So, one thing I have been very curious about over the last few days is what, if any, verification has been done by the authors of all these media interviews to see that the AM users they are talking to are real. Like, have reporters been asking for proof of ID or email and then checking against the database? I understand that Savage and other advice providers are always facing the danger of being catfished and must to a large extent rely on their own bullshit-o-meters, but I'm a lot less willing to cut the BBC and other actual news providers the same kind of slack. Right now I'm tending to put a lot of what I'm seeing in the news from AM users in the "cool story, bro" files. (not saying that is the case with this woman, to be clear)

I verified her.

It would be really nice if this whole AM thing had a real and lasting effect on people's attitudes about monogamy and marriage and made them less judgmental.

It would be really nice, but I wouldn't bet on it happening.

Now you can sleep easy knowing sucking his cock is actually enriching his marriage! That must be one magic dick.

Nice avatar you dick.

That's to you, asshole @ 4.

@1 I was not on Ashley Madison. I would think, however, that individuals who were involved and don't want to draw attention to themselves would be more likely to share confidential information with a reporter from an established new organizations than with an advice columnist. No offense to Dan, but there is a solid tradition (and legal precedent) of journalists maintaining the confidentiality of their sources. Also, I am not sure what a judge would say if Dan tried to invoke confidentiality of sources--but I suspect that it would not work because Dan would not fit the definition of a journalist.

@7, really? You do know that Dan is part owner of the Stranger, a real actual newspaper. Sure it's an alternative paper, and yes we mostly think of Dan as a sex advice columnist. But he absolutely meets any legal definition of a journalist.

"And why on earth have some government agencies decided to ruin lives over this—this expression of loneliness, longing, the need for connection." What government agencies is she referencing? Is she confusing the Ashley Madison hack with the Rentboy raid by DHS???

@2 - thanks for the answer - like I said I'm just curious about the process.
@7 - Obviously there are plenty of real AM users out there and I'm sure at least some of them want to talk about their experiences. But any time an extremely click-baity story such as this takes the media by storm and journalists everywhere are rushing to post you are going to start getting a bigger chance of "sources" not being who they claim to be. After seeing so many stories blow up in the last few years because journalists didn't do some basic legwork, I get suspicious more quickly. If anything I'm more likely to think that if an actual AM user wants to talk, it'd be to someone like Dan Savage because this sort of stuff is in his wheelhouse.

@7 - Pretty sure you were just being snarky, but Dan meets even Dianne Feinstein's stupidly over-stringent definition of "journalist" as much as anyone who works at the New York Times.

[I never thought I would feel not only sympathetic about cheating, but persuaded that it changes people's lives in positive ways and allows them to maintain the family and community structures we all value.]

All? The idea that not everybody values structures of straight (fake-)monogamous privilege just never seems to occur to people like this. This is practically right out of Ibsen, although Mr Savage is better cast as Dr Stockmann in An Enemy of the People. I don't want anything to bad to happen to people because of how they order their marriages. But these people almost to the last one are acting as if they are taking Karsten Bernick from Pillars of Society for a role model, only leaving the theatre before the second half of the last act. The socially monogamous don't want to re-order society to work better for everybody; they almost entirely merely want to retain their own massive pieces of privilege by not getting caught. They don't atone the way Bernick begins to do; all we get most of the time are "softened" views that amount to Republican officials inviting Mary Cheney to dinner parties while voting for all the anti-gay proposals in the party platforms. Yes, people can pull off the full Bernick - but precious few do.

As I said about the woman working for the conservative think tank a few days earlier, I don't want anyone to be fired over this. But I'm a bit contemptuous of people who don't quit.

The really depressing this is that this is just what same-sexers are likely to assimilate into being. Oh, dear; this is giving me a migraine.

