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Comments
What a con. It's the bullshit that would get to me.
Oh honey. I don't do kinks. I'm so monogamous.
LW; Kick this lying piece of shit way over to the other curb. And go find yourself an honest man. Who is into the kinks you are into.
When I finished reading the letter, I laughed at dtmfa vs over reacting. This is a gold mine. She has been denying herself kink for years, but she's going to get it now with or without her husband. If she gets her kink on with others without touching them, he has absolutely no room to talk. I'd tell her to finally put her own needs on the table, now that there's more room to outsource what he doesn't want to handle himself. Use it to finally bring a good sex life to what seems to be a good relationship out-of-bed.
And I'm sorry, but taking your girlfriend's dildo and inviting some other chick to screw herself with it is just icky. I don't care if they only used it once or twice and it's been gathering dust. Just - ick.
Sounds like an insecure (I mean, he was hiding his kinks and getting jelly all the while indulging himself!), selfish dick.
If he doesn't start pulling his weight emotionally and physically, DTMFA.
Maybe things can turn around and he can bring some of this kinkiness home and be more open and honest; but my guess is that this guy won't ever be able to get over the whole virgin-whore conundrum that's polluting his brain.
Also, AIO has every right to be pissed about the dildo, and yes, it is a big deal. Whether or not she had used it recently, or was going to use it anytime soon is irrelevant. Borrowing your partner's dildo without their permission and letting a stranger penetrate themselves with it is a total breach of trust, a breach of basic politeness and consideration, and possibly a breach of safer sex practices (Dan!), particularly if he failed to sterilize it afterwards.
1) Letter writer never mentions a word about the "kinks" she is into. I suspect the poor guy had no idea of anything specific
2) Does anyone think that over ten years the guy was exploring his own life a bit, dabbling in some things he was hoping to figure out and hoping his girlfriend might be interested in? Of course we all wish we could articulate our kind desires, accurately, honestly etc. to our partners. Reality is, it often takes years.
3) I know I am leaving myself open for relentless attack for what I am about to confess. I am a 48 year old gay guy and spent my college years dating and fucking women. I was "bi" then, of course. I became more comfortable identifying as gay, enjoying sex with men, dropping the guilt and fear, growing up a bit. What a relief to embrace a full on "gay" identity and never have to figure out, tip toe around the feelings of women who expect their men to be mind readers.
Dan, I think your instincts are correct here. Your responses are reasonable assuming the letter is accurately describing the TEN YEAR history. The guy is a bit of jerk, but something is telling me there is more to this story.
As Dan said, the line between erotica and porno is so blury it's hard to really see he did anything that wrong.
So she wants him to be more kinky, and he gets a tiny bit more kinky, but she doesn't want him to be that kind of kinky, not pornographic kinky, just erotic kinky, actually he can be pornographic kinky but not with other women, just with her, even though she likes non-traditional relationships, as long as she's the one being non-traditional, because otherwise it's a betrayal, even though monogamy is boring. Like him. Except that he's actually okay with her doing pornography with other men, which is a further outrage. Lady, do you even know what you want?
AIO "values" him for "being trusty, responsible and hard-working". Well, those certainly sound like fine qualities... in an employee. But if they're the first three things you think of in your romantic partner... If I overheard my (hypothetical) significant other bragging about how trusty, responsible, and hard-working I was to her friends, I'd seriously consider dumping her. It comes across like you're just using him. (Which is why I don't find it reprehensible that he's looking for his sex play with other people.)
If AIO was ever all that into him, there's no evidence of it in her letter. She never writes anything about affection, or respect, and the sex has never been what she wants, and I'm sure her body language has made that quite clear to him over the years. And if he ever was all that into her, he certainly hasn't been for the last two years.
I don't see how this incident can possibly improve things. Their communication and his trust in her were fucked and this is only going make that worse. I don't see any sign of either party having respect or even liking for the other. I don't see how this relationship is salvageable. And I have no idea why anyone would want to salvage it.
It sounds like they'd both rather be with other people.
AIO's just discovered he's been lying to her for the last two years, and when she picks three positive adjectives to describe him, she STILL picks "trustworthy" over "hot" or "affectionate" or "fun to be with" or "gives me what I want in bed". FFS, lady, listen to yourself.
