Comments

102
@95...is this your first and only affair ever? Did you really strike gold on the first shot and found the 1-in-a-million person on AM who had the exact same story as you? Or did it take multiple tries to find the right one?

Another element about this whole AM affair that I dispute is that it's discreet. You put a public profile with pictures on a cheating web site, and you communicate with potential partners who you know nothing about. Some of them could be people who know you and your spouse outside of AM; you don't know how discreet they are. In short...all of these people now know things about your husband that he himself does not know. That, as I've said, is not a position I'd ever want to be put in by the person who is closest to me in the world.
103
I was in an open marriage for many years. It was an emotionally abusive marriage, which then became sexually abusive, but it was open by agreement long before that. My husband used a misunderstanding about boundaries as an excuse to publicly shame me on social media, and then proceeded to beat the shit out of me, threaten me, and choke me. I felt so ashamed that I couldn't even conceive of calling the police or asking for help.

But I had been out about being in an open marriage, and frankly, despite everything, 80% of the time we were very happy together, so that's what all my friends saw. So when he turned around trying to shame me, many of my friends went directly to me, asking if I was ok. Offering to help me. They were my angels, because instead of shame, they offered support. And they saved my life. I'm free, and so much happier. Yet there were plenty of others who basically treated me like I deserved to be shamed. Like I was a filthy slut who deserved what I got. Because we have such a twisted standard, he was the victim, even though he tried to choke me to death. Even though he raped me.

No, I never used Ashley Madison. But seeing the crowd become so vicious, turning so quickly on the filthy "cheaters" and laughing that they're getting what they deserve... It breaks my heart a little. I know what that shame feels like. How many partners at this very moment are feeling what I felt? How many have now been beaten or raped or ostracized because it's what "they deserve"?
104
Mr Finch, in clarification - Or, let's say that my ideal (obviously not possible to achieve, but something that could be approached a great deal nearer) would be to have everyone undergoing the experience be as pleased with the divorced state as Anne of Cleves.
105
Not a single platonic kiss in 15 years? Won't even sleep in the same bed? Writer #2 describes a relationship not simply devoid of sex, but devoid of any kind of warmth of affection. Then she goes on to vaguely explain that "he provides her a good life in every other way."

Let's decode that. If there's no affection of any kind, those "other ways" aren't going to be friendship (because even platonic friendship has affection). If he's watching 40 hours of porn a week, he's not stimulating her intellectually because he's spending his time at home locked behind a door. So what else could those "other ways" be? Monetary ones. He provides her with a home, clothes, status. She describes herself as a "caretaker."

If you're miserable, you owe it to yourself to leave. If you want to be with someone else, you owe it to your partner to leave before you do anything. She will not leave him "of her own choice." If your vows are so sacred, why do you get a pass on breaking them? Proclaiming your loyalty so strongly doesn't make you sympathetic, it makes you a hypocrite.

Should we sympathize with a person that allows herself to suffer a loveless marriage of servitude to secure material comforts? Is that really noble? She wants to eat her cake and have it too.
106
@90. Like the new def on cheating by deprivation.

@92. We can't use the word "bl@ck" anymore? Oy!
107
@89. Should give you credit for cheating def too.

@95/LW2. Good for you for finding the "least worst" (as Dan says) way of dealing with a bad situation. Ignore the haters and live your life.
108
Ms Cynara - I've seen the express "b**** sheep" called racist; as "b****-balled" carries a clearly negative connotation, I'd not want to take the risk.
109
Who knew this was so hard on straight people. I did realize the mental loop-de-loops they had to navigate to explain the simple urge for some strange. I will endeavor to not mock them and observe this with more compassion.
110
That should have been "didn't". Alas...
111
@109 I wonder if some of the problem springs from the myth that variety is only appealing to men. Maybe that belief leads to a desire to protect each other from the reality that it's a normal desire for humans in general.
112
@95: So much dishonesty. "Society condemns any committed relationship that is not monogamous", or blaming "organized religion" for the idea that his consent should be asked. The issue is that he should have the option of giving consent or not, but you spend your time talking bafflegab and red herrings like this. "will not allow me to dump him" but that was never the question, the question was "would he want to dump you" if he was asked for his consent.

Yes, you are hurting him. He should have the option of deciding whether you are, in fact, his best option for a caregiver, despite your self-interested claims that you are so good for him. But you don't intend to let him have that choice, because he might decide on a situation that's best for him, not the situation that's best for you.
113
some people overestimate their importance Old Crow. You make a valid point... that he may not view her "altruism" the same way she does...and the only way to find out is to ask... BUT... you can't un-ask either... so i can empathize with the dilemma.

I'm sure you have known people who would literally prefer not to know. Whose answer to that question would be "why did you have to ask me that? I don't want to know..."
114
@113 CotB - How about saying something like this: "If there's one thing I've learned from this crazy Ashley Madison hack, it's that a lot of people are seeking extramarital affairs. I want you to know that if *you* ever choose to pursue outside partners, I would prefer [to know first/not to know/to go to marriage counseling first/to discuss opening up the marriage/fill in the blank with your own preference]. How about *you*?"