This is ridiculous. How on earth should these people still be together:
"But he and his wife struggle—contempt, years of fighting, personality quirks they resent. They have both been in years of individual therapy and participated in marriage counseling and retreats. He feels lonely and rejected"
The idea that the LW is a relief because they can be together and not fight about credit card bills or who's going to cook dinner means that his marriage is seriously flawed - I've been monogamous with my husband for 21 years and we manage to negotiate each day raising children without fighting about small things like that. I strongly suspect that the main reason most people stay in shitty marriages is to preserve social status and their finances, not because they really love their spouse despite all evidence to the contrary.

My parents were married for over 40 years until my mother died. Throughout my childhood, especially my teens, my mother was unhappy and I always thought it was my fault/the fault of all us children. In my 30s I found out (I think these things always come out in the end) that my father had been serially involved with women in what he called "platonic affairs" a couple of whom he planned to leave my mother for. Towards the end of my mother's life all this bottled-up resentment came pouring out (terminally ill people can be really mean/uncensored when suffering). I wish they had divorced a long time ago, I think it would have been my mother's best chance at happiness. In her case, it was devout Christianity that kept her married.

I think there needs to be far more transparency, visibility and acceptance of people in open relationships, or those who need or want intimacy or sex outside of their partner, as long as they have their partner's consent. Does this man's wife *know* he is getting intimacy and sex somewhere else? Did they have a discussion wherein it is acceptable for him to seek sex elsewhere? If so, why specifically go to a site marketed to "cheaters" - that's not cheating. It's having an open or monogamish relationship, and that's great! There are communities for that, and it allows people to be more honest about their situation and what they're really looking for, which destigmatizes "non-traditional" relationships by exposure and transparency (which is what Dan is calling for in all of this).

But infidelity (where one partner is unaware) as a way to save a marriage seems completely impossible. Would a marriage in which one partner is unaware that they're being exposed to someone else (and whatever health risks may come of that) ever qualify as "saved"? What about a marriage in which an unintended pregnancy could occur (inside the marriage or outside of it) that can have a real and lasting financial and/or emotional affect on all members of the family including existing children? Is that marriage saved because the person chose to stay in it and seek sex outside the relationship, rather than discuss options with their spouse and either find ways to meet their needs with their partner's consent or decide the relationship wasn't working out after all?

I don't see how anyone would advocate for someone to stay in a relationship where they are a) unhappy and b) cannot be honest with their partner about that unhappiness and c) cannot come to a mutually beneficial arrangement with said partner who they committed to with certain expectations of behavior. Let alone advocating that this person stay in the relationship and punish their unknowing spouse with exposure to health risks and possible unplanned pregnancies.I don't think anything negative should befall people in open relationships or who need or want intimacy or sex outside of their partner, as long as they have their partner's consent. Does this man's wife *know* he is getting intimacy somewhere else? Did they have a discussion wherein it is acceptable for him to seek sex elsewhere? If so, why specifically go to a site marketed to "cheaters" - that's not cheating. It's having an open or monogamish relationship, and that's great! There are communities for that, and it allows people to be more honest about their situation and what they're really looking for, which destigmatizes "non-traditional" relationships by exposure and transparency (which is what Dan is calling for in all of this).

But infidelity (where one partner is unaware) as a way to save a marriage seems completely impossible. Would a marriage in which one partner is unaware that they're being exposed to someone else (and whatever health risks may come of that) ever qualify as "saved"? What about a marriage in which an unintended pregnancy could occur (inside the marriage or outside of it) that can have a real and lasting financial and/or emotional affect on all members of the family including existing children? Is that marriage saved because the person chose to stay in it and seek sex outside the relationship, rather than discuss options with their spouse and either find ways to meet their needs with their partner's consent or decide the relationship wasn't working out after all?

I don't see how anyone would advocate for someone to stay in a relationship where they are a) unhappy and b) cannot be honest with their partner about that unhappiness and c) cannot come to a mutually beneficial arrangement with said partner who they committed to with certain expectations of behavior. Let alone advocating that this person stay in the relationship and punish their unknowing spouse with exposure to health risks and possible unplanned pregnancies.