The double standard is a red flag for me. She gets years of hell for her emotional affair but his physical affair and downright betrayals are supposed to get a pass?
LW DTFMA.
1) Dildo situation, UNACCEPTABLE. He probably would have asked her if he could use it for a shoot if he didn't know it was outside of what their mutually agreed upon boundaries are. I would be really offended if my partner asked me to photograph another woman using one of my (even rejected) sex toys. If he did it without asking?!?!? I would feel extremely betrayed.
2) Yes, the line between erotic and pornographic is blurry, but it certainly seems like they agreed on a degree of other women's nudity that was acceptable to occur as a part of his hobby.
3) I think that when someone who is interested in non-monogamy pays "opportunity costs" because it's what would make their partner feel more secure, it is hard to help holding that partner to an extremely high standard of monogamous boundaries, particularly because they should know that you would be open to talking about changing those boundaries.
I think that there are lots of boundaries that are important within a relationship that don't make sense from outside looking in. Personally, I know that there are things that my partner could do that would seem mundane without knowing the whole entire backstory, but that would hurt me more than him cheating and immediately disclosing.
LW's SO was at best MEGA inconsiderate and at worst willfully destructive. Not sure this is a DTMFA, but it's definitely a "talk this shit out, probably with a professional third party".
Good luck, LW, I hope you both get what you need to be happy and fulfilled.
He's either inexcusably clueless or a complete bastard.
But that's only going to work if you are able to forgive him, which will be hard, but I think is worth doing if the rest of the relationship is everything you want it to be.
I hope you will write Dan back and let us know how the dust settles.
But he never really did.
Learnt the lesson. Way too late I guess. But now, no more expecting anyone to know if they have stepped on my toes. Now I Iouldly say ouch.
Also, I get Dan's point at the end, that he's coming around to being flexible on monogamy, so maybe it's a good thing. But I bet you dollars to donuts that this new found flexibility doesn't extend both ways, regardless of what he says.
That's what this entire letter is about.
Dan's response was right on.
And yeah, #18, nice how she kind of casually tosses off an actual attachment on her part, as if "and believe me, it was purely emotional" somehow makes it all okay. Purely emotional attachments are the ones you end up leaving your partner for, dumb LW. Nobody leaves their wife over a fuck buddy. So if anything your "purely emotional" affair was a bigger problem than him taking crotch shots made under purely financial terms. Whether the model was the paying client, or he was paying the model to follow his directions, this was not a case of him fooling around with a side squeeze. Unlike the person who was toying with your heart.
The dildo, on the other hand, inexcusable.
Is this a real business? If so, and it's providing money for the two of them, it could be tough to refuse a request from the clients to take any photos they wanted. If that is the case (rather than his paying people to let him take erotic pictures for himself), then I can see why he'd take the forbidden photos (and money) and just not show them to her. I don't understand why she thinks he's having the equivalent of sex if she believes it's all business for him and he was not aroused.
An "emotional affair" can absolutely be more devastating than a physical one; it's certainly not something for her to dismiss so casually. She apparently feels guilty enough to bring it up to Dan, even though she claims it's not relevant to the present situation.
She sounds a bit controlling, he sounds uncommunicative, passive, and sullen; they both need to open up to each other a lot more, or break it off.
I agree, and I think that's a good summation of why this letter is setting off a lot of people's DTMFA alarms. In my mind, the "just get over it" advice would actually apply more if, say, there was a drunken cheating episode for which AIO's partner was totally repentant.
The LWs emotional attachment happened at the beginning of their relationship, like 10 yrs ago.
