To be honest, I think the issue has a lot to do with laziness. She's always been a why-do-something-today-when-you-could-put-it-off-to-tomorrow type of person and I'm starting to think that she just finds sex too much of a hassle. She's never been interested in quickies; sex always involves both of us having to go for (individual [tried that]) showers first (at her insistence) then generally involves 10-15 minutes of foreplay for her before me going down on her till she cums. Then we get to have intercourse. So, any time we want to have sex, it's a good hour's worth of effort.
She's never been interested in quickies; sex always involves both of us having to go for (individual [tried that]) showers first (at her insistence) then generally involves 10-15 minutes of foreplay for her before me going down on her till she cums. Then we get to have intercourse. So, any time we want to have sex, it's a good hour's worth of effort.
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OH NOES! An entire hour! She insists on foreplay!
...or maybe the problem is that you're a gigantic, selfish, self-absorbed douche? By all means get divorced: 40lbs lighter or not, your wife still could and will do better.
He starts with "I'm starting to think that she just finds sex too much of a hassle" and then complains about how much of a hassle he finds sex with her. Does anyone else see the disconnect there?
Sounds like the guy wants to go from zero to fevered vaginal intercourse at the drop of a hat, and he's pissed off that won't do it for her.
Actually, given the microscopic detail of this letter, I read that as more facts he wants to get out there, not "OMG, can you believe she won't suck my stinky dick when I demand she do so."
You guys would have a point if a) she didn't always make discussion of this difficult and b) if they had sex with any regularity. (Granted, as always, we only have his word for all this...)
As I understood it, it takes an hour just to get to the sex ( an hour of showering, foreplay, and oral for her only), and that only works if she is already up for it. Frankly, I think that's a plain sign she's just not attracted to him.
...no seriously, don't be an idiot. Of course I've had quickies. (GF and I have a kid: trust me, we know from quickies.) But I also don't think that (a) OMG AN HOUR is actually all that long (sheesh) or that foreplay is some sort of generally unreasonable demand.
It seems like his wife doesn't want to fuck him, and I don't agree that it is because it takes too much time and effort for HIM to fuck her. She just doesn't want to fuck HIM!
Booking a getaway, gift cards for her to female friendly sex shops? I think he will do fine in the dating world as a single straight dude.
signed, straight 20thsomething female who would looooooooooooooove some gift cards and a vacation.
Does anyone else find this aspect a bit odd? Maybe she has some kind of germ-phobia or cleanliness fetish? Not that it really alters the appropriateness of the advice, but it stuck out to me.
And before you say, "The guy's probably a pig who won't take a shower unless it's a condition of sex," she has to shower before sex too.
Just from this limited information, I'm not going to say she must think sex is dirty (literally or metaphorically). But I think it's a sign she has some issues she isn't willing to deal with. Control issues, obsessive-compulsive issues, I couldn't even begin to guess what kind of issues. But the showering thing seemed a bit of a red flag to me.
I'd agree with your assessment, he's clearly asking Dan for permission to leave. But we do get to speculate that there might be another side to the story, and my gut feeling after reading that third paragraph was that maybe he's overplaying her neediness because he feels he should have to put in less effort to get what he wants. I fully admit I could be completely off-base.
For the record: demanding foreplay is not at all unreasonable; expecting your partner to be clean is not at all unreasonable.
His details about an hour long session are no so much him complaining about it--indeed, he sounds happy to have one with his wife--but an example of why he thinks his lazy wife doesn't want to have sex. Because he thinks SHE thinks it's too much effort.
To quote from the letter: "To be honest, I think the issue has a lot to do with laziness. She's always been a why-do-something-today-when-you-could-put-it-off-to-tomorrow type of person and I'm starting to think that she just finds sex too much of a hassle."
Reading comprehension, people: It's your friend.
I'm not saying that it's right, but when I was reading this, I found my mind saying, "she's a lesbian!"
