Comments

1
A majority is 50% + 1. 43% is not a majority. However, 74% supporting marriage or civil unions is. The problem is that when this question is reduced from 3 options down to two (marriage or not), the pro-marriage side is either not a majority or a very slim one. Turn that question into a ballot initiative and the numbers fall even lower. We need a strong margin before any real change is possible. See DADT repeal--supported by huge margins in polls but getting Congress to do anything about it was extremely difficult.
2
Ahhh, the majority of WHITE Catholics support gay marriage. Not hispanic, black or "other" Catholics.

Be careful before posting headlines that say "The Majority of American Catholics...." when you really mean just white people. Kinda suggests that only WHITE counts. You've been in Seattle too long!
3
Perversion is a monster of so frightful mien,
As to be despised needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with the face,
we first endure, then pity, then embrace.....
4
as a Chicagoan Dan gets his bigotry honestly.....
5
@2, What is the percentage of non-white Catholics in the United States?
6
Is there something wrong with the word "plurality"? It's a useful word.
7
6
yes.
but Danny doesn't know what it means
8
I am a gay man born and raised Catholic. I am also hispanic. The first thing out of my mother's mouth when I came out was "We know and we don't care. We love you." My father responded in kind and they both hugged me for a long time and thanked me for telling them. In fact every response I had from my large, very catholic, very hispanic family including grandparents was just the same as my mom and dad.

Shortly after speaking with them, I decided to speak to my priest via face to face confession and explain why I had not been in attendance in Mass for over five years. He listened to me and supported me. Never brought up hell or sin or anything negative in the least. In fact he said that one day when I enter a relationship (I hadn't at that point.) it would be foolish to think that we would not also have a physical relationship and that should not be denied to us as consenting loving adults.

While I highly the doubt things will change anytime soon with the Holy See, these experiences only strengthened my faith in my family and God. Call me naive maybe even foolish, but it is how I feel and because of it remain Catholic.
9
Yoga?
10
@1 Regarding "We need a strong margin before any real change is possible." Which is why the Supreme Court waited until the poll numbers were on their side before ruling in Brown v. Board of Education, right?

@8 I'll call you foolish. It's awesome that your family still loves you in spite of the mandated bigotry of their cult of choice, but how can you accept a book that gets homosexuality wrong as holy inspired? Is your all loving, all perfect god allowed to be so incredibly fallible that he gets love wrong? It's just a book dude, written by men. Your god is a fiction.

@9: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/lo…
11
As someone who was raised in a strict Catholic household, my disdain for that church only grows as I get older. In my mind, it is a horrible monster that has feasted on mankind long enough.
12
there will never be a catholic spokesperson who doesn't toe the party line. Because if someone does speak up, they will be excommunicated, and thus cease to be catholic.
13
I just want to point out that you don't have to be a "cafeteria Catholic" to be a Catholic that supports gay rights. One can absolutely believe that being gay is a sin, yet support the rights of those who don't follow your religion. Just as whatever Catholics out there who still believe that all premarital sex is wrong presumably don't support arresting people for it....
14
My staunch Irish Catholic family (Mom, Dad, 3 Brothers, 12 Nieces and Nephews) all support marriage equality for myself and my partner of 9.5 years.

We're winning, even if only slowly.
15
@13 - What you're advocating is a kind of church-and-state-separation that should naturally come from being a modern and reasonable member of a secular democracy. Fair enough. However: underneath it is a strongly implied love-the-sinner-hate-the-sin mindset that is absolutely INFURIATING to people from the "sinning" population in question, because it's superior, condescending, dishonest, passive-aggressive, and corrupts the minds and morals of children.

Any sinners care to back me up on that?
16
We shouldn't care what the followers of an organization run by child rapists think.
17
11

the Whore of the Earth ruins all she touches.
too bad your family wasn't Christian....
18
As my extremely devout Irish Catholic grandmother (twice a week mass attendee - matriarch of a large Catholic family - rest her soul) always said: "The Pope may sit on the Throne of St. Peter, but he's still a human being, like everyone else. He's welcome to his opinions, but sometimes they're just wrong!"
19
@17 - that's a funny quote coming from someone who, when confronted by his lack of Christian values, always claims he's not a Christian.

