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Comments
But more to your point: I wouldn't waste my time anyone who would equate a conversation about rape to "cutesy outrage." Sorry, you'll have to go clawing up another tree for your attention grab.
It's the same as saying a conversation about obesity and fat shaming couldn't involve people who haven't been fat.
Or that conversations about bullying can only involve the victims of bullying, because their POV is the only true one.
http://tinyurl.com/arjsc6l
-When possible, travel with another person... particularly at night.
-Be aware of your surroundings and trust your instincts. Do not feel embarrassed to leave an uncomfortable situation.
-Walk with purpose and project an assertive and business-like image. Criminals will be discouraged if you do not appear vulnerable or easily intimidated.
These are tips they have posted for tourists. Bastards!
Patriarchs: Can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em into the sun. (Because of sexist socialization which holds women back in math and science.)
I see now that this was all just a thinly-veiled victim-blaming insult, and that instead the police should have circulated a newsletter telling people not to burglarize homes.
Of course I don't think my experience represents all women, but I have thought about these things. I'm not afraid of being sexually assaulted because I'm highly sensitive, and completely turned off by, the slightest whiff of sexist behavior. If I'm walking on the street, I do all the smart things everybody should do, AND I can give a very mean look.
Alithea you sound miserable, are you OK?
everybody, please read the book "The Female Fear", by Margaret Gordon and Stephanie Riger. it is a sociological study about the impact of the fear of rape on relationships, society, methods of coping with physical trauma, and how women severely restrict their activities, especially at night. you can buy it used on Amazon, or check it out from the Seattle Public Library.
think about it. how many times has a woman wanted to do something, but didn't because of the fear of rape?
The goddamned advice was just fine given the matters at hand and keeping yourself safe given the fucking moment you may find yourself under attack. Jesus Fuck. Anyone of us can fall under attack from some random fucker. It's not just the ladies. But because there is a vagina involved and the very fact that a MALE really can over power a FEMALE and a MALE as well means that the advice is fucking bunk and the tone is insulting.
No it's not. The advice is for what is out there at the moment you find yourself out there and should you find yourself in the position to defend yourself, you might think of this shit and it might save your life. Jesus. Save the fucking sermons when we can all stride the Earth together as one and free of fear. Until then, this shit is advice for women or anybody strolling around fucking Green Lake and etc at night when some unknown dude is chillin' around there.
Yes, it's advice about how not to get mugged. Which, funnily enough, is a thing that is more likely to happen to men. You know what men don't get? All these oh-so helpful safety tips drilled into them from early childhood.
Rape is almost never like getting mugged for sex. Maybe, in this case, there are one or more weirdos out there who are making it temporarily, in a few neighborhoods, more like the threat of getting mugged for sex. But that's rare. So rare that a lot of women, like me, NEVER EVER worry about it. I just don't. I refuse. It's down there with "attacked by a serial killer" or "hit by falling debris" on my list of concerns. I live in Northgate and I'm still not gonna worry about it.
@121 My advice for women going out tonight is to go where you want, when you want. Be aware of where your bag or wallet is. Be aware of your surroundings. Sure, you don't want to get mugged or otherwise assaulted, but you also don't want to get hit by a car or step in dog shit. If somebody acts threatening toward you, don't be afraid to call 911. Have zero tolerance for sexist assholes.
http://www.seattle.gov/police/prevention…
The worst possible response against defeatist fatalism ("we'll never stop rape, so let's just let women deal with the problem") is irresponsible idealism ("don't take precautions because you shouldn't have to"). You're picking the latter argument because you want to impugn that the police are taking the former position. Be angry, but don't be stupidly indignant.
Look, we get it: women SHOULD NOT HAVE TO constantly be on the guard against rape. People shouldn't have to guard against any type of crime, whether it's robbery, swindling, violence, bias attacks, etc. But until this barbaric world is the way it should be, lock your house, don't leave your keys in the car, watch your money, be alert on the street. There are monsters out there - thousands and thousands of them. They don't give a shit about how the world should be. They are a cowardly lot and they look for easy targets. Don't be one.
Thinking about raping someone? SHOOT YOURSELF.
GUNS GUNS GUNS. YAAAAAAYYYYYYYY
I agree with you. I think either extreme by itself will never succeed, and both together have the best shot at making a real difference. In that line of thinking, condemning a good-faith effort from law enforcement to give some practical advice is not a great decision.
Where's the initiative to tell men not to rape? And tell 'bystander' men how to intervene?
You can make up your own points to argue about and try to win on your own terms. But, that's a completely different argument.