I also think it's indicative of something Dan brought up: depression. They have no kids, she has more days off than she works, he describes her as "lazy" and "a why-do-something-today-when-you-could-put-it-off-to-tomorrow type of person". It all sounds fairly unhealthy.
But, then, I could be projecting.
Dan receives and has printed what seems like a lot of letters from men and women who are basically looking for permission to cheat or permission to walk away from a relationship. These letters always have some kind of attack on the other partner's character or appearance. It's always "he/she is lazy" or "he/she put on weight", or something like that. Yes, of course those statements may be true, but in the looking-for-permission-to-leave context, I often find them suspect.
I'm not saying he's a terrible guy or anything; I expect he's probably desperate. But seriously, the vouchers for her birthday, the holiday booked primarily in order to get sex, not just because she'd enjoy it... I don't know, I certainly wouldn't find that attractive.
Sounds to me as though they're in a rut where he pushes and she's repelled by the pushiness. And yeah, also a libido mismatch.
Commenter 3 has it right; he said he thinks his wife considers sex too much of a hassle to pursue, and he illustrated why that might be the case by pointing out that she doesn't do quickies, and for them to do it "her way" requires them both to take separate showers, and is a process that consumes at least an hour. He isn't complaining that this is too much time, he's pointing out why someone who is a chronic, lazy procrastinator might consider that too much work to bother with.
Beyond this particular point, if you've never been in a relationship where the other person has a significantly lower libido than you, you have no idea how upsetting and depressing it is. I mean, look at the gaps in time between single incidents of sex; do you honestly think that this is the story of someone who is bothered by the idea that sex might take an hour?
C(AI)F, you have my sympathies. Best of luck to you.
To me, that looks like he starts by complaining that his wife is lazy, and then finishes off by complaining that he has to participate in foreplay and that it takes "a good hour's worth of effort." At no point does he say "...and she thinks that's too much trouble."
I will allow that the shower thing is a little weird.
Seriously, a guy's complaining about going without sex for 6+ months, it's not because he's got issues with it taking too long. She's not demanding foreplay, she's turning down sex because all the cleaning & foreplay is too much effort. FWIW, I had similar issues with my relationship (I'm the lazy one) & Dan's handjob/&c advice made us both hella happier. The difference here is that she's not prepared to admit the problem is partly hers to solve.
There's wanting your pleasure in a way that's fair to all parties. On the other hand, there's trying to avoid sex while making the guy the bad guy. I think we're dealing with the latter here.
Does she even remotely sound GGG to you?
But, yeah, overall this sounds like a person who doesn't want to have sex supplying a crapton of hurdles to make sex harder to get to. I'm not sure why people are piling on the letter writer, he sounds like he's been fighting the good fight.
@19: I agree, I'm sure more detail would lead us down that route.
Um... He says, "... and I'm starting to think that she just finds sex too much of a hassle." That's pretty much him saying, "and I think she thinks that's too much trouble."
And I'm not really buying all the recrimination here toward CAIF. In normal circumstances some of his complaints would seem selfish or insensitive, but making your partner shower and do you first, every time, and only going for even that once in weeks or months really makes me think that she's kind of disgusted by the idea - and act - of having sex with him.
And frankly even if he is an utter churl, you don't deal with that by shutting down, cutting him off, and refusing via various emotional landmines to discuss it. If he really were that bad, the solution at this point would still be for them to divorce, spend some time dating and growing the fuck up, and try again with different, more compatible people.
Actually, he does. Right in the middle of the block you quoted:
"'I'm starting to think that she just finds sex too much of a hassle."
If time is such a factor-- and sometimes it is-- then I suggest taking turns. You don't both need to have orgasms every time you have sex.
But honestly, it sounds like wifey is being emotionally abusive. This isn't someone with little-to-no sex drive; it's someone who has a sex drive but prefers the convenience of masturbation. If she cared at all for her husband, or if she were at all invested in their marriage, she would have put the vibrator aside for a couple weeks, let the horniness build up, and then fucked the hell out of her husband. That she's unwilling to do so makes her a selfish piece of shit.
