Of course they cancelled. Arguing against marriage equality in downtown Seattle? They’re scared. They’ll be outnumbered. Tickets are sold out, which means they can’t pack the audience with trucked-in supporters. If it were in Bellevue, they could e-mail all the area’s mega-churches and get them to fill the auditorium.
I still don't think you should validate Hutcherson with having him on a debate anyway. The guy is mentally & physically ill. This is a power play by him. Fuck that guy.
I say ditch the debate and turn the whole thing into a roast of Ken Hutcherson, complete with a Ken Hutcherson-shaped pinata that is, of course, full of shit.
Get Andrew Sullivan. That old Oxford thing will kick right in, and any good debater SHOULD be able to argue both sides of anything, since whatever you personally believe you have to articulate your opponents' arguments to defeat them.
Hutcherson & Pidgeon! What utter fucking chickenshits! Jesus wouldn't slink away from a chance to witness to 850 sinners. Your behavior is not exactly strong in the Lord, Ken & Stephen!
Come on! Where's the can-do attitued? It'd be worth it to hit up every wealthy, homo-friendly benefactor with a checkbook designated for "giving" just to show up with a Meydenbauer contract (or better yet, get KeyArena or the Friggin' Tacoma Dome, if they want a big venue). Put it off a week or two if you have to, but corner those chickenshits. I'll donate.
@ 11, SB would be beholden to rules like "staying on topic" and "using the time allotted," which would be troublesome for him, judging from his SLOG comments indicate. God only knows how he'd handle having his ignorance dissected in a setting where he can't just run away.
Gotta say I'm not surprised and totally agree with @12; Hutch & Pidgeon clearly must have thought they'd be spewing their hate to a handful of heathens, and when the place "sold out" before they could even get their own congregants to sign up for tickets, they knew they'd be appearing in front of a largely hostile audience that wouldn't simply swallow their bigoted chum hook, line and sinker.
And of course, they also know there's no way "The Stranger" is going to fork out $10K OR make people pay to see the debate, especially in an Eastside venue where the homophobes will have a better chance of packing the house, so they turned their yellow tails and ran.
So much for the power of their convictions, and good riddance sez I...
Remember when C.R. Douglas backed out and nobody showed up on the pro-tunnel side for the Town Hall Tunnel Debate? But you all showed up and approved each other anyway? We could do that for this one, nobler cause and all.
Seattle could have its first livestreamed circle jerk of 2012 come January 18. If we all pull together we can make it happen.
What pussies. Just because Dan and Laurie were going to shred their logic, tear them to bits and laugh over the curled-up pieces in front of an audience is no reason for them to pull out like that.
Not a big enough venue? How small is this "internet" thing, anyway?
First Lutheran Church of West Seattle - Pastor Ron Marshall, I think. He was one of the folks not too excited about letting gay pastors with committed relationships serve in the Lutheran church. If he can't do it, I'm certain he'll have people to refer you to.
The top 10 anti-same-sex marriage arguments are easy to present no matter which side you're on. Here we go, kids!
1. It will destroy humanity! Yup! The Pope recently said so and he must know!
2. It will destroy marriage! Because, you see (ahem...) it will degrade the essence and sacredness of marriage. Why and how? Because, erm... It goes against Nature and natural law. Now, no more questions about natural law because, really, ew! butt-sex "is icky", to quote National Organization for Marriage spokesperson Dr. J. Morse. And no animals ever do it and don't confuse us with documented scientific observations, please!
3. Marriage is God-ordained and we need the government out of the marriage business! So no more courthouse-issued wedding licenses and no more federal benefits or retirement benefits for anyone thank you very kindly!
4. The family is holy and the cornerstone of society. Gay families are icky and actually have never existed. Never in history, nope. No wayyyyy!
5. Gay people don't really want marriage. So, please ignore the worldwide movement.
6. Gay people don't really exist and if they do, in far fewer numbers than they claim. So, will they please just shut up so we can all move on to something else?
7. We don't have to provide any evidence to the public or to the courts to support our claims because we don't need to! Such were the words of Prop8 lawyer Charles Cooper spoken in reply to a slack-jaw judge's request for proof.
8. If same-sex marriage becomes legal, our children will learn marriage and love are normal. Such knowledge would harm their innocent souls.
