Ban Bossy? I Don't Think So. Be Bossier.

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Judging from your second to last paragraph, not only bossiness, but you want, want, want, want. Just like a 3 yr old.

dnt trust me on March 10, 2014 at 1:20 PM

THANK YOU. I am so sick of Sheryl Sandberg and her over privileged idea of what Women ought to be doing.

wxPDX on March 10, 2014 at 1:22 PM

Yes! Great post.

Rotten666 on March 10, 2014 at 1:41 PM

Be right, then be as bossy as you want. Doesn't matter what kind of equipment you have between your legs, be right first.

wisepunk on March 10, 2014 at 1:43 PM

A-FUCKING-MEN

SeattleKim on March 10, 2014 at 1:49 PM

Being bossy relates to confidence? On what planet?

When you're bossy, you're being an asshole. I love L7 as much as the next Seattleite, but they mock bossiness. They show how it is bad by using it as an over the top tool. Breaking The Patriarchy isn't done by becoming The (M)atriarchy. It is done by calling The Partiarchy on their bullshit. You don't stop an asshole by being an asshole. You stop an asshole by not supporting assholish behavior. Adopting the worst elements of your opposition simply turns you into the monster you're trying to defeat.

libertine on March 10, 2014 at 1:57 PM

"bossiness" seems like quite a rorschach word.

bradl on March 10, 2014 at 2:02 PM

Here's the problem I see with women in power.

They are bossy, or not, much as men have all different styles.

However, women, I find, are still looking to men for approval.

So, a woman will "be bossy" and then she'll look around the room as if asking "was that good guys?"

Men don't do this. We act like assholes even when no one is watching.

Supreme Ruler Of The Universe on March 10, 2014 at 2:02 PM

none of your examples are "bossy". the word you want is "assertive". I am a big advocate of women being assertive in every facet of life.

I know that men have been bossy assholes for approximately ever, but how about if we try to share the world, you know, equally?

Max Solomon on March 10, 2014 at 2:12 PM

Bossy = insecure

It's definitely not the same thing as being a good leader.

Mahtli69 on March 10, 2014 at 2:13 PM

I've worked with bossy people, regardless of gender, and it sucks.

Bossiness doesn't say "confident", it says "insecure".

HelpMeJebus on March 10, 2014 at 2:14 PM

@9: Assertive behaviour in women is frequently labelled "bossiness" by men who want to put them back in their place.

Backyard Bombardier on March 10, 2014 at 2:16 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQSqBG2ji… Why would anyone want to ban Kelis and her jam Bossy?

CheckYourself on March 10, 2014 at 2:20 PM

Totally right on. Love this post.

stating the obvious on March 10, 2014 at 2:21 PM

Assertive is code for asshole. Neither gender should be encouraged to be assholes, and sharing the world equally can only come about when neither gender is being "bossy".

libertine on March 10, 2014 at 2:22 PM

@15,

Men are welcome to stop being assholes starting now.

I won't hold my breath.

keshmeshi on March 10, 2014 at 2:25 PM

#16, I'm all for that. Rather then put women in their place or elevate them, I'm 1000% for knocking men off their pedestal. I've got my 25 pound sledge hammer named "Iconoclast" ready to smash this statue.
Where's yours?

libertine on March 10, 2014 at 2:30 PM

The only reason that women are held back from some areas like leadership roles or, for example the front lines of combat is because they have this tendency to make choices based more on emotions than logic. There ARE DIFFERENCES between men and woman that no one can change. These differences also make women better at raising babies and children, they use more empathy and emotion when making decisions. Try as you may, these biological differences will never change, there will always be the exception to the rule but those are just a small irrelevant percentage of the whole.

juche on March 10, 2014 at 2:40 PM

Danielle, your post bothers the fuck out of me! Why do you feel it necessary to criticize a campaign intended to change the way assertive young women are negatively labeled and thereby subdued? Why not support your sisters in a positively intended effort? And isn't it easier to change the way we talk about leadership and power in girls than to, you know- REDEFINE A WORD?

