (well, if what else I haven't said isn't shocking enough, lol!), but my lover right now is helping a friend through a divorce because of....*drumroll please*......infidelity. He tells me all about it (well, I am definitely a friend in addition to a lover) and the true irony is that you should HEAR him go off on what a homewrecking whore his friends' wife is! I say...."uhhh, pot? This is the kettle"...and then he tells me the way our adulterous affair is *different*, lol! I think at times, he has grown so accustomed to me in his life, he forgets I am not supposed to be a part of it.

So yes, I will agree with whomever said there is a lot of rationalization that goes into it. I really think for the most past, the people involved are mostly decent; I mean, many people are unfaithful at some point in thier marriages. But to tell the truth, I am a million, trillion ties more guilty about the emotional side of our relationship that has become established, then some stupid sexual act. That is far worse a betrayal in my eyes then just gettin' nakkid and bumpin' uglies. The only defense I have for that is that I never meant for it to appen, and I know its wrong. But I can't imagine giving him up at this point.

So in a way, I think that makes me even worse then scuzzo prof up there. I could handle if hubby went and fucked some chick....what secrent agent said, I think I will go with option #1...decent person who does bad things. Hence the nick! But piece of shit? Really? I would put "intent to harm" behind those words. I truly want to harm no one, even though I realize my actions are immoral.

@133: "I'd imagine that if he's wanting to have sex with me, but I'm saying "no, not interested," I'd like him to ask permission to go outside the relationship for sex, and I'd be happy to grant the permission."

Seems to me if he's wanting sex with you and you are saying "no, not interested" then you have forfeited any say in what he does after that. If you aren't interested, then you aren't interested.

Yeah, avast, if she's your hooker. If she's your wife, she deserves a conversation.

@133, 138, 139 - for most of these men, they are still having (unprotected) sex with their wives, just not as often as they'd like... Often the sex with their wives is fine, but they still want something different for a change.

@135 RE Judgment: You’re right, the consequences of judging online doesn’t (or shouldn’t) cause anyone serious pain… but (and I don’t want to sound cheesy here) once you judge a situation, you’ve finished learning from it. I think sometimes listening and reflecting without judging can be good for us (sometimes)

RE Honesty: Fair enough – you’re right, the situations are different. My question: say you’re 50, you’ve been with the same man for 25 years… you love each other but aren’t having sex (say you just never feel in the mood anymore, and he’s not pursuing you either). And your man has lost any attraction to you. It’s not that you’ve neglected yourself, or have treated him abusively… maybe it’s just that he knows you so well, he feels like your brother, or maybe it’s that he’s not attracted to your aging body. Whatever the case, when he asks you if he can date someone else, would you want him to be honest and say it’s b/c he’s not attracted to you anymore? Or would you want him to offer an excuse to save your feelings? I think for a lot of women, if they know their husbands are no longer attracted to them, any chance at fixing their sex life is gone.

RE Communication: I completely agree – well said.

@140: you’re right, I was simplifying the situation so it would be easier for me to answer your question. But I guess if we’re having sex, but not enough, and my husband wanted a change, yeah, I’d want to know. But I am pretty open-minded about relationships. For so many people – certainly my ex-husband, and probably my current partner too, it’s 100% faithfulness or a break up – some sex on the side with open communication is NOT an option. If I’d needed to get some on the side while with my ex, my choices would have been 1) do it on the DL, or 2) break up. He was a jealous guy (not in a mean way – it was kind of sweet – but he would NEVER have agreed to share me). And honestly, I think there are more guys like him than ones that would agree to share their wives…

@141, there's no bright line between the guys who are jealous and the guys who can share their wives. It's more of a spectrum:
At one end, you have the total jealous freak who will not "let" his wife have a drink with a male colleague, and he'll get mad if he sees her looking at an attractive guy, let alone fantasizing about one.
At the other end, there are guys who have hot-wife fantasies (I wish my wife would sleep with other men and come tell me about it!)
In between, there's the guy who likes hearing the fantasies but isn't ready for it to be real, the guy who doesn't mind if his wife gets backrubs from other guys at a SciFi convention, the guy who likes seeing his wife get a lapdance from a woman at a strip club, the guy who might be willing to have an MFF, or even an MMF... Not only is there a spectrum, but people can move one way or the other on the spectrum over time...

Same goes for women, of course - didn't mean to be so gendered in my answer.

That makes sense.

