SL Letter of the Day: Potential Murder, She Wrote

Comments

1
My reaction, without even reading Dans response is; this story freaks me out. There is something really wrong here.. Dark and spooky. If I were you, I would get away from this man- seriously. He sounds mentally unwell.
2
Yea, she should go. My former bff turned out to be way into violence like this guy. I wound up hugely emotionally damaged and I only lived with her one year (friends for 17 years before I discovered she was a psycho!)

I'm no prude and even watch the occasional horror movie. However, the bff had a whole bookshelf of titles about serial killers, a shelf full of violent dvd's and that's when I realized her whole "goth" thing from our high school days wasn't just for show. That's really who she was deep down, too. She turned the space where we lived into a hostile environment- I had to leave the room one time b/c the way she was watching a horror movie scene gave me the creeps really badly. It wasn't even the movie as much as the creepy expression on her face- just waaaaaay too into it.

The next thing you know she was confessing to me that she killed a stray cat we'd been keeping. Here's where it gets more messed up: she told me she killed a dog one time when she was high, but I thought that she was hallucinating b/c she wasn't really coherent. I NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS THOUGHT SHE REALLY KILLED A DOG!!!! I was in so much shock and denial that I didn't even believe it. I kept thinking maybe she just said it to scare me, as if that was somehow better.

Either way, real or fake animal abuse, she was using the threat of violence to intimidate, harass and control me. I found out much later that what she did is classic domestic abuse, only b/c it was my bff I never suspected it. I had dumped a boyfriend for grabbing me during an argument, but never once did it occur to me that what the bff was doing was actually domestic abuse.

Here's what I did and I would advise the letter writer to do something similar: Don't confront this guy, b/c he could become violent. Instead, sneak away while pretending that everything is ok. The whole time I was planning my escape from the psycho bff, I was telling her whatever would pacify her. I never told her I thought she was a crazy bitch until I had already moved away and even then I didn't mean to say that- I simply cracked under pressure, b/c I'd had enough. Get a ton of support from family and friends- Don't be alone with him either. If you have to pick up your things, find out if a police officer or friend can escort you to get them.

Good luck! It will be hard to leave, b/c he's probably done a lot of damage to your self worth, but years later you'll look back and wonder why you ever stayed as long as you did.
3
Yeah well, Dan also sees the great danger here. LW, read the unregistered letter @2. Someone with similar experiences.
4
A person who worked for my family was in a situation like this. She finally decided to go, had her mother on the phone for support, and he lay in wait for her and killed her with a hammer. You can't assume that this is all fantasy. Get out of there, and don't go back without a strong escort.
5
Spot on advice from Dan.
6
I'm tempted to snark that having children will solve the problem.

But seriously, in addition to the advice about getting out, maybe get some sort of documentation in order, perhaps through talking to a lawyer, which she's going to do anyway, right? I hope she stays somewhere else, but I can't tell if she'd be safe from him then, either, since it's hard to tell if he's also stalkerish.
7
There's no mention of any other person than the LW and the husband. I could understand being reluctant to disclose this to family or friends. I could also imagine a woman who has lived with someone this messed up since age 17 not having many other people in her life to confide in.

Dan's response is mostly right on, but ignore the "get him to a therapist" part; you don't want to do anything that might signal your intentions.

Your first priority should be to find an attorney. It will make all the difference, and possibly save your life.

In the words of Margo Walter, daughter of the aforementioned Ann Landers: Don't ask me how I know this.
8
Please read unregistered comment #2.

9
This is pretty creepy. I mean I LOVE my "murder shows" as my husband calls them, but I don't watch murder porn. I've never thought about killing my husband (which, let's be honest, can't be all THAT uncommon). so for me the "murder shows" are just fascinating because I can't comprehend how people can do that sort of thing. This guy sounds like he's studying.
10
Okay, first step is a lawyer, and second is the police and an organization that assists battered women. She may not be physically abused--yet--but I don't know what may happen when she says she's leaving. And yes: leave. Leave NOW.
11
Everything the other commentors said and also take the laptop with you. Look through or have it looked through and see if anything on it might be actionable.
12
Read The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker. Don't let him know ahead of time that you're leaving. Listen to your gut.
13
[non-HA]

She CALLED HIM OUT on his depression and MADE HIM make some changes?

If I were terminally ill, I'd be tempted to spare him the trouble.
14
DON'T SAY YOU ARE LEAVING. Just do it. If you're reading this and you're out of the house, don't go back. It's that bad.
15
Get a Safety Plan, like NOW. Put all the things you can't live without in a bag & take it to a friend's. Call the Domestic Violence Hotline, get their advice/help on how to leave. I watch the forensic shows sometimes because how the police solves crimes is interesting, but the SNUFF FILMS(!!!) & fantasies about killing you! OY! Run, he is clearly mentally disturbed, sometimes psychosis doen't manifest till a person is an adult. Once you are in a safe place, you can call (make sure to turn GPS on phone OFF) him & try to talk him into going to a psychiatrist, he needs medication & treatment. Also tell him to go get a full checkup, could be he has a brain tumor.

When you tell him that you're leaving, do it in public place. Then go get your things with a police escort. Don't feel guilty, you can support him in getting help (over the phone). Just don't let him know where you live!
16
Even if this guy has no intention of actually murdering his wife, it still rings alarm bells that this guy has dark disturbing fantasies that he seems be having trouble handling in a healthy way. He's obsessing about it. He's not finding ways to express it healthfully. He seems like he's not clear on where fantasy and reality are separated. He's not having the reassuring "omg these are super creepy fantasies I'm having, wtf!" reaction, but just "yeah I'd be sad if I killed you."

I agree with Dan. Err on the side of avoiding your husband killing you. Get out, get an attorney, don't let him know where you're going, etc. But you have plenty of reasons to leave this relationship even if he'd never actually hurt you let alone kill you. That, I think, is the important message here.
18
Oh, geez. Nothing worth salvaging here. Time to go, time to move on, and certainly time to get free. Seems to me that no good will come from this.
19
The problem is that the husband is actually giving voice to these thoughts. And he is not removing himself from potential triggers. If I watched a slew of episodes of Law & Order and then found myself fantasizing about poisoning my partner's sandwich.... that's the last time I watch L&O. I don't want to think those things, and if there's something which I think might make me want to think them, I don't do the thing.