redsea on March 10, 2014 at 2:46 PM

@18 fuck you and your biology bullshit. statistically speaking, there will be just as much of a difference between two men in a given situation as between a man and a woman. because guess what, human beings come in a variety of personalities and approaches to life. also I would like to see the research that says men tend to operate more from "logic". I think you may actually be speaking of the research that men in power show less empathy than women. only your limited world view doesn't let you question whether maybe that, if true, actually makes men WORSE leaders of other human beings. I know it's pointless to even engage with someone whose starting off point is what you wrote, but I'm bored and your ignorance is almost fun.

olechka on March 10, 2014 at 2:50 PM

@19 because it is always easier to reach people with a positive than a negative. also because just the two words "ban bossy" have the unfortunate effect of an association in the reader's mind of "ban bossyness", which is literally the opposite of what we want. I agree 100% with Danielle. We need to actively socialize our girls to be more assertive and aggressive (not in the anger sense, in the going for what you want sense) not try to ban one word that describes what girls like that might be labelled.

olechka on March 10, 2014 at 2:59 PM

@20. I stand by my statement until it's disproved with facts, not your emotions on the subject,

juche on March 10, 2014 at 3:01 PM

@22 you can stand all alone in your little corner clutching your statement like a security blanket all you want. the world is changing and it isn't going to wait for you

olechka on March 10, 2014 at 3:06 PM

@22: That isn't how it works, you know. You are the one who made a ridiculous and unsupported claim. How about you provide some facts to support your unfounded assertion that women's emotions (and uteruses, probably) make them more suited to raising children than being leaders?

Backyard Bombardier on March 10, 2014 at 3:06 PM

Sheryl Sandberg is an anti-labor, anti-woman piece of shit, so anything that goes against her gets a thumbs up in my book.

Solk512 on March 10, 2014 at 3:19 PM

@24 unfortunately I'm not bound by whatever rules you think apply to whoever disagrees with you. I'm here posting by the guidelines of the owners of the stranger forums. If you want to disprove the basic facts that there are physical and chemical differences between men women, be my guest.

juche on March 10, 2014 at 3:22 PM

if, for instance, a woman can't stop herself from telling you how to wash the dishes, even though you've washed dishes since you were 8 and have asked repeatedly that they stop telling you how to do a simple task that you know how to do with your eyes closed in the dark, can you then tell them they're being bossy? or should they be bossier about it so as to knock men in general off their pedestal?

Max Solomon on March 10, 2014 at 3:23 PM

@26: And if you wish to preserve your essential misogyny by refusing to examine its foundations, be my guest. But don't expect me to take anything you say remotely seriously.

Backyard Bombardier on March 10, 2014 at 3:30 PM

Isn't 'assertive' the word you're looking for? 'Bossy', to my ear, sounds like someone is being a big arrogant jerk.

shotsix on March 10, 2014 at 3:44 PM

In my very gender equal laboratory, being 'bossy' from either sex would penalize you, just for the simple fact that nobody would want to work with you (and research requires a lot of cooperative efforts).

shotsix on March 10, 2014 at 3:51 PM

I don't want anyone to run the world. That's a feminist statement, as far as I'm concerned.

sarah70 on March 10, 2014 at 4:53 PM

#31, I stand with you. My sledge hammer Iconoclast stands with you too.

libertine on March 10, 2014 at 5:02 PM

I'm not a big fan of her, but the "Ban Bossy" is not about telling women/girls not to be bossy, but about not labeling girls as bossy which has pejorative connotations, but about affirming their leadership skills. It's a word used mostly towards girls (whereas "bossy" boys are considered leaders) because our paradigm is still that girls should be "good" and "cooperative" while boys are supposed to "take charge."

Trifle on March 10, 2014 at 5:16 PM

@26, apparently you're new to the internet. So, first off, welcome! I don't know where you've been all these years, but congratulations on coming out from under your rock.

Regardless of the site, the burden of proof is always on the individual making the assertion. This is also true in real life conversations between adults. So congrats on your first attempt at an adult conversation! I imagine it's a touch frightening and confusing at first, but I'm sure it will eventually get easier for you.

