Blogs May 22, 2012 at 8:53 am

Comments

1
Goldy: this was on KJR two days ago, hardly an original proposition. You seem to be willingly ignoring all the facts of the impacts, and your pissing match with the ST ed board and your emotional attachment to being too cool for labor is getting in the way of you seeing reality.
2
I'd be surprised if other facts that the ones you list turn out to have been in play back then. Seems legit.
3
In 1990, Goldy didn't live in Seattle. So he has no idea what changed. It might have something to do with going from a back woodsy enclave to a international port city. But we should kill that golden goose, and build a stupid stadium, so that Goldy's libuhral Eastside friends can pay $300 for an NBA ticket and sit on a bus two hours each way to go see it. No one has told Goldy that the "New Democrat" went out with the 90s and was a total failure, and blue collar jobs are the only growing sector in our recession/depression. But fuck blue collars, they stink, fuck the unions, and fuck anyone who thinks that dirty work should be in our plush first world, because we have lattes and our of work 1099er techies who can blog for spare change; or shill for a little bit more if the rich guy is the the enemy-of-my-imaginary enemy. Fucking unbelievable. And yeah, that was a fucking semicolon. Bite me.
4
shit - "than" not "that". Have I had a stroke or something?
5
It's a known fact that people and editorial boards are not allowed to change their opinions. Furthermore, it is completely fair to compare the opinions of two editorial boards, separated by such time lapses, that are made up of completely different people and operate under different ownership, simply because they use the same brand.
6
Let's not build a brand new stadium and instead fix up any of the multiple stadiums we already have.
7
@1: I'm as close to a labor shill as you'll find in the local media these days. I accept that there is a question over freight mobility in the area, and it's possible impact on the port, and have repeatedly said that this should be a factor in deciding whether to proceed. But I've yet to be convinced.

@3: I moved out here in November of 1991. Are you trying to tell me that we didn't have a bustling working port back then.... that the maritime industry sprung up over the past 20 years?
8
@7: I'm telling you that you were unaware of it or didin't care back then, and don't care now.
9
pretty funny using an editorial from 1990

all i have to say is: any idiot who has played sim city 4 knows its traffic suicide to put 3 stadiums next to each other
10
@ 5, besides all that, Seattle now has the benefit of hindsight, having been through the new stadium rigamarole twice and having seen the Sonics fly the coop. It would be just as acceptable for them to change their tune if the ownership and editorial board were comprised of exactly the same people.

@ 9, the nice thing is that the NFL, NBA and MLB seasons all overlap only in October, and in the case of baseball, it's only for the teams that made the postseason. In fact, I believe the NBA full season only gets underway around the time MLB's progressed all the way to the World Series, so the chances of games happening at all three arenas are pretty much zero. (Now, if you get an NHL team, there's a bit more overlap, but it's still only when baseball is in the postseason.)
11
@9 works fine when you remove all roads and place subways under it or monorails next to it. Just make sure you go out about 4 blocks.
12
It's is a cold day in hell when the Seattle Times is taking labors side of an issue and Goldy won't give the time of day. Oh, wait...
13
Goldy:

You write:

Maritime businesses have some legitimate concerns about freight mobility, but there have long been plans in place but never delivered to address these concerns. To borrow some words, "the need remains for a joint city and county effort - with state involvement."

Comments:

1: How 'bout actually addressing those concerns before addressing a new stadium? If there are broken promises, perhaps it is time for the city to "unbrake them," before it gets involved in making things worse.

2: "Legitimate concerns about freight mobility"? OK, what are they? (I know, but you should be telling me, not vice versa). I've read this phrase a couple of times in your SLOG; however, it seems to be your coy way of acknowledging these concerns without ever actually addressing them (All while patting yourself on the back as "pro-labor). OK, what about freight mobility? Cargo does go 24/7, despite what SLOG commentators think. What about ships waiting for cargo? Matson often does. What about multiple events in the same location with only two avenues handling traffic? I've yet to see you address and illuminate your audience as to what these "concerns" are and what the ramifications are if they aren't corrected.