There needs to be more transparency, visibility and acceptance of people in open relationships, or who those need or want intimacy or sex outside of their partner, as long as they have their partner's consent. Does this man's wife *know* he is getting intimacy and sex somewhere else? Did they have a discussion wherein it is acceptable for him to seek sex elsewhere? If so, why specifically go to a site marketed to "cheaters" - that's not cheating. It's having an open or monogamish relationship, and that's great! There are communities for that, and it allows people to be more honest about their situation and what they're really looking for, which destigmatizes "non-traditional" relationships by exposure and transparency (which is what Dan is calling for in all of this).

But infidelity (where one partner is unaware) as a way to save a marriage seems completely impossible. Would a marriage in which one partner is unaware that they're being exposed to someone else (and whatever health risks may come of that) ever qualify as "saved"? What about a marriage in which an unintended pregnancy could occur (inside the marriage or outside of it) that can have a real and lasting financial and/or emotional affect on all members of the family including existing children? Is that marriage saved because the person chose to stay in it and seek sex outside the relationship, rather than discuss options with their spouse and either find ways to meet their needs with their partner's consent or decide the relationship wasn't working out after all?

I don't see how anyone would advocate for someone to "save" or stay in a relationship where they are a) unhappy and b) cannot be honest with their partner about that unhappiness and c) cannot come to a mutually beneficial arrangement with said partner who they committed to with certain expectations of behavior. Let alone advocating that this person stay in the relationship and punish their unknowing spouse with exposure to health risks and possible unplanned pregnancies.

Oh, damn, it double-posted (and I had an accidental double copy-paste, too! Auuugh) Disregard #14! It's the non-proof-read version. Apologies!

It seems to me that Dan has been on a straight course to endorsing cheating as a normal course of life. And the AM episode has just put his transition into overdrive.

I'll keep saying...you can't take the vast majority of cheaters at their word. The idea that cheating saves marriage is ridiculous, even if you can find the 1 in 1 million or more example of that. Taking a cheater at their word is sloppy and just plain journalism.

I had one experience where I was the other man. I was with a woman who convinced me that she and her husband hadn't had sex for many years. She convinced me that I was unique, a special case and the love of her life. She convinced me that leaving was much too difficult for a million different reasons.

Fast forward...I learned that I was one of at least a dozen men. That many of them came from AM. That her husband was nowhere near the monster she painted; and that in fact she was the real villain in the story. It was a huge mistake on my part and I've done what i can to make amends for my participation in the affair.

But Dan is now cherry picking examples that support his premise; he's not reporting on the breach. He's pushing an agenda.

The only way to know how acceptable the affair is to the unknowing spouse is to ask them. Short of that, we're simply accepting fairytales and skewing the story.

Interesting to read these comments in response to my emails; I am the LW. This was a pretty off the cuff exchange with dan, so I can why it prompted some questions. @9 - not confusing things, no. The feds are looking into use of AM by gov't and military employees, even when they didn't use a .gov email address. So is PA. While I am sure use of AM is a technical violation, adding money to your kid's lunch account or paying a credit card bill likely is, too. There is a moralistic edge that I find unfortunate.

@12 - I hear ya, even if your "people like this" made me cringe. But your point is well taken - there is a disconnect between opposing the constraints of institutions and employing secret workarounds that effectively maintain them. My "all" was careless for sure.

@8: I actually agree about the legitimacy of Dan's credentials as a journalist and I didn't need convincing, by which I mean to say that likening him unto Rupert Murdoch really wasn't necessary.

@13 - Yes, I get it. But the thing is, they aren't miserable (your parents situation sounds far sadder). They have friction over many small things and some fundamental personality conflicts (yes, seriously flawed marriage). I would not advocate cheating to "save" a marriage where the partners are genuinely unhappy. But I think it is possible - and not uncommon - to have a generally workable relationship with your spouse that is still emotionally wanting, despite all your best efforts. I just don't think the ideal solution to that situation is a divorce that no one even wants and that would be enormously disruptive to a family.

