@99

Btw, down-thread I wrote "(Assuming you live alone.)"
Which was not correct factually but that was my assumption.

If I had known right away that you had no solitude, that would have made things different.

And I would have said that "Yes, gay bars sound perfect for you". Lacking solitude at home you do have a reason to be able to go out by yourself to a bar.

There are not enough words in the English language to begin to articulate how thankful I am that this was posted, because I've seen similar articles before (although admittedly from sites like Jezebel where the question "Why was my bachelorette party at the local bear bar poorly received?" will get a round of applause rather than confusion) and it utterly boggles the mind why there is a (sadly somewhat growing, though still small) trend of crying "sexism!" when gay/bi men want to get with... surprise! Other gay/bi men! The analogy of you standing there watching lesbians have sex and then being offended at being asked to leave is spot-on. This is a brilliant post, Dan. Thank you again!

Thank you!! The ignorance his piece displayed was unlike anything i've read on HuffPost. He publicly attacked an historically marginalized community without any real insight into who and what that community was. Barry told me that he "heard" from "Friends" (including someone with the twitter name "buckangel" hopefully not the same buckangel we all know) that the leather community was transphobic and misogynistic. One of his friends told me that she believed the leather community was misogynist without anything to back it up. What kind of journalist writes a piece like that based almost entirely on what he heard from others?

Thank you!! The ignorance his piece displayed was unlike anything i've read on HuffPost. He publicly attacked an historically marginalized community without any real insight into who and what that community was. Barry told me that he "heard" from "Friends" (including someone with the twitter name "buckangel" hopfully not the same buckangel we all know) that the leather community was transphobic and misogynistic. One of his friends told me that she believed the leather community was misogynist without anything to back it up. What kind of journalist writes a piece like that based almost entirely on what he heard from others?

@73... I was responding to Dan calling a ( unregistered ) female
Writer@31, an idiot/ @34/ then as the posts got more nasty towards women fromen/ no comment came from him.. That he has supported GLBT is relevant how in this context?

Hey 86, I sure as shit don't dress to attract men, but I still get hit on because there are some men who will hit on anything with tits in hopes of getting a hook-up. And telling them that I am gay isn't ever a deterrent, it becomes a "challenge" for them. They always think that *they* will be the one to "convert" me. Nope, not gonna happen.

Author's question is flawed from the outset:

"How do groups that have traditionally been marginalized create a safe-space for themselves without simultaneously enacting the same exclusionary policies they've been fighting against?"

Such groups announce by saying "PRIVATE PARTY - GAY MEN ONLY".

Then when those same gay men go to work (at whatever they do in the world) they observe the law and treat everyone (i.e. women, hetero men and whatever else) fairly/equally.

Seems like the author just wanted to write an article.

@108
Just to clarify, since maybe I am misunderstanding, what do YOU mean when YOU use the term "hit on"?

Is it
1. "Hi, I'm Joe. Is this seat taken?"
2. "Hi, I'm Joe...Is this seat taken?....Uh...Beautiful day wasn't it?"
3. "Hi, I'm Joe...Is this seat taken?....uh...Beautiful day wasn't it?....Gosh can I get you a refill?"
4. "Hi, I'm Joe...Hot dress, babe...You know you have really fabulous tits."
5. "Hi, I'm Joe and super-cool. Like to suck my cock out in the parking lot?"

So where does "hit on" start?

Why the big surprise that women might be eroticised by men only
Parties? Fruit flies/ fag hags- ugly name tags/
Straight men openly express being eroticised by thoughts of lesbian sex.
Imposing oneself into situations where one is not welcome/
Yep rude.. And some women behaving disrespectfully towards gay men/ also rude..
Not sure I'd find walking into a room of men sucking each other off, all that erotic/ but the freedom ( one assumes) gay men have when they congregate , I find erotic.

@110: I'm certain that Marrena is glad to know you approve of her lifestyle choices. Good thing you followed that through, to be certain that her behavior was acceptable.

And women know what 'hit on' means. We're adults, we know when someone is just making conversation and when they're trying it on. Pretty sure Izzy doesn't need to explain herself to you, pal.

Barry's piece is just an irresponsible first-person blog. It is neither journalism nor well-informed. He can write whatever he wants. The fact that a respected outlet like HuffPo deemed this reportage and representative is disappointing. Barry's getting credentials for one media outlet then submitting to an unapproved (by IML) second publication with a different agenda is unethical; it doesn't give IML a choice in whether they want this representation from an unvetted contributor. Pieces like this make it that much harder for experienced, conscientious media to gain the trust of their subjects.

@112
Lighten up.
Learn to read.

@75 - Thank you.

And for the rest of you ladies who cannot draw a conclusion from the VERY specific set of circumstances outlined in my original post (48), I will now spell it out for you v-e-r-y s-l-o-w-l-y: I did not say all women everywhere have to be kicked out of all gay bars everywhere. In fact, I made reference specifically to the Seattle Eagle bar. And I conceded that you gals had already polluted every other bar in town, I just wanted to see one - the Seattle Eagle - be left alone to the gays.

But of course, Miss Poor Comprehension chimed in and made the usual claim that as long as one woman out of 3.5 billion is the exception to the rule, then rest of them get a free pass. I never said every woman wants to go to the Eagle on Bearracuda night and screech her stupid head off for attention - just one did that. It would have been a completely different story if it was a hunky, hairy bear laughing loudly in the crowd because that is what the event was for! You won't get it, though. You will just dress up next weekend with a pretty dress and cutie-pie bows in your hair and titter the night away at the Seattle Eagle just because you're a wild and awesome girl. Tee hee hee!

