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Apr 26, 2011 at 10:02 am
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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Do you support marriage rights for polygamists?
I support legalization, but this is flat-out wrong. Countries that have legalized prostitution (even American liberals' precious Netherlands) have seen a huge increase in trafficking since legalization.
@6,
They'll go to the MANY brothels that flout the law and force women into sex slavery anyway.
Now that we've legalized it, let's make an automatic 20 year sentence for any john who has sex with underage children and ship them to Iraq and Afghanistan to "defend" them while our troops come home.
Makes sense to me.
In Netherlands, it is estimated that there are from 1,000 to 7,000 trafficking victims a year. Most police investigations relate to legal sex businesses, with all sectors of prostitution being well represented, but with window brothels being particularly overrepresented.[115][116][117] In 2008, there were 809 registered trafficking victims, 763 were women and at least 60 percent of them were forced to work in the sex industry. All victims from Hungary were female and were forced into prostitution.[118][119] Out of all Amsterdam's 8,000 to 11,000 prostitutes, more than 75% are from Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia, according to a former prostitute who produced a report about the sex trade in Amsterdam, in 2008.[120] An article in Le Monde in 1997 found that 80% of prostitutes in the Netherlands were foreigners and 70% had no immigration papers.[121][122]
Ron Paul fan spotted. "Obviously a lack of regulation is better than regulation because blah blah blah blah blah I'm a goddamned moron who lacks any imagination and intellectual curiosity"
There are also many, many men who want underage girls. If prostitution by legal-age women is legalized, this traffic will continue unabated.
The notion of a "clean" sex industry separate from the depredations of the abusive one is unfortunately a fantasy. They're the same people running it. I support legalization in very limited circumstances but I have no illusions about it seriously impacting trafficking.
Legalizing drugs doesn't stop drug abuse, either.
Let's keep punishing the victims in both cases, forever.
However, it must be stated - the rates of underage sex trafficking have been hugely and fraudulently overstated by a group who discovered they get more federal funding if they lie. They've drummed up national hysteria with their fake science similar to the whole immunization->autism fiasco.
If you want to seriously make a dent in sex trafficking, you need to support the hard work of increasing the economic and legal status of women in the third world, and that's the unglamorous task of a generation, possibly more.
I'm not saying that prostitution shouldn't be legalized: I absolutely think it should be, if for no other reason that laws against common human behavior (exchanging sex or comfort for consideration) are absurd. But let's not pat ourselves on the back and claim that in doing so we're helping anybody but those least in need of our help.
I agree with you, Kristof (BTW, I've read his book co-written with his wife, "Half the Sky") and virtually all the commentators. Prostitution should be legal. And, @29 & 32 have especially excellent points. I didn't know the Dutch are having second thoughts about their liberalization policy or that their policy might incite human trafficking.
There have been a few cases of human trafficking prosecuted right here in Washington state. Alas, Kristof is correct it is happening right under our noses.
legalizing just avoids the underlying issue - in the old days we'd arrest the exploiters and johns/consumers, ship em off to Nam and they'd kill people and get killed doing it
and we could pretend it wasn't an issue.
There is a certain trade-off here, because, undoubtedly you're going to ban some mutually beneficial exchanges - the ones that Dan and Tyler Cowen highlight. But given the empirical experience, proponents of legalization need to own up to the fact that they're willing to accept the raped minor as a price for the freedom of the honest John.
http://www.economist.com/node/12516582?s…
http://www.spiegel.de/international/euro…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitutio…
You can't figure out why a county in a desert wasteland doesn't have the same rates of trafficking as a real city? You're fucking hilarious.
Economic standards are *better* in the Netherlands. And, I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do a lot to convince me that the United States, with its extreme allergy to any social justice programs, is going to do worse than the Netherlands to help exploited women.
And sure, just because adult porn is legal doesn't mean that people don't make illegal child porn, but children coerced into pornography are regarded correctly as victims, while underage 'prostitutes' don't seem to be regarded by the law or society as victims of statutory rape and sexual exploitation.
Well, that's news to me. Then Kristof changed his tune. I have it documented in a column a few years ago that he had no problem with "adults exchanging sex for money or other compensation". Thanks for the update.
Thank You for your support.
Dan.
Do you support marriage rights for polygamists?
Thank You for your support.
Dan.
Do you support Candlejack rights f
Thank you for your support hose.