And I still eagerly await some investigative journalism where you or anyone investigates who had purchased most of the land adjacent Occidental and how it will appreciate and why the taxpayer to fuel the appreciation and not the investor. That--I repeat--is the key to understanding why it is "SoDo or bust.."

14
Goldy, you don't have to go back 20 years. You can just recycle all the Sloggers comments that disregarded the maritime business and blue collar jobs while the tunnel referendum was being debated. Virtually no Slogger gave a damn about port and industrial jobs throughout that debate.
15
If you want to talk about changing opinions on arenas, let's look at Goldy himself.

Goldy on Horse's Ass, 6/5/06:

"...The billionaire owners of the Sonics want taxpayers to pony up a couple hundred million dollars so that they can build a new arena with even more luxury boxes.

Fuck that."

Now 6 years later, Goldy is in bed with a millionaire hedge fund manager from San Francisco who wants to use $200 million in taxpayer money. Talk about a flip flopper!

Or maybe Goldy isn't against the arena - he's just against anything the Seattle Times ed board supports. Talk about a bizarre obsession. No one in the entire state cares about what the Times ed board writes more than Goldy.

By the way, the owner of the Golden State Warriors - an investment guy like Hansen - today just proposed a new downtown San Francisco arena. Funded ENTIRELY by private money. Now that's the way to do it. Hansen's proposal looks even worse now. It's obvious that these arenas can be funded with just private money, and yet Hansen is trying to steal away public funds.
16
@10 There have been a few September Sundays when both the Mariners and Seahawks had home games. It turns into the predictable clusterfuck.

The solution in 1990 is the same as it is today: fix the goddam streets in SODO, Harbor Island, Spokane Street, etc., so that traffic at least has a chance to be routed effectively. A million orange barrels is not a solution.

Mass transit has targeted the Stadium District as a major destination. Two of the nation's longest interstate highways intersect at that same spot. It has been a transportation hub since transportation existed. Building a large, new arena anywhere else is silly. What infrastructure that doesn't already exist needs to be built anyhow.
17
@10 This arena is being proposed as an "events arena" meaning that, in addition to NBA and NHL (not likely), it will host "events" ie amplified crap or arena rock. The number "200" for events per year (40 or so games plus events) is being touted. That said, there is significant overlap with other stadiums in the area and competition as a venue with Key Arena, an arena that the city already owns outright. I repeat: why would the city build a venue that competes and marginalizes it's own property?
18
@15 The funding mechanism is only one side of the coin. A privately financed deal would only mean that the city has more bonding capacity *If* they chose to fix existing traffic problems in SoDo, let alone any new ones. What Goldy will never consider is that it may be geographically impossible to mitigate traffic with a new stadium. It may very well financially be above what resources will allow debt wise for the city.

Two other items under the rugz: The NHL is no longer a component of this deal. Zero, nada. Read the MOU. Hockey is already out. Hansen and McGinn and Dow to hockey fans: fuck you. There aren't enough of you to matter. The handpicked "stadium panel" said you needed both leagues. Now they can't even follow the recommendation of their own handpicked panel. Now THAT is pathetic.

Second, two thirds of the sports fans came in from outside of Seattle, yet the city will finance 95+% of it. Talk about a free ride for the Eastside. This should attract Goldy like a moth to flame.

But the real reason Goldy won't buck this is because (like the lefty green machine that got McGinn elected) he realizes that McGinn is a freakin idiot, but still benefits from his being in office .

19
"Oops. That editorial was written in 1990. My bad."

Goldy, you are not Jon Stewart. No, you are not.

"But it sure does provide a sharp contrast to the obsessive string of anti-arena editorials we've been seeing from the Seattle Times these days."

If you hate them so much why don't you just go throw poo at their windows and leave them off of The Stranger?

"So what's changed between now and then?"