On more thing for LavaGirl; what the hell is up with the poor sentence structure and the stupid slashes? Do you believe that by murdering English as a written language that somehow makes you a more impressive personality? It doesn't. It makes you look uneducated and sloppy. Maybe this is the new feminist code you use to alert the hordes of your latest screed. In that case, very clever but unnecessary. I can tell by the content of your message that you are not someone I would spend five minutes of my life talking to.

Gee Montex, I'm real upset bout that/ I was sure hoping you'd call me over/ we'd have some D&M/ and maybe I could steer you towards looking at what really is the problem you have with women..

And Montex, just set up a bar in your garage/ in that space you can keep those pesky creatures with vaginas and bows out.

He posted a "politicians apology" today (i.e., I'm sorry people felt offended or that people felt like I was focusing on the leather community. Really, all gay sex parties are horribly misogynist)

The IML community is not accepting his apology.

@78

In MOST gay male spaces you will be welcome, but you need to respect the space and remember that it's not for you in the same way a lesbian space isn't for me. We need our safe spaces because let's be honest, most straight people are cool with us theoretically, but actual direct exposure to gay culture is icky or treated as an anthropology exhibit. We need to have our spaces where we can be ourself, whatever that is.

Speaking of which, your first reason is terrible, a straight woman hitting on guys in a gay space is guaranteed to make people uncomfortable, even if you're managing to be 100% accurate. As a bi man, it would make me uncomfortable in a gay space. We don't go to gay spaces to be hit on by straight people much like you visit a gay bar to avoid being hit on by straight guys, given that it's also supposed to be our safe space, that's pretty much the worst thing you can do.

2 and 3 are fine, as long as you respect that you're not who the space is for, have your drinks in peace and meet your friends.

4 is iffy, if curiosity is sated by mingling and making friends and being respectful in our space then it's fine, but we are not anthropology exhibits, we are not spectacles for your amusement.

Please stop 1 immediately, and make sure to always ask yourself whether you're being disrespectful to the space. Maybe consider whether your behavior would be acceptable if an outsider to a women's space was doing it.

@97 When one can go out to drink without getting hit on, it's a STRAIGHT male privilege, in a gay space going out to drink usually means that you're gonna get hit on. Just because he doesn't understand why, doesn't mean that it's coming from the same place, consider that maybe for him being hit on is WHY he goes out to drink in gay spaces. Not that it's wrong to call him out for not understanding why, but it's silly to assume that a gay man is acting out a point of male privilage which is unique to straight men.

And can we stop the misogyny in the comment section? Yes some straight women do not know how to act properly in gay spaces, that doesn't mean that we should generalize women, nor trivialize their issues. Yes, they have straight privilege and certainly there are plenty that don't know how to act in gay spaces, but they have their own issues with privilege and just like they don't understand the gay experience, we don't understand the experience of being women.

Both gay men and straight women are equally capable of marginalizing each other.

@25 a bit late but no one answered your question about orgy etiquette -- even at open door orgies there is an understood door policy, some are pangender (anyone gets in), some are for a specific kink or understood to be a certain demographic, furthermore within the sex party there is generally an "ask first" code -- "asking" can simply be eye contact and a slow approach, but someone who gets a "no" which can include a hand brushing you aside or a shake of the head who persists will rightly get thrown out. A transman who has undergone hormone and top surgery to affirm his gender will appear typically male and generally be welcome at a gay male-only sex party, phalloplasty is not a requirement. Many cis males have such tiny cocks you can't tell the difference from a few feet away, and many sex parties are basically hand jobs and body rubs, too crowded and not comfy enough for advanced stuff though one can often see some wilder stuff over by the slings.

@97 I was replying to a straight guy when I was talking about male privilege. He was doing his #notallmen routine, and I let him keep talking and now every women in this thread knows he's super-creepy.

And I reassure you, the #1 reason I gave is a valid one. The gay bar I used to go to here in Boston is complicated. It had straight nights as well, and I only went specifically on crossdresser nights. The mistress of ceremonies encouraged me to come and would nudge me towards those she knew were interested. And I didn't hit on drag queens.

Also I haven't been back in a couple years--I'm in a happy relationship and no longer looking--it would cause feelings of jealousy too. Now I just go out alone to the occasional straight bar and fend off the menfolk.

Oy, I meant @122 in my previous post.

@121, if women are allowed into these bars, then they are not really gay spaces. Maybe gays go to certain bars to meet up, but if it's a public space then unless you are the bar owner, what right have you got to say who goes there/ or tell them what their motivation should be?
Any bar has people in it whose behaviour may piss off others in the bar/ in that situation, you just leave the bar.
Gross assumptions of power going on here. From you, from other men on this thread. The rudeness towards women is just amazing.
I'm not saying that having a gay space is not acceptable. I am saying that assuming you or others can tell someone how they have to be/ who they have to be, in a public bar- is just assuming way too much power.
If you want a man only environment , then create one in your own houses. Keep Women, , African Americans, Jews out (wherever your prejudice leans too).
I'm so pissed by the disgusting put downs of women here. Replace the word " Women"( or fruit flies/ fag hags/ c....),in many of these posts here, with "Jews "or "African American" and all hell would break loose.. But no, when it's Women being demeaned a slightly raised protest. Nothing more.
Some disgusting attitudes.

