Winning the War on Drugs


Goooooooooood daaaaaaaamnit
Old news, and chock full of misinformation as well. But I guess I shouldn't expect anything more from you folks.

The autopsy confirmed that he was hit 22 times. And he was holding an AR-15 in his hands at the time. And he was a known scumbag, not just for drugs.

What would you have done? Walk up and nicely ask him to please cooperate?
"Known scumbags" can be shot on sight, that's OK.
Fracking back east Nanny State Communists and their fellow travelers in the Republican House ...
This is the first time I've ever heard 5280's version of events. Care to provide a link?
The Failed State of Arizona.

@2, fuck you so hard your head splits open. What would I have done? How about NOT BURST INTO HIS HOME WITH DOZENS OF GUNS BLAZING. He hadn't committed a crime. He did not in fact commit a crime at any point in the proceedings. The penalty for being a "known scumbag", whatever that means, isn't death on sight. And what, pray tell, was his 4-year-old kid guilty of?

You're a fucking shit bag of a pig fucker. You're into these guys, aren't you? You think this story's HOT. I'll bet you have a fucking chub going just reading about it again, don't you? You fucking piece of shit PARKING ENFORCEMENT OFFICER.
@3, when they're holding an AR-15, you betcha.
So what's the reason for not letting paramedics help him for OVER AN HOUR? Clearly a man lying in a lake of his own blood is no longer a threat to anyone's safety.
@7, cause holding a legal gun, in your own home is totally an occasion for a execution style killing.

fuck you troll.
@5, this story's ancient history. I could have given you a link a week ago. Let me see what I can do, but no promises.
It's Arizona and the dead man's name ends in a vowel: no charges will be filed.
@8, he had fallen out of sight into the adjoining room. As far as the officers knew, he could still have been conscious and holding the gun. They did send a robot in as soon as they could get hold of one. He was dead by then, though.
@9, maybe if someone had answered the door after they showed up with sirens and flashing lights, and knocked on the door yelling "POLICE," it wouldn't have come down that way. This wasn't a "no-knock" raid.
Fear. Total, irrational fear causes shit like this.
There is never, ever any excuse for SWAT raids in marijuana cases. Fucking absurd.
@ #7;


a person with no criminal record, and not committing any crime is a "known scumbag" if they own a gun, ( and an autopsy can confirm that a person is a "known scumbag" odd) but I guess the upshot is that;

good point...
5280, I recall you usually being one of the more articulate RKBA defenders here, so seriously: WTF? Whatever his history, the man was engaged in no criminal activity when the raid happened, and from all accounts owned the weapon legally: if protecting your wife and children against invading armed thugs isn't the whole point of legal gun ownership, what is?

...never mind the insanity of sending a SWAT team on a marijuana raid...
This is an awful story, but I agree with 5280 that police should knock down people's doors while they're sleeping to take their guns.
@13, again, 5280: prove it. Was there a reasonable expectation that he was aware that it was the police? A lot of the details seem to be hotly disputed and the cops are being really squirrelly and secretive.

They initially claimed he fired at them until concrete evidence proved otherwise, and I don't even see a claim that they announced themselves first.
This could happen to anyone 5280, including you. SWAT team gets the wrong address, you grab your gun thinking its a burglary, and BLAM! (blam blam) you're a corpse and people take to the blogs and talk about what a scumbag you where.
This guy was linked to a home invasion crew. That alone if true makes this ok.
5280: there's links to the video on Reddit right now. He had no chance, none, to come to the door.

Here's video of the raid. Does it change your mind?
@2: Give it a rest. What do police do when they see a suspect holding what appears to be a weapon? They shout "drop your weapon!"
There's no evidence yet that they even identified themselves as police, rather than an uncommonly well-armed street gang.

You and your miserable piece of shit NRA fought like hell to make sure that guy and all the other guys like him out there including your own motherfucking goddamn self had access to all the military hardware you could possibly want to own. THIS IS YOUR WET DREAM, MOTHERFUCKER. Man with assault rifle protecting his home? That's YOU, baby.

I wish this would happen to every NRA shithole starting with you. Maybe you'd stop your gun bullshit.
5280, I like you but you're totally full of shit on this one. This was absolutely disgusting to watch.
@21: No. People "linked" to home invasion are not to be shot on sight.
According to the video, there are barely 4s between the time they get in and the first shot. Not a lot of time to drop the weapon.
Fnarf wins. Fifty-two eighty, seriously, what the fuck? Isn't this every example the gun nuts give for why they need guns to protect their families at home? But when it goes all sideways and the defender bites it you turn and go "well, he deserved it."