Husband may not have any solid intentions (yet), but he's feeding the fantasy. And that's what I find most disturbing.
20
That ill-at-ease feeling that you have? That's your gut trying to warn you. Everyone, but especially women, are trained to downplay that feeling because "it's crazy, he wouldn't actually murder me!" Except your husband admits to fantasizing about killing you and you're worried about it. I'd get out now, and then once you've gotten away, read The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker - your intuition is telling you something is wrong; there is something wrong. At worst, you'll leave a shitty marriage with no sex, and you might save yourself from being a statistic.

(Note: The Gift of Fear's chapter on domestic violence isn't the best, but the stuff on how we process threats is good.)

LW, please be safe. Leave when he's not home and don't tell him where you are going. Good luck.
22
@15 also has good advice.
23
I thought of this kind of like another dangerous fantasy: sex with children.

A pedophile can't really help who he/she is attracted to, but they can recognize that their desire cannot be fulfilled in a healthy way. They can take actions to make sure they don't turn their fantasy into a reality and harm a minor. They can make sure they don't work around kids. Make sure they aren't alone around kids. They can seek counseling and find ways to mitigate their desires so they don't do something terrible.

But your husband is doing none of those things. He is continuing to feed that fantasy, he is not seeking help, and he's living under the same roof as one of his fantasy victims: you. This is like a pedophile taking up residence in a middle school locker room. It is an invitation to disaster.

Do you really want to sit around the house, waiting to see how long he resists the temptation right under his nose?
24
You should'a got your husband to a doctor. But it's too late now. Get the fuck away and hope you don't die.
25
The short answer is, always trust your gut instincts. While many find it to be a problematic book, I think a recommendation to read Gavin de Becker's "Gift of Fear" would not be out of place here.
26
As @15 points out, often mental illness (schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression) shows up in your early 20s.

27
I hope you're reading this, UBWTBS, because I have never seen such unanimity in a comment thread on SLOG. Leave. Don't hesitate, don't warn him. Leave and never look back. Fuck being supportive - your safety and sanity come first.
28
If you don't have relatives or friends to stay with, call any women's shelter (sometimes now called a "family crisis center"). Talk with an advocate and tell her what you told Dan. Let her walk you through your options. And learn about what they can do for you - house you in a secure location, get you job skills, classes on recognizing risky relationships in the future (at least classic abusive ones), and/or help you relocate to a new area. They can help you obtain a restraining order and/or help you with moving your stuff out safely.

Any advocate will encourage you to trust your gut and take the safer choice when considering your options. But in the end, they will leave the choice up to you.

As others have said, don't tip your hand. In classic DV, leaving is the riskiest time for the victim. Best to play along until you decide to leave and then just leave. Any announcement to him should be from afar and with supportive people around who will support you in your decision because he will try hard to talk you into returning. Better yet, let their staff deliver any such announcement. You need to just go.

-Women's Shelter Director and President for 8 years.
29
RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN
30
Nicely done, Dan.
31
Ye gods... Your gut is talking, and you need to listen. Get out, and don't look back. Please take others' advice to prepare an action plan, make sure you can take shelter with family or trusted friends if necessary. Please, please do not continue to take this lightly. Do NOT tell yourself that "he could never", because yes, he could. Any one person is capable of any number of horrendous acts.
32
GTFO. Then write back and let us know you're still alive.
33
Is it wrong I was LOLing as I read this letter? Because it sounds like a wacky plot from a 30 min sitcom
34
I hope this is one of the letters re-visited several years down the road, with news that the letter writer is divorced and still alive.
35
+1 recommending 'the gift of fear.'

and even if he was never **really** going to (physically) hurt you, you don't feel safe in your own home and that is no way to live, and is a form of abuse in itself.

leave. leave now, and don't let him know where you end up.
36
One thing Dan was completely wrong on was the bit about getting him to a therapist.

That’s not your business any more. Getting him to a therapist means sticking around to apply pressure, then if you succeed sticking around to see if it helped. BAD.

That train left the station a long time ago. If you knew enough about depression to get him to talk, improve his diet and get exercise then you knew he should be checked out by a doctor too. You didn’t. You guys seem oddly isolated, which may be part of the reason you’re having trouble imagining yourself leaving.

The police or whoever he next demonstrates dangerous thoughts to may take him to a hospital. Once you’ve left you can call 911 and report him as a danger to self and others. Depending where you are he can be held three days for observation and then he will either be released — presumably with a very strongly worded suggestion to get psychiatric care — or the order will be renewed.

But no, completely ignore Dan’s advice to get him to a therapist. Dumb dumb dumb. Leave. He will eventually get care if he needs it, one way or another. Right now you need to look after you and direct your energies toward figuring out how to build a new life.
37
Everything in me says DANGER DANGER

I also recommend the Gift of Fear, and I also think you should get the hell out. Now. Without a conversation and without trying to get him to do anything. Your next problem will be access - meaning doing all you can to make sure he does not have access to you in any way. He sounds unstable, and you leaving will be further destabilizing to him. For that reason, the physical risk to you is the greatest at the time you leave. You can't soften it for him - you need to focus your energies on protecting yourself completely, and that may mean a temporary withdrawal from your life until you find other ways keep yourself safe. You know him best, so think this all out. Get whatever help and support you need, and then do whatever you need to do.

My heart is with you, girl
38
I disagree with everyone who says that the letter writer shouldn't try to get psycho-hubby to a therapist. She should SUGGEST it in a nonthreatening way while she is getting ready to leave. Suddenly seeming okay about something that has obviously been bothering her for a while might tip psycho-hubby off to the fact that she plans to leave. She should continue to express her concerns the same way that she has been doing all along.