As for the rest of her letter, the while tale is a bit one-sided and full of holes. Big holes that the commenters seem more than willing to fill with assumptions. Take the original pornographic picture she complained about: the forklift. She says that she expressed the opinion that such pictures were pornographic rather than just erotic. She never says he promised to stop taking such pictures or that he lied about whether he was still shooting pornographic shots. She also never explains why they stopped taking their own porno shots--just that they stopped. She downplays her "emotional transgression," but seems to think it worth mentioning. She says she wanted more kink and a more fluid monogamy, but again gives no details. Several commenters seem to have decided this means he is a hypocrite--refusing to indulge her kinks while hiding his own, but he claimed he wasn't getting off on taking these pictures. I think most of you are unfounded in the assumption that he was denying her sexual outlets while secretly enjoying an outlet he had agree to eschew. Most telling of all, the LW signs off with "Am I Overreacting?" I don't know whether she is or not. She doesn't provide enough detail. But the commenters here certainly are overreacting. She doesn't need to DTMFA. She needs to sit and have a long heart-to-heart with her SO. Maybe they should go back to their own intimate photography. Maybe--assuming her kinks aren't too extreme--he'll be ready to reconsider some more interesting sex play. Theses guys don't need to burn bridges--just to cross them.
in full view.
IN FULL. VIEW.
Also: "We special ordered it from a glassmaker in the States, to our specifications." Is the bit about the glassmaker being in the states some subtext about dildos I don't know? Are US glass dildos higher quality? Does the LW just support US business and want us to know?
Great basis for an intimacy.
LW; move on. This man is a dishonest piece of work.
She made a bad choice ten years ago. It was more of a problem than she thought it would be, getting together with a vanilla guy, and now she wants everything to be his fault. I'm not buying it.
He has become a weird and deceitful person. How could one trust him into the future?
At that point. He needed to stand up to her. Not pretend he accepted the limits she asked for, then proceed to take the pornographic pictures again.
Trust is gone.
And am I the only one (besides Dan) who thinks getting some use out of an object which has been lying around for YEARS in a drawer, which will never be used again, wasn't necessarily so bad?
Yes, he told her he'd stop shooting porn, and he didn't, and he didn't fess up about it. She's right to be pissed off. But it sounds like she can use this as a springboard to get him to be more kinky with her, in other words, to her advantage.
Could she ask to be present at shoots? That might be a hot experience for both of them.
This is a ten year monogamous Union. And he says he hasn't fucked them. Would you believe him? I wouldn't. He lies. He covers his tracks/ though not well enough.
Aasking to join in the picture taking sessions could be a good test of his true interest in the relationship with his wife. My bet is he won't agree to it, though I could be mistaken.
So OK, I can see having problems with the husband not asking to use her dildo, but all of these comments about "No, never again, dildos are pair-bonded for life with the original purchase" seem silly to me.
"Hmm -- try facing me instead/ not quite so low/put your knee on the stool" [otherwise directs her into a different pose]
"That's a little more extreme than I want to go for this shoot."
Reading between the lines: She cheated, then spent ten years constantly accusing him of cheating and/or of wanting to cheat, including pretending that taking pictures is sex. So that's the kind of person she is. Now, let's talk about her peach of a partner, because 24 says it all:
"DTMFA. This is the typical type of man who acts more vanilla than vanilla beans because he's unwilling to process, accept and share his kinks, and sooner or later turns out to be indulging them elsewhere. It's not just the breach of faith that makes his behavior so hurtful - it's also the fact that this shows he is uninterested in an honest, intimate conversation with the LW."
LW: You made a couple of really bad decisions a little while ago. Break up, and stop trying to blame your bad decisions on other people. You won't lose anything you haven't already lost. Next time, look for a partner you actually like, instead of just a good employee.
Or if he is really that dumb then the LW is better off with someone else. Either which way, there is a novel's worth of material here and we're only seeing a brief synopsis.
I thinks she has a right to be mad, but typically snooping brings down a rabid condemnation even when it turns out the person being snooped on really was hiding something they shouldn't have been. But oddly not this time.
Oh, and your hobby can be a business too, that you actually get paid for. I have a 9-5 job that ensures I can pay my rent and have health coverage steadily. But my hobby, which is tough as a full time career, still makes me a nice bit of money as a part time occupation on the side, involves clients who sometimes have very specific requests and needs, and uses contracts and deposits and all that fun legal stuff. It's a hobby, in that I do it because I enjoy it outside of my "bread and butter" job, but it is still a business.