Seriously, that's so fucking wrong. Seeing you turn on your own is just disgusting
@2 Your to busy reading people's responses to your online posts to ever do anything, so stop having opinions
TV news coverage indicates that 5280 is just repeating misinformation published by Pima Co. Sheriff's officials, which have since been proven false.

Note, the SWAT team apparently did not ID themselves before entering, and the man's wife saw people getting ready to bust in but didn't know they were cops so alerted him that something was going on.

What concerns me is that the Sheriff's dept initially told several lies to make their actions justified, which have since been debunked.…

Maybe this guy was a criminal, but that's not the issue here. We are a country of laws and due process, not executions by SWAT teams.
Truthfully, what happened here is pretty questionable, and I'm having a pretty hard time believing either side of the story. But yeah, when in doubt, I'll pretty much side with law enforcement every time.
raku @18 for the win.
@28: Ironically, it can also be used as an example where owning a gun rise the level of danger: it make other people with guns very ticklish.
@31: because they never lie or abuse their authority? In the present case, although they've already lied (about the man using his gun) you still think they're credibility is that high??
@31: And that's all the proof we need, I guess. I've seen plenty of links on this story since it happened a WEEK ago, but none giving ANY of the information you're spouting off here. But it doesn't matter to you, since you'll just side with the cops every time.

Way to think critically, 5280.
@31: then you are a fool. as someone who used to be a DA, i can tell you your trust is misplaced. cops lie _all_ the time, particularly about whether or not they violated someone's constitutional rights. us lawyers called it "testilying." and judges and juries believe them,
But yeah, when in doubt, I'll pretty much side with law enforcement every time.

That's a pretty authoritarian attitude you have there. I thought you were a small government kinda guy?
But yeah, when in doubt, I'll pretty much side with law enforcement every time.

You've obviously never visited this site:
5280's caustic wit and libertarian-leaning, equal-opportunity misanthropy makes him a fun commenter to follow. Only exception was his occasional over-earnest sermonizing on gun rights. With this thread, he basically admits, "Guys! I was kidding about all that!" And that's cool. I can go back to enjoying the heck out of the rest of his comments all the more.
Fucking infuriating shit here.. and 5280, you're an ignorant LEO dick rider. Go suck a shotgun barrel you peice of shit. Last time I checked you're innocent until proven guilty, no excuse for SWAT teams in this situation.

I went to college in tucson, the fucking anti gang unit showed up to our frat house in full swat gear b/c we had a "betas in the hood" themed party, wearing track suits & drinking 40s. AZ is notorious for their overzealous policing.

I really hope that this is investigated and charges are filed, but in the end I'm sure that no pigs will be charged & the taxpayers will pay millions to the widow
@39. make. not makes. My defective computer screen only displays my own grammar errors after I push "post."
@39, 5280 is anything but libertarian. He's a right-wing statist fuck.

The guy who got murdered by police was an honorably discharged marine, not a "known scumbag." The sheriff's office is covering their ass. They fucked up, bigtime.

Everyone should read the whole story. It's by Radley Balko, newly hired by HuffPo, whose work has been cited by the Supreme Court in cases of police abuse. He usually doesn't waste his time writing about "known scumbags."
@31, I'm normally a supporter of reasonable policing, but to these ballbags, and to you, I only wish I could wipe my ass on your badge. I hope these AZ cops get murdered in their turn.
The trend of removing all the risk to the cops has a serious drawback as we've seen here and with the Williams shooting. The overwhelming force used to "protect" the officers invariably will end up with them killing even more people.
It's similar to the military's reluctance to send ground soldiers in to get a guy out of a house. Blow up the house and there's not risk to your squad. Unfortunately you just blew up an entire innocent family that was on your side until that point. Counterproductive, but safe to your "men".
@44 - well said
Republicans killed this man. Absent either the War on Drugs or the pro-gun, DIY home defense nonsense, he would still be alive, his wife would still have a husband and his son would still have a father. When are we going to hold them accountable and put an end to this insanity?
@42, oh ho. A Marine, you say? So Marines are known scumbags, 5280? Is that the official view of the NRA, or is that just on your ticket? Does the NRA know what a terrific job of outreach you're doing here, sneering at a man murdered in front of his family by a million paramilitary cop assholes, and cheering on the murdering assholes who did it?
@46, you don't honestly believe that most Democrats don't passionately defend and conduct the war on drugs? The man Obama chose as VP is one of the most notorious drug war hawks known, and he's always acted with his party's approval.…
what pro law enforcement types spin as regarding Collateral Damage looks like in the the War on Drugs.