I think that the same etiquette -- if not gay, be cautious (or absent) in gay bars, same for lesbians etc -- applies in straight spaces. If you are not open to the prevailing social customs of the place, be aware that you may not be in the right place. So a man who goes into a sports bar (and doesn't want to enter into a conversation about whatever team is on the TV) may expect to get some funny looks. Or realize that someone is severely depressed.

So a person is inappropriate if s/he goes into a straight space like a bar and doesn't want to be willing to engage in some casual conversation. And if none of the people in that bar are interesting enough to talk to, go to a different bar where that place meets your requirements.

So just to get a level playing field, what does "hit on" mean? Where does "hit on" start?
Where along that continuum? Where does "casual conversation" end and "hit on" start?

Woman is sitting at the bar. Empty seat beside her. Is it:

1. "Hi, I'm Dan. Is this seat taken?"
2. "Hi, I'm Dan...Is this seat taken?....Uh...Beautiful day wasn't it?"
3. "Hi, I'm Dan...Is this seat taken?....Uh...Beautiful day wasn't it?....Uhm...Gosh can I get you a refill?"
4. "Hi, I'm Dan...Is this seat taken?...Hot dress, babe...You know you have really fabulous tits."
5. "Hi, I'm Dan...Is this seat taken?....I'm super-cool....Like to suck my cock out in the parking lot?"

So where does "hit on" start?

And just btw, do you really think that men LIKE to hit on women? Like to always have to make conversation? To always have to fit into the male role to be the aggressor? Dream on babe.

@123
Please get off your high horse about men. It is so fucking pretentious.

I asked why you would drink alone in a PUBLIC bar and I even asked whether it was that you had no place alone at home. (Go read.)

But then you go off on some weird BS about whatever when you could have simply said is "I go out to a public place to be alone because I don't have a private space at home where I can be alone."

That would have answered my question very easily. But instead you have to do your condescending woman thing about men. Fuck that.

@126, 127. You really don't think women hit on men in bars?
They do. If they want to. Sometimes they just wanna sit in a bar, amongst other people, and be alone.
None of those lines you suggested sound at all good. Just try some inner intuition first. Look around, see if women are also looking around. See if any women notice you.
Then , just start with hi.

@ 125

We're talking explicitly about gay male spaces and this rule holds just as well for lesbian spaces.

I'm sorry but no, you're the one who has the privilege here, but at the very least you should recognize that EVERY marginalized group deserves their safe spaces, a space where they get to be free from what privilege does, a place where they can simply be the norm. This is true of African americans, gaysians, women, and gay men.

Safe spaces isn't exclusionary necessarily, but it means that you need to respect the group the space is designed for. If you can't, then you shouldn't be there.

Let's be frank here, women are as much a group that protest is raised about as any of the others you mentioned. The fact that you consider having a safe space for a group without privilege, any group without privilege, equivalent to privileged people excluding those less privileged most spaces means that you both know nothing about the struggles of the gay movement and furthermore know nothing about the struggles of gender equality, because establishing safe spaces for women IS a major part of feminism.

Your straight privilege is showing, educate yourself on gay issues before speaking on this, and educate yourself on feminism while you're at it.

Meanwhile, people who aren't gay men are still welcome in most gay male spaces, as long as you chose to respect us. Those spaces that you aren't welcome are usually sexual in nature and then it becomes a matter of consent.

@128
Please don't act the innocent.
Women only "hit on" good-looking men.
I am not good-looking.
Thanks for reminding me.

My question is (and you refuse to take it seriously) what does "Hit on" mean? To you or anyone? The way this other woman "Marrena" -- aka "I vant to be alone!" -- was acting (and yes she was posturing big time) makes it sound as if "Hi" = "Hit on".

So my question is real, as I wouldn't want to hurt the tender sensibilities of a woman sitting at a public bar having a drink if I make a huge faux pas by saying "Hello."

@123

Ok, i'm sure that was aimed at me though mine shows as 121.

Oh you're right, I misread him. So ya that is coming from a place of male privilege. Though I will agree with him on one thing, male gender roles can be suffocating. It did seem like something a gay guy could say if they appreciate the attention.

I'm sorry but none of that really excuses the behavior unless said person was essentially acting as a go between. If the bi guy makes the first move, either directly or in practice then it's ok, otherwise don't. It's really uncomfortable for a woman to be hitting on men in a gay male space, not just for the people involved but for everyone around them, it makes you seem predatory.

@lava-girl: I will agree with you on one thing, the general misogyny in this comment thread is pretty disappointing as I stated before.

"Male privilege"
"Hit on"

Utter cant. (No pun).

ummm, ya the expectation that you can hit on a woman pretty much wherever regardless of whether or not she displays openness to it is straight male privilege.

What you said earlier about things like her clothes telling the story for example, fashion sense displays personality, not whether she's open entertaining a potential sexual partner. That's body language and what she says. If she doesn't indicate that she wants to talk to you, respect that.

@133
Please don't patronize; please just answer the fucking question.
And maybe learn how to read?
And get a sense of humor?

