There's Something Happening Here, Cont.


I've been having a difficult holiday season this year, Dan. Just lost a good friend (who used to comment here on Slog, BTW, "memorex" - I miss you, D), I'm broke, I'm blue. But I saw the story about the sailors this morning & reposted it; to see this collection of love stories & people cheering..well. It doesn't make everything better, but right now I'm smiling.

Happy Christmas, Dan.
Oh, Eva - I'm sorry for your loss. I hope things turn around for you soon.
In my usual OCD way I must point out that Kerry Park's more top of Queen Anne Hill than halfway up. Back on topic, my goodness those Canadians are so modest they even play their flash-mob music at a moderate volume.
Merry Christmas, Eva. And about the flash mob video - the happiest part to me was the end, when the extended, when the community surrounds those two guys and envelopes them with their love and support.
Thanks Dan. I just saw that video w/ the flash mob & people hugging after &..I seem to have something caught in my eye. In both eyes. *snurfle*

Happy Christmas Sloggers. You may be across the country from me, but some days, you inspire me.
Aw now dang it... I hate tearing up at work...

Very great post Dan, thank you.
Happy holidays, Skyweaver. :)

& "Memorex" - another Dan - you are loved & missed, dear.

OK, gonna let someone else have a turn now.
Eva, my condolences; I remember "memorex".

That was a touching video. Anytime I see someone propose, the voice in my head yells, "no!! run away!!" But I hope good things for the couples in general and this one in particular.
But golly, that was a lot of work.
Maybe love does conquer all. Hate is clearly losing.
Eva, I am sorry to hear you lost your friend, our commenter memorex. I liked his comments. This won my heart:
I tried to like Pavement. I tried really hard. But after my 30th time through Slanted and Enchanted I came to the realization that it just wasn't going to happen. If only Malkmus could sing. And write intelligible lyrics. And they could actually play their instruments.…
If that video was any sweeter, my teeth would fall out. As it is, I seem to have a serious case of lacrimation.

So this is how morality dies... with thunderous applause. ...
Further to make up for going off topic before: to no brouhaha whatsoever, a lesbian's Navy commanding officer designated her and her girlfriend for the traditional "first kiss" when their ship returned from 80 days at sea. (Yes, as Fran Lebowitz said, hilarious that gay rights would focus on getting us into the most confining of institutions, marriage and the military. But as she also said, if that's what people want to do with their lives we should be free to.)…
Don't know if anyone saw this yet, but the prez sent a congrats letter to one of the first gay couples to marry in NY:…
I've been crying off and on for the past two days, but this is the first time I was smiling as I was crying.
The best part of that proposal was how so many people were so happy for the couple. I hope they make it.
Deviancy; a monster of so frightful mien,
As to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen too oft, familiar with the face,
we first endure, then pity, then embrace...
The culture shifted quite some time ago. It's just taken a while for the mouth-breathing troglodytes out there to notice.

Look why my 80 year-old career Army war veteran father has a "Repeal DADT" sticker on his car next to his Army Ranger sticker— well, that shit has moved on.
I think people who are generally suspicious of the US Military (and for some pretty good reasons, I might add), might miss out on the important historical context of gays in the military and the end of DADT.

The United States has very few truely national institutions compared to a lot of other countries, so the military takes on a outsized influence when it comes to the Federal government, since it's one of the few federal institutions that exists in every state.

Truman's integration of the military in the late 40s is one of the starting points of the civil rights movement. Not because it's necessarily a great thing that black people could now fight in the army, but because it was a huge example of integration that reached across the entire country, including places in the South that had never seen any integration in action.

I think this same sort of thing is already in effect with the repeal of DADT.
I was in this flash mob and I am so proud that it has caught all of your attention. It was such an amazing moment for everyone, especially for my co-worker and his now-fiance!
Thank you for all of your support!
Much love from Canada,
They applauded Hitler, too.
And his goose stepping henchmen.

Not at first.
No. Not in the beginning.
But they learned to applaud. To cheer.
Folks can be indoctrinated to accept pretty much anything.
What is it about people making willing idiots of themselves for the sake of a single question that always makes me tear up? REFUSING TO CRY AT WORK!


It's OK, little troll. Someday, you too will find someone who loves you! Well, then again, probably not with that attitude.
@1, and @10, I remember memorex, and I remember that comment (and I agree). I'm very sorry for your loss, which is obviously greater than ours, but ours too, because in a strange way we are a sort of family here. I remember Elswinger, too. Rest in peace, me boyos. We grieve for you, and with you, Eva.

And Dan, we have always been here, waiting with you (waiting for the troglodytes to die out). These are lovely stories.

the painfully crappy dancing is no surprise
but who knew canuck chicks were so hefty?
Sweet marriage proposal.
Wow, little 24,
again afraid of Hitler at every kiss
and every heart in love?