I would have counted myself firmly in the "work it out or leave" camp for most of my life. I found it puzzling that people would rather choose the wedge that secrecy creates instead of the opportunity to find a new, healthy relationship elsewhere. I balked at the disrespect I perceived in an affair, not just for one's own spouse, but for oneself.

And then I talked to people and learned their situations and complexities, and I found a lot more moral ambiguity than I bargained for.

"I can hear Dear Prudence saying that it is this intimacy with me that undermines his marriage and creates a barrier to real intimacy with his wife. I probably would have thought that too.

But it just isn't so. "

I'd probably be more willing to believe this if she hadn't spent so much time talking about how miserable the husband is with arguments and the miseries of daily life.

For the sake of sidestepping argument, I'll assume it's as presented, but it's hard to tell from what she wrote.

@14 - amen, amen, amen. How I wish openness and honesty was possible for everyone. I am all for open marriages, monogamish arrangements, etc.

But it is simply not on the table for some couples. It just isn't. I hear what you say about the implications that has for communication, intimacy, and happiness. Of course everyone has to make their own evaluation as to whether the inability to be transparent is enough to justify chucking the whole relationship. This is especially true when other things (stability, kids) are at stake.

I know my partner would love full transparency. But he loves full access to his kids more. I understand others would make a different calculation. I don't think his calculation is "wrong" while someone else's is "right." Dishonesty is easy to cast as a black-and-white wrong. It strikes at our own insecurities and fear of betrayal. But I could also argue that full transparency, knowing it will result in a split child custody arrangement that both parents and kids would hate, is a greater "wrong" than dishonesty about one's intimate life.

I think in our culture we put honesty and transparency on a pedestal they do not deserve. I value them and want them for myself, for sure. But I have come to believe they are not sacred values that trump everything else. I found that notion pretty scary at first. I have come to be comfortable with it.

@23: "I think in our culture we put honesty and transparency on a pedestal they do not deserve."

...for reasons.

@17 Agree completely. Thanks for writing my post for me.

@17: Eh. Dan's of course looking for the "other side". Problem is most people aren't going to be as forthcoming in light of all those creepers blackmailing them en masse. Probably would've been easier if the hack and creeps hadn't occurred, but here we are.

Thanks k v for weighing in in the comments section. As is par for the course, so many people on here cannot imagine a situation that your lover was in, so they automatically judge it to be false or immoral. It is striking to me how bad people are at putting themselves in other's shoes, not just in this instance, but in the many gray areas of life.

Thanks k v for weighing in in the comments section. As is par for the course, so many people on here cannot imagine a situation that your lover was in, so they automatically judge it to be false or immoral. It is striking to me how bad people are at putting themselves in other's shoes, not just in this instance, but in the many gray areas of life.

Ms V - Full credit for appearing and taking your lumps. My personal experience with successful adultery was from the viewpoint of the unwitting accomplice - when I was young, my father would take me to weekend chess tournaments as cover for his trysts.

I can accept (though far less often than Mr Savage) cheating as the least terrible option, but least terrible is still somewhat terrible, and the onus is on successful adulterers to prove they aren't just getting away with it and maintaining the same rotten system that punishes people for being open about it. Another parallel is the film Another Country, in which almost everyone indulges and lies about it, any the wheels just keep turning.

For someone who has never met the wife, you are awfully sure you know that her marriage became magically better because her husband is getting sex on the side.

Ah, but that is what he tells you right?

And what she doesn't know couldn't hurt her... . Because honesty and transparency is over valued by society. Well, that is easy to say when you aren't the one left in the dark.

I do value honesty and transparency. So thank you very much, I don't need you rewriting my values because you find it convenient for you. And I deserve the right to decide my own life.

I really want to hear from the spouses. .. because I once was a CPOS. My ex didn't think it benefited our marriage one bit.

@30...perfect. Thanks.

