@96 - It really has made me think about whether I want to be a business owner. It amazes me how as an individual contributor I'm a victim, as a business owner I'm suddenly evil. All because I created jobs, and vibrancy to my community, oh, and yes bought myself a paycheck.

@95 - It is funny how a couple months ago Costco and Dick's were lauded here as great companies that cared for their employees. Now... because someone got a slogan in their bonnet they are evil and don't deserve to exist. For those who unaware neither Costco nor Dick's would meet the new criteria of a $15 minimum wage.

@101 - and if my employees aren't actually living in poverty then it is ok? That is different no? And, if tomorrow the city decides they are going base the poverty wage on something completely different, say the cost for a single parent with 3 kids, then again, suddenly then those who can't meet that new demand are unworthy again?

Get real Meinert. You don't want to pay. That is the issue here. Seattlites are expected to absorb high rents, due to policies you advocate. Seattleites are expected to pay your prices. But when Seattleites want a raise, OH NO, WE CAN'T DO THAT. I was a moderate supporter but if a raise means making people like you live in reality then maybe you do need to go out of business; or better yet, you need to prove to everyone that you are as smart as you think you are and carry on. But maybe you just aren't that smart, just a big talker.

" If you have to pay your employees a poverty wage to turn a profit, you don't have a viable small business."

And someone who can't earn $15/hr isn't a viable human being I assume and doesn't deserve a job. So elitist this attitude by people who have never done anything for anyone.

@68

That's a video of people talking. Throwing numbers around. No accounting books there.

So we can agree that owning a business drives you into a delusional fantasy world. You delude yourself into thinking that wanting to pay $12.50 an hour is the same as wanting to pay $15. And you delude yourself into thinking that saying "My labor costs will group THIS MUCH!" is the same as opening your books.

I'm convinced if these guys ever did show us the numbers it would blow a giant hole below the water line of their sinking ship. But you need to do something quick. That 68% number isn't going to change itself. If anything, it's going to go up to 70.

@105: So your idea is that human beings are less important or just as important than businesses? I guess you would be just as sad if you lost your business than say, your child?

Same thing, right?

@101

That sounds like my business! I have a single, part-time employee and volunteer all of my free time (when I'm not working my day job) at my non-viable business trying to build it into something which would be better able to support real living wages for the people who live in this city which I love. Thanks to your enlightening comment, I now know that I should take my dreams, roll them up nice and tight, and shove them up my big, fat, corporate ass.

Jason are there any businesses worth keeping? Any that are doing the right thing? Only the ones that are paying your 'living wage' correct? So when TD brings his accounting to a meeting it's not valid unless you are able to look at it? You're a child and you're fucking with people's lives. Stop, you're hurting your position more than you're furthering it. You have no answer to the discussion, just more bad mouthing of great small businesses in our city.

http://horsesass.org/a-simple-question-t…

Again: has anyone fucking considered that a wage increase for 25% of Seattle residents just might increase demand and therefore sales so you don't have to cut hours, raise prices, or close shop?!? You all keep talking as if demand is entirely static regardless of how much disposable income your potential customers have. And you want us to be so fucking grateful for the wisdom our wonderful and gracious business smart job creators have?!?! Well, I don't see it. You're all fucking idiots!!!!

@109

Minimum wage workers have already opened their books. You know how much they make in a year, how much a Seattle rent costs, how much necessities cost. You, on the other hand, have not shown us anything. If you're going to pick apart our lives, we need to see the same level of disclosure from you. Anything less is hypocritical.

For business owners, it sure seems like you guys hate numbers…

Saying you don't have a viable small business is not meant as an insult, just a fact of life. I respect you for trying. Smart, hardworking people sometimes fail at a small business. Having said that I don't feel that society and the government should have to pay housing subsidies, food subsidies, etc just so a small business can reduce wages and turn a profit.
Anyone making less than $15/hour in Seattle is either in poverty of being helped by the government or friends/family. So yeah, I think it should be $15 for all, of any size.

So if we raise to $15/hr can we stop mandatory tipping with all the guilt attached to it? It would seem pretty unfair that a clerk at Home Depot gets $15/hr flat but a server "deserves" a tip. Both are doing their jobs right? And the argument that tips fill the gap between minimum wage and living wage would be gone once $15/hr was in place.