Here's a free logic tip: the fact there are chemical and biological differences between genders doesn't lend credence to any random trait you might ascribe to one. I'm surprised your eminently logical man-brain didn't realize this.

Normally I don't bother providing evidence to counter an argument made by someone too lazy to supply his own. But since you're new to the internet, I'll make an exception.

http://blogs.hbr.org/2012/03/a-study-in-…
http://euroscientist.com/2013/04/gender-…

There are a helluva lot more studies out there that disprove your assertion - I just grabbed these two on a quick search.

Just Blue on March 10, 2014 at 5:18 PM

Talk about missing, the point, Ms. Henderson.

bigyaz on March 10, 2014 at 5:22 PM

I understood the campaign to establish how adults speak to children. All it suggests to me is that the word bossy is not empowering. Bossier would be less empowering. I tell the young girls n my life that they can do whatever they like or aspire to. Do what it takes to get there.

Seattle91 on March 10, 2014 at 5:42 PM

@34

2 vague studies written by joe blow vague author and posted on even more vague and unknown websites. Well you have me convinced, men and women have no biological, physical or chemical differences in general. Estrogen and testosterone also imaginary. Because some unknown person in the internets said so, it must be true. Thanks for educating this ignorant bastard.

juche on March 10, 2014 at 5:44 PM

YES. Thank you! This so needed to be said: Just own your shit and letting men fucking deal with it!

Too many messages toward girls and women are about what we shouldn't do, what we should stop doing, what we are doing wrong. Fuck that.

mitten on March 10, 2014 at 5:49 PM

Henderson for President

Ronja on March 10, 2014 at 6:16 PM

Wow. Can you misunderstand what the "Ban Bossy" campaign is any more than this post? I usually like what you have to say, but so many people are so fucking triggered by Sheryl Sandberg that anything by her makes them lose 30 IQ points.

Thanks, @19 & @33 for being exceptions to the rule.

Canadian Nurse on March 10, 2014 at 6:23 PM

Juche is either Goldy spending's his newfound free time trolling, or a complete idiot. Either way we should just ignore him.

j2patter on March 10, 2014 at 7:26 PM

>I want Malala Yousafzai's birthday to be an international holiday.

Oh my god you could not have lost me harder. What the fuck is this, the lunch table in sophomore year at Fairhaven?

The CHZA on March 10, 2014 at 9:19 PM

@34 I declare a winner of this comment thread.

@37 The Harvard Business Review is a vague and unknown website? Just how big was this rock you climbed out from?

persimmon on March 10, 2014 at 9:21 PM

>It's my dream, my goal in life, to be surrounded by unrelentingly bossy women

okay I missed this

I'm not sure if you're trying to retake the word or if you don't know that "bossy" generally has a negative connotation. Being surrounded by bossy anybody is a pain in the ass.

The CHZA on March 10, 2014 at 9:22 PM

The only reason anyone tolerates bossy people is if they have shit for self-esteem or they have no choice.

And if you think bossy == leadership, perhaps you should leave the business of advising people how to lead to actual leaders.

seandr on March 10, 2014 at 9:27 PM

@37, I stated there are biological and chemical differences between genders. Somehow, in a breathtaking feat of reading incomprehension, you interpreted that to mean the exact opposite.

The Harvard Business Review is over 90 years old, has a paid circulation topping 250,000, and is available in twelve languages. In a 2012 international poll ranking the world's best consultants, Solberg came in third. Just because you personally aren't aware of something and someone, it doesn't mean they're "unknown." It just means you're ignorant.

Regardless, even if I'd directed you to a site covered in LOLcats and operated by a sole nine year old blogger, it would be more reputable than the evidence you've provided for your assertions.

@41, Goldy would make a far better troll than Juche. Though I admit I wouldn't have initially engaged Juche if I'd noticed how impossibly addled he is.

@43, tragically, the rock was very large. He was a very lonely man until he found all those straw men to keep him company.

