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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Shit. Yet another thing that Portland can accomplish that Seattle can't.
Yes, like close the festering, drug filled needle camp they call Occupy Portland this morning when all the occupiers went home for breakfast. THat's right, Occupy Portland was defeated by a Grand Slam. Good job PPD!
What I like about Occupy Seattle is direct action. A chance to get out into the public spaces of Seattle to express with others our shared frustrations in a hope there that we might change the way things are ... or at least change minds.
When I'm protesting, it's not appropriate to stand in front of me and give me the wrap-it-up gesture. Or when I'm marching, to stop me to bitch about how the single issue message on the sign I'm carrying is co-opting the movement. Right?
Same deal. This direct action against a well publicized event put together by a well meaning community weekly was just lame.
This was a public forum hosted by The Stranger. It wasn't a general assembly. There were panelists speaking into microphones that people came to hear through a microphone. Not the peoples' mic.
A large part of this is about communication. How we speak to each other. Who get's heard. Who doesn't. It might have helped if the aggrieved parties began communicating with each other BEFORE the forum. SCCC and The Stranger's office are a block and a half from each other. A block and a half?!
What the fuck happened here that both sides are claiming they're a victim?
#74 - Priceless.
#87 Epic.
They never admit that he whole premise is flawed, building on a bad foundation makes for the wrong strategic decisions. They would accomplish much more real change if they would admit they are not representing the 99%, and focus on what their core really wants. 99% of Americans are NOT suffering gross inequity, not even 50%. Most people are doing about as well on the happiness/fulfillment/well-fed scale as any generation before. There are some years of struggle, there are some good years. This is not the apocalypse, though the madmen run through the street shouting thus.
#37 "OS hand signals" Are you kidding me? What is this, a Scientology cult where you have to use a secret handshake or you are not worthy of a voice? We have serious shit problems, wars, economic, corruption, the Kardashians...and you want to spread the gospel of hand signals? Go start a commune in the forest, cult-boy.
#67 Ooo...you stepped in one of the unspoken secrets. You started with "OWS started out with broad appeal", then shifted to a adopted goal of " ... getting out the lefty vote". When I was talking with organizers and first protesters in NYC, they repeatedly said it was a nonpolitical movement, against corruption on wall street and DC. But as the movement has grown more intolerant, it has grown more 'lefty'. It is no longer something 99% of Americans can or will support. The best hope is for it to transform into an organized version of a leftish Tea Party. The passion of MoveOn, without the political venom and Soros puppet masters. However, that's the best scenario for real change. If it it becomes a collection of the communists, anarchists, and those who want to abolish capitalism, it will die an unseemly death, maybe taking a few innocents down with it.
My take: there are two paths to real change in our great country. 1) work within the system for incremental change, and once in awhile significant changes or policies (i.e. Civil Rights, Sufferage, etc). or 2) Violent overthrow of our system, destruction, force, brother v brother, father vs father, blood in the streets and the death of the most shining candle of freedom the world has yet seen. Those are your choices. The larger the movement has grown, the more I've seen it spew disdain for working through the system as the Tea Party is and has been successful at. That is what happens when you launch a protest without a vision for a desired goal. The founders were too eager to see bodies in the street, to build a trajectory. Now they have a squirming, chaotic mess. Good luck organizing with any consistent message, at this point you will need it.
If you think there isn't a great deal of inequality and injustice being perpetrated by the system as it stands, then you're either ignorant or you're a callous prick. Whatever you think of their periodic grandstanding, OWS now has 2 full months behind them of raising some crucial issues and making sure that the news has something to talk about about aside from the Republican car wreck and the latest Kardashian scandal. Smart people like Fnarf and Seandr know how out of whack this economic system is, and they know how much good popular progressive movements have done in the past. Maybe you're too old and jaded to be solidly behind this new wave, but you should at least know better than to dismiss the entire endeavor. Seen-it-all pessimism is no way to improve things. You guys bum me out.
Matt's right: "Revolution should NOT be the goal. Reform should be."
86# "Humane society is the revolution." I thought the Humane Society was a place to take stray dogs. Ironic. Question two, this one's a tough one: If the 99% are with you, if this is all for the people, and the people value a humane society, then why do you not think society is already humane? Do you treat people poorly on a daily basis because Bill Gates put a gun to your head and said 'go be evil!'? I don't. No one I know does. We treat each other humanely, and we live in a damn fine society. Some problems, to be sure, but not evil incarnate that must be blasted to the four winds.