I think of it this way. During the housing bubble, a segment of the population who really shouldn't have bought homes did so. They used interest only loans, or based their budget on getting line of credit loans from growth in equity, or just qualified when they shouldn't have. I see businesses small or large that can only be viable if society pays some of the food and housing of their workers as similar. I think it's healthy to let some of these fail. Not all will, some will find a way to make it work, others will benefit from the increased spending of low wage workers, or from the loss of some of their competition who couldn't make it. I think this is healthy overall for the local economy.

@109

I bring my penis to meetings but that's not the same as letting everybody look at it. That costs extra.

But yes. I want to see the god damn books. I want somebody to show their books. Since no wage increase in the past has caused a decline in employment or a decrease in small businesses, it is a rather extraordinary claim that this wage increase will be different. It demands evidence.

Business owners have a direct financial incentive to lie. And we have right in front of us all kinds of utter bullshit, like comparing company A's total worldwide sales to company B's local Seattle sales. Or claiming to support $15 while also wanting to not pay $15. Only way to cut through the bullshit is to open up those books.

(Dare I ask who Jason is? I suspect there will not be a straight answer. Haven't got a straight answer to any other question yet.)

@114

At some point we have to ask what exactly is meant by "stopping mandatory [sic] tipping". And the "guilt". How exactly is Ed Murray & Co going to control how much guilt you feel? Is the Mayor and the Council going to pass a law against a stiffed server giving you the stinkeye? Or you imagining that they are?

Tipping is not mandatory. It's a social norm. If you want to stop tipping, then stop tipping. No minimum wage law can control what you do or what tipped employees feel about it, or what you feel about what you did.

The IRS taxes employees based on the average tips recorded at an establishment, but if you and everybody else stop tipping, then the average goes down and it's not taxed. So tipping is still in your hands.

All you have is answers! I've answered every question and you've dodged. You can't find one instance where the minimum wage was increased 61% yet you insist it won't harm businesses. You don't believe them because their financial statements are not public record. No one here is advocating to keep wage where it is, we are just trying to follow all those proven models you are so fond of in raising it. How do you think jobs will survive with such discontent for business? Would you prefer the gov't run everything? I meant to type something else, there's your answer.

Again, any businesses worth keeping? Any doing the right thing?

@118

Who the fuck is Jason? Are you drunk? Simple god damn question.

In 1988 Initiative 518 increased tipped employees wages by a whopping 85% The very industry that supposedly needs the tip penalty is the one what took an 85% wage hike without missing a beat. Right here in Washington. And not just rich Seattle. Spokane too. Pasco. Wenachee.

I think jobs will survive because minimum wage increases have never cost jobs. Never.

I'm not the only one saying you guys have no data. Everyone is pointing at the same elephant in the room: you guys lack data. You're making hypotheticals and hiding your data. Labor has open books and labor has a metric ton of data.

I don't get tired of repeating it. I enjoy pointing out how flimsy and dishonest your arguments are. Please, go on.

At the very least you could tell me who the hell Jason is. It's common courtesy. Tell me or I'm going to start calling you "Chauncey".

@118 you haven't answered my question @111 or @63. No where have I heard you guys entertain the notion that increased wages also corresponds to an expanded customer base.

@89 Agreed on all counts. I'm not tipping YOU, marian, and it's unfair as fuck if you take the money that I am giving my waitress and claim that that transaction is part of your paying her minimum wage.

@118 Here's server wages going up 81%. In Seattle. http://bit.ly/1rMjENM

Business owners are arguing back against this attack on them. While this is understandable, as it's directly impacting your bottom-line, you have to realize that the the voters really don't care about your business. This isn't about sticking it to Walmart, with your business getting caught in the crossfire. This is 100% about making sure that people who work in Seattle can afford to live in Seattle. You're not going to make any headway in this argument until you stop defending yourself and start making suggestions that include your workers making a living wage. Otherwise, we don't care what you have to say, and we'll stick $15NOW on the ballot, and damn the consequences.

It sounds like the solution is simple, if the job creators can't raise wages, and the rent won't stop rising, them job takers (tm) can just move to Yakima and enjoy their 3 hours-one-way commute. The free hand of the market solves it all!