Yep, It's a terrible situation to be in, because if both parties were happy, it would be a fun gift, but since they're not, she's insulted, and he's desperate and doesn't really know *what* would make her feel better.
Not only does this not support his hypothesis that she can't be bothered with sex, it suggests a rather different explanation.
But Dan is right. You are still young and there are no kids. If she doesn't want sex, then you need to find someone that does. Do your best to part ways with her on a friendly basis. Divorce can get ugly.
Unless you've experienced the 11 day menstrual periods etc. with your wife it's probably hard to understand this guy's bewilderment with what to do. I feel your pain my friend.
I will say this. This part: "Any time I bring up the issue, she tells me I'm "making [her] feel bad" or I'm putting too much pressure on her. " is interesting, especially given the amount of actual sex.
I have seen this sort of thing, multiple times, as a progression that happened this way (I describe this without putting blame on either party): The two of them fell in to this pattern of him always initiating sex *particularly* by turning any bit of affection into a sex session, or making it clear that he hopes it will turn into a session of sex. This pattern is exceptionally easy to fall into, especially for younger folks, due to cultural memes that reinforce the notion that the guy ASKS for sex and the girl GIVES it to him (if I could destroy one cultural expectation, this would top the list of candidates).
*This has the end effect of making any kind of touch, contact, whatever perceived as a request for sex.* Even if the guy wasn't actually asking for sex.
THAT is how you wind up with one person perceiving requests for sex -- even if they only actually have sex every six months -- as "pressure." I mean, the both of you can be laying in bed at this point, doing NOTHING, and she can be feeling that it's pressure right there to be having sex. This is very difficult to deal with, from BOTH ends of the issue.
At THAT point, there's probably little that can be done, as the pressure will *feel* continuous to her -- and she'll resent that. And of course he'll resent on the other end, exactly how LW describes. Getting past this requires a lot of heart to heart talk, the exact sort ANY couple, even in healthier circumstances, have a lot of trouble with.
Time to cut the losses, I think.
I don't understand that at all, actually. Can he really know that the used batteries come from vibrator use? And if she masturbates frequently, why doesn't he start by trying to be in the same room with her while that happens? If she won't touch him when she's clearly horny, then he's right to diagnose that she's not attracted to him.
The result is the same -- divorce -- but they can get there faster, and move on to better matches for both of them, if they don't waste time trying to fix her (perfectly active) libido.
Now you're just being a pedant. He established a thesis and gave examples as to why he presented it. Furthermore, he gave additional examples as to the effort he's putting into sex in his marriage: weekend get-aways, pounding the gym to look good for her, long emotional talks, shopping for costume and props to spice it up.
You'r reading as him being effortless and whiny about the length of the sessions is a poor one and now you're grasping because you know it is. Get over it.
Clear case of DTMFA.
Everyone is speculating about things that are not explicitly spelled out in the letter (part of what makes SLLOTD fun, in my opinion). If it is the case that she started putting in these sex requirements as a way to keep them from having sex often, then he deserves our sympathy - and yes that is a possiblity. However, it's also possible that she has always been like this (since he does say "sex always involves"), and he just stopped being okay with that, which has contributed to the drop-off in their sex life - that is also a possibility, and one that would make it unfair to put all the blame on her.
And if having a different opinion on this letter entitles me to a bag of "get fucked", then I will be checking the mail daily until it arrives.
I really don't see where in C(AI)F's letter you get the impression he doesn't like foreplay. The specific example he gives was bad because it was 1:30am and he had been up since 6am the previous day. As for the length of time, it's not like he protested against it, since he went through with it, but he's offering it as a possible reason why she doesn't want to have sex.
Why jumping to the conclusion he doesn't like foreplay?
Of course, we only have his side on this issue, etc. But considering they've had serious conversations (tears, etc.) about it, if the problem were him not liking foreplay, shouldn't this have come up already? Besides, if vibrators will do the job, is foreplay here really the big issue?