@141. Judgment - I disagree. I'm not one of those people who dig in and can't listen once I've made up my mind. I continue to use my brain after I make decisions, and I'm wrong a lot, just like everyone else. I don't consider it bad to be wrong sometimes, just bad not to be willing to see it. I'm aware people are different, and what's acceptable to you may not be acceptable to me. But let's restate: I think people deserve a chance to make important decisions about their relationships, and that partners owe each other communication about these things - especially sex.

Honesty - there's a difference between telling me the truth and gratuitous honesty. Did I ask if he wasn't attracted to me anymore? Tell me. If I didn't, don't - he's not breaking any promises not to tell me something like that. I would expect him to tell me if I'm gaining weight and it turns him off, though I do think it's my responsibility to stay attractive and interesting to him, so I hope he never has to tell me that. But I think sex is an essential component to a relationship - most relationships, and definitely mine - so if I stop wanting to have sex with him, that's a problem. If I've stopped wanting to have sex at all, that's also a problem. Lack of libido is not normal. Maintaining the sexual part of your relationship is just as important as maintaining the emotional part.

But if my partner ever approached me about getting a girlfriend, and we were still getting the majority of our needs met from each other, I'd likely agree. If losing him would be worse than sharing him, then I'd share. If I didn't feel that way, I likely would have left earlier anyway. In my case, I always keep an eye on his level of desire for me, I always make efforts to keep things exciting, and if I noticed a decline, I'd likely have addressed it myself. I'm aware that screwing the same person for decades, or even just years can get boring. Experiments, trips, even a third are all reasonable options to spice things up.

But it's also very possible to be excited to screw your spouse of decades too. I think finding sexual compatibility is just as important as finding someone who is compatible in other ways. If you don't make it a priority in your life, you can't be surprised when it's lost it's luster.

Maybe if people put more effort into knowing themselves and their needs before getting into a serious relationship, and communicated about these needs, we wouldn't have these issues. I'm surprised that a couple can go a month without addressing an issue, let alone years! Problems like these don't sneak up on you - they are present for a long time before something like cheating happens. Ignoring something when you know your spouse isn't happy is wrong. Not advocating for yourself in relationships is wrong. There is blame on both parts - but if you can honestly say you've done the very best you can to communicate your needs clearly, there's not much else you can do. I just doubt sometimes that people *do* give everything they can to communication - it's too hard, feelings might be hurt, whatever crappy reason.

What's all this "least worst" nonsense? That's "least bad", or, simply, "best", to those of us who speak English. Learn to write gooder.

@139: I assumed the "conversation" had already happened and that's where "but I'm saying "no, not interested," had come out. At the point you wash your hands of responsibility towards him, you've lost any claim on permission, too. If that's your attitude, you've also lost the right to play the "but you're my spouse, I deserve better" card. So did he, before you said essentially "you're not my problem."

@140: Fair enough, but the sentence I was responding to didn't say "wanting to have more sex." or "wanting to have different sex." Dan recently printed a letter from somebody who hadn't had sex with his spouse for ten years.

Heavy sigh badgirl. I hope by now it is apparent that I am more concerned about adverse consequences than moral judgments. The latter is between you and whatever deities you believe in, unless me and mine are directly affected. As to being shocked, nothing short of an admission that you were you were a cannibal, pedophile, rapist, and/or serial killer would really shock me. However, I might go eww about certain kinks because of personal esthetics. As long as discretion is used (i.e. I don’t appreciate having anything jammed down my throat, an aphorism or figure of speech, not intended to be taken as any form of criticism for the literal minded out there), if it doesn’t affect me and mine have at it. A truly appropriate use of DADT. Most people, most of the time, and I include myself seldom think about the consequences of their actions (any action) before hand and the affect those actions have on others until well after the fact. Most people aren’t that calculating or manipulative.

A couple of general statements of principle based on observations and conversations. Many, if not most or all, heterosexual male cheaters are hypocrites and committed to the double standard when it comes to cheating. Many, if not most or all, heterosexual male cheaters are engaged in some form of dominance games with other males. The male of every specie is probably hard wired that way (dominant male and all that). Not being female or bi or gay, I really can’t make any kind of informed statement with respect to them, but I suspect everyone plays game (e.g. friends and siblings who try to steal boyfriends or start rumors).