Just Blue on March 10, 2014 at 10:05 PM

@46

Your link to the Harvard site (hbr.org site) was just a blog that 2 owners of a consulting firm posted on. Big deal? Not really.

juche on March 10, 2014 at 10:32 PM

The original point I made is still the same, that physical and emotional or chemical differences exist between men and women in general, you can talk cute and play cool all you want but if can can't disprove these facts then what's the point?

juche on March 10, 2014 at 10:35 PM

I like using my bossy ass emotions to guide me. Gives me laser fucking focus on my target, which is any kind of bullshit that says I am less.

thatgirlkelly on March 10, 2014 at 11:02 PM

Bossy anyone is annoying as fuck, regardless of gender. Surely they can find a more appropriate synonym.

Vitriolforbreakfast on March 10, 2014 at 11:13 PM

Everyone spending time on this "juche" person: you're fucking dumbasses. This is the internet. Go learn or discuss something. Why are you wasting your time? Does this feel good? I have to admit saying you're dumbasses feels good but you haven't argued with me about that yet.

You don't get SlogPoints for being the better Slog Arguer and disproving Slog Trolls/Slog Stupid Conservative Males/All One Guy Employed By The Stranger's Parent Company. Stop cluttering the comments with your self-important bullshit.

Just kidding but seriously you guys are all annoying.

The CHZA on March 10, 2014 at 11:56 PM

I have worked with and for both men and women. I have found that the women that push there way to the top do so by being worse than bossy. They often become nasty bitches, with the williness to backstab and cut down anyone in their way. Maybe this happens within the male climb to the top, but it is especially nasty when women do it. These climbing women treat other women poorly. That has not been my experience with men climbers. I am pro women but this has been my realization from 30 years of working.

CatDog2 on March 11, 2014 at 6:02 AM

Bossy turns most people off no matter what sex they are. Bossy does not equate to leader nor the ability to empower people to want to work for you.

CatDog2 on March 11, 2014 at 6:11 AM

This whole "Ban Bossy" thing is stupid. Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones But Words Will Never Hurt Me Unless I'm A Women and You Say I'm Bossy Then I Will Definitely Retire From My Career Because It Is Not Worth It. The problem isn't the words. Girls are not encouraged to stand up for themselves at a young age when bad things happen. I suspect this robs them of the ability to derive self-esteem internally and basically need to receive affirmation from outsiders in order to feel encouraged. The problem starts by like, age 4 I suspect.

fetish on March 11, 2014 at 6:18 AM

"Bossy" is a doubleplus ungood word and is hereby removed from the Newspeak Dictionary

Homple on March 11, 2014 at 7:10 AM

The ad (watch it; it's short) says: Parents, don't discourage girls from being assertive leaders (and all the other positive connotations of bossiness) by labeling them with the pejorative "bossy", which is a reprimand of the sort seldom given to male children.

I don't think anyone here is disagreeing, except for the writer of this article, who seems to have taken the phrase "ban bossy" out of context.

You could argue that "ban bossy" is not a clear enough slogan on its own if intelligent people misunderstand it this easily, but if you've seen the video, I'm pretty sure the context is clear.

stuckie on March 11, 2014 at 8:32 AM

You completely miss the point of this campaign. It's NOT telling girls to play nice. It's telling society, "don't label them as bossy when they act like leaders." Bossy is a terrible, negative term. No one of either gender should be encouraged to be 'bossy' - BOTH genders should be taught to lead in effective, non abusive ways. Society SHOULD, however, stop putting females who take charge down. Women should not be encouraged to 'be bitches' or be bossy - same goes for men. It's ridiculous when women 'take down' other women because they misunderstand their message. We should be celebrating the fact that Sheryl brings this conversation to the table, rather than saying she's an entitled, wealthy woman who is out of touch with reality.

taxpepper on March 11, 2014 at 8:59 AM

boss·y1 [baw-see, bos-ee] definition:
adjective, boss·i·er, boss·i·est.
given to ordering people about; overly authoritative; domineering.
highhanded, officious, dictational; overbearing, abrasive.
Who in their right mind would encourage ANY child to be that way? Sorry, being an asshole in response to other people being assholes is NOT effective parenting.

taxpepper on March 11, 2014 at 9:09 AM

Sandberg seems to be one of those people where people rush to misinterpret and misrepresent them in order to criticize.