This post is not about the culture shift that needs to happen. It's what Anna strives for this post to be about. But, this post is actually about misplaced anger at a police officer telling women to protect themselves in the face of a very real threat that is currently aimed at them. This post is about getting police to not remind women on what good safety practices are because, supposedly, its been drilled into women's heads more than it has for guys...and its so UNFAIR. Never mind that there's a threat out there attacking random women...one of the more uncommon types of sexual assault predators.
And, for the record, I think that talking about rape and making women empowered is a good thing. But, even when rape and sexual assault statistics drop drastically, there will never be a Zero status due to random sickos. And, giving self-protection advice will always need to be part of the system, regardless of how much you shouldn't need it.
(Men are told not to rape, and believe it or not, most don't. Have you never seen the "No Means No!" campaign? It's taught in high school. People also are taught not to lie, cheat, steal, and murder. Most people don't do those things, but it doesn't always sink in with all people.)
In other words, group think is a real thing, and any member of society, both inside and outside the group, should be able to vet the valid points from the shrill bullshit.
Sure, it's anecdotal data. But so is yours.
The experience of being expected to live your life sequestered and fearful is nearly universal with women in this culture, and has left many of us with a lot of anger toward the social forces that still try to get us to live that way.
A LOT of anger.
Too much anger for fear. Come over here and let me punch you in the face.
Maybe it's because society feels the need to protect the "weaker" people. Or that its women who seem to be getting pissed off for the right reasons, but sometimes, such as in this case, at the wrong things. Like, police telling an already existing predator they shouldn't rape is going to stop him from raping. For reals.
Of course, telling you your anger here is misplaced is only going to piss you off more. But, it's not like most of the women here are hearing anything from a point of view that doesn't reinforce their already established beliefs.
You can punch me in the face, only if I get to punch you back. The moment a girl hits is the moment she gets hit back. You want to be treated equally, right? ;-)
Are you genetically predisposed to stupidity? Or are you stupid out of laziness and ignorance?
Unless you have some magical telekinetic superpowers, you can not control the mind, intent or actions of a rapist. This is a simple truth.
When you're out driving, you have no control over the operators of other vehicles. Hence, seatbelts and airbags.
And, to use your ridiculously ignorant strawman argument-- you have no control over hurricanes or tornados. Hence storm shelters.
There is nothing wrong with being educated and prepared.
But I don't know why I even bother trying to explain this to you. You'll always find something wrong with any and everything.
Your faux-psuedo-intellectual-feminist outrage over the advice is misguided, obnoxious and ignorant.
The men here need to keep in mind that the content or intent of the tips simply does not matter. They make women feel like children who are being talked down to and made responsible for their victimization. As men, we take the literal over the emotional, and so tend to not care about feelings if a good result can possibly be achieved. Emotions are much more vivid and important to women than they are to us.
The women here need to try to understand that the men are simply seeing a logical gap and trying to understand it. But, they likely never will because to understand that gap requires and emotional conection that the vast majority of men have no reference to, and do not want to. Being men, we (comparatively) operate poorly in the realm of emotion and empathy, as it was never meant to be our strong suit.
We both need to understand that the people commenting on the horribleness of the tips are actually in the minority. Classes that teach basic self-defense and awareness tactics like these are actually the most popular classes requested and taken by women, according to the leading rape prevention and education organizations. So it appears that not every woman feels comfortable with their grasp on the issue, or feels like such things are victim blaming.
Perhaps it is not an issue of men speaking for women's experiences, or women speaking for men's experiences, but rather any individual speaking for any other individual's experiences.
/a content free post for a content free generalized attack
'Tis better to repeat a point than to have no point at all.
Anyway, I've already been humbled and shamed and have conceded defeat but I guess you'll need to pile on at least 10 more times before you feel you’ve been heard. Please carry on.
Come on, troll. You can do better than this.
This advice shouldn't be offered in lieu of advice for women, but alongside. It would rightly send the message that rape is something both men and women should be trying to prevent.
It's fucked up. We're tired of it. Being told to do the same thing over and over with the same shitty results? And we're being unreasonable and whiny when we say it's not working?
No.
Time to try something else.
Again what advice would you offer women since rapists are not going change their ways anytime soon, and most women they target won't have someone else nearby to help them.
You wanna know how many times a dude has hurt my feelings in life? Zip. You wanna know how many times my feelings have been hurt by a female -- too many to count. Now why is this?
Because there is is confluence of moods, gender influence specific to social guidelines and also what you are supposed to look and act like given a certain age. You can't blame a male for being a male and you cannot blame a female for being a female. It's really not a big deal until bullshit starts happening. It happens both ways. I am of both camps as I do consider myself a "realist feminist" but of the male gender. Yet I am also 100% non violent in all cases of anything. However, the backlash from those who think that this ADVICE is demeaning need to check their history books. Whatever. None of us want to live in a world where shit like this goes on. This is why we always when needed protect one another and always, First Do No Harm.