To me it seems as if psycho-hubby's murder fantasies are sexual - that he wants to kill her during or just after sex because it would be a thrill. The letter doesn't scream standard domestic abuse to me (but that could just be my reading of the letter), so I don't think that he is likely to track her down after he has accepted that she left. But she should definitely be prepared for that contingency.

In my opinion she is in the greatest danger BEFORE she leaves if he finds out she is leaving - especially if he realizes that he may never live out his murder fantasy once she goes he may decide to act on it while he still has the chance.

Whatever she does, she should NOT bring "The Gift of Fear" into the house where psych-hubby can see it because it might tip him off to her leaving. I definitely agree that she should read it, but she should read it at the library, at a friend's house or at work (tell psycho-hubby that she is being forced to work overtime). If there is stuff that she absolutely can not live without in the house (like something she needs for work, a diary or family photos) she should pack it up and get it to a friends' house. Everything else should be left behind. If he finds the stuff missing, she can claim that she is just getting rid of some clutter or tell him that she doesn't know where it went either. She should pack up a few clothes (and just a few) to 'donate to charity and get them to the safe haven too. Call an abuse hot-line (from somewhere psycho-hubby can not only not overhear, but also can't walk in on her expectedly) and document, document, document. Tell a friend, tell her parents, tell a lawyer, tell the police - tell everyone who will agree to not letting it get back to psycho-hubby until after she is gone.

Then she should get the hell out sooner rather than later. I mean like within a week of getting Dan's response - which, if she gets it on her computer or on a computer that they share, she should delete IMMEDIATELY after reading. Leave while he isn't home, taking a day off of work if she has to. If she doesn't work ask a friend to pretend an illness or a child care emergency that she absolutely has to help with. Tell psycho-hubby that she has to work late the day she leaves or that she plans to go shopping or stay late with the friend or whatever he will believe so he doesn't wonder why she hasn't come home until long after she has gone.

Ideally she should get as far away as she can from psycho-hubby when she leaves. If she can get to a different town that would be great; if she can get to a different state that would be better. Have friends pick up her stuff - with a police escort - if and when she can. Her leaving the area doesn't have to be for long - just long enough for him to accept that he won't get to live out his fantasy with her.

Once he realizes that she is truly gone and isn't coming back - and he can't fulfill his murder fantasy with her - I think he will probably let her go fairly quickly. She should alert the police that he might be a danger to another woman and get him committed (after she is gone) if she has to. Once he realizes he will never be able to fulfill his fantasy with her he may try to fulfill it while someone else. And getting him committed is a way to force him to get the help he obviously needs. (I have a feeling that she might feel bad for abandoning him and that is one reason why she is staying - forcing him to get help may alleviate those feelings.)

I had a psycho-roommate once and living in constant fear is no way to live. Please, UBWTBS, get away as soon as you can! And let us know when you are safe if you can - we are all worried for you.

39
She should get out, and this man should never get involved with another woman.

He might be a lovely man, who would never do these things he fantasizes about because he would never, ever want to hurt someone, but I'm pretty sure most pedophiles start out suing the same things, and those who don't stay away from kids are way more likely to lose their gold-star not-actually-a-molester status.
40
I kinda hope he kills her.
41
I can see how this kind of open marriage could be a solution if you have young kids or the person is terminally ill or whatever but if not, why not just get a divorce and find someone who wants to have sex with you and you know...DOESN'T FANTASIZE ABOUT MURDERING YOU.
It's not like divorce is taboo or even a big deal anymore. It seems like some of these people who write just use it as another prop for a failed relationship
42
She didn't ask why he wants to kill her? What do I do to make you want me dead? Do I nag? Do I make the wrong meals? What? I think he's attempting to intimidate her. To make her afraid to leave him.
43
Husband needs therapy and now. I'd suggest that he do something inpatient for a little while, for two reasons:
-Get him out of the house so that he has a little distance between his current murder fantasy-drenched environs and himself.
-Spend some time doing group therapy with other people in bad places so he realizes he's not the only one battling really fucked up psychological issues.
Once he's done with the intensive therapy in an inpatient program, he needs to find a therapist and a psychologist he feels he can work with and see them regularly; once or twice a week would be best.

UBWTBS, get out. Don't take chances with the current situation or your husband's dangerous paraphilia; find a place to stay.
44
Bonus terminology: sexual arousal centered on murder is known as erotophonophilia.
45
Seriously, vennominon? She's living with a man who may MURDER HER but god for-fucking-bid she not phrase her concerns in the most sensitive possible way and it's completely fine to call for her to be killed on that, you know, while we're being all careful with our language and all.
46
40, you are disgusting.
47
Isn't it possible that he simply has/developed a kink, a rather extreme form of the 's' part of BDSM? The letter writer doesn't mention whether their sex life has ever been kinky. But if her husband has a strong interest in BDSM that they have never explored or that he never felt comfortable expressing, that might explain his lack of interest in sex with her.

He sounds remorseful and uncomfortable about these fantasies. It can be hard to know how to feel when there are things one would never do to a loved one in real life but that are turn-ons in fantasy. When a woman has rape fantasies, we understand it doesn't mean that she really wants to be raped. We should also understand that when a man has rape fantasies, it doesn't mean he really wants to rape.

Many BDSM kinksters who are safe and sane in real life have a fantasy life that goes way beyond safe and sane--yes, even up to and including murder. Shoot, some kinksters have Nazi fantasies (including Jewish kinksters).

Has her husband ever been violent towards her in real life? Doesn't sound like it. "GET OUT NOW" seems like an overreaction to the discovery that your husband has sex-murder fantasies. Judging from the interwebs, far more people have such fantasies than there are actual sex-murderers.

Sounds like he is a bit obsessive about it, and conflicted about it as well. Not surprising in someone who has an intense, not-ok fantasy and no one who will safely explore it with them.
48
I suggest you talk to an anonymous domestic violence support line for advice on how to safely get yourself out of this situation. Here's one: http://www.thehotline.org/
49
This is one of the proverbial slowly-boiling-frog situations, only the frog is you, LW.

