Savage Love Letter of the Day: The Drama Club


i have never wanted to slap a letter writer as hard as I want to slap OAB right now. right upside the head. kids!
LW I agree wholeheartedly with Dan. You and your ex need to break up and stay broken up. At best she's an unreliable, selfish, immature person, at worst she's manipulative and abusive. Either way being 'friends' isn't a good idea for either of you.

But Dan had a point that you ex did a lot of shitty things, but dating someone else when the relationship ended was not one of them. Stop paying rent, take or sell the furniture then let it go.

This is why I dislike the belief that you MUST be friends with your ex's or else you a horrible, broken person. Sometimes a person doesn't have to be abusive to be a poison in your life.
TL;DR. Since Mr Savage is nice and I'm not, can you two please break the fuck up? If your name is on lease, kick these fucks out and move back in or sublet.

I didn't bother reading the rest of the depressing novel. Just Break the fuck up.
Yeah, I can usually read even the longer ones, but I didn't make it all the way through this one. Just break up, let it go.
There are not enough details in the letter to understand what is going on here. LW, do you mind writing a longer one to provide more information?
This entire relationship was TL/DR.

And LOL @5.
What, I got way confused about the plants. Are they ok or not. The plants shouldn't be left to die.
LW. Have a long break from this woman. Will you cope without all the ins and outs, that is really the problem here. Drama at that age can be such a turn on.
I require entirely too much silence to have endured this opera. Jesus Christ, how is 'alone' worse than this passive-aggressive clusterfuck?
Dude, what is so great about this woman? Does she have perfect tits or suck like a hoover? In your entire, ass-long, never-ending letter there isn't a single thing in there on why you're together. The only thing I can figure out is that your ego is so fragile, you get off by those "spiritually connected" and "we MUST be together." In which case you deserve everything you've gotten.
This is why I could never be a therapist. I'd chew my own arm off at the elbow before I could listen to someone going on and on and on about this kind of crap. At least I can "TL DR" when it's put in writing.
You moved out because being in the house is too fraught with emotion, but she has to stay in the house and leave everything exactly in it's place as though you were still there? Why are you allowed to change your surroundings to have distance from the relationship but she is not allowed to change her surroundings to make herself more comfortable?

You two are absolutely not capable of having a functional relationship at this point, as friends or partners. Maybe that will change in the future, but as of now, cut her off, move on, and do your best to stop policing her every post-break up move. She hurt you in the relationship and you can be upset about all of that, but you can't continue being upset about every little thing she does after it's over or you'll make yourself absolutely insane.
Grrr, its* place. Stupid apostrophe, gtfo.
Damn, that is one unnecessarily long letter. It's okay to end bad relationships. It's not a failure if it's better for you. Just break up. Stop dithering.

Honestly if you ever write a letter to an advice columnist about your relationship and it requires more than a paragraph to ask your question, your shit is fucked and you're done. You answered your own question about a fifth of the way into your own sordid story, dude.
LavaGirl @7

I know, right?!!
@16 was about the plants, by the way. OMG, they're now "literally a room away." Oh the humanity. (Though perhaps he means they are figuratively a room away, since literally now means figuratively:…)
Mr. P suggests the plants are perhaps "recreational" in nature -- hence their importance to the story.
Dan - whatever happened to editing for clarity and length? Or have you decided to let letter writers go all telenovela on us?
They both seemed pretty shitty in the letter, but when I got to the part where he was sooooooo petty about fucking a dude after they had broken up and he moved out, I began to think he was an unreliable narrator. Fortunately, by the end I had completely ceased caring about either of them. This letter was a real journey.
I get the feeling the LW is a woman. I've never met a straight guy who'd put up with this shit.
@2 Yes. This. I never understood the emphasis that's placed on remaining friends with an ex at all costs. Sometimes, you date someone for a while and find out that you're just not compatible as people. It's okay to learn from that sort of relationship and move on without being friends. You can have an amicable break-up, be cordial when you do see each other, and fairly and responsibly handle shared custody of pets/kids/houseplants. But there's no reason to meet for coffee dates or chat on the phone if you were truly toxic together. Spend that energy cultivating friends who are a positive force in your life.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to remain friends. I'm friends with some of my exes. But there were other relationships where it was just better to cut those ties and walk away, and I don't see it as a failure.
Can someone please moderate gandhi the fuck out of here? Is Philo trolling or for real?
You know, they make very effective anti-psychotic meds these days. Just something to think about.
@28: Ha! Hahahaha. Ha. My guess is your early 20s was a long time ago, but this is fairly typical behaviour, gender aside.
@28: Nah, it's normal for people in their early 20s to be incredibly stupid. Personally, if I was this guy's therapist, I think I'd have died from headdesk-induced brain trauma around the time he said "So naturally I had to call her..."