@131--Honey, I AM predatory. Also, let me explain. In this gay bar, in a specific room it was crossdressers' night. I was not going out in the general bar area and hitting on your standard gay man. I was hitting on men in dresses, and I left before the queens and chasers showed up at midnight. You can ask Dan--the odds are pretty high that a crossdresser (as opposed to a trans woman or drag queen) is mostly straight and bisexual only through circumstance (i.e., that many women won't have sex with them).

If there were other places to easily meet them, I wouldn't have gone there. But it's hard, even in a big city. Crossdressers (understandably) are pretty shy about congregating.

@134

I can't answer for women because I'm not a woman. "It's just a joke", isn't a defense if it's a joke that reinforces privilege rather then ridicules it.

@135

Ok, then that's not really a gay space even if it IS technically a gay bar. That I can understand, but it's not really a reason to be hitting on guys in a gay space, it's just a space traditionally thought of as gay that really isn't.

@136.
First of all, I didn't say "It's just a joke" so don't distort things.
Then, I have no idea what you are talking about what would lead you think I have "male privilege"?

1. I asked Ms. I-vant-to-be-alone why she likes to go to a public space to drink to be alone. Finally, after much BS,she was able to explain.

2. Then I ask what does "HIT ON" actually mean? I tried to make it easy to offer a continuum of social gambits. Some were OBVIOUSLY absurd and in fact so absurd as to be HUMOROUS. But I guess you didn't get them.

Is asking questions "male privilege"?

Dear not my name or yours:
Please take a nap. You're pretty cranky. Also, maybe consider how much people enjoy civil discourse.

And don't tell people simultaneously to "learn to read," "answer the fucking question," and to "lighten up" and "get a sense of humor." You've sworn at posters at least twice. Are they supposed to have a "sense of humor" about that?

As far as being hit on goes, you know it when you experience it. There is no specific "hit on" phrase. While it can be extremely direct, the phrase "I'm super-cool....Like to suck my cock out in the parking lot?" is not a come-on--it's something else (and unlikely to get you the result you want). Being hit on isn't necessarily a matter of an exact phrase. It's often comprised of nuance, of body language, of intonation, of the amount of eye contact. But you know that. You're just trying to bait these posters.

I'm sorry that you aren't hit on by women, if you want to be. But having read your posts, I can say with reasonable assurance that it's not your looks, or lack of them, that's the cause; it's your combative, hostile attitude.

@138

Go back and read the thread and what I wrote.

My questions were pointed -- that's what questions are for -- but totally civil until I received responses from jerks, like you.

Don't like it? Too bad :)

@137

You told me to "get a sense of humor", so ya you did dismiss it as a joke. I wasn't talking about the situations you displayed, I was talking about your general assertion that women being in a public space and what they wear is an invitation to being hit on.

That's male privilege, plain and simple.

Now I'll agree that there is the countering gender role that men have to be the aggressor, but it's all part of a complex web that establishes power relationships and social privilege.

@139: I did read the thread. I read your attacks on Marrena, on AdumbroDeus, on Clashfan. Not one of those people was as rude to you as you were to them. And now me. I'm not surprised, because it's perfectly in character, but I do wonder how am I a jerk? For telling you that swearing at people isn't compatible with telling them to "lighten up?"

Damnit, I should have said most trans women are straight. My excuse is that I'm an old person--still getting trying to get this right.

Also, nocutename, as an old person, my being hit on rituals are different than the ones you were asking. Men my age when hitting on lady usually offer to buy her a drink, as an intro. Then the lady politely refuses or accepts, and then goes on to indicate whether she is interested in conversation or not. It's pretty clear cut. The one time I stumbled in this process was the one time at the gay bar when the straight guy tried to pick me up. I thought he was gay and was just trying to be friendly by buying me a drink, so I accepted (I didn't want to offend with a refusal of simple friendliness). I apologized profusely when I found out my error and offered to buy him one in return.

It's fine to hit on women in bars. What's not fine is judging the general behavior of those women. I do especially enjoy my solitude out and about now that I'm a mom, but I also engaged in the same behavior when I was young and living alone. Sometimes a woman wants to go to a bar and is not in the mood to meet strangers. Maybe she just wants to people watch or enjoy the music or finds a particular cocktail delicious. And that's okay.

Blah, did I mention I'm old? That comment was directed at not my name but yours.

Marrena, I'm probably older than you. I wasn't asking about "hitting on" rituals--I was telling not my name or yours, who had asked what constituted a "hit" that there wasn't necessarily a specific word or phrase, though I agree that the offer to buy someone you don't know a drink is always a come-on.

I wasn't passing judgement on women's rights to be in bars free from being hit on, or on women's abilities to do the hitting. I've got no issue with any of that.
As to the original story this whole comment thread is about, I don't think a woman or a straight man had any business being at a gay male orgy. And it wasn't discriminatory to want them not to be there. But that's not what you and not my name or yours have been talking about.

@142, 143, 144: Oops: Confusion, posts crossing, all good now!

Many of you are not able to read.
Good bye.
Not worth the energy to answer to such idiots.

Has the Stranger attracted a new troll? I simply don't have the inclination to read all this stuff to find out, so I'd appreciate it if someone would take pity on my lazy ass and just tell me.

Don't think he's a troll, just a straight guy that doesn't realize his own privilege and sees any attempts at calling it out as being a jerk

@147 @148
Again, please go back and re-read the thread.
I am fully aware of male privilege -- in fact of my own WHITE male privilege.
I am all the nicest things you could imagine and I am very accepting of everything -- except cant and bullshit.