1990 through 2012?
Gulf War I
The Internet
The dot-com bubble (and collapse).
The housing bubble (and collapse).
9-11
We invaded Afghanistan.
We invaded Iraq.
Gitmo.
We elected the first black POTUS.
How about Avatar? Do you remember the movie Avatar? 3D?

Read up on "investigative journalism" and stop with the cutesy rhetorical questions. All you're demonstrating is that you have no idea what the political / economic factors are that would be part of this issue.
20
@16: The traffic is so bad there now Metro pulled all of their buses off 1st Ave S.
21
@19: We went from a president that was a diehard for Focus on the Family to one that supports Gay marriage. Different fucking world, this today thing.
22
@17: the city (that is us) will spend millions refurbishing Key for a 5-8000 seat venue to capture that market. Or we will let it sit vacant. Either way, it is a cost associated with a stadium.
23
@21
Thank you for reminding me!
Goldy, Washington State now allows "gay marriage" (well the legal technicalities are murky but ...).
That's a HUGE change from 1990.
24

Why am I paying a $20 "Congestion Reduction Fee" to King County when they go behind everyone's back to situate a massive stadium in the one place (and this is confirmed by the opinion of the Port of Seattle) guaranteed to cause even more traffic headaches!

Most "major cities" put their sports stadiums (NYC, SF) at the terminus ends of their transit network, not smack dab in the middle!
25
The Mariners are using 20,000 seats in a stadium built for 47 thousand standing room only capacity.
Just reduce the allotted number of seats the Mariners clearly are not planning on using by 18,000.
26
@ 16, good points all. I know it, but @ 9 specifically was worrying about THREE events happening at the same time, so I was soothing his concerns there. (And, actually, if you consider other uses for the arena, like concerts, then the likelihood of all three being in use simultaneously goes up.)

I would hope that there could be some kind of coordinating committee that could ensure (or do all that they could) that simultaneous events not be scheduled. It's hard when MLB and NFL seasons overlap because both teams are simply going to have homestands in September, but the Seahawks could conceivably be limited to one home game that month, the M's could be on the road that weekend... multiply that by all the cities with NFL and MLB and it gets hairy, but in Denver at least the stadiums are two miles apart, not across the street from each other. I wonder how many cities have all their sports stadiums in such close proximity like Seattle?
27
@ 25: If those are empty seats already, how does that change anything?
28
Who's Shilling for a Sodo Arena?
The same fuckwit who can't explain why a professional sports team should be subsidized by the taxpayers.
30
I would love to have an NHL hockey team in Seattle, which will only happen if a new stadium is built, but I'm not sure it would be good for Seattle, even ignoring possible traffic issues. Last I checked, the general gist of cost-benefit studies (and other economic looks) on partially publicly funded stadiums was negative. Looking at past case studies, there's little reason to believe the city, its residents, or businesses will actually make more money if new sports teams move in, and some reason to think such a move would be a net negative.

Again, this is ignoring traffic issues and any possible impact on road shipping.
31
Maritime businesses have some legitimate concerns about freight mobility, but there have long been plans in place but never delivered to address these concerns. To borrow some words, "the need remains for a joint city and county effort - with state involvement."


So, obviously the solution is to put in a new arena where traffic is already a clusterfuck without lining up improvements and the money to fund it *beforehand*, while all the while the city uses $200 million of its bonding authority to build the ARENA and not to fix SODO's MANY traffic problems.

Seattle's only obligation in this should be investing in traffic mitigation, just like San Francisco with its ballpark for the Giants. And no deal should be approved without very clear and funded plans for that mitigation.
32
@10 - MLB and NBA overlap for all of April, May, and most of June, if you include the preposterously inclusive NBA playoffs. (Of course, the Sonics would likely avoid that consequence.)
33
ditto @28.

Goldy shilling for millionaire welfare queens / extortionists.

Fuk 'em.

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/
34
Reminds me of why I hate starbucks:

http://deadspin.com/5907371/howard-schul…

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