KV, it is not a black and white story, to be sure.
My father betrayed my mother, she only found out about it after he died.
This was the 50's-60's, a time when
many men went that way, and the culture turned a blind eye.
I can understand why he did it, my mother a difficult woman( she still kicking, one more late husband and many many yrs later), and no way could they have afforded two houses. The family lived on just his wage.
It's great Dan is offering people who have been exposed by this hack, such compassion and acceptance.

My best friend for thirty years is on this site and I have known her husband just as long. He knows it's not his business and so do I. So why do you imagine it's any of yours?

Scurries to investigate APG...giggity.

LW/KV, has your lover ever discussed an open or monagamish relationship with his wife? If not, why not? He's reaping the benefits (for now) of an open relationship; why shouldn't his wife?

See the other letter on this site from the son/daughter of someone on AM who got caught. That is one of the very real hazards of cheating. Has your lover considered the damage that results when cheating comes to light? And cheating so often is discovered in spite of our best efforts to keep it secret. Won't the result be worse than if he and his wife had gotten a divorce instead of him cheating? After the cheating is discovered, the result is likely to be a divorce under even worse conditions, with perhaps less favorable parental rights for him.

"Honesty is the best policy" because that old saying is almost always true.

Thanks for responding to these posts.

It is not anyone's place to judge any of these people. Cast the first stone, and all that.
Yes, sexual cheating is a deep betrayal, it hurts like hell. It is still the private business of the people involved.
All this sexual moralising, is of no use, now. These people are hurting badly, do we need to add to that. I'm guessing they are getting enough condemnation from their own people.
Do any of us know any other marriage. Half the time, I found it hard to even know my own.

I'm glad my father found some comfort in other womens' arms, before he died. Cause he sure didn't find any in my mothers.
And he did his work, looking after his children. Her as well.

My mother could have gone to work, once the children at school. No, she didn't help ease the economic burden on my father.
A marriage has lots of areas where energy is exchanged...where the word cheating could be applied if the exchange isn't fair.. not just the sexual.

@hello

First, don't care what is going on in random people's marriage unless they write in. If they write in with glaring blind spots like this one I am going to point that out.

Second, if your friend has reached a DADT with her husband, then she (I assume) has done all that I think is ethically required for a relationship, been honest.

@35 - I don't know exactly what kinds of conversations my lover has had with his wife about the possibility of an open marriage. I do know he considers that possibility unavailable to him based on his knowledge of and familiarity with her. She is smart, worldly, and well read, so the concept is likely one she has thought about at least abstractly. But she is quite conventional and is happy that way.

It is certainly possible that he just wants to avoid the hard work and the emotional strain of discussing and working out an open arrangement. People who are either in truly monogamous relationships or in open relationships work hard to keep those relationships healthy, with the unique challenges each arrangement presents. There's an element of having-your-cake-and-eating-it-too about cheating that both the monogamists and the open/poly couples resent, because it is admittedly dodging the kind of hard emotional work that is required for a transparent relationship.

That being said, I accept his represention that an open arrangement is simply off the table for him. That leaves him with the choice of accepting his lot and remaining faithful, divorce, or cheating. The first option is honest but unhappy and lonely; the second is devastating to an entire family. The third carries the risk of exposure, shame, and hurt, but also promotes connectedness and emotional and sexual satisfaction.

I know, I know - some of you have said it loud and clear: what would his wife say about that last point? The connected and satisfaction are at the expense of the transparency of her own marriage. That is absolutely true. I get that, and I hear you. And no, she wouldn't like it, if she knew.

But I say again, transparency isn't everything. There are times when it is just better not to know, either because of the emotional toll of that knowledge or the way that it fundamentally changes a relationship. I don't need to know every passing thought my spouse has. I don't need to know the nuances of his feelings for every person in his life. I've come to believe that trust is less about dogmatic adherence to specific rules and expectations, and more about the broad brush strokes. The big picture is his commitment and dedication to the support and well being of his family. It's the continued efforts he makes to work through the disagreements and tension that arise with his wife.

