SL Letter of the Day: Cuck You

Comments

1
Cuckold is a great lifestyle, if you communicate properly. Just as is monomagy. As is poly. Just communicate.

In our relationship, i do all the emailing and he Hotwife only gets involved in he communication process when voice verification is involved. But we look at every opportunity together, and we jointly consider what we are going to say. If here is conversation going on back and forth, and it fall in the general guidelines set by the Hotwife, i can reply. But the Hotwife has final say and if i say something that needs walking back or ruins the opportunity for her, bad on me. The advantage of our system is that i am fully in the loop. And i know the Hotwife well enough to realize that if she does decide to do something on her own, since we have discussed this, she will let me know either right before, during (i hope i hope) or just after.

We also go to sex parties where she can pursue her desires for sex with other men and it happens with me watching. It is impossible to say how hot it was the first time i got grabbed by the Hotwife in the middle of the party and She said come here, i am going to fuck this guy while you do oral on his girlfriend and him.

But this is 5 years into our open arrangement. We know each other so well and we trust in each other and in the cuck lifestyle we have chosen. It might not work for some cuck & Hotwives, and other folk look at us as depraved. Some see my willingness to be bi-sexual when it pleases her as a cover.... but its not and it works for us. Sex has never been better, especially when she lets me please her orally telling me of what she wants to do with a particular prospect.

The other advantage of our style is that the plannin stages are all part of the cuckolding. She would lose all that if she "snuck off" on her own. We feel we practice ethical Hotwifing/cucking.
2
Ohh, last add.... First!
3
I hope they broke up. These things rely on trust, and she's screaming "I'm not trustworthy!" as loudly and as honestly as she can.
4
Rules that have been clearly laid out are only confusing if you're a moron. And who wants to date a moron? I'm ok with x and not y? And you keep doing y? Toast. It doesn't matter that y is a fantasy - it's pretty damn critical for adults who are kinky to distinguish fantasy and reality. If I say I have a rape fantasy but here are my boundaries and you then arrange for a break-in, you're an asshole, an idiot, and inadvertently a criminal.

It behooves the one doing the potentially boundary breaking thing to make sure they're clear on where the boundary actually lies. Dan is far too "oops, I slipped and fell on a cock!" when these scenarios come up. What might be a minor slip-up in his relationship with non-monogamy isn't going to have the same impact to the guy who has trust issues from being repeatedly lied to and cheated on, who is then exploring safety around that through eroticizing it.
5
Also, we all have wounds. Choose a partner who can be understanding of and respectful of those. Not someone who repeatedly pokes you there.
6
@3: Also people shitty at monogamy may be shitty at open relationships for the same exact reason.
7
@ 4 - In spite of all my years of trying, I've never managed to slip and fall on a cock (the closest I ever got was falling on my coccyx). I wonder how these people succeed in doing it so often.
8
@7: When you've got an oily personality, "accidental slippage" is inevitable.
9
I hope we're talking about falling on someone else's cock. Falling on your own seems like a disaster. Less explaining to the significant other would be required, though.

Actually, maybe not.
10
I am sympathetic to her. The reason it's hard to find women interested in cuckold games is that many women find it hard to have fun, intimate sex with another person, while knowing that they're expected to transform that intimate moment into a dirty story for their husband. I can see her wanting to build a connection with her OKCupid guy, without the stress of having to report all the details to her husband.

Granted, she should have negotiated for that up-front, but confessing two weeks later (without having gotten caught) shows some good faith on her part. And maybe he's not the easiest person to negotiate with (as evidenced by her needing to get drunk before she could admit the truth). And sneaking extra sex with an acknowledged current sex partner (someone you would probably be allowed to have sex with if you asked first), that's really not the same kind of betrayal as sneaking outside sex in a supposedly monogamous relationship.

So, I'm with Dan. They need to learn to talk to each other. But if he wants someone who will play these games with him, he's probably better off working to build trust again with her and improve their joint communication skills, rather than jumping ship and simply hoping to find a better match with his current communication skills.
11
Sounds like the fairly normal adjustment period for opening up a relationship. If what you want is a few one-offs, and not dating situations, say that. "I don't want us actually dating other people. Hookups is one thing, seeing someone multiple times feels like cheating to me, and it's breakup-worthy."
12
@10: Sneaking extra sex after you've apparently agreed not to seems like pretty much exactly the same kind of betrayal as sneaking outside sex in a supposedly monogamous relationship, doesn't it?