#74 - Priceless.
#87 Epic.
They never admit that he whole premise is flawed, building on a bad foundation makes for the wrong strategic decisions. They would accomplish much more real change if they would admit they are not representing the 99%, and focus on what their core really wants. 99% of Americans are NOT suffering gross inequity, not even 50%. Most people are doing about as well on the happiness/fulfillment/well-fed scale as any generation before. There are some years of struggle, there are some good years. This is not the apocalypse, though the madmen run through the street shouting thus.
#37 "OS hand signals" Are you kidding me? What is this, a Scientology cult where you have to use a secret handshake or you are not worthy of a voice? We have serious shit problems, wars, economic, corruption, the Kardashians...and you want to spread the gospel of hand signals? Go start a commune in the forest, cult-boy.
#67 Ooo...nice flash of honesty. You started with "OWS started out with broad appeal", then modified it to a goal of " ... getting out the lefty vote". When I was plugged into organizers and first protesters in NYC back in Sept, they repeatedly said it was a nonpolitical movement, against corruption on wall street and DC. Something a true majority could agree on. But as the movement has grown more intolerant, it has grown more 'lefty'. (or is that vice versa?) It is no longer something 99% of Americans can or will support. The best hope is for it to transform into an organized version of a leftish Tea Party. The determination of MoveOn, without the political venom and Soros puppet masters involved. However, that's the best scenario for change. If it it becomes a collection of the communists, anarchists, and those who want to abolish capitalism, it will die an unseemly death, maybe taking a few innocents down with it.
My take: there are two paths to real change in our great country. 1) work within the system for incremental change, and once in awhile significant changes (i.e. Civil Rights, Sufferage, etc). or 2) Violent overthrow of our system, destruction, force, brother v brother, father vs father, blood in the streets and the death of the most shining candle of freedom the world has yet seen. Those are your choices. The larger the movement has grown, the more I've seen it spew disdain for working through the system as the Tea Party is and has been successful at. That is what happens when you launch a protest without a vision for a desired goal. The founders were too eager to see bodies in the street, to build a trajectory. Now they have a squirming, chaotic mess. Good luck organizing with any consistent message, at this point you will need it.
There is a third option some of the hardcore protesters should consider. Stop trying to change the system, and go live as you would like to live. Either in a commune or a country more favorable to your ideals. That's not so radical. The Amish aren't complaining about the economy, they aren't unhappy. It's not necessary to have top of the world medical, college tuition, and iPhones to be happy. If you really want a completely different society, you could go start one, and see if you can grow past 150 that can stand each other's guts for more than a year. If you can do that, maybe you will have earned the right to tell others how to run a small village. But no more, and only after you've proven your ideas are workable.
There have been a number of posts in favor of the behavior of OS last night, but I can't recall any of them explaining what the point of all that was. One person said things are going to get a lot worse, so get used to it. I don't get it.Things weren't worse last night. There were panel members that I know spend a lot of time and do a lot of work at OS. Those people were totally disrespected. All of the panelist were disrespected. Why? Really, I sincerely want to know. Please. The peoples mic is great, I love it. But when there is a microphone, inside, like, use it. Is there a explanation for this behavior that makes some sense, or was this some mob mentality deal? You don't want things to be scheduled opposite the GA. The GA is every night, at the dinner hour. To this way of thinking, no one should schedule any thing any night of the week at the dinner hour. Seriously? OS schedules events opposite the GA. So I guess only OS can schedule events opposite the GA, no one else. That makes absolutely no sense. At. All. None of it does. If any of you have a reasoned explanation for your behavior lets hear it. You certainly haven't been shy about speaking up thus far.
@1: Babby's first troll.
@6: Sorry, I was out of town this weekend on a field trip. This?
It also seems very clear to me that "occupy" has run its course as an effective means of expressing progressive sentiment. Why the fuck are progressive politics suddenly joined at the hip with illegal camping? Who thought that was a good idea?
Then I compare OWS with the conservative movement that has been building since Reagan was elected back when I was a kid. Since then, conservatives have used political activism to win HUGE gains in controlling how our country is run, including our political systems, our schools, science, medicine, immigration, the media, courts, etc. They did that with laser-like focus on the voting booth - i.e., grooming and motivating conservative voters, and disenfranchising liberal voters.
Meanwhile, what's our team up to? They're busy holding circle jerks with hand signals.