As I think one of you said, there is plenty of BS everywhere in humanity and LGBT not immune.

So just go back and re-read. It starts with a very simple question about why someone would go out in public to have a drink by oneself. The answer has nothing to do with gender or sexual preference but only with not having privacy at home. Just a reminder: many straight white males have no privacy to drink alone in their own home (because they have family/room-mates etc.).

Had the writer been clear/polite enough to simply explain that fact -- "I have no privacy at home so I have to get out by myself" -- she could have told me and I would have said "Ah. I see. Good point. I somehow assume that everyone like me -- especially on SLOG -- lives alone. Me dumb."

Instead we get this stupid conversation.

And if you don't like my explanation or are too lazy to read the thread, fuck off again.

Savage was accurate but overly-long in explanation.

The core of the author's question was flawed from the outset:

"How do groups that have traditionally been marginalized create a safe-space for themselves without simultaneously enacting the same exclusionary policies they've been fighting against?"

It's such a stupid question and the answer is easy: you do it in private.

It's OK to erect barriers in certain constitutionally-protected situations like private parties. It's OK to announce by saying in your home or hotel room "PRIVATE PARTY - GAY MEN ALLOWED ONLY".

It is Not OK when those same gay men go to work (at whatever they do in the world). In a PUBLIC situation (the office, construction site etc etc) they must observe the law and treat everyone (i.e. women, hetero men and whatever else) fairly/equally.

I think that the author of the underlying article just didn't think it through clearly.

Weren't you leaving?

@151
I was having fun. )
U 2 I gather.

@129. These are still public spaces you are talking about? Public bars- where gays meet up/ bars by their very nature are places where shitty drunken behaviour can and does happen.
Anyway, my point was not about any groups having a drinking meeting space/ gay women, gay men. Was pointing out the
Quick to freak out and be abusive to women words, coming from many posters. If the male gay community want respect for themselves to congregate in these public bars/ then trust those who understand your marginalized status will respect you.. Demand it like thugs, different story.

I thank Ms Nurse for the link to the fauxpology. He seems to present as having almost an anthropological interest in the event, and might even have attended the event with the idea of stirring up a bit of Leather-v-LGBT (well, G at least) discord.

Also, isn't it up to the allied party to bestow Ally status on an outsider?

Some folks confuse "troll" with someone who asks a question.

Not my name or yours, think nocutename explained
Pretty clearly . Yet you dissed on her. If you were serious about your questions, then pay people who make the effort to talk with you, some respect- as they respond.
First off, why does it matter why a woman or man wants to sit quietly in a bar? Don't wanna talk. Don't wanna be picked up. They just do.
As I said above, trust your intuition. Or maybe, develop it. People can very clearly send out nonverbal messages/ you just read em. No words needed.
Being good looking is not an issue( you rich? No just kidding).
And yes, maybe just saying hi could be constructed as a " hit-on line", and it is, isn't it? So, be real with yourself why you're in the bar.

@158
R U serious? Giving advice?
My advice to U is "Don't be a twit." I wasn't asking for advice so don't offer it.

Again: I was asking a question about why someone would go to a public place and not want to engage in conversation. It was totally sincere. It was a perfectly reasonable non-sneering question. It was non-sexist. It was MY question. If you don't like it, don't answer. In fact, the woman who did answer FINALLY explained that she had no privacy at home so couldn't get away alone anywhere else except a bar. Why should I not ask a question like that? It doesn't violate her privacy etc etc And SHE could have just ignored my question.

What is YOUR problem?

Dear Mr Last Word @159. sorry.. But can't you read? Think way back you asked some qus about when it becomes a hit-on- then you proceeded to give some examples. As well as asking why someone would want to be in a bar alone.
Some unasked for advice/ comment; you seem to have poor impulse control. Quick to anger? Big turn off for most women. So it wouldn't much matter what words you'd use in your " hit- on" scenario. Cause it wouldn't take long for the woman to get the picture.. More uncalled for advice. Do some therapy. Learn to control yourself.. Good luck.

Mr. ven @ 36, I'm peeved that I didn't catch the Lion reference. [I was Philip in a high school production that definitely ran with the same-sexer context of the roles.]

@ 153 I will completely agree with you that what some of the posters said was uncalled for and misogynist, something I called them out on.

However keep in mind the intrusion in the article was not a public space, it was a private space so you can understand why people would be annoyed.

Furthermore there is certainly a line between poor drunken behavior and sexual harassment, there is also a line between poor drunken behavior and treating underprivileged people like a zoo for your amusement.

I will also say this, as every activist movement learned you don't get better treatment by being silent, you get it by demanding and refusing to be ignored. The spirit of stonewall is what began our march to equality and I'll be damned if we back down quietly now. That doesn't mean being an asshole, but it does mean demanding to be treated like human beings.

@160, as someone who loves to bring a book or cross-word to a bar for some "alone" time [I have a home full of housemates], and as someone who has been hit-on in that context by women and men [I'm a bi, cis, white male, for whatever that is worth], I have to admit that I am just about as clueless as @110 when it comes to hitting-on people.

I've dealt with the attentions of men/women that I found tiresome. I've had men go for a grab or a kiss, when that was not at all what I thought was going was going on, and had to figure out how to respond. And, while less so, I've dealt with a couple of women who got a little too grabby. So I know what getting hit-on is in the bad way.