Dan.
Do you support Munchkin rights?
oh look- they've mind-melded!
Re: the Swedish model - I wonder if my brain is playing a trick on me or have I read somewhere that the UK was going to adopt a better and improved Swedish model - basically the john gets prosecuted if he solicits sex from an underage girl or trafficked woman, but mutually consensual exchanges are legal. I believe that creates incentive to go to licensed professionals rather than trafficked girls so I am not sure that it could cause an increase in trafficking.
I'm all for some kind of regulation, since prostitution is one of those things that simply cannot be eradicated, and I don't even think that eradication is really a worthy goal with regards to sex work kept between consenting adults, but I don't know that either Amsterdam or Nevada are good examples of how to do it.
"(Home Secretary Jacqui Smith) also wants England and Wales go further, by criminalising paying for sex with someone who is "controlled for another person's gain".
This will be a "strict liability" offence, and ignorance of the circumstances will be no defence in court.
An example: A man approaches a woman who is selling sex. She tells him that she is not being controlled. She gets in his car. Police charge the man with paying for sex. He insists he had no idea she had a pimp - but he still ends up in court and is found guilty. In other words, if you go to a prostitute, it doesn't matter whether or not you know that she is being controlled - you will be charged. "
"Why hasn't the government brought in an outright ban on paying for sex?
Ms Smith told the BBC ministers had considered a ban but had ruled it out as there was no public support for such a move.
Instead, she said the government's efforts would be focused on reducing demand for trafficked women, who were "effectively held as slaves", and there would be a marketing campaign aimed at men who used prostitutes. "
You are correct, we tolerate the "Adult Film Industry" here and barely blink. It is essentially regulated prostitution. I recall telling an acquaintance that several years ago and he looked at me and after thinking said "You're right!"
@50, I read a while ago that Britain was to tolerate "mini-brothels". I haven't followed up on that.
Also, I remembered another problem with the Swedish model: as long as all paying for sex is criminalized, trafficking will flourish in neighboring countries, especially along the border - that was the sad outcome in the countries surrounding Sweden.
If cities begin taking an arrest the "johns" approach then everyone better not start whining when rape and sexual assault start to grow percentage wise. Just look at what is happening right now in the area around New Jersey. Some speculation is that the serial killer might be a cop or former cop.
Do you support marriage rights for polygamists?
Hey, all legal. What is your hang up, dad? Legalizing it sounds like all will be clean and above board. But watching "Deadwood" is a better characterization of what legalized prostitution looks like than "Pretty Woman."
I support marriage for gays and lesbians, and would vigorously oppose polygamy, and think I could draw some distinctions as to why, but I would like to hear Mr. Savage's, and anyone else's, for that matter.
Do you support shit was SO cash rights for Paulie Carbone?
that's some run-on sentence. I do. why? because having regular three-ways would be pretty sick, brah!
I don't buy the argument that men only want underage girls or boys because it's cheaper, some do. To ignore the desire for certain power dynamics and the desire for children is irresponsible. Some men want an 11-year old. Maybe the cause of sex trafficking underage girls could be helped by addressing the DESIRE FOR underage girls or boys?
I think what we are lacking is a conversation about this desire. Who knows a man (or woman) that actually wants the underage girl? What we're asking these men to do is ignore this desire…which we know from the Catholics, doesn't work.
Dan don't be silly and completely overlook desire, you tell us all the time that it means a helluva lot.
Also, @32 you make great points! I would go further and say that we need to work on the economic and legal status of women everywhere, not just in developing countries. I know we don't like to talk about gendered power dynamics, but so many of our issues (transgendered women, sexual violence, and even gay bullying ) require a nuanced understanding and discussion of sexism.
It is similar to driver's licenses and drinking in the United States. When I was 18 - 20, I had a fake ID made by a friend. It had rough edges and the forged barcode on the back got wet and the ink bled. But because I knew which bars didn't really care or pay attention, I got to break the law all I wanted, though an unknowing observer wouldn't have known that.
If other countries had legalized prostitution, traffickers would divert their "trade" to those places, too. The more places that legalize, the weaker the incentive for trafficking.
Of course there will be individuals and organizations who evade and corrupt the law--like the bars I used to frequent--but it would be worth the deterrent effect on other entities.
The problem is that it's not just Bible-thumpers opposed to it. Plenty of "liberals" and independents are too.