@115 I appreciate the sentiment, but your analogy was false. The failure of the housing market was a construct of wall street/banks, *not* homeowners. See http://www.newrepublic.com/article/11691…

@119 mistook you for someone else. My apologies. Removing a tip credit still is not raising wages across the board. You still have no example.

@120 I agree with you. Minimum wage should be much higher, and I see the benefits.

@121 I'm sorry, did the employees' wages at mcdonalds change in 1988? And I never said anything about tips. I don't own a restaurant.

@123 I've never said the failure of the housing market was the fault of homeowners, simply that some folks that bought homes as the bubble was building probably couldn't actually afford the homes they bought, just as businesses that can only operate in the black if they get subsidized wages are not truly viable.

I have a feeling a lot of people have no know idea what it is like starting and running a small business. Most people don't start out saying "I have a lot of money, I wonder how I can exploit a lot of low wage workers and make even more money". Generally speaking, it is usually the opposite. Consider a typical brewpub in Seattle; it basically goes down like this:

1) Go the bank and try and borrow some money. The bank laughs at you (they make jokes about Kickstarter).

2) You borrow money from friends and family (nothing could go wrong with that).

3) After months of searching, you finally find a place that looks decent. They charge an enormous amount for rent, but that is just Seattle.

4) With the place in hand, you apply for the needed regulatory permits. You wait. And wait. And wait some more. You've been a lifelong left wing Democrat, but it is enough to turn you into a Republican (not they have ever done anything to make life easier for small business). Just when Ron Paul starts looking good, you finally get your license to make beer (you had to wait so long because making beer is oh, so dangerous (you should have opened up a gun shop)).

5) You are open for business. Woo hoo!

6) Business is slow. This is no surprise, since over 50% of the businesses fail in the first year. Your friends and family aren't getting their money back anytime soon, but they are OK with it (luckily).

7) Business picks up. All those years making kick-ass homebrew and studying the shit about brewing are paying off. You can finally start paying the people who loaned you money. You can finally give yourself a decent wage. Still not equal to minimum wage, but it beats working at Target.

8) As business continues to pick up, you contemplate hiring someone. After all, you've been working six days a week, twelve hours a day for about a year. You want to be able to come in late or leave early once in a while. You run the numbers and ...

Say fuck it, and go back to Target.

Just kidding, you hire someone. You pay them a bit more than minimum wage because you want someone good and you think minimum wage is too low. So, you pay them 12 bucks an hour, and they keep all the tips (naturally).

9) Business continues to get better, and you expand. You open up another brewpub and hire more people to run it.

Now see what happens if:

10) The city raises the minimum wage to $15.

11) You give all of your employees a five dollar raise (remember, none of them made minimum wage before). You might be able to get by with paying them minimum, but would have trouble getting new, good people at that wage (and you want to make sure your more experienced people make more than that).

12) You run the numbers and realize you can't make a decent income without increasing your prices. So, you do.

13) Customers walk into the store and say "Wow -- $8 a pint. What a ripoff. Let's just buy a six pack and drink it at home. I saw some good beer from Descuttes on sale".

14) Your expansion plans are scuttled. The place you were considering is leased to a bank. You consider opening up a new store in Shoreline.

OK, a bit of an exaggeration, but not really. Go talk to a small business (take your pick). A few of them get seed money from some other business (e. g. they made a bunch of money in software and decided to open a restaurant) but generally speaking, this is how it goes. Most small business owners make way less than minimum wage at first. If they are successful, they expand, and can make a decent living. Typically they make less than your recent software grad, but still, a decent living.

I'm not saying saying this or that about the specific proposal, I'm just saying that calling businesses like these "leaches" because they pay some of their employees something close to minimum wage is ridiculous. Likewise, the cost can not be simply measured by focusing on only those that make less than the minimum wage. This is one of the good things about raising the minimum wage (it raises the wages of lots more people). But this is a double edged sword, and assuming that there would be no cost to businesses (or no loss of business if they raised prices accordingly) is really naive. Of course there is a cost. The big question is how to do this while balancing the needs of small businesses. I'm not sure if this proposal makes the most sense, but I think it is reasonable. More than anything, I think the guy who proposed it deserves more respect. My guess is the people who bad mouth him have never tried to open a small business, or know people who have.