Yeah, I'm bummed, too, Gurldoggie.
ows didn't raise these issues. some people have been aware of them and have been voting accordingly for some time now. it may have led to the dems finally letting their candidate in the last presidential election run as a dem instead of a faux republican. if they really care about these issues they will organize around them and candidates instead of being a minstrel show. if they really, really care they will make voter registration their #1 goal. since, as most polls say, people believe in the "movement," it takes is a candidate and getting them to the ballot box (in city councils, legislatures, congress, etc.). good luck. i'm pulling for you.
Seriously, the Democratic party had been all about deficit austerity ideology for months and months before OWS came along and deflected the national narrative. And they would clearly like to get back to that. I don't care if there are a lot of "dirty hippies" (ie people with ideals they are not ashamed of) at OWS - they got the national discussion talking again about unemployment , people losing their homes, and maybe even why Social Security and Medicare are worth fighting for. Maybe OWS has reached it's highest point with the organizational structures that have kept it afloat til now and has nowhere to go but disintegration. However, to say our state and national Democratic parties are now going to act differently than they have been without a totally different way of pushing is either naive or dishonestly manipulative.
(I suspect that Seattle is just too provincial and wishy-washy to sustain something like this in a powerful way.)
The evening started OK with each member of the panel making introductory comments. It was clear there were very different perspectives represented. This was going to be an interesting discussion.
Unfortunately, it wasn't long before the whole event was hijacked by a handful of people who were extremely arrogant, disrespectful and rude and intent on silencing everyone who might remotely disagree with them. Where was the open hearted acceptance of people with differing ideas and opinions? No where to be seen at that point.
After most of the program time was wasted IMHO in pointless discussion about process, sanity won out and the majority decided that they really did want to use the PA system which enabled everyone to hear what was being said. (Note: The acoustics in the main hall are so bad as to make the "people's mic" barely comprehensible.)
By the time the program got back on track and discussion began, any sense of collegeality was gone. There was not sufficient time to do justice to the questions being asked by the moderator. People were still upset (I know I was) and any chance of a deepening of understanding, respect and trust among a group of people who desperately want the occupy movement to succeed was lost. What a shame.
I hope there is some real soul searching done back at SCCC as to what happened. Was this really the result that members of OS wanted? Was the hijacking planned and approved by the GA beforehand? If so, what was their point? If not, who appointed the small group of provocateurs to do what they did and why?
And I do believe in revolution...we've moved beyond the idea of "reform" or "changing things at the ballot box". Seriously, it's like none of you paid attention to the 2000 election when the SCOTUS selected the President. That was game over for a nice happy thoughts of creating change at the ballot box. Unless you are all fine with the President of the US deciding which citizens are to be killed by the state without even the hint of a trial. (And THAT was from "the good guy" in the White House)
Once the show actually began, nothing of note happened. There were two questions asked of the panelists and the responses were superficial. Then the "audience" had equal time, but a bunch of what seemed to be Occupy regulars had cornered the line for the microphone. When their time came to speak, these people did not address the questions by Licata but instead talked about whatever shit fascinates and motivates them politically. I did not come to hear what a bunch of marginally-informed mostly-extremist progressives talk about anything. It is, in my estimation, extremely arrogant to presume anyone in the audience is interested in your thoughts. (A panelist would be less arrogant to assume that given that hundreds of people showed up to watch the panel.)
In a night ripe for discussion about today's most importact social movement on the left, I heard nothing of value from the entire evening.
I disagree on the halfwit charge: some are fully-witted in their attempts/aims to be selfish immature attention whores.
It would be nice though if they bothered to come up a platform, a 'mission' gawd forbid, that would attract broadbased support other than "hey you, you're part of our poorly defined economic demographic of anyone who's not one of the 400 richest families (and is therefore somehow automatically somehow POWERLESS) - therefore you ARE US"
the self-defeating aspect is a turnoff in the extreme,
. . . just like the guy who tells all his dates he's 100% undatable ...and them complains that FOR SOME REASON he never gets laid.
And instead I spent the night wavering between being appalled, annoyed, and fascinated. (Come to think of it, I'm having similar feelings reading these posts!)
Appalled by the rudeness (I get the shock value, but we're supporters, for crissakes).