2) Fucking yourself with a dildo is a sex act. For one thing, that's clearly NOT boudior photography. Not a blurry line, and I say this as a model -fetish, pinup, etc. it's always clear when you are modeling. For another, it's a sex act, and most monogamous women would not do that and kid themselves that they're honoring their word. Witnessing it doesn't excuse the man. He's violating their monogamy, and any arguments to the contrary are letter vs spirit debates.
3) If he honestly thought she'd be cool with it, she would know about both the dildo and the photos. If this happened yesterday, we'd be having a different debate. He hid it because he knew he was being an asshole.
4) When you've already crossed the "stole my wife's dildo and encouraged someone else to fuck herself with it" line, there's really not a lot of reason to believe you haven't gone all the way. This isn't some "she flashed me and I didn't know what to do". He provided the toy. He's clearly complicit if not the instigator.
5) I'm kinky. My partner isn't (yet). I'd be hell of furious if he wasn't sharing any emerging kinks with me. You like to cook? I like to eat! What the fuck are you doing hiding your cooking and cooking for someone else?
6) He's a fool. Having been the open, kinky partner, I can tell you that nothing chaps your ass more than the partner who you would allow damn-near anything to going behind your back. It's stupid, and worse, it's selfish. He wants his cake but for her not to have hers. This is super common unfortunately, and really shitty behavior. We're equal or we're not - you don't get to decide to indulge yourself, lie about it, while knowing I'm not and keep your "good partner" card.
Last, this is really infuriating as a woman who's willing to go anywhere with you. It hurts, badly, that someone can take advantage of your perks and then go off and do something with someone else who doesn't see the whole picture. Of course it's fun - who doesn't like escapism? Real intimacy is figuring out your kinks with someone who matters. Being vulnerable. It's a cop-out when men hide their kinks from their wags. It's intimacy-killing and cowardly.
DTMFA. And he can see if any of those models wants to wash his dirty underwear for him.
Context and sensitivity. Grow those muscles and you might earn yourself a lot more latitude. As a woman, those things make all the difference to me. Not much is out of bounds if I trust my partner to use a developed emotional IQ.
He broke two sexual, monogamous agreements. He should have known that her description of the line between pornish shots and art, that the ability to distinguish genital details and asshole that made her uncomfortable, was her monogamous boundary (and he did know since he saved them! for himself but hid them from her). And he should have known not to touch her toys without permission, or involve them in activities she disapproved of. It was wrong of him to hide that he was continuing to take pornish shots and to hide what he did to her dildo.
I can see where the guys are coming from, to wonder if she turned her back on raw attraction for material needs, by giving up on the first affair. It doesn't seem wise to me either, she may have chosen companionate love over sex, but there's no accounting for taste.
Since I wasn't rabidly on the man's side, I was able to notice shit like this:
The fact that he doesn’t feel like he’s done anything wrong in taking those pictures (other than the permission aspect)
The only thing that makes anything "right" or "wrong" in a relationship is the permission aspect. You are either following the mutual agreement or not following it. Right or wrong. This was no miscommunication of the fine print, this is systematic disrespect. It seems like Dan and the dude are trying to wheedle out of that conclusion, but that just makes the burn worse. But maybe she can live with what he needs, and he can be happy doing it above board, if she's getting her needs met too --> and they get happy enough to forgive each other.
This isn't really an issue of "you endangered my health by touching someone else's business with a fully sterilizable object", this is a "you enabled someone to commit a sex act in front of you, using an object that was part of our private intimate life".
and, at all of the people who say she's controlling for caring what kind of photos he's taking, I don't think it's ridiculous for someone to feel threatened by their partner doing something that involves them so intimately in someone else's sexual expression if they are choosing to be monogamous. It is fine that she is uncomfortable with anything, and it's not controlling for her to voice that. He could have said "it is really important to me to be able to express my creativity however I see fit, and if you're not comfortable with that then this won't work".
There's no indication that he sees it that way, which seems to be a common problem here: Agreements aren't agreements until both people agree. "Our private intimate life" isn't just a label that the woman gets to use; for it to be unobjectionably true, they'd both have to think that, and her shitforbrains husband apparently doesn't.