No -- the more likely solution is that we're simply dealing with yet another case of mismatched libidos.
You can't get the whore out of yourself so don't scribe about how you want to be soooo good.
Bird got to fly.
I also think there is a strong likelihood of some hormonal imbalance or due to birth control pills. Both of which can also lead to depression, amplifying the problem for this woman.
But in the end it is up to her to figure this problem out if she wants to be/stay in that marriage.
I honestly don't think it'd work out any better for the guy if he stays in the marriage... she might try for a little while, but until she gets a wake-up call in the form of a divorce she's not going to try to fix her issues regarding sex.
It seems to me the LW is simply saying this may be the reason why she doesn't want sex. I don't read in his prose this subtext of 'foreplay isn't interesting' or 'showering before sex' is bad; from what he says, he does it willingly (the one time he says he was annoyed was the 1:30am case).
Also, the idea that she's a postponer (better tomorrow than today) is apparently not based on sex, but on her behavior in other moments and about other things. Of course, we only have his opinion; but that's true for any letter.
So: he has a woman who, for other reasons, he thinks is a postponer. He notices she doesn't really want much sex with him. He wonders if it's because of her tendency to postpone. He looks at the sex scene and wonders what things in it might make her feel like postponing, and selects the ones that take more time or effort as possibilities.
You're deducing from this that he is the one who is turned off by the foreplay and shower, while I sincerely don't see it in the text (I've re-read it three times now). As far as I can see, he simply chose the more time-consuming parts of their lovemaking because the less time-consuming parts would be less plausible as reasons why a postponer would want to postpone sex.
I'm not necessarily excluding the possibility that he doesn't like foreplay and finds showering a hassle or wants sex to always last less than fifteen minutes. I just don't see in the letter that this is indeed the case.
You and Kim make a lot of sense to me. Other posters who suggested all the rules and extended foreplay she set up means she finds sex dirty just don't strike me right.... In my experience, if a woman finds sex "dirty," somebody going down on her is the LAST thing she'd want. Heck, even women who enjoy sex (myself included) still find a partner going down on them a little unsettling.
It sounds more like... thats just how she likes to roll.
To me, the vibrator suggests that this isn't at all about mismatched libidos, but that she's simply not attracted to him. The showering every time bit could be about creating obstacles, sure, but it could also be that she hates his scent/taste. I doubt it's a germ hangup, though, just cuz of the sex toy thing... but maybe I'm wrong.
If she needs nearly an hour of foreplay for sex, so be it. But being a GGG partner should mean that sex should also sometimes be for his sake, which means she should be willing to get him off to keep him content with quickies, hand jobs, blowjobs, etc. until she wants her one hour session. But, again, it seems to me that she just doesn't want to fuck him and doesn't care about his sexual well-being, which means he should move on and spare himself further rejection.
Was he was selfish in his frustration with foreplay or oral sex.? Hmmm... I do wonder why he never mentions, amidst all his attempts, why they never included the vibrator in the their sex life... I wish I could ask him that.
An 11-day period one time only is rare and should be cause for concern and a trip to the gyno. A loss of libido that pronounced, if unwanted, would likewise be grounds for, at the very least, discussion.
She sets down conditions that are diffcult to mee; only initiates sex when she's either desperate, drunk, horny-beyond-belief, or knows he won't be able to follow through and she can get points for being in the mood; feels pressured by him; cries when he tries to bring the topic up for discussion; apparently masturbates frequently alone.
She's just not that into him.
One of the unspoken rules of marriage is that you get to have sex with your She lied to him to get him to marry her, then reverted to her true form as an abusive monster as soon as she got a ring.
Sure, sex seems to be the issue, but the real issue is that neither partner can be truly honest with each other, let alone fucking communicate.
My first thought upon reading about the incriminating pile of batteries was that for me, the more orgasms I give myself, the more of the real deal penetrative sex I want. Sadly, that does not seem to be the case here.