When some bitch tells me to not help her after she's been attacked and I am the nearest one on scene and in full gentle respect and concern is the day I will fucking throw in the towel. Coming from a male feminist, fuck you militant, female feminists. You're making no sense and you're also being the exception to the rules you espouse.
We live on Earth together and we take care of one another.
As a man. Do you? Anything new?
Do you have anything to add besides too bad, so sad, sux to be a gal?
Because look just one comment up at ortolan comparing rape with getting his feelings hurt. Try starting with him.
Last fall, two of my closest friends got shot. One died, and the other is still in the hospital. They were sitting on the front stoop of their building at 2am. Was it their fault that they got shot? Absolutely not, but I don't sit on my front step at 2am. Should I have to deal with that restriction? Again, absolutely not. My advice is do what I do. I do my best to avoid dangerous situations. I stay out of high crime areas. I don't walk down dark alleys. (Another friend got beaten and mugged when he ducked into an alley to pee.) I keep aware of where I am, and who's near me. I look people in the eye, and walk with an assertive gait. I look for escape routes, etc.
Men are frequently on alert.
But, really, You. Don't. Get. It. Your post @151 proves you don't get it. This situation is not dealing with a guy who may be a good guy but occasionally sexually assaults a woman. Somebody who would do it in front of a crowd, or even take advantage of a drunk/passed out woman. The kind of casual seexual assault that is far more common and needs far more addressing.
This particular case, what this original post is about, is about a guy who knows what he's doing is wrong but gets off on it anyways. He makes sure that women he assaults are alone and random.
I know, I know. Sexual assault isn't usually random, blah blah blah. But, in this case it completely is. It's a stranger preying on women. On women generally alone. Three of the four cases were by the same dude, possibly a methhead, while it was dark. You can't depend on men to help you if there are NO FUCKING MEN AROUND. And, sorry, if there's a methhead running around attacking women who are alone, then yeah, the advice is for the women who are going to be doing things alone. Telling a methhead not to assault women is just as useful as telling a methhead that he shouldn't do meth.
So, while I'm not advocating no responsibility for men; chances are, when the attacker is lurking, there will be no men around. And save the cultural shift conversation for when its needed. When a judge tells a rape victim they shouldn't have been dressed like a slut. Or, when a lawyer defends a father molesting his daughter with, "she asked for it." Those are wrong.
It's moronic to get pissed over advice that needs repeating because there are obvious circumstances, right now, when women are getting attacked: alone, after dark, North Seattle. Helpful reminders are reminders because this threat exists.
Alerting when extra vigilance is needed is what the police are for. Obviously they see women doing things that put them at risk when there is a threat, and want to prevent another crime from happening until the threat is neutralized.
Of course, this is going to fall on your deaf ears, as you've always been the type to advocate against female responsibility and for calling people misogynists if they think you're being unreasonable.
Do you have any ideas, since all the advice that is being given to us is demonstrably inadequate?
Do you?
Again, Jesus, get with it.
Gentlemen these are the facts. Women are told over and over to obey an increasingly restrictive set of rules which while preventing us from doing what you take for granted, still do not even put a dent in the problem.
It. Is. Not. Working.
Pointing that out, and calling for shift in focus is only logical. When something isn't working, try something new.
Now, again, since all this advice being given to women is demonstrably inadequate, do you have any ideas?
Anything? Besides a variation on "It's Chinatown"?
Again:
Since the current approach is not working, do you have any new ideas on how to prevent rape?
What new focus is going to get rapists to stop raping? (Or murderers from murdering? Or muggers from mugging? Etc?)
What is your advice to women, since rapists are not going to vanish from the planet? (Nor are murderers and muggers)
All the precautions I take to avoid being the victim of a crime hasn't stopped men from being victims of crime. Does it mean there's no value in me being cautious and aware in every scenario?
When you say change focus, what change of focus will stop rapists from raping?
If those rules were followed, why did two women literally run into me on the sidewalk while on their phones after dark tonight?
Just wondering.
Here's a spoon, let me feed you. Once you've looked over these links, since you're grown, and have the power of google at your command, you can look for more ideas about how you can help change the culture, and do something to stop rape.
http://www.mencanstoprape.org/
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/male…
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-conte…
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2…
Please. Womansplain to us so so dense men. Maybe Lissa's Digest it.
I think it's funny. Not to mention classic displacement, right out of an elementary psych class.