Annoyed by having my and 400 others' time wasted by deciding the best form amplification. I was glad the guy read the GA's rules - it was a quick way for the audience to get insight into how it worked. But the rest was stupid posturing - 30 minutes x 400 people - that's 200 hours worth of the 99%'s time, not to mention alienating a bunch of people that could have been rallying their networks the next morning. Instead we're shaking our heads in confusion and sowing seeds of doubt far and wide.
And fascinated by the fact that the entire charade was all about control and domination. Isn't that what we're sick of? One group dominating another? If both parties really wanted to it could have been entirely avoided with a little better communication and shared expectations established up front. A 15 minute meeting the day before should have done it. But from what I witnessed, the point of the OSers that were on stage was to revel in their new-found power, and rub it in the face of the 'progressive establishment.' Ok, the existing progressive establishment could use some freshening up, some reminding of the priorities. And I definitely get the concern about being co-opted, to a point. But the message was "We're in control now. Move out of the way." I don't know who they meant to alienate, but it sure worked on me, and I'm sure as hell not part of the establishment.
So I'm just calling bullshit, because this is my movement too, and I'm not moving out of the way. I'm occupying my neighborhood, my economy, my bank account, my ballot, my voice. We don't have to cede our Seattle movement to revolutionaries. It's our choice. Don't roll over - buck up, dammit!
p.s.
I win!
I listened to some douchebag 'comedian' blather on for ten minutes at a rally about how voting wasn't important, and he never voted, blah blah blah. Great strategy. God, the republicans have succeeded in creating an underclass of woefully undeveloped, brutish minds.
The OWS movement is going to have to elect and secure leaders and eventually get some sort of security, that will throw disrupters out, if it's going to operate like a real political movement.
http://www.thenation.com/video/164494/wa…
Case in point.
Blah...blah...panel...blah...blah...discussion...blah...blah...warm cookies and tea...blah....
http://www.thenation.com/video/164494/wa…
Don't feel that the negative energy that exists with a few occupy seattle kids is representative of the whole movement!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVrxddbio…
Occupy Lego Land
http://blogs.marketwatch.com/specialrepo…
When something is broken, you fix it. I feel the same way about our government as I do OS and in both cases I see a lot of breakage. The difference is seen when I look at the fact that progressives have a stronger voice in each election, while it seems the voice of anyone who doesn't wear ratty black clothes and smell like cheese is discounted almost immediately by OS.
I've been politically active for about 25 years now. I've helped stage sit-ins that changed state laws, I've gone to and helped organize countless rallies, have committed civil disobedience, and have twice been a part of the occupation of a park. Never did I feel that the message of my comrades fell upon deaf ears or see it become so marginalized by the media. I hold my ability to take the advice of people who'd been doing the same thing I was for decades before me directly responsible for that.
I was spending time at OS before the move to SCCC, and while I was there discussed with many the protocols of good activism. Suggestions like "maybe if you don't want the press to report that you're a bunch of drug fiends you shouldn't be smoking pot in front of the cameras" were met with insult. If you're going to call me- a middle aged, well educated, highly skilled tradesman who can't find a job better than washing dishes in a bar- a "tool of the fascists" for suggesting you follow protocols that have been time-proven to make a movement strong, then I have no time to support your effort.
It seems to me that the majority, not the fringe, of the current OS group are nihilists and narcissists who think they speak for the 99%. My advice to them is if you want to claim to speak for the 99% start acting in a way that at least a majority of us will approve. As long as you disrupt the forums of your allies, reject those of us who have ideas that may differ from yours, and see anyone who rejects your misguided methods as "a tool of the fascists" you will never have the support or attention you so greatly crave.
Fuck your dance parties, fuck your self-serving attention-whoring. Fuck you going where you're told, and fuck you're double rainbows all the way across the sky. You don't have the spirit, Seattle, and while occupiers are a billion times less insufferable than the drab, ignorant, desperate to be lead know-nothings like Fnarf who eat the shit off the shoes of their masters and smile about it, while asking with hope, "thank you sir, is your boot ready to go back up my ass?", you do not inspire the way Oakland, NYC, Denver, Portland, etc do. Especially when viewed by those of us whom have actually known strife, and seen this decade dissipate finally into the cesspool we all knew was coming for years.
If you want to throw dance parties, and camp, and bitch a whole lot about what you do not know, fine. But you are purely symbolic.