He doesn't say what the rules were, but he does say that she agreed to follow them and then repeatedly chose not to. That's pretty much what betrayal is, and he clearly took it that way. Since, demonstrably, she can't be trusted to abide by relationship agreements, he should not be in a relationship with her (and neither should anyone else, probably).

BTW, someone letting something slip when drunk is not evidence that their partner deserved it. If I stole your wallet and, later, got drunk and admitted it, that doesn't mean you deserved to have your wallet stolen.
13
Just to reiterate: Having a fantasy doesn't mean people get to do it to you in real life without your permission.
14
If my partner said I could have a guy stick his dick in me twice on Monday, but instead I did once on Monday and secretly did it again on Tuesday -- no, I don't think that's "pretty much exactly the same kind of betrayal" as not mentioning that I was going to have any outside sex at all.
15
I have to agree with @4 and @12. LW may not be able to adequately label is kinks and desires to Dan's satisfaction, but the general parameters of what outside sexual contact is permissible and what is not permissible seem clear enough, and LW's girlfriend understood what was allowed and what was not allowed. LW's kinks may not neatly fall into any commonly defined category. That's fine, so long as his kinks are pursued safely, sanely, and consensually. I also have to disagree with @10, LW's girlfriend's drunk confessions may reflect poorly on her, but aren't evidence of anything about LW.

That said, I'm not in favor of LW dumping this woman just yet. Exploring openness in a relationship isn't easy, and she's made some mistakes, but that doesn't mean she can't learn from this experience. That presupposes that she's invested in making this relationship work, and wants to be with LW, rather than OkC-guy, or someone else.
16
Eudaemonic @12 "letting something slip when drunk"
Is that how you interpret: "two weeks later, she got drunk and told me she had seen the OKCupid guy again without asking"?

To me, the LW seems to be saying his gf needed liquid courage to reveal something she knew she had to reveal despite how nervous she felt.
17
EricaP: The neighbor kid and I used to play Cops'n'Robbers. That means I can just go shoot him, right? After all, we once agreed that I would pretend to shoot him, under controlled circumstances, and with permission.

That means I can actually shoot him, under uncontrolled circumstances, and without permission, right?

And if I don't confess to shooting him while sober, that means he deserved to be shot, right?

I also get to go rape anyone with whom I've ever done a roleplay rape fantasy, right? Because we're in opposite-world where conditional consent isn't conditional, apparently.

If you agree to have sex, and you agree to PIV but not anal, and your partner decides to go ahead and do anal, he has in fact violated the agreement. If you shoot someone, having sometimes played cops'n'robbers doesn't make you not a murderer. If you cheat on someone, having once had outside sex with permission doesn't make you not a CPOS. She's a CPOS.
18
EricaP, do you understand that having once played cops'n'robbers with someone does not entitle you to shoot him with an actual gun? Or to steal anything?

Do you understand that roleplaying a rape scene does not entitle anyone to rape you?

Permission to pretend to do something, in controlled circumstances, and with advance permission is not the same thing as permission to actually do it, in uncontrolled circumstances, and without permission. If you agree to PIV but not anal, and your partner decides to go ahead and do anal anyway, your agreement to something different isn't agreement to everything.

Conditional consent is conditional.

This isn't complicated: he gave her one pass, she took three (or more) after agreeing not to do that. They don't actually need to get better at talking to each other; negotiation only works if both parties will actually abide by what they agree to. She's demonstrated that she doesn't.
19
Odd double post, because I thought the first one disappeared into the ether. Oh well.
20
@Eudaemonic, so sneaking a second brownie when you had permission to take one brownie is "pretty much exactly the same kind of betrayal" as cutting a piece out of a pristine wedding cake without asking first?

Also, I'm still curious about the shift from the LW's "she got drunk and told me" to your version: "letting something slip when drunk".
21
EricaP, sneaking a second (and third) brownie after agreeing to have only one is exactly the same as sneaking a brownie when you hadn't been offered any and had agreed not to take any. You took a brownie that wasn't yours, and which you'd agreed not to take.

A CPOS is someone who sleeps with someone else after agreeing not to. She did that, so she's a CPOS.

If you consent to sex with a condom, and your partner doesn't use a condom, he doesn't get to say "But she'd have consented if I was doing a different thing in a different circumstance!"

If he won't even admit it happened without being drunk, that does not weight in his favor. Certainly, nobody gets to say "The fact that he wouldn't admit it while sober means that she's a bad negotiator and therefore somehow deserved to have her consent violated."

"I'm still curious about the shift..." I agree that it was not any more accurate than your interpretation, except that I didn't try to claim that it turned cheating into non-cheating.