I move that it become a rule that when someone uses a suicide-threat to control someone else, the recipient of the threat should be obliged to call the threatener a coward and dare them to do it.
@ 45 - Motion seconded.
I'm thinking the LW is a woman also. Either that, or he's one hell of an emo guy.
@43. Bahahahah!

@45, Man yes. my ex used to do that all the time. Sadly, in our twenties, we could have given the LW and his ex GF a run for their money on stupid drama inducing b.s. My first step for getting healthy was saying, "I'll miss you when you are gone." Of course he didn't kill himself. LOL.

LW, get away from her, forget about the furniture, save the plants, and get thee into counseling.
I predict our new rule will, even if implemented universally, cause approximately zero suicides.
Which is almost a pity.

@47: I've seen guys like this. Young, stupid, and in love--both with the other person, and with the idea of being the Good Guy. And with no idea of what the last part even means.

Lauding traditional heterosexual relationships on Dan's board? No way.
And apparently speaking Odd Capitalization at Random Times.
Okay, why Did you capitalize "poly" And "traditional heterosexual relationships?"
That seems Pretty random, particularly If you don't mean The traditions where a man marries one or More women and gives their fathers Some goats.
Dan usually edits these letters down. This one seems more complete, if only because the hits keep on coming.

Anyways, Dramatic Manipulators are a dime a dozen. She won't be the first in your life. Toughen up, or perish.
How am I to formulate an opinion without knowing the gender of the plants? And what about cis/trans? Jesus, you don't even give us their names!
@45 that's not cool dude. That's happened to me... maybe 3 or 4 different partners on tens of occasions. It's incredibly stressful. I finally "learned" and when that happens, I immediately call the best friend and say that [whomever] needs to be monitored and taken care of for a time. Manipulative types hate it when their shit leaks out and other people know who they are [side note: if anyone's a Big Brother fan, watch Vanessa work it over and over]. If they're actually suicidal, it's not a bad move either.
@ 54 - Philo doesn't seem to realize that "traditional heterosexual relationships" actually are poly (as in polygynous).

But hey, s/he speaks the Truth!

@57, she's like that as a poker player, too.

One Christmas season, when the psychopath in my family was AGAIN threatening suicide because she wasn't getting enough attention, I called an ambulance on her. You know what?: She never pulled that shit again (with me anyway).
You're wrong. People who like poly relationships are not insane. People who like different things from you, are not insane. Believe it or not, some people would feel tortured to be walking in your shoes, living the life that you like. Just as you would apparently feel tortured in a poly relationship. Because people like different things. The answer to this dilemma is Don't agree to a poly relationship if you don't want a poly relationship. (instead of act the control freak evangelist, like only your favorite relationship style is healthy or socially acceptable) Also applies to this letter; Dan was wrong too, the gf didn't unilaterally open the relationship, he reluctantly agreed.

They could use some consent education, if they don't understand the dangers of reluctant consent, giving or taking it.

I thought that most people were too hard on him. He's not handling the break up with perfect maturity, but compared to his gf hiding her head in the sand & her sporadic abusive outbursts, and the way a lot of people flip from loving to hating their partner at break up time, I think he's doing ok.

They both seem like they need work exploring and communicating their needs and boundaries. I think he broke up with her because he needed more time and affection from her. Maybe he even needed monogamy. But I'm guessing, because he doesn't actually come out and say that anything crossed his boundaries besides her 5x sexing New Guy. And instead of attempting a compromise about it, (put New Guy on hold or tone it down) they tried a break in the primary relationship instead. Ignoring a problem doesn't usually fix it. Discussing it without sniping at each other, or expecting a partner to read your mind, has a decent chance of working, though.

It can pop an inflated ego, when your partner builds a successful new romance. It definitely destroys any "perfect match" romantic ideals. However it's a strength to be able to build a happy relationship. So I'd encourage him to precisely articulate exactly what made him mad and uncomfortable. (Suicidally dependent on another is a huge weakness, though, so he may be best served cutting his losses since that threat happened)
Man those roommates suck. Mind your own beeswax.
Your understanding of American history is horrifying. Traditional heterosexual marriage saw women as the property of men. And what reading of the history of this country leads you to think that "social chaos" sprung up in the 1960s and was never there before? And didn't protestants burn witches and use biblical justifications to rationalize slavery? The good old days were only good for wealthy white men. The "resulting breakdown of civilization" is something invented by self righteous homophobes such as yourself to justify their bigotry. If you want to see a great example of something actually breaking down (and quickly) I think a great example would be the logic you use to justify your opinions.
@57: Like Sandiai says, calling 911 is also appropriate. It'll get get them either the help, or the lesson, that they need.