Please explain yourself.
20
@3: "Familiarity breeds contempt."
--Aesop

Which one is it, bucko?
21
19
It's not a quote, it's a quotation.
22
20
Which one did we say it was, asswipe?
23
@21: Actually, "quote" can also mean "quotation".
"–noun
9. a quotation.
10. quotation mark." (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/q…)

@22: So you place more credence on the word of Alexander Pope than on that of Aesop?
Alexander Pope secretly subcontracted half of his translation of the Odyssey to two other men, and then claimed their work as his own. Also, when asked to produce a new version of Shakespeare, he rewrote a great deal of the Bard's work to better suit his fancy, including chopping ~1560 lines out because he thought they sucked. In fact, rewording Pope's quotation in order to make it better fit what you're saying is EXACTLY the sort of shit that Pope might have pulled.
Also, he was a Catholic, which you might care about.
24
What @12 said.

Also, personally, I'm a little reluctant to count anyone who's fine with civil unions but not marriage unless there was an actual ballot in front of them and not a survey.
25
@10 you do not need to be a douche bag and an asshole to #8
A little respect will not hurt ( and He (#8) is not even shoving his beliefs into your ass) you asshole atheofascist
26
I just don't understand how anyone can call themselves a Catholic but be opposed to so many of the things the church says and does. It's like saying you're a member of the Seattle Police Department but you don't follow any of their rules and don't agree with any of their policies or opinions, you even think many of the things they do are harmful or worse and the only thing you agree with or do is those parade drill team performances. But still call yourself a cop.

People make no sense sometimes.
27
@10 - Sirel8's family cares more about him than it does about the Book. Being Catholic is more of a culture than it is a religion. Most Catholics I know think the Pope's ideas are fucked up, but it's the culture/religion they grew up with.

28
For years I answered "Baptist" whenever I was asked what religion I was. The fact that I haven't been a baptist since I was 12 was irrelevant. (Age 12 was the when it hit me that everything they were saying was wrong.) American culture especially places too much importance on the question 'what religion are you?'. Thankfully a lot more people are finding it in themselves to simply say 'none' instead of using whatever it was they were brought up to believe. I'll be 50 this year & haven't claimed a religion in over 20 years. I can see why some people still label themselves "Catholic" when they really aren't. It's more of a cultural thing. The biggest problem I have is when the NALTs won't stand up to their group. You can't be totally for equality when you're actively supporting an organization that's so against it.
29
@8 Because the people closest to you are willing to ignore the explicit commands of the Catholic Church, you want to be Catholic? That is the opposite reaction you should be having.

@25 If the leader of your organization has recently claimed that condoms spread AIDS and claims that being gay is sinful, expressing your fidelity to that organization will generally get you treated disrespectfully here on SLOG.

I know, you want the rules to be different when that organization is religious but it is not going to happen.
30
I think the genius of Martin Luther King was that he framed racial equality not as a radical reform of the status quo (even though it was that) but as America fulfilling the ideals of its own founding documents.

The same thing has to happen for broad acceptance of marriage equality in America. The majority of Americans aren't going to become secularists and atheists. But they can (and should) be made to realize that treating gay people as second-class citizens is a failure to live up to such fundamental tenets of Christianity as "love thy neighbor" and "judge not lest ye be judged".
31
Yoga?

*facepalm*
32
23 - And to top it all off, he couldn't even construct a tolerable hand of cards without giving Belinda the top four trumps:

The skilful nymph reviewed her hand with care
"Let spades be trumps," she said, and trumps they were
Spadilio first, unconquerable lord
Led off two captives trumps and swept the board
As many more Manilio forced to yield
And marched triumphant from the verdant field
Him Basto followed, but his fate more hard
Drew but one trump and one plebian card
With his broad sabre next, a chief in years
The hoary majesty of spades appears
E'en mighty Pam, who kings and queens o'erthrew
And marched triumphant on the fields of Loo
Sad chance of war! now destitute of aid
Falls undistinguished by the victor spade...

I think I'm missing a couple of lines, as it's been 35 years since I've seen The Rape of the Lock, but I have never understood why Belinda just didn't lead out the king and queen of hearts (the ace was not the highest card of the suit - I am almost certain that on the last and decisive trick the Baron led the ace of hearts, and I definitely recall Belinda winning the final trick with the king, which was lurking in her hand, mourning his captive queen, who had been discarded on a trick taken by the wily knave of diamonds trying his arts) after the top four trumps.
33
Anyway, while this comes as no surprise to me, (having seen many, many catholic families quietly use birth control despite papal announcements to the contrary) it is still not helpful (witness the current attacks on availability of birth control and such). The loud ones, the ones with power, the ones with money, are still angling for legislation against birth control (just as they are against gay marriage and other rights). So it's still necessary to quell the official face of the church despite the quiet non compliance of the laity.