I don't think this is a case of the mismatched libidos. It sounds as though she is not sexually attracted to him. That might be the weight gain (40 lbs and more to lose?) or it could be that she never was. It could be that she thinks that their relationship is really great except for this minor issue that she really doesn't want to have sex with him.
How is it that they have a really great relationship other wise? She rejects him, withholds sex for more than a year, emotionally manipulates him, and has the longest period on record that coincides exactly with what he planned as the getaway (from what?) sex vacation. That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for otherwise.
He's established that he's getting her off (every time, before penetration), she's not telling him what he can do differently. Whether they are or aren't using the vibe in their once-every-six-months-sex seems unimportant.
But taking the vibrator out (and making sure it has fresh batteries) takes some effort and planning and making time, too. No matter how much easier it is than interacting with another person, it is not something that can done in three spare minutes.
She appears to have some serious hangups or insecurities, and find bodies shameful or disgusting. But she still has a working libido.
Remember that she wants the lights out and they both need to have showered separately.
His showering is to make sure he smells "better" to her, so he is either stinky, or she doesn't find his normal scent appealing; her showing is because she is self-conscious and uncomfortable with her own body and knows that he will be going down on her.
FWIW, I prefer to do my showering alone, and I have a high libido.
If you are right and her libido is healthy and she's just not into him sexually for whatever reason, then I'll bet you anything she is fucking other men.
I know more than a few women who are/were in this exact situation - feelings for hubby died but stayed married for convenience/security - and every one of them is/was having an affair.
@69: I was just going to tell the lw that he might not be getting her off. Maybe she's just faking. It's happened before.
@71, yes, that. She also gets to work only part time. She probably feels like she 'needs' him.
@72, a real possibility, but I don't think it changes the outcome. If she hasn't been able to tell him that he's not getting her off, or has been faking it, for 8 years, he needs to get out.
C'mon, you can do it. Read it again. It's in there. (Answer: he _has_ tried to talk to her. She shuts him down.)
sorry , I meant 61
And as to why she insists on the showers - my guess is that he probably is just not attractive to her, and isn't making much of an effort to figure out why. Yeah, the weight was probably part of it, but maybe he's got rank, unkempt patches of hair and doesn't see any reason to trim them, maybe he's got a really offensive natural odor (some people's chemistry just does not mix), maybe his personal hygiene is just a little questionable. I have to take exception to the people who've said that when you're really attracted to someone, you don't care how they smell - for me, it's kind of the other way around. I'm not attracted to someone if I don't like how they smell. At a very base level, there are some people whose skin just does not smell good. I realize that I have a nose like a bloodhound, and that's not usual, but I'm not alone in this regard. It bugs the hell out of me if my partners don't get their teeth cleaned regularly, for instance.
Also, I want to second what @55 said.
Hell, all else being equal, I prefer freshly showered sex when I can get it, too. That doesn't mean my wife stinks.
Try to stick to the details that are actually in the letter. Once you start extrapolating, you can turn the letter writer into as ugly a straw man as you please, but that doesn't mean the comments based on it are going to do the letter writer a damned bit of good.
Now, if even after meeting these demands the wife isn't into sex, then that is a legitimate problem. But it sounds like this guy won't meet her halfway and that, as a result, she has decided she won't accommodate him either.
Men often forget that for women, plain missionary sex isn't that exciting. Women rarely come, if ever, from that. If you aren't willing to make it feel nice for her with foreplay, oral, toys, kink, whatever she needs, then why should she be inclined to put on a sexy outfit just so that you can thrust in her a few times, come, roll over and fall asleep?
What a goddamned douche bag!
I think this douche needs to figure out that his wife wants to get off just as much as he does. SHe's just one step ahead of him in that she's given up on him and he hasn't quite given up on her yet. If washing your dick and getting her off is a huge production, and if you're hounding the poor woman about it to the point where it's the subject of every gift you give her, no wonder she'd rather fuck a vibrator.