Oh man. No words, no fucking words at all.

What a shithole AZ is. Who in the hell would ever want to live there? Oh, that's right: the Palins.

Merry@50: er, AZ != AK, although you couldn't pay me to live in either of them.

@48: yeah, sadly, the ever-more-militarized War On (Some People Who Use Certain) Drugs has been one of this country's most long-standing bi-partisan disasters. Plenty of blame to go 'round these days. (The Ds used to be the de facto sane party: their national platform called for legalization as recently as 1976. But the spineless cunts saw the poll numbers on Reagan's crackdown and we've been dealing with the fallout ever since.)

And can I just say again: this was a fucking marijuana trafficking bust. We are, as a country, completely insane.
@51, Palin just bought a megamansion in AZ to run her campaign out of. I imagine AK is glad to see the back of her.
Fnarf@52: lordy, it's like the Voltron of things I detest coming together.
@31: "I'll pretty much side with law enforcement every time"
And then from this thread, in reference to a proposal to ban persons on the Federal No-Fly List from owning firearms:
"if you're OK with some nameless, faceless bureaucrat with no accountability to anyone depriving people of their constitutional rights, without due process and with no appeal, then you're no liberal, sir."
You mad, 5280?
This is why I'll never cry or feel sad when a cop dies.

That goes for 5280. There's someone on earth, pal, that will think it's a better world when you go.
@55: Aaand we now return to our bullshit cop-hating.
You think that the majority of cops aren't just trying to do their job and keep people safe? You think there aren't cops who make it their lives' work to protect others? You think that most cops don't take "To Protect And Serve" seriously?
Get a fucking grip on yourself.
Who wants to live in Arizona? Well, loads and loads of snow birds from the Mid West and East Coast. Where do you think all the elderly, white racists are coming from? Mexico?
They don't even knock on the door? How can that be Constitutional???
The guy was also armed because two of his wifes relative's were killed in home invasions. So, yeah, I guess, in a way, he was linked to a home invasion crew. Oh, and nothing illegal was found in the home btw 5280.
@56: Thank you for keeping this thread rational.
I long for the day that we use swat teams on billionaires who actually do harm to our world, and COMPLETELY OBLITERATE THEM if they try to defend themselves against A HOME INVASION OF MASKED ASSAILANTS WHO HAVE ENTERED THE PROPERTY WITH THEFT ALREADY IN MIND.
Maybe after the first dozen or so someone will give a shit. Let's assume this "major asshole" had a billion dollars worth of heroine he was selling to 4 years olds, let's also assume that they had actionable intelligence that he was armed, dangerous and suicidal. Arresting him in a home invasion would have done absolutely nothing to the flow of drugs, the outcome is no different if they kill a drug kingpin or an innocent man trying to defend his home. When Swat teams go into homes like this THEY WANT YOU TO DEFEND YOURSELF, these assholes get off on killing people because that's what they've trained all their lives for. Fuck it, if they think a lifetime of PTSD is worth the drug war it's their freedom to make that decision (though something tells me if you sit them down and explain just how counter productive they are being even in the most productive days, my guess is they'd leave the job if they could financially). This idea that as a "free country" we're spending trillions of dollars we don't have fighting a war that clearly has no winners EVER and the completely unwinnable task of trying to stop people from changing their own body chemistry not only do raids like this prove that the only moral answer for the future is the legalization of drugs, they prove that law enforcement will NEVER have enough tools to 'rid' drugs from our neighborhoods. They're getting desperate, it's showing, we're probably only a few more thousand murders away from someone finally giving a shit. Maybe when he kid grows up he'll be a judge who will make it his life's goal to completely destroy law enforcement's capacity to overreach like this. Either that or he'll become some kind of unstoppable killer desperate to avenge his father's death. I'd say live and learn but clearly that's one aspect of SWAT that never was. They never learn, and they always leave a bigger mess than when it started.
So I guess the question for me is, what do we do, who do we support, how do we make sure that the police department in this case isn't able to just stonewall until the worst blows over? Do I write my congressman and ask for a federal civil rights investigation? What organizations, ideally not batshit loony ones, are working to limit the actions of the police?
@60: I'm never comfortable when I meet a cop and don't trust them especially when they're accused, but I wouldn't want to live in a country with no police.
Fuck with us and we'll fuck you back.
but way harder.
Stoners are just the first step.
you can't hide behind your corrupt judges forever....
@64: Go back to playing GTA.
any links to legal action against the police in this case? Or, does Arizona feel they were justified to shoot this guy?
This is amusing.. Folks on the more radical right want:

- Their guns (to hunt, and defend themselves)
- A smaller government, and the government to stay out of their business
- To love American, and worship the greatness of American by fighting for it, or dying for it.
Unless the police suspect you have drugs. Then because you had a gun (which they support) for self defense (which they support), you deserve to die.

Afterall, if you hear a siren outside for a few seconds getting flicked on and off (which you can buy on Amazon for $40 -…)

Then have your door kicked in by a barrage of armed thugs who don't knock..don't identify themselves..

As a soldier, trained in the military for years, put into combat to fight, bleed, and maybe die for our country.. When that 'fight or flight' reaction is hit.. what do you think a US SOLDIER is going to pick? Fight! Just like they were trained and programmed.

The Police force at the VERY best, has displayed incompetence and gross negligence and the entire management chain of that force needs to loose their jobs, along with the people leading the investigation.

Their further/later actions have shown a strong desire to cover the story up, rather than being open and honest with what happened. This force is corrupt. It appears to be more interested in maintaining it's image, or at the very least preserving their individual jobs than protecting and serving their citizens. That's not acceptable

I support my troops. How about you?

The police could have resolved this by having a uniformed officer walk up, politely knock on the door and serve a search warrant. Was that done? Nope! Lets go in guns-a-blazin!! YEEE HAWWWWH!!

Look: If you want your guns, and your right to defend yourself, then you have to expect - no, demand, that the authorities, who are armed as well, act in a reasonable way with respect to social decorum, like identifying yourself, then waiting for that information to be digested (maybe, what.. 10 seconds?) before you blast open a door.

If you don't, I too am going to try to shoot you, because at this point you're a home invader who may harm my wife and child.

If you don't agree with me, fuck off, because I could give a shit about your opinion.

Thanks for reading
"The autopsy confirmed that he was hit 22 times. And he was holding an AR-15 in his hands at the time. And he was a known scumbag, not just for drugs."

You're an asshole, I hope you're murdered for no reason because I don't like you.
urban police forces in this country approach their work like armies. they leave their comfortable white suburban pockets, arm themselves & occupy foreign urban territory and enact population suppression tactics. that's america.
im glad stormy finally pointed out what i was thinking as soon as i read that he was a marine- he woke up from a dead sleep, after lack of sleep, to chaos- chaos that would have been very similar to a battle situation- and which probably triggered his training- a soldier in this situation would have grabbed his gun out of reflex more than forethought, and it doesnt sound as if he had the chance to get his bearings.
Fuck, fuck, fuck the police. And fuck you 5280: your knee-jerk law-and-order and pro-shooting-things agendas are exceptionally out of line in this case. I'd rather 10,000 decent, helpful, non-authority-abusing police officers (the ones I really, really like) die than one innocent suspect, because the cops FUCKING SIGNED UP FOR A DANGEROUS JOB, while the innocent civilian had no choice in the matter. The error should ALWAYS be on the side of protecting an innocent-until-proven-guilty suspect. One cedes one's right to personal safety when one joins law enforcement (or the military, etc.) and instead swears to defend the safety of others. Your attitude is exactly what's wrong with way WAY too many law enforcement agents and exactly why this kind of shit or this kind of shit happens. You're usually a bit fringe with respect to this stuff, but this is thoroughly thoughtless and disgusting. See comment #67.
@5280, In addition to what @venomlash said, this guy was a Marine who had served to tours in Iraq. He was programmed to grab his weapon when trouble comes around. That's the sort of information that law enforcement should have and consider when considering an operation like this. Whether he's a scumbag or not, his first instinct is going to be to get his weapon and prepare for battle. Not to mention PTSD, etc, which could severely impair his ability to ascertain that it was in fact the police entering his home.

All that aside, what @15 said.
This guy was linked to a home invasion crew. That alone if true makes this ok.

Yeah, that whole "presumption of innocence" thing just ruins a good civilian shooting.