That one of the ways he copes with that big picture is spending an afternoon in bed with me now and then just doesn't strike me as a huge moral transgression any more, at this stage of my life, with the experiences I have had. That what started as a coping measure turned out to have an unexpectedly positive influence has cemented my belief that complete transparency can do far more harm than good, and that our demand for transparency often turns out to be a Pandora's box.

Last point - i have been asked if I have thought about the consequences of being caught, and about whether I have considered problems like STDs and accidental pregnancy. Well, yes, of course. Regardless of your opinion of the position I have taken on this, I think you'd likely agree that I have thought about it carefully. I have managed the risks as well as possible and make my choices with awareness of those risks.

@18 - just wanted to thank you for writing in and appearing in the comments. I completely agree with @3 - both in the wish and the prediction.

I think you've nailed it: ...learned their situations and complexities, and I found a lot more moral ambiguity than I bargained for. and pretty much all of @23. Just last night I got another lesson in "nobody knows what goes on in other people's marriages" when I found out a couple who appeared to be in fantastic shape are very likely divorcing (no AM involved).

All that said, I also think the arguments about transparency have some real legitmacy because they get to the fundamental issue - not proping up an institution, but avoiding the hard work of a partnership. I think it's probably a fair assertion that in a majority of cases, cheaters are simply taking what is the most convenient option for themselves - preserving their social and financial status as noted above (which is not a conspiracy to prop up the Het Patriarchy so much as propping up personal comfort).

The problem with cheating is that the issue is rarely about the physical sex itself - it's often about broken emotional intimacy and alienation, something that a fake-partner (an affair partner, who you don't live with day in and day out) provides a faux-substitute for. Even in the case that you don't have broken intimacy with your primary partner, you're likely to develop emotional bonds with an AP, and there's a good chance they might overwhelm your bonds with your "old hat" partner: this is the font of poly-drama.

I do have to agree with the majority saying "honesty is the best policy", in most cases. I just think most of those folks exude a moral certitude which is similarly lazy, if not psychological splitting, and that a lot of that kind of talk is used as a way to maintain leverage over a partner or avoid introspection: if you want this thing I refuse (or am unable) to give you, you're going to have to be willing to blow up your entire life (and maybe mine) to get it. As someone who did the "honorable and transparent" thing in order to get a sex life (and a family) that amounted to more than resentful duty service, I want to know why I am obligated to remain "true" to a bait-and-switch? And it sure as hell wasn't for a lack of "effort" at trying to work through the issues (many years of therapy, sex and regular). I've been paying literally and figuratively now for almost as long as the marriage lasted (and it was well over a decade). The "honesty and transparency" crowd get tiresome using that as a bludgeon pretending that it's an "easy button" that simply needs to be pushed. The playing field is very very heavily tilted in favor of faithful shitty partners. You're free to check out emotionally, sexually and effort-wise, so long as you don't cheat, and when you get dumped for it finally, you get to be the "victim" of a "selfish person". That's horseshit.

My ex wife told me I "crushed her sexuality" by being "honest and transparent" and admitting under much duress during our break up that I wanted a decent sex life (as if the requests for sex counseling, and the multiple rounds of begging, pleading and cajoling - all of which were answered with shut-up-about-that-shaming - weren't adequate "communication"). I didn't crush her sexuality - she did - and she expected me to be happy with it. Nobody wants to hear this, but many many many of the cheated upon (my mother is the most powerful example in my personal life - I don't think that was primarily about sex) absolutely deserve it. I grew up with my father as the "villain" but once I had to deal with my mother as an adult, and had the benefit of more life experience, I was honestly left wondering: Why TF did you stick it out so long? Sexuality is nearly the only thing about modern marriage in which this imbalance in favor of the prudish, low drive, sex-negative partner is still tolerated, but in general there's the prejudice that "for better or worse" is somehow a figurative suicide pact requiring us to stick with a shitty partner.