I don’t know if you’ve ever had a philosophical discussion about cheating with your lover. For that matter, I doubt if many participants ever really talk about the subject. Personally, I would find it awkward and uncomfortable to be that introspective while in an affair. Given your reaction to his comments about his friend’s wife, I suspect that he may be displaying his real attitude towards cheating and by inference how he would react if he found out that his wife was cheating like he is. Then again they may have an open relationship. I kind of doubt it given his reaction, but who knows. I don’t/can’t know what he has told you about his marriage over the years or to what degree you’ve tried, could, or been able to determine the truth of what he has said. Given what you’ve written, I doubt that you are really comfortable about what he has said about his friend’s wife. Personally, I would start to wonder what he actually thought/felt about me, but then I don’t really trust a lot of people anymore having been burned more than once (by different people in various personal and business relationships). Sometimes I wonder if there is something about me that attracts certain types of people. I can assure that the typical badboy/badgirl (and I’m not referring to you) has no appeal to me. I perceive you to be a basically decent person in a bad situation. If you weren’t you wouldn’t be experiencing the grief you seem to be. Remember, I am self described as skeptic and a cynic.

A piece of unsolicited advice, maybe you should end things with your lover (at least for awhile) if you can’t stop beating yourself up over your actions. I realize that you have considered it and it would be difficult, but I suspect the physical and emotional toll (based on what you have written) is doing no one (you, your husband and children, your lover, your family and friends, your employer, etc) any favors. If you aren’t already seeing one, I suggest you see a mental health professional if only to talk to an objective person about your situation and feelings. However, (depending where you live) finding a competent, discrete, and nonjudgmental one who doesn’t have their own agenda and biases can be difficult. Explaining why you need one may be difficult/stressful.

Sorry about the novel.

@147 - why don't you try reading the conversation from a little farther back... the "no not interested" was imagining a theoretical future, in response to a hypothetical question

@147. Trying to have sex with your partner and being turned down does not entitle one to cheat. Sometimes I don't want to have sex. Maybe 5% of the time. Sometimes, my parts are broken down. I'm not going to be all TMI, but really, being the owner of a vagina sucks a lot sometimes. Sometimes I'm sick. Sometimes I'm tired. Sometimes, he's been kind of absent and I'm not feeling very connected to him. I don't want to be a sex provider and not a partner and friend, someone who gets to spend time with him & have fun with him. I'm a human being, not a machine, and I'm not obligated to consent to sex every time the opportunity presents.

I do have a responsibility to communicate my needs, and to keep my partner happy, so if this goes on for some time, we make it work. How many people who are sexually unfulfilled actually sit down and say, "Honey, we haven't been intimate for a while. Is there something bothering you? Is there something I can do to make it better for you?" How many people make a genuine effort to figure it out, rather than assuming? If you've made your best effort at making it work, and it's not, then you say, "Honey, I am *unhappy with our sex life*. I love you, but I've tried to communicate with you about it and it's not working. *We need to discuss other options*." LAY IT OUT THERE! It's probably not going to be one conversation, but several. It's an effort to be fair, and to ethically get what you want. The benefit is that then you're not a CPOS, and if things blow up, you can actually say accurately that you did everything you could think of, and that she didn't.

@150- and this gets back to what you wrote @135, that the person hearing the complaint has to try really really really hard not to get defensive, and just listen to the one who is unhappy. These conversations are hard and painful and scary. I do understand why people want to avoid them. But good stuff, important Relationship and Life stuff, can come from having these hard, painful, scary conversations.

@150 - I can actually say that. And it was not about our sex life. My husband withdrew from me one fine day three years ago. The first couple of days, I assumed he had issues that he was working through, and that he would tell me about it soon enough. Keep in mind that we had a great marriage until then. But the days went on, until it became weeks, and then months, and he wouldn't respond to anything I asked. He seemed to have time for every one but me; I tried everything I could - I begged, I pleaded, I cried, I fought to no avail. The only thing that continued during that time? He would reach for me regularly at night, and I would give in, because I hoped against hope that it would bring him out of whatever demons were affecting him and our relationship. During the course of those eighteen horrible months, I began to feel worse than a whore. Even a whore has *some* choice - I didn't. I still held him when he slept, loving him, crying silently until my pillow remained constantly dampened with my tears. Finally, one night, eighteen months after he first withdrew, I sat next to him after putting our younger child to bed. And placed my hand on his as he sat on the sofa, and called his name so I could tell him something. He pulled his hand from under mine and snapped "What?" Something broke inside me that night. I said "Nothing." Then walked upstairs, took off my wedding ring and the chain around my neck that signified our marriage, and something died inside me. So, yes, I can say that I have tried everything I could to save my marriage and nothing worked.