@107 - I don't know what you are talking about? My point was I have a business. It is my job. You say it isn't valid if I can't pay what you demand I pay, despite the fact that my employees (the majority) are not on any public assistance and are not living in poverty.

You are saying if we don't do what is demanded (raise wages 60%) to support the people who are unable to create any viable skill set that would earn them more money themselves, then none of have jobs.

You are choosing the winners and the losers. If I lose my business, it will be a loss to my community and my employees, I'll get over it. I'll have a lot more free time and less stress.

@116 - Why such hate? Did some small business owner fire you or something? You've called us all liars so what difference would it make if we showed you our own particular books? Curious though, how much should a business owner be allowed to earn on their investment?

Again, not that you are rational about this, however, no minimum wage earners have showed us their personal financial information, nor should they be goaded into doing that. We have survey information. There is plenty of that also available about small businesses. You can obtain that information easily. Not that the data will matter because in your mind we are all liars. You are aware of the failure rate of small business, aren't you?

@89

You may be bloated, but I'm really starting to like where you are going. Really.

@108 Thank you.

@128
It should be very apparent that 116 is a 15Now Shill.

@117 - Oh please. You're going to, with a straight face, say that tipping is just a "social norm" and that folks are free to stop tipping and that they're just imagining the look from their servers? I've traveled in lots of countries where there is no tipping as well as ones where there is tipping...and none of the latter except the US have the kind of entitlement that US folks seem to have about deserving a tip each and every time.

Honestly, I have no guilt about not tipping, but I DO tip (and pretty well) because I can afford to and I do think that in general tipped employees are paid too little, and I try and fill a bit of the gap in since I can. But I don't give tips simply because a person is doing the job that they are paid to do. I don't get tipped for doing my job well (nor do I get the much celebrated "bonus" that lots of people think all of us are getting), the guy at Home Depot doesn't get tipped well for doing his job well...why, if the minimum wage increases across the board do we plan to still endorse the social norm of tipping? And please...you're kidding yourself if you think that tipped positions will be putting signs on the doors encouraging people to stop tipping once minimum wage goes up.

In case you think I'm imagining all those arguments for tipping to make a fair wage...most of these articles are also advocating raising the base wage (and the unspoken conclusion is that tipping is necessary because the wage is poor...so one would assume logically if the wage is better that tipping is no longer required)

http://foodriot.com/2013/11/21/tip-serve…

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/201…

http://jezebel.com/5982011/fuck-you-if-y…

Such a fucking shit show...oh well most service work will be done by robots eventually and we'll be back to square one...guaranteed minimum income is the only way to solve income inequality.

If we could figure out a way for the targets and the Walmarts of the area to pay for the added costs to small business, that would be a win/win as everyone would still have that $15/min and it would also level the playing field a bit between small business and big business.

@126 This narrative says more than a lot of stuff on this thread, and I'm glad you shared it. I think its assumptions are common to a lot of the small business owners writing here who don't want to pay $15.

It's great that brewpub guy had a business idea and had friends and family with enough cash to support him. Why does he assume that therefore expansion is his right, regardless of whether his idea and investment is profitable enough for him to pay employees a living wage? Why does he assume that expansion within a particular period of time is his right? Why does he assume that his timeline for expansion is more important than wages?

I know the idea of expansion is that one day soon you'll bump up the profit margin to the point where you and your family live easily. Clearly that is the idea, because it's not about doing what you love, or you'd be satisfied with just one brewpub, and it's not about altruism, or you'd care about employee wages. This business model, as you write it, buys the owner's access to expanding profits (and there's no upper cap on those) at the direct expense of his workers' access to a living wage. How is that right? Are you really sure that people 'just don't understand'?

@133 and all

Yes. It is a fucking shit show and it is going to get much worse until cooler heads prevail. There is no winning, it is not black and white. And legislation is not written in an internet forum. Seattle is part of the ongoing national test study for the minimum wage debate. Locally, we haven't yet heard the other side. The name calling, condescension and ridicule takes this serious subject to an ugly place. Devaluing someone's opinion is not how Seattleites conduct themselves. I truly wish we could get past the first layer to the meat of the issues.

I am listening and what I hear is this:

Pro tips as wages: Many servers are not the low wage workers we are trying to help.