And if you assholes who fancied yourself real activists "back in the day" are not occupying simply because a couple of kiddos are acting their age, and that's why you haven't joined, you were never really activists to begin with, and were probably just like the gits you are now blaming because you don't have any fighting attitude left in you but you don't want to admit your laziness. Seattle's populace are masters at the copouts, no matter how small. Both the apathetic fools and the youth who think this is a party pretty much equally make me sick.
"Fuck your dance parties, fuck your self-serving attention-whoring. Fuck you going where you're told, and fuck you're double rainbows all the way across the sky. You don't have the spirit, Seattle, and while occupiers are a billion times less insufferable"
Could you imagine having one of these people at Thanksgiving dinner (sorry, "Genocide Remembrance Day") in a few weeks? Pass the white meat....yipes!
This bullshit will bury the OWS movement just as surely as the racists and ideologues buried the Tea Party. Unfortunately the Tea Party at least got their shit together long enough to get a shitload of people elected to congress so they actually GOT SOMETHING DONE. OWS is going to self destruct long before they actually do anything useful. That makes me very sad.
Saddam Hussein...he took over a country. He had an Army. He had modern weapons.
And you know what happened to him when he thumbed his nose at the central paradigm? Yeah, they flushed his ass out of there.
So unless you at least have UAVs, and depleted uranium shells on cruisers...you will be beat.
Additionally odd, is that when the "pure egalitarian democracy" breaks down -- as it must when any degree of power is involved -- the arguments that are made are almost word-for-word the arguments the republicans are making (sans red-meat rhetoric). My favorite has to be the griping about the homeless 'freeloading' off the protester's...but there is absolutely no ability to note the hypocrisy inherent in the complaint.
Pure-Democracy can't exist and anyone who believes it can is...willfully blind and self-deluding. Too many decisions need to be made in any society greater than three people. Societies of only a few families need to compartmentalize responsibility and cities even more so, and nations...hello? anyone thinking out there? Representative Democracy -- a Republic -- is as close as we can get, which is the type of government formed in the US. We, the voting populace, NEED to stay informed and MUST stay engaged, else we can never vote properly or advise properly -- both are sacred duties of every citizen -- but we have the government we deserve because we don't think, I mean -really- think about who we elect, or how we allow the election process to function, and with the information available for us today, there is truly no excuse. But "omg we need democracy"??? Noooo, thanks. (See, Occupy *.*, if you'd -had- a structure, you'd have rules against the corruption within the Occupy *.* upper-echelons but...well...you get exactly what you deserve and you'll note the fantasy doesn't work, just like "99%" of liberal ideas: they're fantasy on paper that can't be applied to the real world)
The most amusing thing, though, is that they are compared to the Tea Party... damned if I know why. Do a very polite, quiet, sign-based demonstration, not trying to disrupt, just peacefully protest, at Occupy *.* and you're apt to get threatened, told to clear off, or worse. Tea Party? Not an unkind word said, no intimidation, just walked on by and let a peaceful protest of their rally happen. Some even engaged the protesters in polite conversation, and polite arguments, and that's as heated as it got. -That- is tolerance.
And, for the record, I'm not beholden to any side of the isle. I look, analyze, and think for myself. I, too, am aghast that no one from Wall Street (et. al.) hasn't been tossed in jail over this mess, but I also ask: did they actually break any laws? And, more importantly, why the hell did Glass-Stegal get repealed in the first place? (that last to Bill Clinton) Who are the morons who enabled this mess in congress, eh Mr. Frank? (anyone paying attention saw you berate the auditors who tried to bring the problems of Freddie/Fannie to light). Then again, if you really want to alter Wall Street, look at the politicians they're financing and by how much. If you do, you'll note Obama has both gotten more FROM Wall Street than any other politician and done more FOR Wall Street in the process. And you -- ha! -- call the republicans the party of wall street?!? Wow...just...wow.
#156, if you think the Tea Bagger town hall meetings are the direction that should be taken, you ought to be happy with the way last night's went. Remember August 2009 when the world was ending due to potentially looming single payer health insurance? Here's a refresher:
http://youtu.be/nYlZiWK2Iy8
http://youtu.be/lDWMxquNIpE
http://youtu.be/gS4MI8fuXzw
http://youtu.be/aAm6Qck5v78
The Tea Party won some elections, but they certainly didn't do so with a high level of discourse that should be admired or emulated. Disruptions abounded with vitriol at their town hall meetings, so I doubt the few mild disruptions by OWS will hurt us. It didn't hurt teabaggers, after all, and their behavior was nothing compared to OWS.