One thing that hasn't been touched on yet (no pun intended) - the extended period of pre-penetration activities is a fairly long period of time where things can go south, ending the session early. I'd be interested in how many times CAIF has his take off aborted, so to speak.
Also, am I the only one to note that the foreplay as described is one-sided, and that she's taken mutual masturbation, blowjobs, and handjobs off the table? To me, that screams out that she's not interested in him. She's not totally repulsed by him, but she's not interested enough to take an active role. That would mean acknowledging his presence and his needs, and investing time and effort in his pleasure and happiness.
@71 - Seandr, you're a cynical son of a bitch. Which isn't to say that you're wrong, not hardly.
The science on this subject would agree with you - enjoying your partner's smell is a requirement for female sexual attraction, not a result of it.
One of the most interesting studies shows that women prefer the scent of men who's genetic makeup (MHC, specifically) is most different from their own. They had women sniff shirts that men wore for a weekend, and women tended to be attracted to the BO of guys with different makeups and revolted by the BO of guys with similar makeups. Turns out a guy's armpit can smell like death to one woman and love musk to another.
It's also been shown that women are more likely to cheat on hubby if his MHC is similar to her own.
P.S. Guys - if your woman always thinks you smell bad, even when you just got out of the shower, there is likely nothing you can do about it, so DTMFA.
Forget showers, length of time, amount of effort, he's a douche, she is wrong blah blah blah.
This is what stood out for me once I got rid of extraneous fillers and presuming the guy is telling the truth:
1. She doesn't want to talk about it.
It's not about who is right or wrong, it's whether or not both parties want to fix a problem which counts. Apportioning blame will not solve the problem. Sounds like he wants to fix it.
"But taking the vibrator out (and making sure it has fresh batteries) takes some effort and planning and making time, too. No matter how much easier it is than interacting with another person, it is not something that can done in three spare minutes."
It most certainly can be done in "three spare minutes".Really, how long does it take to grab a vibrator from the bedside table? I would say 10 seconds max.... tad bit longer if it's buried under something. Some women can come very quickly, especially with a vibrator.
Read, the letter through again, and you will notice that he never indicates that he dislikes showers/foreplay/taking the time. In fact, he has only bemoans this process once, when it came at 1:30 before work. He cites those things as examples of why she may think sex is a hassle. (She's a procrastinator, likes things the easy way, so the boxes she needs checked to sleep with him present obstacles for *her*).
There are a lot of asshole guys out there who may scoff at showers, extensive foreplay, or taking steps that exclusively help his partner get there. This isn't one of those guys; from the information we have, he's one of the good ones.
Expecting a reasonable amount of sex is part of being married - if you don't want sex, don't embark on a lifelong sexual relationship.
Eight Years!?! I wouldn't be able to tolerate that for eight months (with the exception of serious health issues).
This has to be the funniest thing I've read on SLOG all day. You're really got a handle on the male mind! You're right, here's what we're really thinking before sex:
"Oh no, here we go again. First, she'll want to 69, then it's doggy style while I slap her ass like some brute, then it's cowgirl, then reverse cowgirl where at least I can close my eyes so I don't have to watch. Then cowgirl again, then she deep throats me (gagging sounds, spit everywhere, ew!) while I work the Hitachi on her, and finally I make a sticky mess all over her face and try not to gag as she licks it off her lips (ew!!).
Just once I'd like her to hold me and gaze into my eyes while she makes sweet gentle love to me missionary style."
Bottom line, C(AI)F seems like a good guy who has tried absolutely everything he can to keep his marriage going and remain faithful to his wife. But she is selfish and manipulative and not worth the effort.
She's just not that into you. She probably never was, but thought she could be. I bet the pre-marital sexy times was because she was trying to make you happy. She's long since stopped trying.
1. Sex once every six months.
2. He has to go down on her; she has never and will never do that to him.
3. Her periods last at least 11 days.