You have lived with him so long, and the deterioration has been so gradual, that you can't see how bad it is because it's only a little worse than before, which was only a little worse than just before that, and so on. You've acclimated to his mental illness.

You did the right things trying get him help for his depression. But (so far as you've told us) you aren't a mental-health professional. You cannot be expected to know what serious mental illness looks like or how to treat it.

The shelter director @28 IS pretty qualified to address this. And he is saying what 98% of us on this thread are saying:

You cannot fix him.

You cannot help him.

He is a danger to you.

He does not know, or realize, or want to admit that he is a danger to you.

You have passed the point of "this is marital quirkiness."

You are now at risk of getting killed.

Please get out. Get out and get somewhere safe.

You are not safe with this man any more.

He will hurt you.

Please get out.
50
I think 'Uncomfortable' needs to be supportive of her own continuing existence, which means getting out now whilst she still can. Her husband is way beyond self help measures, and she is not qualified to judge what he might do if she urges him to see a therapist and discloses that she intends to get to a place of safety. After all, he has a continuing source of pleasure in feeding his fantasies and feeling her fear, and the prospect of losing that continuing source of pleasure could trigger turning fantasy into action...
51
@47: Though the issue is that he's feeding those fantasies, to an obsessive degree. This isn't a hidden folder on his computer with a few hardcore films he likes to watch after his wife has gone to bed; this is basically a full-time hobby of watching and enjoying numerous depictions of graphic murder (all while being incapable of having vanilla sex with his wife). And when it came time to reveal his fantasy, he showed a remarkable lack of good judgment when he told his wife how he fantasized about killing her. There were probably better ways to break the news that he has a snuff fetish - and when it comes to a snuff fetish, good judgment is pretty much a must-have, to a greater degree than a lot of other kinks. Even *if* he would never actually kill her, living in fear that your husband *might* is a horrible place to be in, and she should leave for that reason alone.
52
M? Lizard - Being the MF who clearly earned DTA'd (even if it was mutual, though I think the benefit of the doubt goes to the depressed partner in such cases) does not, I grant, justify the response of murder from the partner in question. However, I hold, and you are obviously free to differ, that anyone whose response to a partner's depression is to *call the partner out* on it and *make* the partner make changes is perhaps sufficiently horrible to merit consideration for my Terminally Ill Takeout List. Other people (perhaps Mr Savage himself) have Supreme Court judges or potential Presidents on their lists, while quite likely many others don't have such a list at all.

If I could mete out my own view of absolute justice, LW would live to a ripe old age because she would immediately join the Cistercians or the Poor Clares or some other of the more strict orders (not the Benedictines, though, as the order deserves better) and spend many decades as a nun.
53
@51 Suppose a wife discovered that her husband, who had lost interest in having vanilla sex with her, was spending undue amounts of time looking at BDSM porn involving, say, degrading women by forcing them to consume feces. Suppose she confronted her husband about it and asked if he ever thought about forcing her to consume feces. He answered, 'yes, but I feel bad about it,' and cried and said he would never force her to do anything like that, the thought of her getting sick from such an unsanitary act made him feel terrible.

Should that wife immediately flee the home or risk waking up one morning tied to the bed to be forced to engage in coprophagia? Or would it be better to talk to him, find if maybe there is a safe way to explore his fantasy that might even enhance their sex life? (E.g. fantasizing out loud during sex, finding other more practical forms of degradation/submission, simulation using chocolate sauce, etc.)

I am sure someone, somewhere has woken up bound and shat upon. Likewise, I am sure that somewhere there's been a case of a nonviolent man with no history of sex offenses suddenly sex-murdering his beloved wife, despite previously crying at the very idea. But seriously.
54
How do you tame a horse in Minecraft? Dammit! I wish Jaden Smith was my son!

I hope this is a fake letter inspired by South Park's "Informative Murder Porn". I googled a bit to see if snuff porn or murder porn was a real thing and this was the main result, although there do seem to be porn vids where the girl 'dies' as described in this letter.

Leaving aside the murder part, the sexless marriage part was creepy to me. The other thing that stood out was she made him do things, I agree with Vennominon, the phrase/context was coldly creepy. If they had a satisfying sex life his 'kink' wouldn't seem as dangerous to me... Maybe because I don't understand why they're together besides habit, or attachment, which I don't consider a healthy reason to keep a relationship by itself.

Vennominon - I often don't understand the refs and abbreviations in your posts, but the ones I do get are cool. (like the clever short hair joke)
55
sometimes he thinks about choking me to death but then the thought makes him sad

If thats not true love, I don't know what is.
56
@53: "I am sure someone, somewhere has woken up bound and shat upon. Likewise, I am sure that somewhere there's been a case of a nonviolent man with no history of sex offenses suddenly sex-murdering his beloved wife, despite previously crying at the very idea. But seriously."

Good god, someone will defend anything, won't they? This is not yet a physically abusive relationship, but an emotionally abusive relationship. She needs out. She doesn't need to encourage him to do anything but seek help in her absence.
57
@53: A coprophagia scene is generally survivable, even if the other partner loses control. Lose control in a snuff scene, the consequences are far worse.

And if a woman is living in fear that her husband will force-feed her feces, that is still a dysfunctional relationship, and should be ended, if only so the feces-fetishist is free to find someone more GGG about eating poop.

Lastly, when called on their abuse, a lot of abusers *do* break down and sob and promise their target that no, they really are in love and would never, ever, ever do anything to hurt their partner. This is generally recognized as one of the steps in the entire cycle of abuse.
58
Also @53: When someone has a potentially unsafe fetish, such as snuff or coprophagia or even shibari (cutting off circulation to extremities is bad, yo), the onus is on the person with the fetish to take responsibility for safety and to find safe ways to explore the fetish. It's not this wife's job to make sure her husband has safe outlets to fantasize about her own murder.
59
LW, I really hope you're reading these comments. After you've gotten to safety, I hope you'll write back to let us know you're okay.
60
For Fuck's Sake, Adversary, are you really saying, "so you are in a sexless marriage to a man who watches snuff porn and violent crime shows, and checks gruesome true crime books out of the library even though you've told him that you're uncomfortable having that stuff in your house. And he has admitted he's thought about killing you--even down to fantasizing the exact way he'd do it, but it makes him "sad" to think about it so he stops 'for a bit' and then returns to those fantasies the next day. But hey, it's probably just a harmless fantasy, and how about if you try indulging it. There are grosser fetishes. Thinking about leaving such a man is over-reacting."