Look at baby Jesus: Hitler!
Look at Santa Claus: Hitler!
Look at "Love is..." cartoons: Hitler!
Look at flowers in spring: Hitler!
Look at children playing: Hitler!
Look at people in love: Hitler!

Hitler is everywhere.
Everything has a little mustache.
Just wait a little longer. When you'll have a son,
the little mustache will be there.
It always is.
Because, in the end,
everything is Hitler.

It's all conditioning, in the end, isn't it?
Merry Hitlermas,
and a Hitlery New Year!
That the culture has shifted and is shifting is becoming more and more obvious. The momentum has accumulated, so that acceptance -- at least legal acceptance -- is now probably unavoidable. Whether hearts and minds will be changed accordingly is a different matter.

But I have this faith in people, and in their capacity to make right choices eventually (after having made all the wrong ones first, of course...). Dan can see and feel it happening in his lifetime. Dan's son will see even more of it during his own lifetime. And we will get to a time at which people will wonder what all the fuss was about. If even conservatives now agree it was a good thing to get rid of segregation (so that the civil rights movement was ultimately OK), future conservatives will agree with marriage equality as a matter of course, and people in general will wonder how come the opposite was ever believed to make sense.
Mods, please registereds-only this thread. This is a beautiful story of love and acceptance, and let's not spoil it with bickering and derision. Ankylosaur, stop tail-clubbing Alleged.
Mazel tov to all the happy couples, and my condolences to memorex.
A few days ago, my husband and I were watching the episode of 30 Rock where Liz accidentally outs her young cousin Randy and hijinks ensue. At the end of the episode, he ends up in the crowd at the Today Show with a guy in a Navy uniform that he's just met, and he says "Jeremy is quitting the Navy and we're going to get married in Massachusetts!" And I turned to my husband and said, "This episode is only a couple of years old, but now they don't have to do either one of those things. That's so nice." And it made me happy, much as reading these things made me happy.
A culture decides to stop placing impediments before two people who want to live with and love each other... to instead offer that couple the same support and legal protections that other couples have always enjoyed... and that, somehow, is the moral equivalent of exterminating the Jews of Europe.

Thanks for opening our eyes, troll.
I agree with venom lash. Why mar this beautiful & solemn post with nasty troll food. Condolences to friends & family of Dan ( memorex), and thank you Dan savage for this lovely post.
@28, @31: I've turned off unregistered comments. Maybe it's elitist of me, but 95% of them are total garbage. And in the rare event that the unregistered comment has useful, non-troll analysis, the poster usually registers and reposts so that s/he can respond to the discussion.

On topic, I think one of the causes of this sea of change is that the uninvolved have seen just how hate-filled the homophobes were. Back in the 80s the 'phobes could get away with saying something like "I just think it's wrong" and others would smile and nod, but these days they aren't let off the hook so easily. And when pressed, the 'phobes inevitably retreat to hatred and religion, which disgusts the uninvolved.

The 'phobes know this, of course. Why do you think they're so desperate to keep the Prop 8 courtroom tapes sealed? Their own raging bigotry has become one of the greatest aids to the progression of gay rights.
This October I watched a college friend commit his life to the man of his dreams in a park a in Jacksonville,Fl. While hardly a bastion of progressive attitudes, most everyone in the busy park clapped when they kissed. The times,they are a'changin' indeed.
I cry at most weddings, but gay weddings and engagements strike me as the most romantic. I guess it's because every one is an example of love overcoming great obstacles, and who can resist that? Amazingly, some people do; I guess they're blinded by fear and prejudice. For the rest of us, these happy endings remind us of our most cherished love stories -- they raise us all up and give us hope. They symbolize perhaps the most basic piece of wisdom: that love is the greatest good.

Rest in peace, memorex. I'm glad to have shared this strange space with you for a while.
Goddammit, why's it so dusty in here?
These pop-up chapels intrigue me. Now I'm imagining popping them up across the street from, e.g., Westboro Baptist Church protests.
As I think I might have mentioned, I have the distinct honor of working closely with a number of recent, young vets back from the Middle East, at a large state University. Very tough men and women, for the most part. Many of them have killed, most if not all have lost friends and acquaintances. All but one coming through there were excited to see DADT go away. All but one of them would be thrilled to see DOMA go away. The majority of us in the Them, Dan, not only want for everyone in your Us to be happy, to be able to serve and to marry, but see it as a foregone conclusion.

Morality has already won. Love and affection have already won. More than anything I really just think it's a matter of outliving the hidebound bigots still in power. It's the old among us the GOP politicians are trying to cater to; no one of import under 35 gives a damn about sexuality. Oh, there will always be a few bigots. But in another 10 years, they're all going to be looked at the way the vast majority of people look at Fred Phelps and his ilk.
I'm not much of a sentimentalist, but damn if my heart-strings aren't twanging.