Against tips as wages: nationwide, there are unjust laws related to service workers. Don't roll back where Washington is already ahead.

Got it. Now let's try to find a solution that will address both of these concerns.

@135

Wait, so small business owners are supposed to forego making money because they're "just doing what they love?"

But those employees....gotta make sure they're making good money, because they're just trying to make rent!

Sarcasm aside, you're demonstrating a lack of knowledge about a generally fundamental business principle. If you do not build value of some kind in your business, it will eventually die. Unless your plan is to work until you die (and then watch the business die) or to let it close when you no longer have the energy, businesses must grow to retain value. The goal of most intelligently run businesses is to eventually have the capital and commercial value to be sold to someone else when you retire...or possibly passed on to children. But a business that does none of these things is merely a dead end. Why would someone put in so much blood and sweat (as was narrated above) to make the exact same living as working for someone else. No risk!

@136 is right.

All the rhetoric and yelling and screaming needs to chill out if we can actually have a productive conversation on dealing with the minimum wage debate. I see amazing opportunity in this if it is done right.

There is a collective agreement that minimum wages should go up. Small businesses are already saying they currently pay above minimum wage. Where they part ways with $15Now movement is to it Starting January 15th for all businesses and organizations. For restaurants they are paying taxes on the tip income whether their serving staff claims it or not and there is legitimate concern especially if their servers are already averaging $20 in tips per hour while their back end staff don't have the same luxury. All employers pay additional percentage in taxes for all employees. So $15 is never just $15. Budgets will have to adjust just like in a normal household.

The real question is how do we do it with the lowest impact on the very people it is supposed to help and the community at large. If the end goal is to get everyone not only to $15 an hour but also have it be sustainable, shouldn't that be the focus? If a phase in is already a possibility how does it get implemented? Who determines what is a small business? Can we go by existing parameters? such as what the SBA determines to be a small business? Couldn't we start with a smaller collective increase as of January that is in line with living wage and inflation for small businesses and non-profits of the same size and immediate increase for all the actual abusers such as Walmart? Then have the small businesses move towards the same end goal of $15 within 5 years? That allows non-profits to adjust their ability to get funding. Small businesses would need to compete anyways for high skilled quality workers and also prepare themselves for the inevitable hike and adjust their business models. If you look at organizations that help the homeless they would also have an opportunity to adjust their thresholds for what income levels are considered under the line of Poverty.

@139

Poverty kills.

Researchers Link Deaths to Social Ills. New York Times.

"Death by Poverty?" Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health.

Poverty or income inequality as predictor of mortality: longitudinal
cohort study. British Medical Journal.

Urban poverty and infant mortality rate
disparities. Journal of the National Medical Association.

You're welcome. No doubt you'll tell yourself all those kids dying in poverty in the US deserved it. Your contempt for low wage workers is why 15Now is going to pass in a landslide.

@137 You... didn't understand what I wrote. I couldn't care less whether business owners are doing what they love or not. My point is precisely that love is NOT what motivates business owners to expansion, despite what we hear about 'lifelong dreams', 'blood and sweat', 'passion', etc. It's about money, let's be clear. My point is that this principle of ever-expanding profits, what you are calling a 'generally fundamental business principle,' is NOT a god-given right *regardless of what business owners pay their workers*. Otherwise, I could say 'actually, my business is only profitable if I pay workers in vouchers on good weeks, and the job market's fine with that, so, that's how it will be. After all, I took this 'risk' by borrowing money off my wealthy relatives, so I deserve profit and I deserve it now!'

Employees who are guaranteed a minimum wage pegged to realistic living costs are not going to be making 'good money'. They are going to be making enough to survive. If a business owner with access to capital has to wait another year to expand, or come up with a different business model, they still have multiple paths out of their temporary low-income situation. They don't get to exploit others just because they had a bad idea or a bad season.

Diner, you don't understand business owners either. You're saying that they should just "do what they love" because clearly trying to grow the business shows that they are just in it for the $$$. Tell me...why do you think MOST people work. Clearly the folks backing 15Now would not be interested in a small business owner telling them "I can only pay you $13...but you'll be doing something you love!"