He doesn't need to have made an attempt on her life for her to be justified in leaving him. In fact, she doesn't need your approval at all. Even if he wouldn't actually try to choke her to death, she is within her rights to be so uncomfortable in this marriage exactly as it is now that she wants out.

But I think it's far better to err on the side of over-reaction under these circumstances.

The fact is that it could get far, far worse than this. Being ggg doesn't mean putting your safety or your life on the line to satisfy the possibly sexual urges of a violent person who's confessed that he thinks about killing his wife. Not to mention, there's no mention of him doing anything for her.

Mr. Ven: I think you're projecting here. One of the things we sometimes to for people in our lives that we love is call them on dangerous thinking or behavior and "make" them go to doctors or therapists.

While I'm ordinarily a fan of your snarkiness, it seems grotesquely misplaced here. There's plausible reason to suspect that a woman's life is in danger.
61
@56, 57, 58: What abuse? He hasn't done anything. Nothing beyond "I have these thoughts" (and looking at porn).

"When someone has a potentially unsafe fetish...the onus is on the person with the fetish to take responsibility for safety and to find safe ways to explore the fetish. It's not this wife's job to make sure her husband has safe outlets to fantasize about her own murder." I mostly agree with this. It isn't her "job." No one has to explore another person's kinks with them. It is, however, a nice thing to do for someone you love, and a good way to achieve a stronger, more honest and more exciting sexual connection. It's is also an alternative to 1) dashing to a domestic violence shelter, or 2) continuing to live in fear.

Also, hasn't her husband taken responsibility for safety by doing nothing at all, let alone anything unsafe? This isn't a guy with an asphyxiation fantasy who has been pressuring his wife into letting him choke her out.

It is entirely possible that this will be a kink to far for her, that they are not--or no longer--sexually compatible. That as @57 said this is a dysfunctional relationship and he should go find someone who can be GGG about this. But that is a LOT different from labeling him a threat and fleeing for her life.
62
@61: Fantasizing about murdering your partner--or child, sibling, parent, anyone trapped in the house with you--is something you work through with a therapist. You don't work it through with your fantasized dead person, exploring whether starting to strangle them is enough or whether it turns out that you get a bit carried away and the murder actually happens. (You're familiar with escalation of kink, that some people always need a bigger and bigger hit? Killing people is a kink you don't indulge in that way.)

I imagine if your neighbor (bigger and stronger than you), who had been growing slowly odder over the years, had taken to confiding to you when you met at the mailbox about how he fantasized about murdering you and had worked out all the details--and then he invited you to come down into his basement so he could show you something--you would stay out of the basement. Advising the would-be-dead-person to not live in the same house with him is the equivalent of advising you not to wander into basements with mentally ill people who've been saying how they've been thinking a lot about how they would kill you.
63
@61: Let me break it down for you.

- Causing someone to live in fear for their life is abusive, even if one never lays a hand on them.

- A 'nice thing to do' for your spouse is to make them lunch and put in a little love note, or do their share of the domestic chores as a surprise. GGG doesn't mean you have to participate in fetishes, kinks or scenes which scare you.

- 'Not choking your partner without her consent' is sort of the baseline expectation for a healthy relationship. The husband doesn't get a gold star for *not* killing his wife, or even for not trying to kill her.

- If the husband wants to act out snuff scenes with his wife, the onus is ON HIM to find a way to have a conversation about his kink, coming up with a safe scene he would like to play out, and doing all of that in a way which reassures his wife that her safety is his primary concern, above and beyond getting his rocks off. The fact that he is unwilling or unable to do that is indicative that he would be an unsafe player to begin with. And the responsibility for making the husband into a *safe* player is with the *husband*, not the wife. What you're doing is telling a woman who's husband has a shibari kink that it's her responsibility to make sure that *he* knows how to tie knots safety. No, it's not - it's his. And someone who cannot understand appropriate behavior (i.e., it's not cool to tell your wife that you fantasize about killing her because that is a terrifying thing to hear) is most definitely not someone you want to play out high-level, high-stakes scenes with.
64
@62 So you see no difference between a neighbor confessing obsessive violent sexual fantasies about you and a trusted partner--with whom you have been in a long-term sexual and romantic relationship--confessing the same? If my girlfriend came to me and said, "I have fantasies about being raped...and yes, sometimes it is you raping me," I wouldn't think that meant she really wanted me to rape her. Likewise, if she told me she had thoughts about raping my ass with a strap-on, I wouldn't flee in terror.

Well, whatever, hopefully she is reading this and has gotten both perspectives...she's in the best position to judge.
65
LW - there are some people who want to debate here because they enjoy it. Please do not take heed to these comments. This is a high risk low reward situation. Go, now.
66
@64:
He didn't come to her and say he had fantasies about killing her. She confronted him when faced with a house full of creepy, disquieting evidence that he spends his days when she's not there obsessively reading about/watching true crime/snuff--that's murder, in case you've forgotten, not just porn--videos, and he confessed that yes, he has thought about killing her. And exactly how. And sometimes when he thinks about it, it makes him cry. He'd miss her if she were dead, you see, So then he tries really hard to not indulge those obsessions any more, which lasts a whole day. He assures her that when he thinks of killing--yes, killing his wife, he imagines it happening in the context of a "horrible accident."
The most he's been able to concede is to turn off the violent content when she's in the house.

And that's just what she knows about. That's what's out in the open. There's also the matter of the "incognito windows" on the computer.

You comparing this to your girlfriend coming up to you and saying she had fantasies of you raping her that she'd like to play is an incredible distortion of the situation.