It is truly lovely see the steady spread of equality.
eeeeeekkk. I always cry at proposals. Sweeeeeeeeet!

We married in MA back in 2004 on our 18th anniversary (so yes, a total of 25 years now) - and it was the first time either one of us had friends and family say to us, in large numbers no less, that they were happy we were together. I remember feeling totally overwhelmed by the support and genuine well-wishes that came our way. It was unexpected, it was unique in our experience. This after years of commitment in the face of outright opposition and some truly nasty behavior on the part of some of my relatives.

But then it struck me - why should I be so surprised, overwhelmed, taken aback by messages of support? My hetero peers expect the same **as a matter of course.**

I am grateful for all these beautiful events posted, Dan. But I will admit, no small part of the tears of joy for the sweetness I've shed this evening are also sadness for the years of non-validation endured. I never thought I would see this day come.
This day came, OldFiddler, because you came out and endured—braved—those years of non-validation. Those boys in that video wouldn't be surrounded by that loving mob if it weren't for men like you and your partner, and all the others, who came out and lived with integrity at a time when the costs, and the hostility, were so much greater.

Thank you for all you did to make this day come.
Impediments before two people
who want to live with and Love! each other?
That's Terrible!
What are those impediments?
Oh, that's right.
There aren't any.....
Cause we don't just want to live with and Love! each other.
We want society to subsidize us for living with each other.
Isn't that right, Danny?

You make an interesting connection, Danny.
But not just Jews.
Did you know Hitler killed homosexuals?
Bad Bad Hitler...
How many?
5, maybe 15 thousand homosexuals.

Fifteen Thousand!

That's Terrible!

What percentage of sexually active homosexuals give each other AIDS, Danny?
Why is that?
How many of them will die from the AIDS some homosexual gave them?

Did you know that American Homosexuals kill as many homosexuals in one year as Hitler did in the entire Holocaust?

How do you feel about that, Danny?

Is it worth a post?

Is it as important as a cheerleader who didn't actually get expelled for kissing in the hallway?

'Love' ?

Really Danny?

'Love' ?

Are you aware of even one single state, county, city, village that guarantees any heterosexual the right to marry whom they 'Love' ?

There you go again, Danny.

Demanding special rights and privilege for homosexuals....
Plenty to Celebrate, no doubt.

But when will this culture decide to stop placing impediments before three people who want to live with and love each other... to instead offer that trio the same support and legal protections that other couples have always enjoyed.....

Danny, will you support the Right of Polyamorous Americans to marry the people they love?

Danny, did you know That Abraham Lincoln said that people who deny marriage equality to others do not deserve it themselves.

Do you deserve marriage equality,Danny?

"Those who deny marriage equality to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it." A.Lincoln
@41 OldFiddler,

Everyone should be inundated with messages of support for their fledgling marriages. After 25 years together you know how difficult, and effortlessly breathless, marriage can be. We are closing in on 25 years in 2012, and a lot has changed, but being together as family remains constant. I was damn proud of our mayor marrying couples just after midnight when marriage equality was made law (here in MA). So, to carry it further, I'm damn proud of you and us and everyone that knows love is universal when given the chance.

I wonder how much apoplexy the picture caused in the Perry, Bachman, and Santorum campaign headquarters? The thought of people dropping to the floor, foaming in the mouth, all catatonic in these campaigns warms the cockles of my heart
I don't understand how there are people in this world who can watch that video and be think that this is somehow an abomination. Admittedly, it was a dorky (but cute!) proposal that brought me to tears just like any other proposal video would. Witnessing this kind of display of love is heartwarming and beautiful. I was so touched and yet so heartbroken that there are people in this world that continue to condemn love.
Curiously, I am true to my principles. Having long maintained the Rousseau-like stance of defending "our" right to the same expressions of questionable taste in which "they" indulged all the time, however distasteful I might find any particular example, I remain dry-eyed and surprisingly do not adjudicate the taste portion of the programme any differently. Gee, who knew? I thought myself more hypocritical.

To the couple, all the best, and may they always have as much (or more) genuine support as in this instance they have apparent support. In the spirit of the occasion, I'll not look too closely at the But and Not sentences.
Sorry for the threadjacking: Just wanted to say thank you for everyone who expressed their condolences about Memorex. I let his wife know he was missed here, too. It was one of the most surprising moments of our friendship when he wrote me to say - hey, I see you postin' on Slog, I'm on Slog. Ah. Miss him.
& to Old Fiddler @ 41: second the thanks, for going first, for not hiding your love away, for making it a little easier for those of us comin' after you. I've been able to be out as a bi woman since I figured out that's what I was @ 19, largely because of those who went before me & wouldn't stay in the closet. I was a bridesmaid in the wedding of 2 friends of mine, gay guys, about 3 years ago. In a church & everything. It made my heart swell with joy to see them at the altar, hand in hand.