Just as their workers do not exist simply to earn the business owner money, the business owner does not exist simply to pay others and take financial risks on their behalf. Businesses try and expand themselves because that's part of the goal of a business. It grows, it becomes sustainable, maybe it gets sold someday. You're right, it's not a labor of love...and you're also right that you clearly don't care whether the business owner is doing well or not. You seem to love this idea that if a business can't be run the way that you think it should, that it deserves to be shuttered. But please, by all means, go start your own and show all of us how easy it is to do it "right."

I suspect that people are not eager to see the multiple paths out that business owners have...a prominent one includes shuttering the business and letting Starbucks move into the empty space.

p.s. Do you really think that everyone who starts a business is just borrowing money off their rich relatives? Go say that to the face of a random small business owner.

@142... Dearie me, you really aren't getting my point. Let me make this super clear. I do not think that business owners should just do what they love. I think business owners should work to viable business plans that start with a few basic inviolable rules, including paying a living wage, keeping insurance, following health and safety regulations, and paying tax. These rules are or need to be the price of admission. If you cannot do those things and make a profit that you are comfortable with in relation to your risk, then it's not your party. Sorry. I don't think it's easy. And I don't think it's about what anyone 'deserves'. It's about making sure that those with access to capital don't get on the profit expansion train by exploiting those who don't have access to capital.

I do not think that everyone who starts a business borrows money from rich relatives. Some borrow from friends, some borrow from banks or find other investors, some have their own funds. But the example we started with @126 explicitly mentioned borrowing from relatives and friends who are okay with a slow payback. That's a lucky guy, don't you think? Surely you know not every minimum wage earner has those kinds of friends and relatives? And so why should his workers make poverty wages in order to further subsidise his climb?

@140 those articles you posted define poverty at a certain level. Seattle current minimum wage is already above that. And everyone here is trying to raise it more.

@141 the low wage worker has as many paths to higher income as most business owners. It's a lot easier to educate, or train yourself into a better job than it is to make a business successful.

And there's more to it than just money. Many of these small business owners could be making more and working less for a larger company. Many left better paying jobs. Part of it is the potential for reward, yes. But a larger part is the ability to do what they love. I think you would be surprised if you found out how much the average small business owner actually makes. It definitely is a 'labor of love'. And profits are not the end all be all of everyone's efforts.

What they provide the community goes beyond monetary value as well. So many contribute culture and diversity. But they have to pay a good wage to do so, no one is arguing that. The only thing being discussed is that it shouldn't happen overnight, it should be phased in.

@144

Nope.

"40 percent of Seattle’s minimum-wage earners live in families at or below
the federal poverty level".

And going above the federal poverty line is in now way a living wage for Seattle.

Even if this did harm small business (it doesn't) and even if it replaces hiptser bars and boutique bike shops with corporate chains (it doesn't), lifting the families of 40,000 to 50,000 workers out of poverty is worth it.

@145, I fully regret ever mentioning love, but let me try this one more time. I do not care whether business owners love what they do or not. If they are my friends, I care that they are happy, but when it comes to making legislation, it means nothing. My point is this, and this only. When a business owner expands from one shop/restaurant/brewpub to two, the expansion is about the owner's profit. That's fine. But the argument (see @126) that poverty wages are helpful because they allow the business-owner-pursuing-his-dreams to rapidly expand really doesn't hold any emotional weight with me. I mentioned love because I wanted to be clear that we are setting the 'labor of love' appeal aside at that point.

You would like to bring the 'labor of love' appeal back, it seems. Well, it's lovely for business owners when they do what they love and no doubt spiritually great that they are willing to work for low income themselves for that purpose. This means nothing about whether they should pay other people a living wage or not.

I agree that the thrust of the debate should now be about phasing in. I am not sure @126 or @142 are on this same page, though. Lots of people are still arguing that workers should be grateful to business owners for providing poverty wage jobs. It's nonsense. As you know, business owners who participate in that system help to lower the wage market to the point where people can't survive. No matter how many microbrews, tchotchkes or special coffee beans are now for sale, poverty wages are bad for 'culture and diversity'.

You cannot seriously think you will be addressing poverty in its entirety by raising the minimum wage. If we are going by 'living wage' models, those models must take into account people working full time. So I'm right.

And you have no idea whether or not it will hurt small business because it hasn't been done. You have no record of a 61% increase in minimum wage across the board. All you have is the removal of a tip credit. Minimum wage should be higher. But it should reach that level responsibly.