(CotB - I accidentally posted this on a different thread first. Sorry for the duplication. Please ignore the other post. Had both windows open.)
115
@futurecatlady - could be. Or just the old time "I love you therefore I own you." I can understand a conversation along the lines of "Hey, if you are going to step out, let me know what's up." But suicide and divorce seems completely over the top.
116
FCL 114 - that sounds like a non-threatening and healthy way to go about it...but... depending on the "answer" the recipient gives... they may also immediately get suspicious of the asker...
117
not to be a spammer... (i just posted this on the main SL too)

http://aeon.co/magazine/philosophy/is-it…

118
@115 We're in agreement that those renegotiation conversations should happen. Sometimes renegotiation is unsuccessful and leads to divorce as the parties find themselves wanting different things, and sometimes the discovery of long-term secret affairs leads to divorce. I think suicide is a significantly less common consequence and was mentioned here in relation to public outing. Don't know if the suspected suicides were AM users or their spouses, but the implication is that public humiliation was a factor.
119
@117 CotB - Interesting article. I'm definitely the "wants information" type. And even sharing that preference with our partners may not be enough if they are otherwise motivated to hide the information. That was my experience.

@116 CotB - Obviously, it's not a perfect solution, but there is not perfect solution. This suggestion at least provides an opportunity for both partners to state their preferences if they are willing to do so.
120
@117...the "it's better not to know" paradigm never really works. People actually need to know. You can rationalize it all you want, but in the end, given the chose, people want to see what's behind the door.
121
120 edit: *choice
122
@120 Timothy - One poster here has already said it would be his personal preference not to know because the feeling of rejection from that conversation would feel worse to him than the pain of discovering his partner's infidelity, if it should come to light. He can't be the only person who feels that way. If people feel that way, they should be able to express that preference. I don't think they should project that preference onto their partners, but it is a valid choice for someone to make for themselves.

123
Late to the party but... yes, thank you, Dan, for allowing some of us on the 'Scarlet Letter' side of things to have a voice, and thank you for your compassion among all the judgmental people gleefully exalting in the downfall of their fellow humans. Thank you, LavaGirl, AFinch, funtimevash, and all the others for showing some understanding that everything is not black & white and divorce is not always the obvious answer. Sometimes there are mutually agreed-upon open arrangements, like my own. Sometimes there are marriages that are 99% fine but lacking in that 1% of sex/intimacy. Sometimes there are people with spouses who are disabled, abusive, or just not interested, and it's not always possible, for a variety of reasons to just 'get out.' And LW2, THANK YOU for having the courage to come out and write the letter to Dan I've been composing in my mind for a week, speaking about your experiences, on behalf of us 'regular folk.' I have met so many women with similar stories! Let's hope this vicious, vindictive feeding frenzy runs its course soon and fades into the background....
124

I am a woman who used AM for years. I was not looking for a hookup, I was looking for a long distance friend who was open to talk about sex. I want to express my whole self (including my sexual side) somewhere safe and found what I needed through AM.
I had several very satisfying correspondences through the years to brighten my day in an unthreatening way. One which developed a deep lasting friendship that eventually included both our spouses (they don't know where we met).
Yes my email was hacked. It appears my name was not but even if it does, at 68 I am not so concerned what other people think. This is my life,not a dress rehearsal. At my age I know that living your life is more important than worrying what other people think of you.
125
I have mixed feelings about the Ashley Madison leak.

I signed up for a AM account in 2012 (with a throwaway email addy) when I suspected my husband of 23 years of having an affair and decided to see if he was on the site. He wasn't on AM, but he was having an affair with a coworker - something that I discovered later on by accident when he left his email open on day. Yes, I snooped because I was, after all, suspicious. All of this happened after asking him point blank whether he was having an affair and/or unhappy because something was just off in our relationship and had been for some time.

The funny thing is that when I found evidence of the affair, I was looking for an "out" in our marriage because I was pretty unhappy. Yet, when I confronted my husband with the evidence and we actually hashed out our relationship about so many things un/said/misunderstood over the years, neither of us really wanted out of our marriage. I even asked him point blank if he wanted out so he could pursue a relationship with x - I would have let him go with no drama, but he said no. I NEVER expected this to happen.

This discovery and the subsequent year were really hard and I'll be honest, I was hurt and humiliated. We have spent the last 3 years reconnecting. We're open and communicative with each other, we're having the best sex of our lives (thanks Dan - your podcast has opened up so much discussion and ahem experimentation in our marriage), and I think that finding out about the affair saved our relationship.

Back to AM - I could have been outed if I had used my real email address. The other thing that I realized after making an account is that there are a lot of really lonely and unhappy marriages out there. I received so many messages, winks, and yes even dick pics from men all over the world without even having any photograph or other info about myself on the site other than age and gender. In the end, I deleted my account (or thought I did) after not finding my husband's profile and didn't think much of it until the leak surfaced.

I feel sorry for the spouses who are finding out that their husband/wife might have had an affair, and at the same time, it could be an amazing opportunity for people to reconnect. It's not easy, but with an open mind it can be done. I know some relationships are not meant to last...but both of us were humble enough to give it a go again.

BTW, I love Esther Perel's Ted Talk! So true - my husband and I have had two marriages - before the affair and after the affair. The latter is really the one I've wanted all along.

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