Hahaha, again, dammit. I really didn't want to. Do you not think we're aware of any of this? Dude, the condescension is getting even more lame. You're obviously not talking to idiots here. Heaven forbid we call you one. Shit is seriously going over some of yours heads.
Is there some pro rape board any of us can attest to not rape to that we can be more welcome? Jesus, I am so close to going into the "women are all crazy" rant because my feelings were hurt. Fucking, christ. What it so goddamn difficult about the people you would call 911 for for their advice? Good Lord, this isn't fucking Feminism 101. Just deal with it. We're all here.
Don't you understand that men DO STOP RAPE? I don't need links and I don't need berated over "tone". Jesus, again, this is retarded and the reason I'm even still here because I find the trajectories of this conversation quite interesting. There are no ifs ands or buts, the advice was solid.
You see I have hope that you are capable of reading and assimilating information on your own.
I look forward to the ideas you come up with on how to prevent rape.
We need to try something else.
Do you have any ideas? The men on the links I provided have some. Go take a look.
How does fighting misogyny in gaming protect a woman walking alone tonight in Greenwood with a known methy predator at large?
And, besides, you never answered my first question. If the over-repeated rules are being followed, how did three separate women get attacked when walking or running alone in the dark?
But you know that.
What about the other links I provided? I hope you found them useful in framing your own plans on how to help prevent rape.
When something does not work, you try something new.
You have yet to offer any alternative, or even anything in addition to following these rules, to prevent rape.
And preventing rape really is the point isn't it? Isn't that what that list of dos and don'ts quoted was supposed to be (how ever poorly) in aid of?
So. Again. Since the current approach is inadequate, do you have any new ideas? And why, since it is so obviously failing, are you so invested in the status quo?
Really Misanthrope, if we all want rape to be prevented, then we're on the same side. And we need to find a better way, since this one is broken, and always has been. wxPDX had some thoughts. The men on the links I provided have some thoughts. Culture can be changed. Why not try to help change it rather than throwing your hands in the air? I've seen you on other threads, on other topics, just as huge and difficult, and you haven't given up the fight.
Fight for this too.
How does changing the culture help the independent woman walking alone tonight, tomorrow or Saturday?
It won't happen over night, but if we stick with what isn't working, it won't happen at all. And what we are doing now isn't working.
You know that.
For change to happen, you have to let go of the status quo Misanthrope.
Don't you get this? Lissa, we get the grander issues here. But the day to day or night to night shit is good advice when needed and obviously, it is needed if some asshole is still out there.
How does changing the culture help the independent woman walking alone tonight, tomorrow or Saturday?
Changing the culture to accept marriage equality didn't happen in 72 hours, and indeed, is an ongoing fight still. Changing the culture to prevent rape will take time as well.
Wait.
Are you trying to get me to say that there's no 100% way to prevent by Saturday a woman alone at night from getting raped, so she best watch out and follow the rules? Is that it?
Really? Is that your argument against changing an approach to rape prevention that isn't working?
Tell me that's not what you're saying.
So, tell me. What would you say, as a police officer, to protect women right now, knowing that there were three independent women walking and running alone in the dark who have been attacked by the same male predator. What would you say to try to protect the next victim?
It may be regrettable and unfair that as of today, women are subject to different risks than men and that SPD's advice might seem to imply that women are responsible for keeping themselves safe; but all crime is unfair. Should the SPD respond to car prowling by saying that everyone should be able to leave their cars unlocked and that hey, car prowlers, what you're doing is wrong so knock it off? We would laugh the SPD out of the city for that (although it might be a welcome change from their regular pastime of beating minority suspects).
If we want a change in societal norms, we have to direct our energy and anger somewhere it can actually make a difference at that level. Legislation would be a good place to start - getting our society to make clear in its legal codex that women are truly equal might end our complicity in making them live in fear.
But seriously - asking SPD to address rape culture? You're discrediting your own argument by even suggesting it.
These are all important topics and conversations that need to be had. The fact that we were not talking about violence against men, doesn't detract from that conversation.
But that isn't what we're talking about right now, that's all.
To address both your question and Misanthrope's, no I don't think women are helpless. And I don't think that women should throw their hands in the air and give up living their lives. But the fact remains that that the third victim for example, was doing what you could do with out a second thought:
Running along a popular jogging track (not through a dark alley!) in a nice neighborhood (not in Detroit!) before work (not in the middle of the night!). And she was following quite a few of the suggestions on that list.
Comfortable shoes that allowed her to run? Check
Nonrestrictive clothing? Check
Had a cellphone but wasn't texting? Check
Neutral expression? Check
Knew her location? Check
Gave a good description of her attacker? Check
And yet.