It is pretty embarrassing how far off the mark Danielle is with this criticism.

Theodore Gorath on March 11, 2014 at 10:15 AM

All I see everywhere is girl's being encouraged to be anything they want to be and quite rightly. However there is a big problem which is difficult if not impossible to overcome. Leadership is natural to men and not to women. Their perceived lack of confidence in leadership roles comes across as bossy because it is an unnatural thing they are doing. We can change roles but not the way we were made. I have worked for and with many female bosses and have not met many who find it it easy or comfortable so they try to be like a man and they are not. Lodgelife

lodgelife on March 11, 2014 at 10:39 AM

Wow you missed the point

dkjndmsahksdhksal on March 11, 2014 at 11:20 AM

@60 Maybe many of the women bosses you have worked for grew up in a society that told them they couldn't lead and they needed to look to a man for confirmation. Maybe that means the issue at hand is society's support of women and not that leadership is unnatural to them.

nemesia on March 11, 2014 at 12:15 PM

@51, I won't "debate" a troll endlessly (Juche has already served the only purpose he had with me), but I will occasionally toss a comment or two at them to make a larger point.

Though Juche is a waste of pixels, there are well-intentioned non-trolls who fail to cite sources, and who think invoking science automatically proves their unsubstantiated conjecture. Youth especially tend to leap from a proven point A to conjecture D with no connecting points in between, even when they're not being disingenuous. I was using Juche to make a larger, albeit extremely basic, point.

Also, there are quite a few people who honestly conflate real biological differences with immutable, gender-based personality hardwiring. The bigoted extremes, which Juche represents, are obvious: in his view, women are hardwired to be baby-making machines, and ill-equipped to assume other roles. However, the competing influences of biology and society can be extremely difficult to disentangle, and in many cases researchers are uncertain as to which influence is more responsible for a given difference. Juche's unintentional parody of biology's role might be ham-fisted, but it does touch upon the subtler tendency to underestimate neuroplasticity. This failure to acknowledge the human brain's remarkable adaptive qualities muddies the waters whenever there's a discussion of gender roles.

Personally, over the years I've learned from watching people with extreme versions of my own latent tendencies/failures get swatted down.

Admittedly my second comment to him was a throwaway farewell. I'm sentimental that way.

@60, see paragraph three above.

Just Blue on March 11, 2014 at 12:17 PM

#18, you're wrong. There are not biological differences in male and female brains that ensure women are 'nurturing' or anything else. Whatever differences exist are the product of experience - of cultural conditioning that prescribes roles for men and women. Read some things before you start talking all 'sciencey.'

http://www.jpehs.co.uk/2013/12/03/brain-…

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/…

malivuk on March 11, 2014 at 12:20 PM

Bossy is a tool a good boss can use when appropriate. But you can't count on it working all the time. Knowledge of the work your people do, and respect for the work are at the core of good leadership. If you don't have thouse, all the bossy in the world won't help you, whatever gender you are.

Catalina Vel-DuRay on March 11, 2014 at 12:54 PM

I've worked with elementary school kids for the last 10 years and I've heard a lot of insults thrown around between boys and girls, but not "bossy." It's an outdated word and I'm sorry somebody called Sandberg "bossy" when she was a kid, but let's move on.

How about "Ban Bitch." That's a word that gets thrown around way too often.

karrengv on March 11, 2014 at 1:00 PM

Who actually uses the word "bossy" anymore???

I'm sorry someone called Sandberg bossy when she was a little girl, but does that mean we have to start a movement to ban the word? How about "Ban Bitch!" Now, that's a word that gets thrown around a lot!

karrengv on March 11, 2014 at 1:15 PM

@64

You didn't even read your links.