@148

We once made restaurants raise tipped employees' wages by 85%. It has been done. It had ZERO effect. Eighty-five percent. ZERO impact. It has been done. You can keep saying it has never been done, and every time, you will be told again, it HAS been done.

Nobody ever said this will address poverty in its entirety. Since when must any policy address any problem in its entirety? We'll never let that stop us from making the world a little bit better. It will lift thousands out of poverty. Thousands. Tens of thousands. That's more than enough benefit to balance the purely hypothetical losses that didn't happen in Australia or San Francisco or Washington in past wage increases. And beyond the workers in Seattle who will get out of poverty, it will push wages up across the board, and outside of the city. Other cities will be inspired to raise their wages to $15/hr too.

You know how small business owners could have reached higher wages responsibly? Pay your workers more. What was stopping you? You guys chose to do nothing and now it's going to go to an up or down vote and we know how that will turn out. The wage will take effect January 15, 2015.

You all saw this coming last year. You could have started phasing it in then, but instead you want to see if you can get the Mayor to override the will of the voters. Problem is, Murray isn't that clever and he doesn't owe you much. So, get ready. You've been warned.

You should have seen this coming when Martin Luther King demanded $2/hr in 1963. That's over $15/hr in today's dollars. That's for the whole country, not just Seattle. The responsible thing would have been to start making plans for this 50 years ago. You can't crush people under your boot forever: you have to have an exit strategy.

Smarm seems to be the go-to rhetorical safety blanket for the anti-15'ers, with Seattle91 being the most straightforward example. The essay "On Smarm" was referenced on Slog a few months ago, and it almost seems like required reading now.

"What is smarm, exactly? Smarm is a kind of performance—an assumption of the forms of seriousness, of virtue, of constructiveness, without the substance. Smarm is concerned with appropriateness and with tone. Smarm disapproves.

Smarm would rather talk about anything other than smarm. Why, smarm asks, can't everyone just be nicer?"

Look at how Seattle91 pretends to be the adult in the room, exhibiting a deep concern that, "...name calling, condescension and ridicule takes this serious subject to an ugly place." She then reminds those posters presenting factual evidence that, "Devaluing someone's opinion is not how Seattleites conduct themselves."

Yet, when pushed, she finally reveals her reactionary position. "The only answer to an unbalanced amount of idealism is pragmatism at every turn," she says. "And, just a reminder," she reprimands, "I am not against $15. I am against $15Now," while also taking time to remind us that, "[Sawant] doesn’t abide by capitalism as a rule. This is poison."

Seattle91's ideological slant couldn't be more obvious - this debate is more about Sawant and 15Now than helping anyone out of poverty. Her concern is empty; it's all smarm. The bully is playing the victim. They'll try to flip the narrative again, calling labor and Sawant the real bullies for demanding a living wage, for trying to make sure workers actually get paid $15 instead of $12.50, or even $10, dressed up as $15. That's just the nature of smarm.

Removing a tip credit is not the same as raising the minimum wage. Retail and manufacturing employees did not see wages go up. So again, it hasn't been done before.

And if (by your own research) Seattle's current minimum wage is already above the poverty line, I fail to see how increasing it will bring people out of poverty.

Don't ever talk about someone's employees when you don't have the first clue. My lowest paid employee makes $20 before benefits and bonuses. My highest paid clear more than myself most months.

You're having trouble reading even your own research. It's too bad you have such a closed mind and such hate for small business owners. Try introducing yourself and meeting a couple to see their perspective. It's good to see both sides of the argument.

You're more than welcome to come down to my shop and have a chat. But please remember, I am a proponent of raising the minimum wage.

Your report also says that 8% of minimum wage workers are on food stamps and only 2% are on welfare so there goes your 'gov't subsidized labor' argument.

@151

No comment. Your errors speak for themselves.

@152

Only 8%. Only!

See, you don't give a shit about poor people. That's why you're going to lose when this is put to a vote. You're on the wrong side. There's a couple dozen "business friendly" states where they pay $7.25 per hour. It's not like there won't be anywhere for you to go.