It only reinforces my belief that while individual religious belief is or can often be mostly harmless, the organizational/institutional component of it is mostly harmful.

I also find the distinction on "white" catholics interesting. I found this site http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
which ultimately led me to this pdf: http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/table-…
which suggests that roughly 65% of catholics are whiten and 29% latino, although it is unclear how they defined "latino" since the note at the bottom suggests that "white hispanics" are advised to ID as white.
34
When I meet a lesbian Cardinal... or even a preist, I'll go back to the Catholic church. Until then, I'll remain an ex-member of this particular private club that spreads inequality to woman and gays and continues to support pedophiles.
35
"I just don't understand how anyone can call themselves a Catholic but be opposed to so many of the things the church says and does."

The same way you can call yourself an American an be opposed to so many of the things that American corporations and government say and do.
36
Look.
Catholicism is two things: a culture and a religion. You can love aspects of the culture and hate aspects of the religion. I love incense and mary and holy medals and praying to saint anthony when I lose stuff (and getting it back) and St. Jude when I'm in deep shit (amazing stuff has happened) and weird miracles and the fact that multipe female relatives have smelled the scent of roses when praying to St. Rose of Lima. At the same time you can hate all the hypocritical shit. There can be really wonderful, supportive, inclusive parishes. You can't tell someone 'turn your back on your entire culture because people at the top (whom you have no control over) say awful shit. Can't you be proud of being an American while hating George Bush? Love the people around you but hate the governmental system? What's the difference?
37
@34 - try the Reformed Catholic Church. I hear they are very open-minded.
38
36 We may have no true control over those in our government, but we're supposed to have some control because this is meant to be a somewhat democratic system.

That's a huge difference. The Catholic Church is not meant to be democratic.

I don't see Catholics accusing the pope of being a criminal and protesting the Church and making some attempt to exert some control over what they do. Not doing any of those things is a big part of being Catholic.

The fact is, the Catholic Church is a pretty vile and despicable organization. You're basically saying that people wish to belong to this vile organization because it's comforting and the local chapters are really quite nice.

I'm sure the local chapters are quite nice. If they realize they can't get your money by spouting hate, they'll be tolerant. You'll keep going to church and participating in those comfortable rituals and tithing your 10% or whatever the fuck it is.

But, the money you give ends up at the top that you have no control over and won't attempt to control. It is used to spread AIDS and aggressively maintain poverty and make gays feel subhuman and make sure the pope is wearing Armani while he accuses atheists of causing global warming.

So, you shouldn't be so hurt that your decision to stay comfortable with your ritual and your nice, local parish is met with derision. You should expect it. You should feel some shame about it.
39
Who are these nonpowerful quiet majority of religious people? Even just the white protestants. I've been brought up to believe that that's the typical caricature of your average american, is someone who's beliefs are mild and they go to church for the hell of it I guess but that its largely moral metaphor for them and they don't take the Bible literally. But I swear I don't know any of those people. Everyone is either an atheist or a born again. I actually do see more of the fox news types of people than I do this reasonable majority. Who the hell wastes all that free weekend time on church or religion at all unless they're really into it, thus a born again?
40
Um, I grew up Catholic, and I know plenty of people who disagree with the higher ups, and try to do something about it. I, and many others like me, refuse to give money to the church, engage in discussion with our priests/teachers/the catholic community, point out the obvious hypocrisy to many Church policies, critique the Church publicly, and generally try to affect change. I'm preaching to the unconverted, which is WAY more beneficial than talking about gay rights with hipster friends in coffee shops. Neat plus, I don't give my very religious grandparents/aunties and uncles heart attacks, or cause a rift in my boyfriends deeply religious ethnic minority family and community! Who has a better chance of changing religious people's views on Gay rights, sex education, and contraception: nice seemingly Catholic girl who can talk (Bible and Catechism) shop, or my polyamourous marxist pierced and tatooed hippie cousin? She's awesome, but doesn't have a hope in hell of convincing Aunt Mary who's on the Catholic Schoolboard that we need better sex education in schools.
41
I agree that Catholicism is both religious and cultural (very much like Judiasm). There are so many open minded Catholics out there... I really hope sometime soon there emerges a more visible Catholic group that can serve as the voice of this group of Catholics.
42
If you actively oppose Catholic dogma and refuse to support the Catholic Church financially, then calling yourself Catholic is more than a little vague. My understanding (I do not think I am way off base here) is that full communion with Rome is the main requirement of Catholicism.