Given that she cheated, then spent ten years accusing him of being a cheater and being resentful of his lack of interest in nonmonogamy, I can kind of see why they haven't had any open conversations about this.
Quote one person who was "rabidly on the man's side." One single person. You're freaking out that not quite everyone was rabidly on the woman's side, the same way everyone with an entitlement complex always does.
I think Chaucer59 @37 is right: “These guys don't need to burn bridges--just to cross them.” (If they can, together) And honeybunny @38 is right that they should start here:
>> Talk it out then spend time apart. Reflect on yourself and what you want in life. Come back ready to talk about what you want from here on out, and also be ready to listen to him. You'll get a feeling if you are still on the same path together or if this is where the road splits >>
Counseling might help too, since they seem to have a history of not communicating well.
I'd be surprised if there was no "sexual behavior" in her affair, given that she spent the next ten years trying to find ways to call her husband a cheater. She clearly got caught cheating, or almost cheating. She's more of a cheater than he is, and she's rounding him up to "cheater," so...
Also, I'm not sure where you are getting "spent ten years accusing him of being a cheater" from - is that the case? All I see here is that a few years ago (many years into their relationship), she asked him not to continue a particular element of his new hobby, to which he agreed (when later continued to do deceitfully).
Obviously she is carrying some resentment about being non-manogamous (I think there are very few LTRs that are ENTIRELY free of resentment), but seeing as she paid the price for years for stepping outside the fuzzy lines, I can understand how hurt she is by him stepping outside the (IMO) less fuzzy lines..
Granted. I'll quibble that Mr. Shitforbrains doesn't seem like the kind of person who thinks very well, but yes; it's being charitable, though it's amusing that when I called him "shitforbrains," someone said I was being pretty charitable.
True, but still amusing.
"Also, I'm not sure where you are getting "spent ten years accusing him of being a cheater" from - is that the case? "
While I mentioned in 55 that this was reading between the lines a bit, consider this line:
"I feel like I’ve been replaced and cheated on."
She--the one who had the affair--literally used the word "cheating" to describe non-cheating conduct from a partner who hasn't had an affair. What a shithead.
"All I see here is that a few years ago (many years into their relationship), she asked him not to continue a particular element of his new hobby"
Who's being too generous now? You also seem to leave out that the person whose fidelity is being questioned is the partner who got cheated on, not the partner who had the affair.
What matters is this: Be wary of people who define "cheating" very narrowly when it comes to something they did, and very broadly when it comes to their spouse's behavior. Especially when their own episode came first.
It's disgusting for the person who cheats to cast aspersions on the one who doesn't. Common, but disgusting. We should stop encouraging it. Once you cheat, your right to accuse a non-cheating spouse of cheating is gone forever.
Cheating while accusing the non-cheater of cheating is textbook abusive behavior.
Anyhow, I think this is totally salvageable (is that a word?). And for you ladies who, every time Dan has this kind of tolerant advice for this kind of cheating-by-hubby problem, rush in the comments section like a hoard of angry bulls to demand that the lady dumps his man while insulting Dan, I would say this: obviously you never have long-term relationship if you are that drastic and intolerant. And obviously, you are the type of person to ignore your own failures while harshly judging the failures of these men.
He was the one doing things on the sly. Hiding photos, using her things without asking. Even if it was her curling iron that is NOT right. He didn't ask her not because he didn't think she didn't care about the dildo, but because he KNEW he was doing something SNEAKY with it.
Your dislike of women is leaking through again.
Anyhow, I think this is totally salvageable (is that a word?). And for you ladies who, every time Dan has this kind of tolerant advice for this kind of cheating-by-hubby problem, rush in the comments section like a hoard of angry bulls to insult Dan and demand that the lady immediately dumps his man, I would say this: obviously you never have long-term relationships if you are that drastic and intolerant. And obviously, you are the type of person to ignore your own failures while harshly judging the failures of others.
B. Making up patently ridiculous rules for your partner to follow means you don't care about them. Go fuck yourself.
What she's upset about is that he can't see/admit that he did something wrong. My focus was there, because what she is upset about isn't what happened as much as the fact that it broke rules she felt were understood, and he agrees it broke rules but isn't communicating to her satisfaction either his remorse or his commitment to make things better.