What, in your opinion, is the difference between an ethical nonmonogamist and a CPOS?
22
Eudaemonic: Oh, she's clearly a cheater. I'd call her a cheating piece of shit if she continued the cheating for years while lying about it and gaslighting her partner. Not all cheaters are shit.

I'm not saying she's ethical; I'm saying that I chose to stay married in a similar circumstance. I have reason to know that one can rebuild trust after infidelity, and shared kinks are a good reason to try to do so.
23
Oh, okay. That makes more sense. And while she continued it for (more than) two weeks while lying about it, you're right that there's a qualitative difference between a couple weeks and a couple years.
24
@16: The wording from the letter - "Then two weeks later, she got drunk and told me she had seen the OKCupid guy again without asking." -- does not contain anything specific about him being a difficult person. As far at that goes, you don't suppose that just maybe negotiating the boundaries around non-monogamy might be just a little bit fraught? Especially when one party has been abused concerning that topic?

And maybe, just maybe she KNEW that she had broken their agreements -- which is in itself fraught, even if presented to the mildest, most accepting partner in the world. Why do you have to presume that he is the asshole in the relationship, when it is more than sufficient to notice that what she did was itself an obvious asshole maneuver, which itself should be obviously sufficient to make her nervous about spilling the news of her breaking faith?
25
@24: "Especially when one party has been abused concerning that topic?"

By two consecutive partners.
26
@24, she's an asshole, yes.

I'm sorry for suggesting he was an asshole, but my experience (as the person lied to) is that I was also contributing to the situation which led to the lie. I speak from my experience, that there is usually some responsibility on both sides, and being lied to is not evidence that one isn't also part of the problem. I was part of the problem, even though I was being lied to.

I speak about this because I think it's not obvious. No, I wasn't mostly to blame, but I was partly to blame. Relationships between flawed humans are difficult, and having some empathy for the other person can help.
27
People need to figure out if it more important to them to be right or happy. She was wrong, yes, and he can take pleasure in dumping her if that suits him. But if he'd rather work through the issues in hopes of building a positive cuckold-friendly relationship with her, then he has to find a way not to see her as a Complete Bitch.
28
Dan, it is total manufactured nonsense of new-gen non-monogamists that "open relationships" and "polyamory" are necessarily distinctly different. Those of us who were engaging in ethical non-monogamy back in the 60s and 70s had only the term "open relationship". To most over 50 poly folk I know, the term did not then - and does not now mean that sex is permitted outside the dyad but love is not. Please be aware that MANY OF US still use the term "open relationship" to mean that we are open to multiple sexual, LOVING relationships....relationships that can and do take on a variety of forms and expressions. I consider myself to be in open relationships......they all include love and an intention of sustainability, and I wouldn't be in them if they didn't!!!!

As a 59 year old woman who has been openly non-monogamous my entire adult life, and who has spent the last decade as a visible poly activist and education, I need to ask you to please help us by not proliferating the flawed distinction that open relationships and polyamorous relationships are decidedly different. There are numerous self-identified polyamorous people who prohibit emotional non-monogamy. There are numerous people who identify as being in open relationships that ONLY want multiple relationships that include love and the intention to sustain those relationships for the long term.

For many poly/open folks these words are acceptably interchangeable. The only people that seem to want to make them mean different things, are the people that are so insecure about their own relationship style, that they need to create an "us vs them" distinction. "Oh no, we're not like those 'open relationship' people. We believe that love shared is love multipled!" "Oh no, we're not like those polyamorous people. We believe that romantic love should be exclusive!" The ethical non-monogamy world is simply not that black and white.
29
I think the gf should be given a little more slack. This is her first experience in an open relationship, and it sounds like he has set the guidelines; maybe they don't necessarily work for her and what she needs from an open relationship and they need to renegotiate the guidelines. Not everyone can do emotionless sex/ one-night stands. Sex is an intimate activity and that can complicate things, obviously. Perhaps she felt guilty for using the other guy, or that she owed him something. It doesn't say that she slept with him again, just that she saw him.

Their arrangement also seems very unbalanced to me. What does she get out of him sleeping with other people? Does she share his cuckolding fantasy? Plus, it seems like sleeping with an ex is completely different that sleeping with a stranger from OKCupid, and I wondering if the gf is honestly going to be privy to every communication in that situation.
30
Just pre open relationship hiccup.
31
@10: "I am sympathetic to her. The reason it's hard to find women interested in cuckold games is that many women find it hard to have fun, intimate sex with another person, while knowing that they're expected to transform that intimate moment into a dirty story for their husband."