You've even taken to describing yourself as a "nice seemingly Catholic girl" all of a sudden. Are you a Catholic or do you just have the appearance of Catholicism? Because, if you're clear that you are really just sort of pretending to be Catholic, you're probably not going to get called out by the anti-theists and there is no issue here.

I am not okay with calling somebody a Catholic only because they are superstitious and enjoy ritual. That would be conflating two insanely disparate things that should not be conflated. I think we should keep the word 'Catholic' as it is and, if that doesn't describe you, you should use more or different words.

Honestly, I hate the term Jew . I try to only call a person a Judaist or a Hebrew to be clear about what I'm saying about the person.

And there's a bit of a false dichotomy to imply that the only option other than seeming to be Catholic is to be a polyamourous, marxist, pierced, and tatooed hippie.
43
Frankly, I think that you would have an overwhelming majority if you just gave up the word marriage and used another term.
English is a language that makes fine distinctions, and there is nothing murky about the word marriage. The words connected to marriage are gender words. The religious group has ancient dibs on this word, and they will stand their ground until hell freezes over. Disarm them by calling your committed union by another name.That way you can get your civil benefits without making war. Get out of the faces of religious people.Show some dignity and choose another word. Do it wit panache. Do it with grace. Do it now. You will earn more respect for this one act of courage than you will for a lifetime of vociferous protesting. We, the unaligned in this dispute, want it to go away. One side has to give in. It won't be the religious group, so you do it for the sake of the country. Take the high ground. Be heroes. Move on. It's the Christian thing to do.
44
@42: It isn't really up to you to decide who gets to call themselves a Catholic or not. (Or a Jew, for that matter.) There are "cultural Catholics" out there - like myself - who have varying degrees of religious or spiritual observance while following some of the rituals and traditions of the Church.

If I'm asked, I say I'm Catholic even though I've only been to mass once in the last three years. I frankly don't care if you are "not okay" with that. You don't get to define who I am.

@43: No. Separate but equal isn't equal. And marriage isn't just a religious term. Why should a small group of bigots get to control it?

Rather than proponents of marriage equality getting "out of the faces of religious people" I have an alternate proposal: religious people should get out of marriage. Strip churches and religious ministers of the right to perform legal marriages. If you want to get married, you go to city hall or the courthouse. After all, it's a civil contract.

If you also want to have a big church wedding with whatever sacrament your religion prescribes for marriage, you can do that too. But it won't be your recognized, legal marriage.
45
@42: Linguistic anti-Semitism?
46
@44 I don't want to define who you are. I'm not saying you can't call yourself a Catholic. I'm saying that, when you call yourself Catholic, you are being pointlessly vague. You could add one word and prevent a lot of confusion and false assumptions.

And, if the topic of conversation is birth control or homosexuality and you say you are a Catholic who uses birth control, that will be very confusing to many people for reasons that must be obvious to you...because you were being pointlessly vague on an important topic.

We don't know exactly how many people have died long, slow, agonizing deaths of starvation because of the pope's vile dictates on birth control. It's a pretty important topic. It wouldn't kill you to be a bit clearer.

@45 The term 'antisemitism' can be used to refer to somebody who wants to end the life of a stranger because of that stranger's genetics. It can also refer to a person who doesn't think a grown man should suck the genitalia of babies as a profession.

Sometimes, a lack of clarity can be fucking maddening.
48
@1 Actually, dude, if you look at the stats they list, there's more support for same sex marriage by Latino Catholics than by white Catholics. The link is here: http://www.publicreligion.org/objects/up…

45% vs. 41%
49
sorry shw3nn, that we don't break ourselves into categories you approve of. Judaist? Come on, that's really bizarre.

Catholics are people who were baptized catholic and never ex-communicated. Hence me saying 'I'm a Catholic'.

I'm Catholic. I was baptized, had first communion, reconciliation, and was Confirmed in the Catholic faith (drunk. Does it count? I'm Irish, it should count doubly!). My family members work in Church offices, I went to Catholic grade school and high school. I correct other Catholics when they say 'sermon' to 'homily'. I pray for Mary and the Saints to intercede on my behalf. I also use condoms for premarital sex, and support my gay friends. If the Church got rid of all of us, they'd be short a LARGE percentage of their flock. You can't completely separate religion and culture, they're intertwined.

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