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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
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f you went to your GGG BF, and said, 'oh man, I've really messed up,' and then showed him this letter to Dan -- do you really think your BF just walks out the door? Isn't your sexual adventurousness attractive to this GGG guy? Do you think he might be able to see this, eventually, as a benefit, not a big bummer?
The evidence would trouble me, though. This is why couples need privacy from one another. Separate computers, separate offices if possible, and a don't ask, don't tell policy -- that's the secret to a long and happy marriage, in my book.
My only concern is that she's doing this after only 2 years with her guy. I tend to cut people more slack if they're in long-term relationships, when sex can get a bit stale if you don't stir things up a bit. If this is going to be an ongoing thing for her, as opposed to a once-in-a-while flirtation with someone who doesn't pose any real threat, then the chances of it causing trouble are much higher.
Dan's advice is flawed. Like most people he assumes that deleting a file or e-mail permanently destroys it. That isn't necessarily true, in most cases it is possible to recover deleted files and emails unless you overwrite the specific physical location on the hard drive. Web based email is different since nothing is actually stored on your computer, but that has risks of it own. Unless you can establish a VPN with the other person's computer you can not guaranty that no one else has access.
You can't trust your own biased assessment of how you would feel if your SO were facing the same scenario you currently find oh so very tempting. Better to consider how you actually responded to other scenarios in the past, even if they aren't quite the same.
Also, why assume what your boyfriend might think? You live with your boyfriend, he seems pretty accessible, so ask him. Does your boyfriend think this is horrible? Does your boyfriend want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't think it's horrible? Shit people, give your partners a choice. I'm all for fulfilling our sexual desires, but if we say we're in a relationship with someone (especially someone who is "awesome") then be in a relationship and communicate those desires, your humanity, your mistakes and triumphs. Be authentic.
Cowardice masked as "I don't want to hurt their feelings" is still cowardice. You called it a mistake, own up to it, discuss the mistake, and figure out how to move on. Consider this practice for if/when you or him really F up in the future. At least you will have laid some groundwork.
Damn Dan, my favorite part about your advice is usually that you encourage people to explore who they are, be who they are, love who they are, and all the while live with integrity.
First, the pics. They will bite you in the ass later. The cyber-fling is undoubtedly saving all those pics. There is a decent chance he's showing them around to friends. If you piss him off later (like the inevitable breakup), there is a good chance the pics will end up all over the internet. Dan's suggestion to delete-as-you-go is a pipe dream. No way is cyber-boy deleting these. If he tells you he will, he's probably lying. I have a firm policy of never sending a pic over the internet (or phone) that I wouldn't show my mother or my boss.
Second, you've only got 2 years invested in this relationship. You don't mention kids or mortgages or anything else messy. You say your live BF is GGG. I think it is relatively low risk to come clean and let him know. If you hide this now, you'll continue to hide future transgressions. It is a slippery slope that is likely to corrode your relationship unless you set up some ground rules you both agree to.
I send sexy shots but only neck down. Won't help if I ever become famous, but in the meantime...
That brings up a related question. Sometimes people want to do sexy video chat -- if I do that with a stranger, is it pretty easy for them to save the video chat and do what they want with it?
It's one thing to chat/flirt in the spirit of "this is just sexy fun, but I'm not going to cheat on my partner", but both flirters ought to have at least some idea that that's what it is. I'm not trying to take the fun entirely out of flirting--- nobody needs to sign consent forms-- but it's possible the guy thinks she definitely would cheat on her boyfriend the minute he showed up in town. (From the sound of it, I'd guess that he's right to think that, but let's take the writer at her word.) Basically I draw the line and say "not OK" to flirting if (a) it's done to provoke jealousy in a partner or (b) it's done only to draw attention to oneself or to emotionally manipulate someone else. It isn't (a) here because she's covering her tracks but I don't see any evidence that it isn't (b), i.e. she could be playing at making herself available to this other guy, without actually telling him she isn't available, and using the whole "oceans away" thing as validation for what would otherwise be shitty manipulative behavior.
OK, the guy probably knows the score about a chick who emails him out of the blue and trades sex stuff with him, but we can't automatically assume that he is as grown up about sex as the ideal Savage Love reader. It's possible (not likely, but possible) he is emotionally invested in their communication in a way that she isn't: she thinks she's playing this sex-crazed character in email, and he just thinks she's sex-crazed for him and really getting fixated on it. If this seems like too much of a stretch, reverse the genders, and ask if yourself if you'd be on the guy's side of that one.
Can I also just say a huge ick and "bad idea" to mailing that kind of stuff to someone you haven't seen in 10 years (and barely knew then). I try to be optimistic, but it sounds like she doesn't know this guy from Adam and certainly has no idea whatsoever about whether or not he is a creep. Any sex stuff and really any communication involves some degree of risk, blah blah, but this is a level of risk that I would put up there with mailing your name and sex tapes to anyone who responds to an ad on Craigslist. People act like it's sex-negative (or worse, letting rapists off the hook) to point out worst case scenarios that can arise out of doing stuff like this, but really, for heaven's sake, use some common sense.