Sure it's selfish, but it's terms both parties agree to. If monogamy isn't working out for you, don't structure the alternative to be just as failure-prone and dishonest. I'm not completely unsympathetic, but it's an opportunity for communication squandered. If you know you're not going to do it well, don't bother continuing with any similar plan to "save" something you don't want.
32
@31, it's the kind of thing you don't know till you try. I was game to have NSA sex, until I discovered that I hated it.

Yes, she should have explicitly renegotiated rather than cheating, but her actions fall within normal flawed human mistakes and don't make her an automatic MF who must be dumped immediately.
33
@33: They're not married, they have no kids, there's no reason for them to necessarily butt their heads at her wanting to sleep with whomever she wants to on her own terms. They attempted his fantasy, it wasn't for her. He can give her another chance, but nobody should stay in position of mutual misery. They can both find what they're looking for better in another partner. Sometimes a relationship just needs to end and free all.
34
Both parties have to want to work at it. If one or both are halfassing it, it'll lead to much more hurt and unhealth than is already present in this scenario. Nobody deserves to he trapped with someone who may be lovely, but isn't for you. It isn't DTMFA so much as dump the cool person who just doesn't make you feel right.
35
EricaP, like UAR, I'd agree more if they'd been married for years, or had kids, or anything else like that. They tried dating for several months, it turned out she's not the kind of person he wants, they should keep going--in different directions.

Normal flawed humans get dumped all the time; that's normal too.
36
Erica - I agree that you can't make it hard to be honest with you (pitch a fit anytime you hear something you don't like, have no forgiveness, or abuse somebody over their mistakes forever) and then expect honesty. So yes, sometimes you can *contribute* to an atmosphere of poor communication that may include dishonesty. But let's not assume that with no evidence besides her drunkeness - which could mean she's a coward, she let it slip accidentally, or imply that he's difficult. My personal experience is the opposite. I offer clear and calm communication and a lot of forgiveness but my ex-partner chose to lie about his indiscretions repeatedly anyway. For him, his immediate pleasure was more important than respecting me or having integrity. He's likely a sex addict though - he's slept with 3 different close friend's girlfriends or lovers and routinely lets his indiscretions fuck with his life. Just pointing out that lying doesn't mean a person doesn't have the opportunity to tell the truth. It can also mean they're a POS - cheating and otherwise.

I don't get how it's difficult to find women who like cuckholding. It's the best thing ever. I get to fuck other men and you not only aren't weird about it but we get to use it to fuel our sex life? It was my favorite kink of any man's so far. I get how some women may not be into it because they may feel controlled by their partner but I think that's about the relationship. A good relationship makes it seem like you'd enjoy sharing sexy things with your partner.
37
I'm not saying they must stay together. But CUCK wrote:

>> Are we going through the normal trip-ups of a newly open relationship? Or are these lies an indication that she can't be trusted? >>

I've seen relationships move from monogamous to non-monogamous, and most have some speed-bumps or "trip-ups" along the way. Some people have smooth sailing, but it's hardly uncommon to have some issues along the way.

If he wants to leave, he should leave. (And if she wants to leave, she should leave.) But if he wants to stay with her, and is just scared that she has revealed that she is an Evil Person, I'm one voice to say that the situation as described so far doesn't suggest she's an Evil Person. She may not be right for CUCK, but if he likes her, and she likes him, then there's no harm in giving it a few more months to see if they can find an approach to non-monogamy that suits both of them.
38
secretagent @36, not all men are happy to have their sex life reported to their partner's primary partner. If it's hard for her to find people she's sexually compatible with, and then if the few that she wants aren't happy with the cuckolding side of things, then the cuckolding isn't any kind of benefit for her.
39
@37: He also said "I wasn't blameless-I stayed with her long after I realized it wasn't working"

If you can't see past "MAKE IT WORK AT ALL COSTS" for his own sanity and self-development he needs to learn to cut losses and how to move on. All else is pathological.
40
If "he" can't, I meant.
41
@36: "I don't get how it's difficult to find women who like cuckholding."

Shallower base to date from? I'm sure it's hard to find a great many women who like cuckolding who can do it with patience, honesty, and within the bounds of the man's requirements and your limits. But I say that as sometimes hard to find ideal vanilla relationships, the more you get specific the more you have to deal with that shallower pool of possibilities. Many people just don't communicate well period.
42
@39, yes, I agree that since he has a problem ending dysfunctional relationships, he should take that into consideration when evaluating if he's doing that again.