My relationship with my lover happened much later. I have been friends with this man for more than ten years now. We became lovers two years ago. And as I mentioned, we are both seeking emotional solace in each other; the sex is rare, since we live in different states. And neither of us are into phone sex; our phone conversations are that of friends; only much more frequent since we used to speak daily. He has been estranged from his wife for more than ten years; and what I liked about him from the first was that he has never blamed his wife for the failure of their marriage. He speaks of her with respect; and is very upfront about the fact that while he has his reasons for being estranged, if I asked her, she would have her own. They have been to counselling thrice, the third time even going so far as division of assets. Then they decided to stay together for the sake of their children; and her only stipulation was that no one know that their relationship was hollow; that, in the eyes of family and friends, their marriage seems perfect. That is a status quo that he will not change. It was something he made very clear long before we began a physical relationship. I appreciate that about him, and to my mind, that is a lot more honest because he is not promising me anything that he cannot fulfil. He knows that my children are important to me; he knows that I care about my husband, and always will, even though we do not have a relationship to speak of.

Circumstances brought me into a relationship that I had never looked for, and it is very dear to me. He makes me happy; I give him some solace in the emotional wasteland that is his life, and I am grateful that he is there in my life. I will never do anything that will upset his family life, such as it is; neither will he. We support each other through life's vagaries, and we have learnt not to take our happiness for granted.

I do not say this in defence of an extra-marital relationship. I only offer this as my experience - one which I had never foreseen; one about which I had very strong views against, in fact. It is strange the way life throws a googly at you that you never saw coming.

150: You know perfectly well I wasn't referring to being occasionally not up for it. You can stop whacking that straw man. It's dead.

At least in all the stories that get published, by the time the words "No, I'm not interested" leave someone's lips, it's a very, very safe bet that all of the above had already happened. In one of the recent ones published here, those same basic words came out in the counselors office. (google "loyal like a dog")

@152 Geminigirl, do you think it's possible your husband is bipolar? What you're describing sounds a lot like what my sister went through with her ex. If he's emotionally abusive to you (as you describe), isn't it possible that you'd be better off leaving him, for your own sake and to avoid modeling for your children that this is what a normal relationship looks like?

@153 - perhaps you weren't, but I read your comments as o-b-l-i-g-a-t-i-o-n. Perhaps that wasn't what you intended, but it read that way. Sorry I misunderstood.

However, I'll bet that as soon as "We need to discuss other options" leaves the lips of your spouse, the level of interest in communicating skyrockets. Yeah, many people probably dance around the topic, but how many people say, "I need sex and if you're unwilling to ever sleep with me, I will sleep with someone else." That's the lay-it-on-the-line that I'm talking about, and if you are regularly a person of your word, that shouldn't fall on deaf ears.

I don't think it's a safe bet to assume that a spouse has actually had the balls to state their position clearly. If you do, and your spouse calls your bluff, it's on them.

Badgirl, I'm sorry if my earlier comment seemed pedantic or intrusive. It's just that your comment struck a nerve. To wit, I thought I knew who someone was (for much longer than 8 years) until they said and did certain things that made me realize I didn't know that person at all. They displayed a side of their personality that I had never seen before and was completely out of what I thought their character was. An over generalization perhaps, but a person may say one thing (theoreticlly) and react in a completely opposite manner when they are faced with reality. Many conservatives are really good at pontificating about things when they have had no personal experience with them. In any event, I do hope things work out well for you.

@154

Erica, no such thing. I mean, my husband had no clue even that he was being emotionally dense. Anything (during that period, I mean) I said to him about my feelings - and I am not a great one for hinting - would be met with 'That's not true.' Which really hurt because what did he mean that the way I felt was not true? When he finally woke up to the distance between us, I was already in love with the other man. Our circumstances were unfortunate in that by the time he was trying to fix things between us, I had withdrawn emotionally.

My husband is a good man. And I care for him immensely. But our relationship will never be the same again. Since we cannot /will not divorce, I try to ensure that we have a civil, even friendly relationship - the best we can under the circumstances. He knows that I love another man. I told him. I have also told him that it is okay with me if he finds some one else. Why would I wish him to be unhappy?