I look forward to the day when these expressions of love & joy are as accepted & legally recognized as those of heterosexual couples are.
What I like (among many other things) is at the end all the people who were in the audience spontaneously hugging their friends and each other. That's how strong the love was.
Most of "us" have always supported your "us". That's why when your "us" got mad at "us" for trying to make IGBP videos, it was heartbreaking. "Us" boring straight people want you to be recognized and loved the same as we are and I'm glad that videos and stories like this make it out there, so you can see how many of "us" there really are.
@54: I supported the inclusion of IGB videos by straight people -- I was the one posting them. And I told people who didn't think they should be up to fuck off. Just for the record.
Maaaan, that troll has way too much time on his/her hands. I know I don't have the time to froth at the mouth on forums about stuff I don't agree with. Trolls aside, this video is absolutely adorable. The way the newly-engaged couple embraces at the end! It's so nice to see such a sweet image, especially when it represents so much progress.
Dan, I just want to build on your post. My husband and I were married in New York a few weeks ago. We have received an overwhelmingly positive and surprising response from unexpected places -- distant cousins by marriage, shopkeepers, neighbors, conservative republican coworkers, etc. People are truly happy for us (the way we have been for couples of all varieties over the years). We were included in the year-end powerpoint that my company's CEO presents each year at the holiday party. It includes pictures of babies born and couples wed in the last year. We were the first, and only, same-sex couple ever included in this presentation, and when our picture came up, my coworkers and their spouses cheered, and afterward the CEO made a point of telling me what a pleasure it was for him to show that picture. This is a wall-street financial-services company. This reaction would have been unimaginable not so long ago.
Marriage equality hasn't come to my state yet, so three years ago, my husband and I "eloped" to Canada. Before the elopement, however, we had a commitment ceremony here at home. There were nearly 90 people present, and at least 2/3 of them were straight. The oldest of those was my father, who was then 80. Probably a third of the guests were under 21, and the youngest of those was five.

And when we kissed, there was lots of applause.

Lol @ some stupid little anon invoking Godwin's law to justify their homophobia when gays were one of the groups the Nazis targeted.

Though on that note, is there any way to ban IPs or are we forced to just put up with all anonymous users? That weird little troll is usually just entertaining but #44 actually seems to be advocating genocide...
Anyway, these are all really sweet. I'm having kind of a meh holiday this year so thanks for the good cheer, Dan!

Also, both of the women in the military couple are really hot, I'm jealous!
Once we realize that human sex isn't primarily about reproduction, but about love (or like), there's nothing to divide LGBT folk from straight folk (or straight breeders from non-breeders, for that matter). You're either pro-love or anti-love. Who/how we love is a non-issue. Thanks, Dan, for articulating that message so well for so long.

"advocating genocide"?

oh you poor dear. let us help you out.

The Troll isn't advocating genocide.

The Troll is pointing out that American homosexuals kill more homosexuals in a year than Hitler did in the whole Holocaust, you pathetic witless sack of shit moron.

It's what they call 'irony'.....

Let's fix that for you-

Once we realize that humanist sex isn't primarily about reproduction, or even about love (or like), but- let's not kid ourselves, raw lust, there's nothing to divide LGBT folk from straight folk (or straight breeders from non-breeders, for that matter) or LGBT folk from pedophiles and goat fuckers. Who/how/what/what hole(s)/how old we fuck is a non-issue. If it feels good, Do It! Fuck the consequences, as well; as it were...
Thanks, Dan, for articulating that message so well for so long.
My friend sent me this link today hoping it would help heal the pain our family is suffering. I had already seen the youtube video and had shared it on my facebook wall. I had already seen the story about the gay couple getting the first kiss when the naval ship arrived in port and cheered out loud. I celebrated these wonderful stories. My husband and I went to heard Dan Savage speak at the University of Windsor because we are gay allies and most importantly we are the parents of a son who is gay. Today we needed to be reminded that it gets better because last night my beautiful son was called a faggot and had a beer bottle smashed in his face by some stupid drunk girl in a club. A homecoming celebration ruined forever. In time his wounds will heal but what about his soul?
Mama.k - I am so sad to read your story. I feel rage and anger that people are still treated this way, though I know it still happens more often than I care to imagine - and I know that rage and anger won't help anything. I hope that you and you're family have many more times to celebrate upcoming 'wonderful stories' in you're own life to help heal your souls. My love is with you, be it even from a stranger.
Oh mama.k @ 64, I'm sorry for you & your son & your family. I wish the world was already at the place it needs to be, where your son can have a drink in a bar without being assaulted. Sooner rather than later, we'll be there.

I hope your boy is okay & knows how lucky he is to have a supportive momma like you.