The 'Baggers stand for nothing. Their party was bought and paid for and handed a script, literally, which they followed.Some were paid to attend town hall meetings. They didn't get ppl elected, DIRTY MONEY did, while the Tea Baggers distracted the nation by yelling and yelling and yelling hateful lies. Not racist? Not bigots? Hrmm. You sure Rand Paul didn't say anything racist? O_o
Sarah Palin winked and read from her hand. Dick Armey pulled the puppet strings. Attention-whores showed up with guns to prove the point that they were lacking in "other areas". How did they win elections anyway? Ask that, and you've identified the core issues of OWS. That isn't the kind of world OWS wants to live in any longer. For some, it's a matter of life and death that they do not, as they or their children die from lack of health care, or nutrients, in a rich Western nation. This shamefulness is ending. Finally.
It would also do to remember that OccupySeattle =/= OccupyWallStreet.
The scary part is that most people don't realize when communication has become unhealthy, they don't realize when its one sided, so sometimes you need a wake up call. Wake up, and stop silencing minority groups. Even if they are crazy BO smelling radicals, their voice is our recognition of a major injustice in the system of "free speech". If you can't understand why your panel is broken, then "wasting" an hour of your time was more important then you can imagine.
I am going to die laughing.
There's a thing called the Internet, see, and on it is this place called YouTube, which has these colorful moving pictures with sound, and they rather plainly blow your little statement out of the fucking atmosphere, dozens and dozens of times, w/r/t how "polite" Tea Baggers are. Christ. That was sad but hilarious, thanks.
I agree that the "wrap it up" hand gestures were rude, and I yelled that to one of the guys who was doing it. I said "Don't do that. That's rude!" and he heard me. Whether that made a difference, I don't know, but I spoke up.
I'd like to hear from some of the attendees who attended the GA afterwards or others who didn't hate the process....
The scary part is that most people don't realize when communication has become unhealthy, they don't realize when its one sided, so sometimes you need a wake up call. Wake up, and stop silencing minority groups. Even if they are crazy BO smelling radicals, their voice is our recognition of a major injustice in the system of "free speech". If you can't understand why your panel is broken, then "wasting" an hour of your time was more important then you can imagine.
"then we are right back to where we started, in a broken government with broken free speech and misrepresentation."
I was unaware that this Town Hall forum was actually a government body. I thought it was a forum where people came to hear the panel discuss issues and to comment afterwords.
Maybe you are confusing it with City Hall?
Bullshit. This isn't about free expression, it's about winning a war that the 1% began. You put your best fucking foot forward. The OWS spokespeople that keep getting trotted out by committee are a joke. This, the two morons they sent to Colbert, all of it. You put forward neatly trimmed people that can speak to and that the bulk and majority of the 99% can relate to.
Ever wonder why Martin Luther King had everyone march and protest in their "Sunday Best"?
But I guess attacking the messenger is a lot easier.
Nationally, if you add up Occupy's many crimes and anti-social behavior (one of my favorites is dumping urine in the face of a Victoria, BC municipal worker trying to get a bicycle out of a tree) the list evidences a level of undisciplined deviancy unrivaled since Occupy's predecessor the hippie movement.
It's marvelous to see your enemy self-destruct before your eyes in such entertaining fashion.
When self-appointed spokesmen, possible agents provocateurs, and snarky commenters can't be distinguished from one another, the movement has a problem.
Here endeth the lesson.
I've given money to and supported OS with my presence over the last several weeks. No more. Too many comments in this thread attest to the biases, insularity, and extreme projective behavior from the core of OS.
These young Americans are on the front lines trying to take on Business As Usual in our country and around the world. The People’s Mic v the Mic as Usual was just a metaphor. They are the first ones to actually get off their couches and try to affect change since the 1960s. If it made some of us uncomfortable to watch and listen as they used their process to make their points–and not all of their points were shared by all of them (or us)–then I applaud the outcome. It was real and raw and beautiful. We all learned something!
And if there were some extreme and marginalized voices among them, I applaud them again. One of the most heartening (and disheartening) aspects of the Occupy encampments is the allure it holds for the most unfortunate among us. Drug addicts? Check. Homeless? Check. Mentally Ill? Check. These throw away people are being fed and shown respect in the encampments even though the burdens they place on the Occupy Movement is enormous– and is ultimately used against them. But they take it on as part of their responsibility to be inclusive–even when it threatens to make the movement a target for vilification (and subsequent removal) based on law enforcement concerns for health and safety. As if.