The point isn't that she shouldn't have done all those things. The point is that those things are not enough. Telling women to do these things is not enough.
It. Is. Not. Working. And the answer is not the variation on "It's Chinatown" that ya'll keep offering up. Neither is accusing women of whining when we point that out.
The answer lies in changing the culture. Will that happen by Saturday? No, but if you really want to help end rape and violence against women, you have to let go of the status quo and join other men in working toward that end. Men like this:
http://keranews.org/post/dallas-mayor-wa…
Because telling us over and over and over to do what we are already doing isn't enough.
So. Are ya up for it?
What would you say, as a police officer, to protect women right now, knowing that there were three independent women walking and running alone in the dark who have been attacked by the same male predator. What would you say to try to protect the next victim?
That sucks, and has to change. And no, we don't talk about it nearly enough, not relative to the amount of time we spend conditioning women to fear rape around every unknown corner. The fact that even having this conversation seems laughable to a lot of people is a huge part of the problem.
But in the meantime, when a bunch of attacks against women crop up in one neighborhood, we need to be aware of it and protect ourselves. I would give my own daughter this same advice for staying safe in a potentially dangerous area.
Where I pointed out a number of things on the list that the third victim had done? And where I said:
The point isn't that she shouldn't have done all those things. The point is that those things are not enough. Telling women to do these things is not enough.
The next victim should do all the same things. But it won't be enough. Telling her to do them won't be enough.
Telling other women over and over to do these things Is. Not. Enough.
Because telling us over and over and over to do these things Is. Not. Working.
I have told you what I think will work. I have told you that what I think will work will not happen over night. I have supplied links to examples of men trying to do what I think needs to be done, i. e. change our culture. I have told you that what I think will work does not mean that women should throw their hands in the air and give up living their lives. I even said in my first post responding to Rob: it's not the advice per se.
I have answered your question. That you don't like that answer doesn't mean I'm deflecting. It means you don't like the answer.
We've established that you approve of the list, so in addition to the list, since that alone is demonstrably inadequate in reducing rape, what do you think should be done?
I'm putting you on the spot. I'm asking for a fully formed idea. I'm asking for a specific answer. Not some nebulous, this-is-the-type-of-thing-the-world-should-be-doing-but-I-don't-have-the-specifics type answer. I'm asking for your speech. Hard language.
What would you, Lissa, say, as a police officer, to protect women right now, knowing that there were three independent women walking and running alone in the dark who have been attacked by the same male predator. What would you say to try to protect the next victim?
But that not what this thread is about, really. Anna asserted that the SPD's advice amounts to rape culture. The SPD's advice is simply crime prevention tips that they give to anyone, male or female. Anna's outrage was an uniformed, knee-jerk reaction.
BUT THE ADVICE. IS NOT. ENOUGH..
The advice alone IS NOT. WORKING.
I'm sorry to get internet shouty, but that is the point. We follow the advice and it isn't enough. And when we point that fact out we get told we are whining, or that we just want to pretend we live in a fairy land, or, there's nothing else that can be done, so just shut up and follow the advice, and too bad if your life gets tinier and tinier! That's life.
No. There are other things that can be done. I've given you links pointing to men who are trying to do the things that need to be done. It will not happen over night, but if you don't try, if we don't try, it won't happen at all.
Stop asking me what can be done. I've told you. Start asking yourself.
The police are trying to stop rapes in the culture we have today. They are a law enforcement organization, and are not equipped bring on major social changes.
You say the tips police spokeswoman released should be followed, but then get angry that they reiterated them. Let's face it, not everyone, woman or man, is as vigilant as she or he could be. As careful as I am, I've realized from time to time that didn't look down an alley before passing it. One time I forgot to lock my door, and was so grateful that no one got in. Reminders don't hurt anyone, and are appropriate when there is a known serial rapist on the loose.
There are rapists in the streets right now preying on women. Are the police guidelines foolproof? No. Are the guidelines the end solution? No, but they are proven to reduce risk in a dangerous world that isn't going to become a Utopia anytime soon? Yes.
But that is not the point.
The point is that following the advice isn't enough. It isn't working. More needs to be done. And again, I've told you what I think needs to be done, and provided links with examples of what I think needs to be done.
What do you think we can do to reduce the threat of rape?
Do you acknowledge that or not?
We wouldn't get so angry if more were being done besides the advice. Telling us not to get angry, and that yes, nobody is pro rape, and then just letting it all sort of die away without actually doing anything else? Not helpful.
We'll keep getting angry, and we'll keep trying to change the culture, and by we, I hope I can mean you too.