@62: If any of that Was true, you'd expect our Slide into chaos to Have happened at some point And for crime and social dysfunction not to Be at an all-Time low like they are Right now.

@60 "People who like different things from you, are not insane."

Funny, hearing this from you.
@9, maybe she just is "the most beautiful girl [LW[ ever dated" ;)

But seriously, this is some Pretty Little Hippie-level bullshit. Just dump her and bang your ex roommate, for the love of God!
@67: "By any and all measures this civilization is in decline."

Name three.
Such a shame. Such great potential, such useless drama...

...this comment thread, of course.
I think Philo is SeattleBlues' new handle. He's starting soft and gentle, but let's see how quickly it degenerates into contradiction, mental chaos and hateful bile. And lies about properties in Italy (though maybe this time it'll be Spain or France).
Debt: Unrelated to marriage, other Than making it less likely. You do know What marriage is, right?

Rate of participation In workforce: The same. Fewer people working Means fewer people can afford to marry, but The causality only flows in one direction

Out-of-wed birthrate: How is that decline? It's increasing. ;)
If you want the out-of-wedlock (that's the correct spelling, by the way; I was hoping you would cite the declining quality of internet redneck morons; I'd have had to give you that one) births as a metric indicating decline, you'll need to explain why out-of-wedlock births should be taken as a metric of societal decline.

Can you actually name one measurement by which Traditional Heterosexual Marriage actually kept society from declining? Or even could conceivably be making our society decline by its absence?
"Dan Savage said we should get back together"
It called me "Ritardo". The period troll used to do that (and think itself so clever for coming up with it). Could this be its return?

This is going to be so much fun.
@76: It onLy teasEs you beCause it loVes yOu.

But at least it's started using punctuation again. I guess that's something?
@ 77 - " It onLy teasEs you beCause it loVes yOu"

I should hope not!!!
@78: Thanks for telling us about your rich fantasy life, which I suspect features Ricardo more than he's entirely comfortable with. Telling us your whackadoodle beliefs is not the same as offering evidence for them, though. Most of us seem not to share your superstitions about federal debt and therefore don't see a recitation of same as persuasive.

For homework, meditate on what it means to owe debt measured in dollars while owning a printing press that prints dollars. Then, try to find some way for your fantasies about the Debtpocalypse Fairy to be in some way connected to your fantasies about Very Non-Traditional Heterosexual Marriage (since you don't seem to understand that 20th century marriage wasn't much like 19th-century marriage, which wasn't much like 18th-century marriage, and so on back for all eternity).

I feel like there's fanfiction gold to be mined here.
Although annoying at first, I'm starting to see the humor in sharing my handle with someone so disagreeable.

Welcome to the Church of Philo
The Home of the Real Truth
The One Right Way
The Path to Happiness
The Safety from Apocalyptic Disaster (and National Debt)
**Please do not look behind the curtain at the multitudes of happy people doing things differently. They don't exist. They never existed. They're sick in the head and liars to boot.

The kind of control freak who creates their own cult/religion like this is so creepy it's almost more funny than scary.

Ginnie - Funny, hearing this from you.
I dislike speaking to you. And I don't agree with much of what you say. It's cool if you don't like me or agree with my ideas, but I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by posting to me. If you need to be a pest about this, you'll be a pest, repetition can get so boring but cest la vie.
When did Ginnie and RealPhilo get the bad blood going? Is there some secret thread going on you all keeping me out of? Or just another example of my fading memory.
LW, seriously.. Life is too damn short. It is. I wasted my time on some relationships with men I can't now even recall their names. Shit, more proof the lights in my brain are going dim.
You guys had some fun, only got some bedroom dresser together.. No poor kid who has to navigate life with crazy parents- wish this girl and her nocturnal friend well, close down your involvement in the house you're renting,
and finish all communication.
She is doing your head in.
This is why people don't travel back in time. If future you saw what an idiot you are being, he would kick your present butt. If I had time for this I'd teach junior high. done.
It's crazy to me that people write letters like this, and there's a wall of text full of every egregious thing imaginable, and then at some point, it says, "the nail in the coffin..." because all the other stuff was not such a big deal, but this last thing is the worst. I will stand for mountains of abuse, but not this.
As the one who wrote this letter I guess I forgot to mention that we DID officially break up after about two weeks.
@85: Good! Stay out of it and away from her. This is the important part: Do not attempt to be friends with her for at least two years. Try to avoid interacting with her in any way for that long as well.

The good rule of thumb seems to be "Half the length of the relationship."

And greet any future suicide threats with a hangup and a 911 call immediately, because you never really know--there's a chance she might not be lying.
@ 85 - I seriously hope this is the only thing you forgot to mention.