Which is why, if any of you want to have a sexy video chat with me, I'll be wearing this:
http://www.corjac.com/Leather-Fullface-h…
:-)
Better safe than sorry. And anyway, it's HOT.
Me
If you feel guilty, or if it's hurting your relationship with your real bf, you should probably stop (and you probably know this). But hey, I've done my share of long-distance erotic bullshit on computer games. I know what it's like, so I'm not going to judge you.
It may make you feel better to tell your bf about it and see what his reaction is. You never know, he might get off on it too. This could become a shared activity. I know a couple that I used to play World of Warcraft with who were co-voyeurs and "online swingers" (they would basically do what you are doing, but together, with other singles/couples), and it really helped spice up their marriage without the pesky risk of STDs.
Obviously in your case, there's no chance of actual cheating. And he reaps the benefit of your horniness. But some people (those who tend more prudish than you or I) see this as an emotional affair. If it starts to take up time that you should be spending on your bf, cut it off immediately IMO.
And of course, effective immediately, cover your ass (by covering your face) if you haven't already been doing so.
Bird gotta fly.
Ho gotta ho.
If she thinks it's a mistake (as she says above), she should end it. If she wants to keep up the cyber affair (which she clearly does), she should just own it. She initiated the contact, she send her pictures to him, she is getting a lot of out of the relationship. There's no point in feigning resistance when she initiated the whole thing.
I don't know. I need to think about this some more. My immediate reaction was: "She's cheating on him." Even if it is online, sexting, pics, fantasies. Now, I'm thinking, "She needs to dump her boyfriend or tell him all about it so that she can be with someone who approves of what she is doing."
Yeah. She needs to tell him. I think anything less is dishonest, in this particular case.
Eh. Whatever. Them's my thoughts fer now.
Also, unless this woman is dating a computer expert or gives him a reason to track one down for assistance, deleting these files is good enough.
Switch to decaf.
I disagree with equating cybersex to porn. While I agree some partners may find both distasteful, I think porn is much more widely accepted as common and more likely known or allowed by a monogamous partner. Cybersex is not like that. It's in that list of things that partners should get to know about each other when/if they agree to be monogamous. Things like: Is it cool for us to go out on 'platonic' dates with other people? Is it cool to flirt with others? Is it cool to kiss other people as long as we don't fuck them? Does drinking change our rules? Does traveling to Vegas, on business, etc. mean a timeout from monogamy? And is it cool for me to have online sex with other people?
It is a matter of integrity. I'd want any serious partner to refrain from cyberfucking other people, especially their old crushes. And I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation. I don't want to sign up for "monogamish dadt".
@14, 16: Argh. I just do not understand the paranoia around online pictures. It's one thing if you're seriously running for or hold political office, I guess, but really. It's extremely unlikely that anyone will really care or find your pics, even if they do get put on someone's website. And if they do, just lie and say it's someone who looks a little like you. Not a big deal.
An actual relationship's foundation is trust and emotional intimacy.
It is possible to totally gut the foundations of your real world relationship without ever meeting your online cheating partner.
Don't tell, it won't help; quit the online affair or break up with your BF before more harm is done.
yeah,
Dan's advice to 'delete' is naive and useless in the extreme.
Anything sent out online is out there FOREVER.
Even if it is not accidentally discovered it is all just a court order away from full disclosure.
The internet gives the seductive illusion of privacy when in fact it is the most public permanent forum imaginable.
My point being, there are grey areas that unless you specifically discuss this with your boyfriend you can't presume to know his opinion on.
@4 EricaP - I think most people in their early-mid-20s in a relationship of less than 24 months wouldn't feel secure enough to view their partner's sexual adventurousness with others as a plus. The fact that the LW is put off by the thought of discovering her boyfriend doing what she is doing suggests they aren't in a position to openly push boundaries.
Bullshit or chickenshit? Can't decide, probably both.
Funny how cheaters easily give licence to their boy/girlfriends to cheat just as much (but not more!) as they do
Sorry, I know it's the digital age and everything but I'd draw the line at forming an actual relationship with your fantasy. I wouldn't care if my wife watched porn, liked romance novels, dreamed of naked famous people, or even thought about other dudes she knows in life. I would care if she took the next step and started an actual relationship with that person, and sending sexts, sharing pictures, in my opinion, is a relationship not just flirting.
Either own up to your failed monogamy experiment and see how the bf takes it or break up and let this awesome dude have the opportunity to meet an equally awesome chick.