9. If same-sex marriage becomes legal, our children might think we're bigots. That would be... just too horrible. Therefore, we must ban it by all means, even by constitutional amendment.
10. If same-sex marriage becomes legal, heterosexuals will stop being attracted to each other and will stop making babies and the world will be doomed. Dooooomed! Do you hear me, doooooomed!
And there you have it in a nutshell. All the rational arguments against same-sex marriage are... irrational.
I was surprised when you invited Hutcherson in the first place. Stability doesn't seem to be his forte. They are probably trying to burn you guys or are just concerned about a vocal and majority unfriendly audience. Especially if this is going down with cameras.
I really think the devil's advocate idea is a good one. Maybe you can find an impartial lawyer type or someone in the pro-side to give it their all in opposition to gay marriage.
True dialectic debate is almost a lost art. No one should 'win' at a forum like this one. The case for each side should be made, questioned and intelligently discussed.
Hutch is such a fraud. If I had 10K laying around, I'd step forward and reserve the Meydebauer Center just to see him squirm. He just pulled that stunt to get out of it. Not even the Eastside - aside from Teh Jesus People - is all that worked up about gay marriage.
What about Bob Struble from the Knights of Columbus. He always likes going on TV to hate the gays. He's fucking crazy too! http://www.linkedin.com/in/struble98337
Ohhh, I know. We can get our esteemed attorney general to do it. He's a lawyer, he is opposed to equal rights, and he is trying to be our governor. Trifecta.
Even if they reserved the Meydenbauer for the event, what's to keep them from pulling the same stunt again, just to gouge Dan and the rest of The Stranger for $10k?
Just a thought... How big is that piece of shit church of Hutch's? If it's more than 850 seats, and he would agree to the already-agreed-upon parameters and to honor the outstanding tickets, and pay for the internet hook-up, why not have it there?
What about Gallagher?! He's conservative as shit, plus after the debates he can smash a bunch of fruit with a sledgehammer! What homohating pastor would do that?! Plus, he would definitely do it for way less than 10,000$.
We gotta get Loveschild up in this bitch. I'd nominate Alleged instead but I'm pretty sure his entire point and counterpoint addresses would just be lengthy streams of racial slurs interspersed with semi-intelligible screeching about "anal health" and "the gay disease."
I sent a strongly worded email to Antioch. And I second @50's suggestion. Get the 'new christian' who doesn't hate the gays, just thinks they sin like the rest of us. They represent Christians in this town better than anyone.
I think it was the live slogging that spooked KH. He realized that his biggoted words would be immortalized in a less than positive light, where he couldn't control the environment. So he had to either create a more supportive audience, or run away.
McKenna! McKenna! McKenna! It's an issue currently facing the state he's running to be governor of, and he's a successful attorney who shouldn't be afraid to defend his stance. Of course, that's a "should", and he'll back out with some "pre-existing schedule conflict" so he's not on the record against an issue most of the state he wants to run agrees with, but it'd make me honestly respect the guy if he did.
I actually find it encouraging that none of the bigots want to go on record trying to defend homophobia. It shows that the tide truly is turning, and they know they are wrong and in the minority.
I think it would have been great if he had managed to pack the venue with his supporters, since It's just possible that a few of them would be persuaded by the good guys, whose arguments they probably haven't heard before. At the very least they'd be forced to confront the fact that their pastor is an idiot who can't debate a ham sandwich.
So now it's up to Hutcherson to secure the better venue -- being at the original venue was agreed upon, then later wasn't acceptable. That's fine, but it's on him to find a new place and make it happen.
If he's unwilling to do that, then yes, it begins to look like fear and the cheap shot of possibly costing the Stranger some dough.
If that in fact is the case, then we need to keep pressing our case with the best messages we have.
Maybe you could get Wamu Theater to host it? They are quasi publically owned, and maybe they would give you a discount for something that will be such a huge public issue?
Really Dominic? Did you not try to find a bigger venue and fail? Then Hutch found one that you refused. Did he not tell you money would not be an issue, he would pay for it? Your readers are human beings and deserve the truth.
Wait...isn't this the same guy who was a key organizer of the "May Day for Marriage" rally at Safeco Field in 2004? He's fine with expressing his views in front of tens of thousands of people who agree with him, just not in front of 850 people who might not.