But many of those people who "interrupted" to asked me what book I was reading [a great conversation starter, and way to vet someone who may/may not be hitting on me BTW] turned out to be people I did enjoy talking to, fucking and/or dating. So I know what getting hit-on is in the good way.

But if I dress to my best advantage, and choose to put myself in a social space [a bar], I consider being approached as part of the deal. It can be delightful or very uncomfortable, but anyone with reasonable intentions--even if totally inept--are just other people to be dealt with as kindly as possible.

I know that I don't have to deal with the same frequency that some women do, and that being a man receiving unwanted attention from a man is not the same as a woman fending of a man [sexual violence dynamics are totally different], but I am mystified by how one hits-on a person "the right way."

So, everything else aside [I haven't read the whole thread in detail], what are the cardinal DOs and DON'Ts of approaching a person of interest? Seriously.

Mr Venn @154: I definitely agree. You can aim to be an ally, but you don't get to say, "I know this looks phobic, but it can't be! I'm an ally!"

My husband, a white man, recently told me that he used to go to a Korean bar in his neighborhood where people were friendly, but that he eventually stopped going because he felt as though he was kind of invading the Korean patrons' space.

Damn montex. I don't take exception to you wanting a strictly gay space, but I do take exception to your general misogyny. You could have made your point with out all the pejorative adjectives and adverbs to gussy it up.
Just sayin'

Mr O - Well, it was a mere paraphrase. Sounds like a fun play.

Hey AdumbroDeus, I agree, although this thread moved away from a private party, to complaints about bars. And of course no one has
The right to engage in sexual harrasment towards anyone, or treat them like an object.
That the thread degenerated into such generalized attack on women, ALL women, with such ugliness, was a shame.
I would expect, after the struggles and pain of the last 40 yrs for gay ,lesbian and trans* people to stand tall and proud and keep vigilant about any attacks . ( a few silly women in a few gay bars, though/ just ignore them). And I, as a straight woman , am happy to stand in support of you. Regards.

@163. No idea. Really. It obviously is a hit/ miss type scenario.
And yes, if one is in a bar alone, others may assume one is open to being approached. Though, like you- I like to sit in public with a book. That to me would/ should be clear indication to others, that I'm occupied. Truth is, at my mature age, I'd be fine with a reasonably presented man joining me..
And , the poster I was talking with, may have just been stirring . But he sure got cross very quick. A few posters did try to share with him, myself included. But got crossed at. But he was cool, if a tad inconsistent. All grist for the Savage Mill, I guess..

@ 168

Some people did, and they have been chastened, the one real remainder is a surprise surprise, straight guy. You should not however, generalize our community, we are individuals to the point that some are misogynists, just like some women (even feminists) are homophobes. It's not the gay community expressing misogyny, it's gay people.

As far as vigilence, keep in mind that these issues are systematic of a larger problem, of gays being treating as a sex object, or a zoo display, or fashion accessory. The only way to address to deal with these underlying systemic issues is to deal with them at the source and address them, and that means actually saying something to those women that are objectifying us by holding a bachelor party at the eagle.

Privilege is mostly subtle things that people think nothing of doing, and doesn't get addressed unless people actually say something, and doesn't get fixed unless seen as a symptom of a larger issue.

@163 it all comes down to the fact that you never have a right to somebody's attention and what is too much is subject to the standards of the person on the receiving end, not yours.

But in this case, it's somebody going to a space that generally isn't frequented by people who would be interested in her for that purpose, I really don't see the issue.

@35 Dan

How to tell that Ragu isn't Raku : Ragu always leaves it at one comment. Raku can't control her angst.

@Ragu : fucking brilliant.

@163 I'm not surprised you don't need to hit on other persons, you gorgeous you.

There are a lot of sentences, and the headline, where 'gay' must specifically mean 'gay male' to make sense. As lesbian sex is mentioned in the first sentence, does the omission of fag sex mean the word reclamation failed? In which case, can a new word be chosen for male gay, or is homo the only gender neutral word left?

@174 Well interesting the reason why gay tends to refer to men has to do with the lesbian movement choosing to differentiate itself from gay men (something I actually learned from a poster here), it didn't fully stick however so now "gay" is sort of gendered but not entirely whereas lesbian refers to only women.

Why was @110 reduced to unregistered troll status? He was unhappy and frustrated but had real questions he wanted answered so he could understand better.

1) Hitting on is not a bad thing in itself. Sometimes it leads to something more, sometimes it doesn’t but is a compliment, sometimes it’s just tedious.

2) Harassment is something else. Harassment is when you’ve communicated that you aren’t interested but the contact continues or escalates.

3) All those examples are “hitting on” and will work some of the time. I knew someone whose preferred method of hitting on women was to drop his pants. He got intensive work with social workers and psychologists helping him understand other people’s points of view and developing alternative communication strategies. He was taken to the police station where police officers explained the consequences of dropping your pants in public. Nothing worked, until one day he dropped his pants in front of the right woman and they started dating. Then the public pants-dropping stopped.

4) The reason women might find being hit on tedious is that sometimes they don’t want to be forced to interact with other people. Sometimes they just want to enjoy being surrounded by people without having to spend energy on tactfully declining offers. Another reason could be the little voice warning that she’s attracting too much attention and she could be in danger.