My doomed marriage was hardly broken over just sex alone - though I suppose if my ex-wife had been able to tolerate an open marriage, I would have been able to remain in it maybe a little longer. I suspect that would have simply highlighted the other disconnects and I would have developed a new bond with someone else and left anyway. But the enormous social and financial penalty for "being transparent" kept me in place for a good five or six years longer than an "easy button" would have allowed, and even then, I nearly didn't. You are quite glib like this is "no big deal" but it's a hell of a burden. I want to ask the people who like this leverage: why on earth do you think you want someone who wants to get away from you and is just "stuck" with you? Seriously? I've been dumped too, and it can really feel like your world is collapsing and your heart is torn out, but to be utterly trite "I can't make you love me if you don't"....using leverage to hold someone in place - social and financial or custody - who you know no longer loves you. What do you get from that? Those people need to go do some very serious introspection.

Which brings me to @17 again: so you decided to have an affair and fall in love with an attached person and you're bitter about her dishonesty...ven You took a huge risk - probably lied to yourself (perhaps unconsciously) about the risk - and it blew up and you're heartbroken and it's all her fault for being a CPOS. That's just ridiculous on it's face. If you are going to be busy weilding that sword of certitude - black and white demands for transparency and honesty - then be ware that it's a double-edged thing, and in your case you should think a bit about your own reasons for choosing someone who was attached as a prospective partner in the first place. If we're all going to be pre-occupied with pushing people to do the hard work of transparency and honesty, it has to start with ourselves and our own motives.

I am reminded of the essence of the classic con: appeal to greed. It's very easy to get someone to hand over their bank account by telling them you'll share your ill-gotten gains (from someone else) with them if only they will give you the number. And then the mark is in high dudgeon about cheats who con them and rip them off when their bank account is drained. It always takes two to tango.

You know what’s also a drag about all of this open/poly/cheating stuff going on? It’s that there seems to be nowhere I can escape from the pressures of sexuality/romantic entanglement. Now, even in every friendship, there’s this (often unwelcome) element of “potential.”

I made a new friend recently who is female (as I am) and is married. Cool, new friends are always good to have. And she’s married, so that removes the element of “let’s go out and meet BOYS!” that I find in too many of my single-lady-friendships. We’d hung out a few times, gone to a few places together, when she told me that she’s bisexual and in a semi-open marriage. My first though was “goddammit.” Now I sometimes feel like she’s sizing me up (and not because bi people or open people are predators, yadda yadda, but because I really think she’s sizing me up), and she behaves like someone who has a crush on me. Can’t I just have a friendship where that ISN’T an option? Where there’s no spectre of “will we or won’t we”?

I feel like I’m not expressing this very well and am anticipating some rough treatment about it. I wish I could adequately express how exhausting it is, especially as a single and monogamous person who would like at some point to have a steady/stable relationship. I feel surrounded by people who aren’t just having and eating their cake, but rolling around in it and throwing lumps of it at me as well.

Thank you, Dan, for running this article... Thank you, KV, for talking to him, and for taking part in the comments at the risk of being attacked, and thank you, LavaGirl and other compassionate souls for seeing the complexity of this situation and not just hitting the 'if you're not happy, get a divorce!' button!

I am a proud and satisfied former AM user, and so is my wife. I haven't been on lately because I have begun to identify as polyamorous/non-monogamous and switched to OKC because there seem to be more like-minded people there. My wife and I opened our marriage about 10 years ago and we have both met many good, real people on AM who are suffering for a number of reasons and cannot or will not divorce their spouses. We have had enriching relationships where we truly believe we have helped them (and they have helped us) be happier in our lives.

I am SO SICK of reading these articles asserting the false notion that AM users are 99% men 'talking to each other' and that most or all of the female profiles are fake! This is just not true--I have met many female friends and had months- or years-long email relationships with them and I have had very enjoyable intimate relationships with several. They are real women, believe me. And then are *good* women, married to *good* men, not evil cheating philanderers who deserve scorn and holier-than-thou judgment from the public at large.