"No one wants to argue the anti-side, it seems, and people working with state senators say none of them will participate." Don't forget that you're asking people to join on short notice a debate in which the moderator, time, location, and other key details have already been arranged.
Alas, if only...
Or something.
Barring that, Senator Haugen?
But the fact they bailed shows how very weak their argument against allowing same sex marriage really is.
He thinks he's such hot shit, here's his big chance.
There's that asshat anonymous troll, too...why doesn't he "man-up"??
Starts with a C. Ends with what Robin was to Bruce Wayne.
C.ward ...
And of course, they also know there's no way "The Stranger" is going to fork out $10K OR make people pay to see the debate, especially in an Eastside venue where the homophobes will have a better chance of packing the house, so they turned their yellow tails and ran.
So much for the power of their convictions, and good riddance sez I...
Seattle could have its first livestreamed circle jerk of 2012 come January 18. If we all pull together we can make it happen.
Not a big enough venue? How small is this "internet" thing, anyway?
1. It will destroy humanity! Yup! The Pope recently said so and he must know!
2. It will destroy marriage! Because, you see (ahem...) it will degrade the essence and sacredness of marriage. Why and how? Because, erm... It goes against Nature and natural law. Now, no more questions about natural law because, really, ew! butt-sex "is icky", to quote National Organization for Marriage spokesperson Dr. J. Morse. And no animals ever do it and don't confuse us with documented scientific observations, please!
3. Marriage is God-ordained and we need the government out of the marriage business! So no more courthouse-issued wedding licenses and no more federal benefits or retirement benefits for anyone thank you very kindly!
4. The family is holy and the cornerstone of society. Gay families are icky and actually have never existed. Never in history, nope. No wayyyyy!
5. Gay people don't really want marriage. So, please ignore the worldwide movement.
6. Gay people don't really exist and if they do, in far fewer numbers than they claim. So, will they please just shut up so we can all move on to something else?
7. We don't have to provide any evidence to the public or to the courts to support our claims because we don't need to! Such were the words of Prop8 lawyer Charles Cooper spoken in reply to a slack-jaw judge's request for proof.
8. If same-sex marriage becomes legal, our children will learn marriage and love are normal. Such knowledge would harm their innocent souls.
9. If same-sex marriage becomes legal, our children might think we're bigots. That would be... just too horrible. Therefore, we must ban it by all means, even by constitutional amendment.
10. If same-sex marriage becomes legal, heterosexuals will stop being attracted to each other and will stop making babies and the world will be doomed. Dooooomed! Do you hear me, doooooomed!
And there you have it in a nutshell. All the rational arguments against same-sex marriage are... irrational.
I should think tehjesus would be right there with him to smite such trivialities.
I really think the devil's advocate idea is a good one. Maybe you can find an impartial lawyer type or someone in the pro-side to give it their all in opposition to gay marriage.
True dialectic debate is almost a lost art. No one should 'win' at a forum like this one. The case for each side should be made, questioned and intelligently discussed.
@49 for Best Suggestion Ever.
"Is it true that if Ken Hutcherson doesn't show up that Clay Jenkinson will portray him?"
http://www.sos.wa.gov/elections/initiati…
http://www.abchurch.org/about-us/staff/1…
(send email from this page)
Let 'em have it.
Oh, and get it in writing this time.
Gus @35, I know you're pretty happy about that last line already, so I'll just sneak in a quick stroke while the house lights are down.
Gay Mafiosos win again!
Save us Ken! The Homo Army marches on!
I love me much Hutch.
We gotta get Loveschild up in this bitch. I'd nominate Alleged instead but I'm pretty sure his entire point and counterpoint addresses would just be lengthy streams of racial slurs interspersed with semi-intelligible screeching about "anal health" and "the gay disease."
And here I'd just figured out how I was going to bring popcorn in.
Meh.
Totally. Goad him. If Santorum can't stand up to Dan Savage, how is he going to stand up to Russia?
(Get Babeland to donate a gift basket to him if he shows up and doesn't walk out before the debate ends.)
If he's unwilling to do that, then yes, it begins to look like fear and the cheap shot of possibly costing the Stranger some dough.
If that in fact is the case, then we need to keep pressing our case with the best messages we have.
What a cowardly concession.