The corner you're painted into is that you want to do business in a dynamic, cosmopolitan, creative blue city, like Seattle, but you don't want to pay the price. And low wage places like Houston, where capitalism gets all respect, are no place for you to do business. This is your fundamental contradiction. The very people you have such contempt for are the ones who create the kind of market you can thrive in. What you don't want to believe is that you need us more than we need you. Watch what happens when it comes time to vote.

153 - awful discussion tactic. "Your errors speak for themselves?"

What are you disagreeing with? The wage paid at the business, that tip credit didn't effect factory workers...

@154

You know what's an awful tactic? Staring down the barrel of an initiative for a solid $15/hr to take effect January 15, which enjoys 68% support of likely voters, and not offering any data at all to undermine it. No facts. Just fear.

Instead of showing actual facts that would convince us that jobs will be lost or businesses destroyed, we're instead told that poverty isn't a big deal and low paid workers don't deserve a living wage and they're lazy and stupid anyway. Oh, and Meinert has it all figured out: he insists he really supports $15/hr while pretending that his cutouts for tip penalties and health insurance penalties and who knows what else don't in fact mean he's saying he won't have to pay $15/hr.

That's the plan? You guys need some facts. You need some data. At least open your books and show us how this pencils out.

You know, Linda Derschang's favorite book is Atlas Shrugged. I think it's time to go Galt. Sort of like when you're losing at Monopoly and so you tip the board over. Because 15Now is going to pass if somebody doesn't think of something. And then the momentum is going to really build.

You got someone to post numbers in the other thread you're commenting on. I'm assuming you just don't like them...or you don't want to believe them...or you believe they're being made up to make your argument look bad. Either way, you're ignoring them, and that seems to imply that no matter what numbers you are given, you don't actually care what they are.

(And p.s. even servers are commenting that they make money just fine with tips with current wage...$15Now should cede the tip credit argument and make their argument without it. Many servers are doing just fine and I don't think really want to give people ammunition to reexamine tipping. Factory workers, cleaning staff, unskilled labor; those are the people you should be making this case for. Drop the tip credit argument, the servers are going to be fine, your argument and case will be stronger for it)

But I digress. Here, I'll paste those numbers (purportedly from the owner of Liberty) below:

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You didn't understand my point. I meant, even if I just posted it somewhere, how would people see it? How would people know about it? Want me to post it here? Sure - here:

Total Cost of Goods Sold (TCoGS) = 94.2% of Income

- Labor: 27.2% (Includes Liberty's portion of payroll taxes, which is $53K)
- CoGS - Labor = 67%

So, this means that if my labor goes up by 60%, without being able to affect my costs much, if at all, that will cause my Labor to then be 43.5% of my TCoGS... This then puts me UNDER by 16%, BEFORE my specific CoGS rise.

The assumption, after talking to my purveyors is that our costs will go up by no less than 10%...So, if we add ANOTHER 10% on my CoGS, that'll add another 7% to my TCoGS, which will then put me UNDER my income now by 24%. So, before make ONE DOLLAR, at $15/hr. MW, without any carveouts for the income that servers make in tips, I am under by 24%, which means that I'll have to raise my prices by 24%.

You wanted numbers? There they are. I am looking at my General P/L of 2013.

“Okay. Do it.”

“Okay”, I did.

There you go. My prices go up by 24% before I add ONE PENNY in profit…So, if by following this model I add the ~6% in net profits…that means that I’ll have to raise my prices by 30%...just to stay even. Thusly, that Gin & Tonic? It’s now $6.50. That Moscow Mule? $10.50.

So. There’r the numbers. 30%.

Now, some restaurants with more controlled costs compared to Liberty will be able to make this number be lower – perhaps even by 10%. Then, if they are able to have a greater net profit, they may be able to eat a little of their profits and lower the total cost and thus rise in prices…they may be closer to 15% in a price increase…

You wanted prices? There you are.

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What If We Made Only Businesses with $1 Billion in Yearly Sales Pay $15 Minimum Wage?

All the locations would be single location businesses with ownership split up between layers of Management Companies & Holding companies. The parent company would not be the one hiring the workers. Yes, I do know how this works.
Just like you have your various businesses set up Dave.

70% support among voters for raising the Minimum Wage.
15now is filling their ballot initiative Monday.

Ramp up to $15,
Employers pay the $15 wage
Don't force workers to pay their own wages out of their tips.