The guardian story has a catchy title that no doubt grabbed your attention (like any good journalism headline should) but if you read the whole story, it does not prove anything, only that a study was performed in which the results show that there are fundamental differences between men and woman, the Guardian author has issue with this conclusion and expresses his OPINON AND FEELINGS ON THE MATTER.

Written by guardian science editor about HIS OPINON on a study led by Professor Ragini Verma.

The other link you provided is an opinion blog by j.p.e. Harper-Scott who titles himself as 'reader in musicology and theory'.

I'm still waiting for the hard data and evidence that there are no physical, chemical, emotional differences between men and woman.

juche on March 11, 2014 at 2:06 PM

Oh shut the fuck up guys nobody fucking cares.

The CHZA on March 11, 2014 at 3:43 PM

Not for juche, because I doubt they'll read it, but if anyone wants a description of what we known and what we don't know about the psychology of gender differences, and of problems with many of the studies, Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society and Neurosexism Create Difference by Cordelia Fine (2010), is excellent. Even if you don't agree with it, you'll learn how much we really don't know about gender, and how things are so much more complicated than "hormones!"

Enjua on March 11, 2014 at 4:36 PM

@69, damn you're bossy.

Just Blue on March 11, 2014 at 6:32 PM

fuckin' a

The CHZA on March 11, 2014 at 11:21 PM

As the father of a daughter I'm hyper sensitive to this and am disappointed at the author for seemingly completely missing the point. I'm going to chalk it up to either 1) lack of due diligence on banbossy or 2) an attempt to drive traffic via a counter argument to a popular topic, commonly used by bloggers. Either one is disappointing. The quote below is taken verbatim from page 7 of the tips for parents.

"Talk About the Word “Bossy” Calling a girl “bossy” when she asserts her voice—a word we rarely use for little boys—sends the message that girls should not speak up. Explain to the girls in your life that “bossy” is a word often used to make girls feel bad about speaking up. Brainstorm examples of moments when being “bossy” is a good idea. Talk about what you stand for as a family when it comes to speaking up and take steps to make sure the members of your extended community support your daughter when she speaks her mind"

yev on March 11, 2014 at 11:45 PM

If Beyonce wants to ban mean words why not start with her husband's music? What a phony.

North by Northwest on March 12, 2014 at 12:54 PM

@74

did you really just skip over an entire blog post, the linked piece and 73 comments, none of which having anything to do with Beyonce, in order to post drivel?

LEE. on March 12, 2014 at 11:58 PM

@70, Just want to endorse your recommendation of Cordelia Fine's book. Very good summation of the science behind all this.

sugar2s on March 13, 2014 at 9:50 AM

@66: I don't remember being called "bossy" by any of my peers as a child (and I am much, much younger than Sheryl Sandberg). It was always adults who told me I was bossy.

The sad thing is, they legitimately had good intentions; "bossy" girls are generally not all that popular with their peers. Other girls I knew who were similar to me in elementary school learned how to seem less bossy in middle school and high school and they got in with the popular group. I never managed to conform well enough to behavioral gender norms to do the same.

I'm glad I never managed. A lot of those girls have trouble getting taken seriously in workplace settings now. They've been tamping down their talent in order to appear nonthreatening for so long that their coworkers are having trouble seeing it. Maybe if they hadn't been told it was bad to be bossy as little girls, they wouldn't have these problems.

alguna_rubia on March 13, 2014 at 10:41 AM

@68:
>2014
>demanding that people prove a negative
>not constructing a logically-sound null hypothesis
>not putting your ketchup in the fridge
ISHYGDDT

venomlash on March 13, 2014 at 11:37 AM

@78

I'm here in the stranger blog, the Mecca for extreme feminism. Everyone here is saying there is no difference between men and women. You would think that it wouldn't be so hard for them to prove what they believe.

juche on March 13, 2014 at 2:57 PM

Juche: "Prove." You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Kasatka on March 13, 2014 at 4:31 PM

80
What do you think it means?

juche on March 13, 2014 at 5:17 PM

Ban Bossy? I Don't Think So. Be Bossier.

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