Let’s recognize the important contribution the Occupy movement is making, even if some aspects of it challenge our ideas. Like our ideas have worked out so well, eh?
I highly recommend attending a general assembly meeting. You can go to Occupyseattle.org, go to the calendar and find one. Don’t rely on the media to tell you what to think. Go and see for yourself.
Also: it disenfranchised the elders in the crowd who ARE a marginalized voice and a vulnerable population.
I want to believe in this movement so bad. But if they can't make it a few blocks what hope do they really have?
Yes, exactly. The People's Mic is not, as outside observers often conclude, a "cultish" mechanism of controlling or brainwashing the audience; it is rather a method of controlling the speaker.
This is why the core organizers of GAs and OWS insist on using The People's Mic even when amplification is available or unnecessary.
While it may be true that the people's mic forces speakers to choose their words more carefully, the fact remains that it was developed as a response to the police not allowing those in Zuccotti Park to use electronic amplification.
I absolutely hate that the Occupy participants seem to think that they're the first group to ever try this exercise and seem to remain ignorant of previous attempts to deal with the issue of efficient participatory process.
And their open scorn of other peoples attempting to use other methods --combined with that ignorance-- is at best a pitiful and sad statement about how deep rooted our societal failings actually do go.
:(
Actually, that's simply not the case. The People's Mic was developed long before OWS, and used regularly in the Global Justice Movement. It's an old tool for organizing "horizontal" social groups, particularly protests.
OWS was initiated as a Direct Action, i.e. in deliberate violation of the law; this is why the protest did not and still does not seek permits from the city of New York. Given this fundamental opposition to legitimizing authority, why on earth would they accomodate that very same authority's laws and rules about amplification?
Also, I could be wrong about this, but I don't think there has ever been a police ban on amplification in Zuccotti park. The People's Mic there often uses bullhorns, and PA systems have been set up and ready to use at plenty of events, including GAs.
David Graeber wrote an article in 1992 that includes a description of many of the structural tools used in GAs today.
Sorry, my mistake in saying the word developed. Though it certainly has popularized it more than a 2002 article in "New Left Review."
"Given this fundamental opposition to legitimizing authority, why on earth would they accomodate that very same authority's laws and rules about amplification?"
Is it your claim that any authority that does not practice direct democracy like an Occupy GA can be legitimate? Or simply that you find the current authority to be illegitimate?
Again, OWS deliberately chose not to obtain a permit, i.e., they chose to break the law. Why legitimize the amplification law when the whole point is to delegitimize authority?
The AP article cited (no longer publicly accessible) seems to think the hand signals (described in both Graeber articles I've linked) were invented by OWS, so I don't expect its information about the Human Microphone to be any better researched.
The article in The Nation does not look into the history of these tools at all, and has no quote from city officials on amplification.
Once a myth (or perhaps rationalization) like this gets popularized, it tends to become self-perpetuating; people repeat it to each other, and the media quotes them without digging, then more people hear about it via the media...
I have no dog in that fight; I'm citing the goals of the people who planned and initiated OWS (see my first link, @192).
Graeber's article from 2002 is relevant because he was one of the core planners of OWS. Again, see the link from @192.
How come people who claim their 'voices have been marginalized' always have the biggest fucking mouths and don't know when to shut up?
I actually agree with you on the expediency of twinkling.
@202
So, one thing I got from that is that you are at least somewhat aware that the media has that kind of power in constructing the narrative in the minds of your country-folk. Yet, what is being expressed by a lot of people in this thread is that it does not appear that that is a widely understood notion in the way a portion of people representing Occupy are making the choice to conduct themselves in the public eye.
The media doesn't even have to have a particular motive to not report the way you would like or with the utmost accuracy of some divine being. It's a human institution and is simply not perfect, and more to the point, who do you think protestors should be relying on more--> Their own agency in their conduct in the public eye, or acting out in the hope that every reporter is as seemingly well informed and nuanced as a Pulitzer Prize winner and will give them the benefit of the doubt?
In some ways when engaging the public it is like the old adage: if you have to explain the joke, then it's not funny.
If you pay close attention, I think you'll find that those "big fucking mouths" that "don't know when to shut up" are generally not those of "marginalized voices", but rather those of people taking it upon themselves to speak on behalf of marginalized voices.