I think Dan realizes that his advice is not completely without risk, however, his advice probably lessens the risk by 100 fold or more. So if you delete everything, at least ask the other to do the same (though there's probably only 30-40% chance of this happening, but it will improve your odds if they're honest), never send shots of your face, its extremely unlikely for someone stumble upon on evidence by accident.
Sex with a complete stranger is probably not a good idea either, but if you want to go ahead and take the risk, just be damn certain to use a condom. Condoms aren't perfect, but they do greatly reduce risk.
@34 yes, probably this is a sign (as suggested @28) that she has started unconsciously looking for a replacement boyfriend because she isn't ready to settle down permanently with her current BF. But the younger generation may also have different opinions about cybersex than people who weren't raised with the possibility. It's worth evaluating, especially since she says that she wouldn't mind her boyfriend doing what she's doing. (Though again that may simply mean she has one foot out the door.)
What if a person in a relationship has a bit of an exhibitionist streak, and likes to post nude and/or erotic photos and videos on the internet. Is full disclosure necessary for this?
Yes, I prefer to be *friends* with the ppl I fuck but best friends? It's not impossible, don't get me wrong, but um, what?
Cybersexing may be like strip clubs for girls, since, you know, men are supposedly more visually stimulated while women are more turned on by fantasy scenarios. The gray area is that the cybersexing partner isn't being paid.
Dan is not the other person in your relationship, and what he thinks about this is not really relevant, unless your boyfriend has agreed that Dan's opinions constitute the ground rules. I mean, you could do worse than that, but you would need to have that discussion.
You need to have that discussion.
If my boyfriend told me that he wanted to have this kind of interaction, I'd probably consent to it, and establish some boundaries. If he didn't ask and I found evidence -- which is hard to avoid in the long run -- I would leave his ass, because deception is my number-one deal-breaker. But that's me. Ask him.
My husband is my best friend -- just as I am his best friend -- and we like it that way.
But clearly I'm just a pervert and my judgement should not be trusted!
When it's porn, there's nothing on the other end of the line but a file server. If you are forming sexual and emotional attachments to _that_, then you need professional help.
Virginia, you should do what you want to do, but you should also consider having this conversation with your husband. Do you think he would be horrified?
The question is not "is it okay to assume he feels the same?" The correct question is "Is it okay to lose my boyfriend, should he find out and react badly?"
Only you can answer that one. However, given that you became sufficiently bored with your boyfriend -- er, sorry, ssufficiently distracted by some random guy out of your 16-year-old's memories, if that doesn't constitute boredom with the present -- to affirmatively take all the steps necessary to find yourself in your current predicament ... and all this after merely two years with him ... my guess is that yes, it's okay by you if you lose your boyfriend out of this.
If it isn't okay, you already know what to do. Or rather, what to stop doing.
This could be somewhat culturally influenced. Different cultures put more or less emphasis on familial bonds and romantic love, after all.
Blood relationships don't end, true enough. On the other hand, my kids are not my best friends, nor are my parents, nor are my siblings. My best friends are my friends, and my wife is the bestest best friend of the lot. If someone else had been a better best friend than her, I would have married that person instead.
I don't know about how you would react, but my point stands about not binding myself to someone who regards me as second-best. You don't get into my innermost circle without putting me wholeheartedly into yours. If my fiancee told me that husbands come and husbands go, but siblings/parents/BFF/dog/whatever is forever, the wedding would be off. The fact that she couldn't marry them is her problem, not mine.
@46: Yes, it would be incredibly hypocritical if someone said that strip clubs were ok but online porn/cybersex/online flirting wasn't. I'd hope the same people who thought you should be cool with strip clubs would also think your husband should be cool with your online flirtation, and the diehard monogamists would be against both.
Cybersex as described by TWIG involves explicit and interactive sexual activity with another person. Porn/strip clubs are most often only voyeuristic.
@67 As a die hard monogamous (I would too emotionally conflicted for an open or poly relationship, but that's just me). Flirtation and even cybersex, in and of themselves, aren't a problem as long as certain boundaries aren't crossed. They are no longer harmless when you become emotionally attached to another person and your real life relationship is affected.
@71 True, but as I said strip clubs are most often only voyeuristic.
Sure, he cannot grip about HER going to strip clubs, like he is, but if she starts cybersexing, he is free, I think to start insising that those blowjobs he gets from his coworker are no biggie either.
See how escalation works, kids? Avoid it.
And how is cybersexing sex? You are jerking off. There's more physical contact involved in a lapdance, and a lot of strippers engage in the same kind of dirty talk that goes on during cyber sex.
I'm mostly curious because I think it's kind of bullshit that some guys get pissed off and insecure when we even bring up our desires to interact sexually with other guys, when they expect us to be fine with them going to strip clubs for the same reasons.
dances and strippers who talk dirty, make you whip them, offer happy endings, etc... It's considered the skeeviest one in Portland.
I've just been grumpy about it and wondering about the fairness of it all. I'll get over it :)