This isn't about sex. It's not a fantasy that he wouldn't really want to do. He doesn't think. Or, well, maybe they should try to let him choke her, as long there is a safeword.

The letter writer is creeped out--her words. Why are you suggesting she stay and indulge this guy?
67
Furthermore, Adversary, I don't know what more you want from this lw.

Before she gets to the really disturbing part of the letter, she describes a marriage that is unfulfilling and frustrating:
"My husband's sex drive dropped dramatically when he had a bought of depression and joblessness in the mid 2000's. I attributed the change at first to the joblessness and the economy. I called him out on his depression and made him make some changes (going outside, being more active, eating differently, talking) and he did get a new job and the depression seemed to fade but the sex drive never returned.

At first I thought we just had different sex-schedules and we were wanting it at different times. Then I thought he wasn't attracted to me. Then we tried diet and exercise. Nothing seemed to work and I felt horrible. I felt like I was pressuring him to be something he wasn't, but I also felt like I wasn't getting what I needed in my life. We talked a lot about our expectations, needs, and feelings, and he told me he felt he'd been sliding into asexual nature. I was supportive . . ."


She's not getting what she wants or needs. She got him through a depression and stuck around while he got back on his feet, job-wise. She feels unattractive and rejected and she also feels "horrible," pressuring him to be someone he's not.

She met her husband when she was 17 and he was 19. It's likely that he's the first guy she ever really dated. They're 30 and 32 now, and according to her, things started going bad a decade ago (or that's how I interpret "the mid 2000's"). The marriage has been sexless for the past three years.

All that alone is more than enough reason for someone to throw in the towel on a marriage, to say, 'we've grown apart." People divorce for those reasons all the time.

Now add to all that the real reason for her letter--husband spends all his free time all day every day, wallowing in graphically violent material, featuring gruesome murder--true crime stories.
Finally she asks him if he ever thinks about killing her--and he says yes.

This is not the same as your girlfriend wanting to strap on a dildo and "rape" you (btw, that "rape" would be consensual in the scenario you're describing, hence, not rape at all, but play).

I think you're not reading this letter. This isn't a sexual fantasy, or at least not only a sexual fantasy.
68
Lady, if you think your husband is trying to kill you, WHAT ARE YOU STILL DOING AT HOME?! GO STAY SOMEWHERE TO WHICH HE DOES NOT HAVE A KEY. Then consult a professional. It's better to be the woman who was too paranoid and had a counselor tell her "It's nothing you silly" than to be DEAD. Tell him you'll come back if he goes for therapy—you can't afford not to do it; if it were brain cancer, you'd find a way to pay for it—or tell him you'll come back if he gets himself together or tell him you're not coming back, but GET OUT FIRST!!

Mr. Savage is spot-on with this. GET THE HECK OUT OF THERE and then sweat the small stuff.
69
Assuming the letter writer is real, I think Adversary seriously misreads the situation.

From the original letter: "I asked him about the details and he said that sometimes he thinks about choking me to death but then the thought makes him sad and he stops what he's doing and does something else for a bit.

He says he'd miss me if I wasn't around."

A few observations:
a) Anyone with training or experience in the area recognizes the danger;
b) The SO recognizes the danger -- her intuition is all but screaming at her;
c) The main reason he gives for not doing it is all about him -- he would miss her. What happens if sometime he decides he won't miss her? Or if she wants to leave (and now his main reason not to act is moot).
d) He is doing almost nothing to address the issue -- despite the request of his SO. (Not killing someone -- yet -- hardly qualifies as action.)
e) This is not someone who wants to play with poop, tie someone up, or even play with breathing related kinks. This is someone who fantasizes about killing his SO. Someone who has clearly visualized doing so (complete with how to do it).
f) There may very well be serious mental health issues as well.

UBWTBS: Please take this seriously and put your safety first. I would suggest you take these steps:
a) Don't change how you act around him. Don't share that you posted this and don't share that you are talking to others.
b) Consult with a DV outreach program. Do so in a way that you won't be monitored by your SO. This might mean calling from work.
c) The DV group will help you create an escape plan. Follow their plan and take their advice as if your life depends on it. Because it may.
d) Recognize that this may ultimately help him as well. (If you die, it has consequences for him as well. This might also spur him to get the help he likely needs).

I hope UBWTBS reports back someday.
70
@62: Actually stopping short of total honesty--not telling your partner that you always pretend they're Prince Charles during sex, with a list of the many, many ways you find them physically, emotionally, and intellectually inferior to him; not telling them that you fantasize about murdering them--is known as having a good grasp of boundaries, and empathizing with others enough to figure out what might be upsetting to hear.

He has a history of depression and is now increasingly obsessive about fantasized violence--to the point of murder, to the extent that his wife is afraid of him. AND you think he may have an interest in very extreme sadism kink that stops short of actually murdering your partner. You don't think getting the first under control is a prerequisite before playing around with the second?

71
@61, maybe you haven't read the letter too closely- but husband and wife don't have sex. He has become asexual, she goes out a bit- to find sex/ relationships. She doesn't specify.
And I don't know what letter you have read, but this guy is presenting psychologically damaged behaviour.. This woman feels fear. This man says very weird , disturbing things to his wife.. Maybe her going out for sex has tipped him over the edge- she , doesn't sound too sensitive to how he might really be coping with her sexual adventures..
My gut reaction to this letter, was fear, threat and danger.
72
I definitely think 15 gives good advice, as many of the commenters do. I am particularly concerned because he says that he imagines killing her in a situation where he just goes too far or loses control. What that really means is he imagines doing it in a way where he convinces himself that he couldn't help himself, even though he could. That he has already imagined killing her and justifying it to himself as not fully his fault. That's really scary. He seems to be building up in his head reasons why he might kill his wife without being fully responsible for killing his wife.