5) Privilege and Entitlement are different things.
> Women understand what it’s like to have to invest energy in navigating men’s expectations of them when they are out in public. Men not having that understanding is *privilege*: the privilege of being able to freely go out in public without worrying about whose sexual attention they might attract.
> Men who believe that they have the right to hit on any woman, any time and to be treated respectfully are demonstrating *entitlement*: the entitlement to women’s sexual services (including the verbal sexual service of an attractive woman hinting ‘perhaps some other time...’). If you hit on someone, they are annoyed and you immediately back off respecting their right to feel annoyed, that’s not necessarily entitlement. (It might be, depending on context — work is not a good place to ask for sexual services no matter how respectful you are of their right to feel annoyed at the request.)

Some people thought that ‘gay’ was gender-neutral until they started replacing it with ‘gay-and-lesbian’ and ended up with some nonsensical statements like, “bathhouses are an important part of gay and lesbian sexuality.” “Gays and lesbians are at increased risk of contracting HIV.” “Boyz Magazine is a gay and lesbian publication.”

It then became clear to gay men that lesbians had concerns and interests of their own, and that just because something was very interesting to gay men didn’t mean it was a universal part of the same-sex experience.

In the seventies and eighties, the lesbian community had a significant overlap with the feminist movement — they were feminists who happened to love other women. In the eighties and nineties, lesbians developed a culture of their own, separate from both feminism and gay men. In the nineties and noughts, feminism kind of fell away and the overlap between the GSD communities became more salient.

When I was growing up I disliked the faggot/lesbian dichotomy. I wish Dan had reclaimed faggot, and I'll still keep using faggy as hot (keeping with the fire base/cigarette meanings). But I'll start using homo as my gender neutral word, apparently decades behind others. It's so clinical though! But then you can joke about everyone being homo.. sapien. Um and don't drink and post.

178: You are mistaken if you truly believe lesbians did not have a culture and community of their own before the 80s. Have you not read 'Stone Butch Blues'?

Ophian @163 "what are the cardinal DOs and DON'Ts of approaching a person of interest?"

If they look occupied, you can say "excuse me" and ask a question that seems relevant:
"I heard about that book, do you like it?"
"Do you come here often? I gather they have live music some evenings, is that right?"

Or if you're not actually interrupting anything, then you can use a wider range of small talk, like: "some coffee!" or "hot weather we're having."

Then pay attention to their reaction. If they don't look directly at you, and only mumble an answer, then leave them alone. If they respond with a smile, that starts the dance where you each decide if you enjoy talking to the other person.

Alison @177, thank you for sharing the public pants-dropping story. Eye-opening.

Serious question unrelated, kind of, to the post. I see a lot of instances now where people use "women" when discussing an individual person. Is this a thing? Or do typos just really bother me? Should I be using only "women" now? Am I going to be called a pig or chauvinist if I use "woman" I have to know!

@177: "Why was @110 reduced to unregistered troll status? He was unhappy and frustrated but had real questions he wanted answered so he could understand better."

You must be constantly surprised that trolls aren't actually interested in your explanation. They're looking to feel like a victim, but their lines never change or evolve.

M? Butler - Perhaps it's because "womyn" has become plural as well as singular. I mentioned the singular use of "women" a while back, but it seems to have been dying down lately.

Mr O - Send a footman with a note. (Broadway Damage)

clashfan @180,

Have you not read Radclyffe Hall’s The Well of Loneliness? Or Sappho’s poetry?

Yes of course there was lesbian culture before the 1980s. I expressed myself extremely poorly. Lesbian-feminism was a thing in the 1970s to 1980s but isn’t any more. It was one of the dominant paradigms but didn’t survive the sex wars or intersectionality.

Ms Cummins - Perhaps the radicals swallowed what was left of it; some members of the TERF crowd sound quite like people or writings I used to know back in the days when some events were for "wymyn-born-wymyn" only.

@178, how can you make such a blanket statement that
Lesbian - Feminism, is a thing of the past?
What, Lesbians no longer women interested in having a voice? Maybe radical separatist- feminism- as a big movement, is in the past. Not needed as much these days, women ( and men), have confronted a lot of male ( cultural) assumptions. That needed to happen with much force in late 60s-70s..
And yes, how does someone who was registered suddenly get unregistered?

vennominon, that would be the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival, still going strong.

@169 : "Though, like you- I like to sit in public with a book. That to me would/ should be clear indication to others, that I'm occupied."

Since the discussion was about bars I am assuming you are talking about bringing a book to a bar.

I don't see why you would assume that if you are in a place like a bar. People don't typically read in a bar, so pretty much anything you do in a bar is often interpreted as something to enhance conversation or an opening to meet people. It might not always be the correct interpretation, but in that context it is not an unreasonable one.

People in bars often do things that would intentionally provide an opening to discussion. Be it a witty slogan on a t-shirt, some outlandish accessory, or something as simple as a book.

A book is a great conversation starter. "Hi, I was thinking of reading that book. What do you think of it?"

Unless you are in a place where it is clear that you just want to read, say a library, then you shouldn't be surprised if people see the display of something like a book as a conversation starter rather than an implied "do not disturb" sign.

And by his "apology" he has no clue why people are upset.

http://www.fdpod.com/2014/06/an-apology-…

Fortunate,

It’s like reading or working in a café. Many people like just sitting in the wash of humanity without actively participating. A hint of someone’s intentions might be whether they are seated such that as many people as possible can easily see what they are reading, or so as to be as inconspicuous as possible.