And that's where a lot of long term relationships start to fray, is in the "here's how I'll fix things" category.
So I think that's where they need help. I think she can easily forgive him, but they need to establish both where communication broke down and how they can prevent the same thing from happening over and over.
Dumping someone after 10 years because they took dirty pictures would be silly. Dumping someone after 10 years because they did something that hurt you and seemed unconcerned about it seems like a good life choice.
If he is completely above board in what he does then he should take his wife with him to a shoot as an assistant to watch the process or even just to be there when shoots like this happen. This is what all professional photographers do in this situation. Maybe not their wife but there should be other witnesses so that you can always be sure you are protected as well as your client from any accusations and to keep things in a professional environment.
Also when looking at this sort of photographers portfolio you can usually tell if they are legit immediately by looking for them men. Are their men in the portfolio? NO then probably not a professional photographer but a GWC.
If he can't tell his wife what he does then he's aware that it's not ok ... PERIOD!
He shouldn't have taken her dildo whether she uses it or not its her intimate property and clearly has sentimental value for her.
You are so off on this one Dan it's not funny.
Did he feel her rule was unreasonable but not know how to assert himself with her?
Did he feel her rule was reasonable but couldn't assert himself with the clients?
Did he feeel her rule was reasonable but kind of enjoyed breaking it?
So many options here.
Should an alcoholic work in a bar? Should an newly ex-smoker go to an all-guys poker game where there is smoking? Should an unrepentant speeder buy a sports car? Should a straight dude be photographing naked women unsupervised? What could possibly go wrong?!? Of god-damn-fucking course, there is going to be mission creep. She can either be all non-monogamously cool with some lines getting crossed and corrections being required, or she can "trust but verify" more actively than snooping after several years.
He did lots of minor things wrong (loaning out dildo = tone deaf and wrong; versus fucking your sister = much more wronger), but she's on this weird high&mighty horse about these transgressions.
But 21 got to the punchline first - she's not in love or in lust with him anymore (sounds like she never was) and they each should be with someone else.
He gave her a tactical nuclear button to slam. She's treating it as a full-on strategic launch of all ICBMs and wants Dan's permission to slam that button. She has my permission. For both their sakes.
Which, you know, most of the time we ask our spouses/SOs to stop doing things, they don't. Not to be a relationship party pooper, but that's just reality. The image that our wants are going to make our SOs give up porn, or masturbation, or gambling, or expensive wine, or whatever is just our fantasy of relationships. The reality is that we just drive them underground. People don't tend to change because we ask them tom
He didn't hide it at first.
Seems the issue has been beaten to death already...but i'll add my voice to the chorus of "a penetrative sex toy belongs to the hole its been in,...and no other..."
LW - you sound like a typical busy body. Your husband probably decided that the risk of this causing a fight was worth it...just to avoid "negotiating" with you. Not excusing him... but you know the saying..."its easier to ask for forgiveness than permission". And maybe he simply doesn't care if you grant him either anymore. The letter defines some very specific grievances.... but your relationship is floundering for some very general reasons.
Dan- wish you'd tell use country of origin on some of these letters. Naturally, i always assume USA for obvious reasons... but... this letter came from elsewhere.... so.... where?
--
Like almost every man-woman conflict, this is really about Control. AIO wants exclusive control over her partners sexual output. This is a societally agreed upon ideal. As I argued on another thread, this is in conflict with a male's basic desire to have an unlimited number of sex partners. Just like porn, this is a watered down substitute - he gets to imagine unlimited sex partners instead of have them. I think it's a fair compromise.
All that being said, he should not have allowed anyone to use his wife's dildo. Strangers should not share dildos, needles, condoms, whatever.
Seems a lot of comments this week are conveniently ignoring the fact that the letters states it wasnt just her husband and the model in the room....
"though he claims he was not aroused and that it was all business, not pleasure, and that her husband was present (which I do believe, but doesn’t make a difference in my mind)."
Its not uncommon at all for couples to have erotic photos taken by someone else. Do some of you seriously suppose that the photographer of said pics is by default cheating on his wife?