I don't think he's actually mentally ill. I think he probably just has found a strong sexual kink and isn't interested in sex without a strong violent element (possibly including death). The problem is, he is aware that he cannot ethically indulge in it, so he is not having sex at all. Which is good. The bigger problem is if he gets tired of that and does want to get off... Which makes me really worry that his horniness and curiosity may be building. Sure, maybe he'll stay decent and never kill anyone. Could happen. But that is really, really not the sort of thing worth gambling on. Especially when you already aren't happy to live there.

Basic rules for relationships:
If you don't trust your partner, then your relationship is severely damaged and may need to end.
If your partner does not trust you, then your relationship is severely damaged and may need to end.
If you don't feel happier being around your partner (in general / most of the time), then your relationship is severely damaged and may need to end.
If you don't feel safe being around your partner then your relationship is badly broken and absolutely should end.

There are likely others. That's 3 out of 4 when you only need 1... Get out. But do, please, get out safely.
73
#s 69 and 72 are worth reading.
74
LW, your husband may very well pick up a change in you, assuming you are listening to the responses here; and sense you are planning to get away.
If he is teetering on a psychotic break, which is highly likely- you mentally leaving but still being there could activate his break. Don't stay in the house with him any longer... Grab enough clothes to get you by , whatever you can carry without drawing attention, say you're heading out( as you've told us is part of the domestic situation ), and don't go back. Do not spend another night in the house with this man.
It sounds like you two are deeply entwined, so the time it takes to untangle the relationship may be a while.. This mans mind seems to be unhinged. He may be able to repair, but that's his work to do, hopefully, with very skilled and kind therapists.


75
@7: It's Margo Howard, idiot.
76
When I was 17, my 18 yo boyfriend went to japan as an exchange student for the summer.
When he got back, he wasn't interested in sex at all- wasn't interested in me at all, was depressed and weird.

Not long after, his mother kicked him out of the house because she kept finding child porn (not 15 yo girls, prepubescent girls).

Then I found out that there was an 11 yo girl at his host family's house.

I've always wondered if something happened while he was there... if he did something to that little girl. It seems odd that an 18yo boy away from his gf (and we f***ed all the time before he left) for more than 3 months would come back and not be interested at all in sex unless he had an hour alone with his computer first.

Anyway, that experience makes me wonder if something happened with this guy to trigger his depression.
77
@61

I agree with the other posters. The guy is consuming as much material as possible about murder. It goes beyond porn and sexual fantasy. He is studying actual murders and killers, and spending the majority of his free time doing so. He admits to fantasizing about killing her. He does not talk about it like a fetish. It makes him cry. He says if he killed her, he’d miss her. He can’t stop himself for even a day. This is creepy.

Using the example of the rape fetish…

If your partner has a rape fetish, that's one thing. That said, you have more than enough reason to feel concerned if 1) all non rapey sex is off the table, or sex altogether is off the table 2) your partner tells you they fantasize about actually raping you and then start to cry about it because it makes them sad and they don’t want you to get raped 3) the rape fetish is all consuming, and takes up the majority of media consumption and free time, and 4) the rape fetishist then consumes as much as possible about actual rapists, rape victims and rapes.
78
@69 has a very good point:
>>The main reason he gives for not doing it is all about him -- he would miss her. What happens if sometime he decides he won't miss her? Or if she wants to leave (and now his main reason not to act is moot).>>
79
yes, EricaP - re what @69 pointed out.. What chilling words from the husband, eh? A veiled, controlling threat. That's why LW, needs to guard her safety very very well, as she leaves.
80
How you leave :

You pack as little as you can as not to give him any suspicion that you're packing (your papers, your work records, your bank account). Forget about clothes, memories, etc.

You put them in a trash bag and you nonchalantly walk the trash out. No last look, no tearful farewell.

You get into the car and you drive at least 100 miles. Into where nobody knows you, or him.

Then you go to a police station (appliable where policemen are not likely to force drive you home or kill you for just looking at them wrong) and ask for the nearest women's shelter. At the women's shelter you explain your situation and ask for help about where to stay, and what to do with the police about the stalker you have who obsesses over killing you. Police will probably not be supportive (women always pretend about being threatened just to make themselves more interesting) but women's shelter will probably be.

You have no kids : you don't have to plan your escape from within. Escape first, and then seek help.

Don't seek help/plan from a computer at home. Don't give any hint that you're gone forever. You're just emptying some trash.

And then you may stay alive.
81
Suiciders are at heightened risk when they not only obsess over it, but have also worked out the exact technical details as well (when, how, where to leave the body, how to make sure the body is found not by impressionable loved ones if there are any, etc.).

Murderers I don't know. But this guy knows who, how, where and has already planned for his defense (sex game that went to far). And not only in his own head ; he's also voiced it to her.

RUN.
82
LW, if you're reading this, please let us (or at least Dan) know you made it out. We're worried about you.
83
I would also consider getting a hard drive and doing a time machine backup of the computer before you leave as well as gathering as much evidence as you can of his reading and watching habits, and anything else. Obviously ASAP- don't take your time, and don't do anything that he can track (use cash or borrow the drive, do it when he's not home, etc.). I agree that saying if he killed you he'd miss you is a huge warning sign that this guy is not right in the head. You will see you did the right thing as time passes. You can do better.
84
Regardless if this guy is actually going to go through with his fantasies or if, as some have said, they are probably all in his head and he won't act on them - why is she staying with him?

It doesn't sound like they have any common interests; there aren't any kids; he doesn't seem willing to work on his depression.

I understand she may feel guilty leaving him when he has health issues (mental in this case). And it may cost her to support him if they break up. And they have a long history. But she needs to ask the question: Is she better off with or without him? Even without the killing fantasies, it seems the answer is she is better off without him.

85
@61: Fantasizing about murdering your wife to the point where your wife is very aware of it every day is domestic abuse.

"It is entirely possible that this will be a kink"

This is not a kink. This is not consensual. You're pretty fucked up for not knowing the difference between fantasy and reality. S&M lifestyle roleplaying is understandable. Murder your wife roleplaying, not at all so.