Now, as everyone else said, stay away from her.
Jesus. Another LW coming on the thread.
Suri89, take some time away from this woman, so you can clear your head.
From a distance, all these manipulations show themselves, you get some internal strength and can just say no.
Maybe in time, you two could have some sort of friendship. Though, why would you want to? She didn't take care of you or the relationship, for some reason you just kept rolling over. I'd go do some therapy on yourself before you hook up again with another partner.
You let her abuse you.
Also, sorry for the extreme length of the letter. I should have edited it down. Didn't think it would matter. I wanted to include enough detail to be thorough and trying to fit that much detail into one letter makes us both sound a lot more insane than we actually are.

Few points:

1. We did break up shortly after going on a break.
2. I don't think my roommates were trying to stir up shit. They simply didn't like the fact that she was bringing over the same guy who turned their lives into drama as well. I've also been friends with my roommate for 10+ years. He wasn't trying to create more drama, but felt he owed to me as a friend to let me know I was still being lied to.
3. I don't care who she fucks or that she fucks someone. The reason I felt I couldn't trust her was because she kept lying and also lying to my roommates.
4. I'm by no means "emo" or even an emotional person. This situation created a lot of conflicting emotions that likely led to bad decisions and excessive drama, and that is why I ask for advice, being full aware of how emotions can distort one's clear perception.

I appreciate the brutal honesty of Dan's response and all the comments. If people were this brutally honest with me during the situation I likely could have saved a good deal of drama from the beginning.
@89.... you shouldn't be so quick to leave her... give her another chance.... its clear to me that she only does all of those things because she loves you. Why are you not accepting that love? That is the real question....
i just couldnt stand it that all the comments (minus phucktard) were all in agreement.... it just felt weird....
@90 I hope that's sarcasm. I never wanted her back and the question was never to stay together or take her back. I just wanted to know what the right way to proceed was and if all the emotional drama was screwing with my decision making (which mostly everyone here is very adamant in saying that yes, it did)
@90 If you're not being sarcastic, then what do you mean? That she was trying her best to be considerate and mature post-breakup the whole time and I was projecting selfishness/rudeness onto her?
apologies Suri89. Yes... i was being a sarcastic contrarian....

I had some high drama relationships in my 20s too... so i can empathize... especially with how hard it is to see the situation clearly until after.... at which point... we say to ourselves "wtf did i just do to myself....". lol. Sorry for the sarcasm.
@94 I thought so. Our relationship never used to be high drama until recently. It was likely due to a very stressful year as well as the two of us simply growing apart. 2 months of no water, 1.5 months no heat, car accidents, and a fire that could have resulted in something far more serious than it did. Prior to all this things were low drama. We rarely fought or had any major issues. I felt she was inconsiderate at times and sort of needed to seek validation from males, but I dealt with it as my own insecurities (but I was also probably a bit of a doormat). It can be difficult to clearly perceive situations when emotions interfere, which I why I greatly value the advice of others. Thank you for your perspective.
Mr Savage is learning, even if he hasn't yet begun calling for a Covenant Marriage. I feel so proud - just like Graham telling Patty, "Honey! You used "hooch"... in a sentence!"
@ Ricardo 72 - Hey there! I agree that Philo could be SeattleBlues - stylistic and thematic similarities.
EuDaeMonic - thanks for your Attention to Detail
Suri89 - I'm glad you're out of the middle of that mess - if for no other reason than you are writing more coherently and succinctly.
Here's your chance to learn two, important life skills.

One can end a relationship that has gone on too long.

One can end a letter that has gone on too long.
Philo is obviously the "Danny troll". Note the use of "we" instead of "I" in comment 74. (Is the "period troll" the same one as the "Danny troll", BTW?)
Suri89, I'm inclined to cut you some slack, even though I am giving the same basic advice Dad did. From here it looks to me like she was running rings around you with her bullshit about your deep spiritual connection and how wonderful life would be for you two if only you could just evolve enough to accept her philandering and using you. What you are guilty of is putting up with a whole lot more bullshit than you ever should have said "yes to (more like, "well, okay, I guess so" to). Dan seems to say you were being an asshole for keeping your stuff there when you should have moved it out. It's pretty clear to me that you were operating under the assumption that things were eventually going to get better and resume, and all that while she was fucking with your head. I would say your biggest failing was in buying her bullshit about how perfect you two would be together, when you should have kicked her to teh curb and stopped taking her texts. She is a hot mess, and you would have been smarter, healthier, and left fewer openings for being blamed after the fact if you had been a little less forgiving right from the get-go.
Avast just outed himself. He's DJ!
Who is DJ?

Or is this leading up to an "I'm Spartacus!" situation?
"...I am giving you the same basic advice Dad did."
DJ is Dan's son. (Obviously I'm joking, it's just a typo)