@157, my sister's ex is a good man too, but the disease meant that he was sometimes intolerable to her. It's just the way you described his attitude toward you changing from one day to the next, with walls going up, shutting you out - it sounded like mental illness to me. But I'm glad to hear that the two of you have come to a compromise you can live with.

Erica, geminigirl, anyone else with a male spouse in the 45-55 year old age range: Required reading: The Irritable Male Syndrome by Jed Diamond. Sounds so much like what you're describing. Mid-life hormones change some men in quite stunning ways.

@145 thanks for your thoughtful responses... I especially agree with your last paragraph.

skeptic and a cynic: no worries man, I have considered everything you have said, and obviously you don't have in depth knowledge of me and my situation, nor of me and yours. Surprisingly enough, my lover and I do talk philosophy at great lengths sometimes, including the philosophies of fidelity, and even of faith, which you have alluded to several times. (Atheist, thanks for asking, lol, but not an immoral cheater because of my athiesm, please don't paint all of us like that, I am hugely passionate about Mr. Dawkins' "out" movement! Most athiests are super moral people). We go a lot, LOT deeper then fuck buddies at this point, I guess a certain amount of that is inevitable after so much time.

It definitely sounds like (and I hope I am not assuming too much here), you have been on the recieving end of what we are dealing out. And I am very sorry, I can only imagine how much devistation is has caused, and yes, of course we have considered it. Its why we are so incredibly careful, we truly want no one to get hurt, but so hard to give each other up. So if indeed I am correct in my assumptions, I can understand your cautionary tales. My husband I don't think would be as shocked as his wife; he knows who he married (an insatiable slut, lol), whereas her? She is more of a traditionalist....the shock wave would truly be enormous. So extreme, *extreme* caution is undertaken.

I know this sounds hokey, and when I am looking at it now, yes, of course I know its wrong. Duh, right? But when I am with him, I dunno. Its beyond lust at this point. Sometimes it seems so pure, like how can this be wrong? I know, I sounds like a friggin' Hallmark card, and again with the rationalization! Lol, gag. Its hard to give this euphoria up for the drudgery of the everyday mundane, knowing nothing I have in my "real world" makes me feel quite like this. Some would say "divorce", but how moral would THAT be? Ripping apart two really wonderful famiies because I really love fucking and hanging out with this guy? Plus, just soooo not an option, for so many other assorted reasons...

I hate the phrase "cheating." It makes monogamy seem like a contest of endurance. That just seems like a bad way to think about a relationship.

badgirl I’ve given what you wrote last serious thought. I don't know if you are still reading this column, but some thoughts for your consideration. Morality too often has very little to do with whether you believe in some form of higher power or not (e.g. the Catholic church and its historic treatment of victims of pedophile priests) whether you are monogamous or not. As you say, I don’t really know you or your situation. There is no way I can. I just offer you some of my experiences.

I may have misread what you have written, but I think you said that you and your husband engage in extramarital activities together (this wasn’t a factor in my marriage). That he is somewhat aware of your other activities and is strongly opposed to them. If so, do you know what his reasons are for staying in the marriage and if there is some expiration date? You say there are children involved. Is it realistic to expect him to tell you what his long term intentions/plans are? Rhetorical questions, no answers expected. At some point many people just go through the motions and stop really communicating. What’s the point, they have effectively gone their separate ways. All that is left is smoke and mirrors with the people masking their true thoughts and feelings. For me there was an expiration date and my subsequent actions came as a complete surprise to my wife. Nothing violent, I just left. She went away for the weekend and when she returned I was gone along with all my stuff. The divorce papers were on the kitchen table and I started a completely new life. Needless to say she was quite stunned. I wound up doing things and becoming a person I never thought was possible, who knew.

Cheating changes relationships and everyone involved (duh). Things are lost that can never be as they once were (trust, respect, self respect, communication, affection, love, intimacy). Some wounds are just too deep that they never really heal (a general observation not limited to cheating). Since lying and secrets are generally involved (even if it is only suspicions), once he knows/suspects that you have lied to him how can he really believe anything you ever say again if he can’t verify what you say. It was true in my case and I had to wonder if anything my wife had ever said to me was true. Since the trust that should exist between spouses was destroyed, the implicit belief in her truthfulness/honesty/integrity no longer existed. There is nothing more corrosive than the knowledge/belief that you are no longer the most important thing/person (children excluded) in the life of the person you loved and that they have and are lying to you.

None of this is probably relevant to you, but what you think you have at home may not be real.