This is someone damaged beyond (her) care. There's really no going back from anything like this.
86
Besides that it's not "roleplaying". He's sobbing and telling her how much he doesn't want to murder her. That is someone struggling with impossible-to-channel impulses. He needs help and she needs out ASAP.
87
What if the husband is already murdering women?
88
@87: They can make this work!
89
This doesn’t sound like depression to me so much as schizophrenia. Being nonjudgmental of people with schizophrenia-type thought disorders doesn’t make their thought less disordered.

Yes, yes, people with treated mental illness are statistically less dangerous than the general population. We’re talking about someone with an untreated obsession with murder. Taking him seriously is not discriminating unfairly against the mentally ill. It’s just taking him seriously.
90
@33 not just you, I was LOL, ROFL, LMFAO reading this. Gallows humor, and the situation is so shocking -- well, laughter is a defense mechanism, right?

Plus the letter was written so brilliantly clueless / almost but not quite conscious of the danger LW is in, it could have been an Onion letter to Dan.

Plus Dan's use of paced use caps throughout his reply, and the Ann Landers reference, hilarious.

Like everyone else I am also worried for LW and hope she leaves carefully and fast (intimate partner violence shelter help). If she doesn't want him prosecuted, she needs to be careful of law enforcement being involved (see the cannibal cop whose conviction was overturned): but going to police is an option if he doesn't get help and she wants to protect others.
91
Dan, please keep in touch with this LW and let us know she is ok.
92
The LW may not see the situation as urgent as we do and may think we are overreacting in our insistence she get out NOW. After all she’s been living with this for years and she’s still alive.

To that I would say, if she is following, that she is writing now for a reason. She’s gotten used to the monkey house but even so it is now intolerable. Something is changing, whether her, him or both, and a delicate balance may be about to collapse.

See @69: if he perceives that you will leave he has lost his reason to not murder you. You are thinking about leaving.

Stop thinking and just go. No matter how overreacting it feels. Things are changing and it’s not for the better. So go. Now.
93
#89--We’re talking about someone with an untreated obsession with murder. Taking him seriously is not discriminating unfairly against the mentally ill. It’s just taking him seriously.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

LW, this is not a safe situation. This is not a safe situation for him--healthy people do not develop PLANS to murder people--and it sure as hell is not a safe situation for you.

Did he say, "Yes, I am going to kill you?" Not in those words, but he's told you that he fantasizes about killing you and he has figured out how he is going to kill you. It is no longer a question of if, nor even of how, but of when. And you know that, because that's the funny feeling in your gut....it's just that you didn't like the answer and you're looking for one that isn't so horrifying. He is telling the truth. Believe him.

So, here is what you do.

Leave. Today. Go somewhere safe where he doesn't have a key and it won't be obvious that you're there (such as immediate family). If a DV shelter isn't an option, even paying cash at a KOA Kampground is better than going somewhere where he will find you. Don't make a fuss or a scene, just grab your things, get in the car, and go.

When you've contacted the DV hotline, have them contact your workplace. Your work HR needs to know this, because if he calls them and they don't know, they may say, oh yeah, she's here!

One final note....it's okay to still love your husband if you do, and it's okay to be hurt and grieve and scared and completely boggled. But: he has said he is going to kill you. Believe him. Leave. Today.
94
Another thing: go to the store and get a pay-as-you-go flip phone. You can get one for about $20 and get $20 of airtime. Put all the numbers you need in there--family, trusted friends, DV shelter, work numbers--and then use that phone exclusively. Keep your other phone turned off, especially if you have a smartphone with GPS tracking.

Stay off of social media, too. No Facebook, no Twitter or Linkedin or G+.
95
I think the situation with the cannibal cop is instructive. Leave now, take the laptop with you and have it analyzed. There's going to be evidence enough on there to have the guy arrested, which you want, because he's still dangerous after you leave. That's what cannibal cop's wife did, and she was taken seriously. Just because he eventually got out, he's still been through the system, is stripped of his authority position and is known to the system now, so he's no longer a threat to her or to their kid. I doubt he'll be able to get in her zip code after all that shit that went down. Getting out is dangerous, but she needs to neutralize this guy as an on-going threat, too.
96
If @40 wasn't pulled for trolling, I hate to imagine what the trolls whose comments WERE pulled said.
97
Make your plans to get out. Do it in secret. When you're ready to leave, tell him so and have someone else with you when you do it. Don't be alone with him from that point forward.

Probably what he says is true, and he doesn't actually want to kill you. Certainly he needs massive amounts of councelling - but it's not in any way your responsibility to make sure that happens. What you need to do is take care of yourself, which means treating this as if the worst case scenario is true. And in the worst case scenario, you need to leave - while being very, very conscious that the time when you leave will be the time you're most at risk. Best of luck to you, and I'm so sorry you're in such a hard, scary situation.
98
@LW: Get out, and get out now, like everyone else is saying.

For future reference, though, the murder fantasies aren't the primary reason--even if he wasn't doing that, you should still leave just because it isn't making you happy. The part that most DTMFA letters include about how the LW really loves the MF except for this one little thing? That's conspicuously absent here. Even if he wasn't fantasizing about killing you, why stay?

Even if he isn't going to kill you, "probably isn't going to kill me" isn't a reason to stay married to someone. The element of "makes me happy" is important, and it seems to be missing.
99
Or if the best thing a defender can say about the guy to (horrifyingly) get you to stay is "at least he's not pooping into your mouth!"
100
Hey, if it was good enough for John Lennon! Most of his love songs were pleas to women to stick around and look after him on the grounds of “I’ll never do you no harm.” I never found that to be a turn-on but it seemed to work for him.
101
I do hope the lw sees these comments. Maybe Dan, who has her email address, can send her a message telling her to read them.
102
If he's her husband, can't she legally have him committed?

He needs psychiatric help, and she needs to get the fuck away from him. But if she just leaves, there's still a chance he might attack her or someone else. Does she want to end up in the news saying "well, i knew he had these thoughts, but i didn't want to be judgmental, after all, at least he wasn't shitting in my mouth"? Getting away from him is absolutely essential, but it's not enough.

GTFO, and then get him the fuck IN.