The difference being that in a bar, the reader will probably become more receptive to interaction as their blood alcohol slowly rises. It’s possible the ostentatiously inconspicuous reader will change orientation after having gotten up to pee.

@189: "I don't see why you would assume that if you are in a place like a bar. People don't typically read in a bar, so pretty much anything you do in a bar is often interpreted as something to enhance conversation or an opening to meet people. It might not always be the correct interpretation, but in that context it is not an unreasonable one."

Assuming that women only do anything, INCLUDING READING for male attention is pretty shitty of you.

@190: Gah.

"My experience at IML was referenced solely as a jumping off point for this discussion."

It wasn't his experience at IML, it was his experience trying to get a friend to crash a private party related to IML.

I wonder what he told her ( that it was just another part of the event?)

I wonder how uncomfortable she would've been made by his deception had she gotten in? Like, is she supposed to just sip a glass of wine uncomfortably?

@192 "Assuming that women only do anything, INCLUDING READING for male attention is pretty shitty of you."

I didn't say anything about what women do. What I said applies to anyone, not specifically women to men. That's your assumption. I just happened to be addressing a woman, but her gender was irrelevant to my comment.

What I am saying is that if you are doing something in an environment where it is very conspicuous and not the norm, no matter your gender or the gender of the others there, expecting that to be a clear sign that you don't want to be bothered is not realistic.

If a straight guy was at a straight sports bar while the Super Bowl was on TV and they were reading a book most likely someone would be curious and ask them what they were reading. It doesn't necessarily have to do with being hit on. It is just a behavior that actually attracts attention and invites questions.

Particularly that people generally go to bars to socialize, so assuming that people do things in an environment geared towards socialization as a means to facilitate socialization isn't unreasonable, or a shitty assumption.

But feel free to make your own assumptions all you want.

@191 "Many people like just sitting in the wash of humanity without actively participating."

No doubt, but still, being surprised that someone might not assume that, but rather assume that you wouldn't be opposed to interaction when at a bar isn't realistic in my opinion.

There are all sorts of reasons to do all sorts of things, but when your actions are not the norm for the environment it shouldn't be surprising if people assume you are there for the same reason as the majority. If you aren't then a polite, "sorry, I just want to read" is all that is needed, but that someone would not jump to the confusion that you don't want to be bothered in that particular situation isn't unreasonable.

Well said! I shudder to imagine the day when I run afoul of Dan Savage.... :)

@ 195, well I'm sure I can be a pretty ferocious chick- so if I'm sitting in a bar reading and having a drink/ and that's exactly what I want to do there (not using the book as a prop, waiting for someone to offer company).. Then it would be a brave fucker who approached me. A bar is a place to go to get a drink..

Dan, the relevant comparison is not you walking in to a lesbian sex party, it is you walking in to a straight-people-only sex party. Lots of girls get off watching men fuck men. The problem is that there are not enough bi orgies - at least, not where male bisexuality is as welcome as female (which is often taken for granted). I don't blame men for objecting to the presence of a woman at a party intended for gay male sex, only. But is it so crazy that a woman might want to attend a party where men have sex with men? If billed honestly, such a party would only attract men who enjoy women joining in with the men fucking men. Your rant makes it sound like no man in his right mind would ever have gay sex in the presence of a woman. I don't mean to imply that having gay safe spaces is somehow discriminating against bisexuals and their fans; it's not, no more than it is discriminating against women. I'm not defending Barry at all, just pointing out a separate issue: it is straight privilege that makes women or men demand entry to gay or lesbian orgies, but it is patriarchy that makes female bisexuality a treat for straight men and male bisexuality pervasively discouraged.

It is absolutely the right of gay men to have sex parties for gay men, only. Just sayin': where are the bi orgies??

@198: "But is it so crazy that a woman might want to attend a party where men have sex with men?"

It's crazy to crash a private event where you would make people feel uncomfortable at. It's not a cocktail party.

"where are the bi orgies??"

Start your own splinter-party, M4M and all others welcome.

@199: The offense here is not really that someone crashed a private event, thus making people uncomfortable. The offense is that a female intruded on a male-only sex party. The host was a man who wanted women nowhere near his sex - as is certainly his right. Most if not all the gay men in attendance were of the same mind - as is certainly their right. To suggest that gay men are sexist for not fucking women is obviously ludicrous.

I do plan on starting my own party, because gay male sex parties abound and there's no popular equivalent for bisexual men that welcome women. You can interpret this to mean that there's simply more gay men than bi men in the world. Or you can interpret this as a sign of institutionalized power differentials between various groups, including (but not limited to) straight men, bi men, gay men, gay women, bi women, and straight women. @1 brought up the Bechdel test, and I see a parallel; just as accusing any one particular film of failing the test completely misses the point, so does blaming any one party for not allowing women. NEITHER ARE EVIDENCE OF MISOGYNY. It is merely the overwhelming lack of films that pass the test (or of parties that celebrate MMF) that reveals a disturbing pattern. I am not smart enough to distill exactly what the root causes of these discrepancies are, but I do see the overall patterns as hints of a problem. The solution, I agree, IS to start the parties you want to attend. I'll be spreading those M4M and all others welcome events!

200: Cool, positive energy towards that effort. I never found it crazy, just irrelevant in the context the writer was trying to harmfully inject it into.