Most of the women I have talked to love their husbands dearly but are simply not getting enough intimacy/sex to suit them, for a wide variety of reasons. My wife has had similar explanations from her partners. They still love their spouses, they have children and households and jobs and lives that would all be turned upside down if they divorced simply because their sex drive is a little higher than their spouses are comfortable with, or they want to try things to which their spouses refuse. A few have had problematic or abusive relationships, and a few have subsequently divorced... but most are just sexually unfulfilled in an otherwise happy and productive marriage. Their spouses may be disabled, too busy, possibly cheating on them as well, or most of the time, simply uninterested in sex with them anymore. But that doesn't mean they don't still love and respect each other and want to continue their life partnership.

This lack of fulfillment causes depression, anxiety, and resentment in an otherwise happy marriage. We feel these people deserve the fulfillment they are lacking, without being pressured to upend their lives and that of their families and children. And I have learned never to judge anyone for 'cheating.' Monogamy is difficult, and as the book Sex at Dawn point out, humans are not naturally monogamous creatures. I feel that our society, especially in this country, puts far too much emphasis on sex... the prevailing attitude is, a little extramarital sexual dalliance, if discovered automatically means divorce is indicated. Divorce has become so common that people see it as preferable to figuring out how to compromise and work out your problems, so you can make your marriage work with the one you chose to spend your life with.

Love, reason, compassion... that is the standpoint from which I and my wife are operating. And yes, I admit that our partners' spouses are being 'cheated on'... but we feel it is between the two of them (the married couple) to deal with these issues. If a woman's husband's way of dealing with his low sex drive is to stop ever having sex with his wife, I don't feel that much remorse helping her get some fulfillment and satisfaction while still being able to stay with him and maintain her more important partnership.

I have met some of my best friends ever on AM. I am still deeply enriched by their friendships. And now they are all living under this panic that they will be discovered, and the widespread attitude that they deserve whatever they get because they are bad people. But we are all human beings, deserving of love, compassion, and fulfillment in life. Life is indeed short. A little flirtation or sex outside of marriage should not be a death sentence for that marriage.

"I have met some of my best friends ever on AM. I am still deeply enriched by their friendships."

Chatbots and AM employees probably make for a good listening ear.

I don't imagine that there hasn't been a single incident of infidelity though AM, but whenever I see someone talk about multiple connections when there are ~1200 women who have ever checked their messages, and an even smaller subset who are regular users, I have a hard time taking these anecdotes seriously.

~1200 WORLDWIDE, I mean. That post sounds as if it was written by AM marketing.

Snark aside (what with all the fake articles about the guy having sex with "60" women and employees shilling elsewhere), JohnnyRhythm seems to be an older account, so how did you actually meet these women then? Just though their chat?

First you meet through a chat on the site (men have to use prepaid 'points' to initialize contact, then you can chat freely), but almost always we immediately then exchanged emails and began talking that way. And I am pretty confident that I was not deluding myself, believing I was talking to real women instead of chatbots... I ended up having very enjoyable sex with several of them, and I learned of the complexities of their relationships, their love amid frustrations with their husbands, their children and extended families... turns out they were real actual people, just like you and me! Assuming, undead ayn, that you are not a chatbot. ;)

You notice I said 'men have to pay... I think that is why there is this notion that no real women were on the site. Everyone uses fake names and dedicated emails for those purposes, and only men have their credit card information on there. For women, all they have is a cute username, some info about what they're looking for, and maybe a few pictures. Much harder to trace.

I mean, when it comes down to it, it's really one person's word against another's... if you choose to believe that I am a shill for AM, or not a real person, or a pathetic man who is deluding himself, that is your right. But I get the impression that a lot of people with those attitudes do not have much/any experience with AM. If you choose to believe all the articles saying there are no real women on the site, written by people who probably also have very little experience with the site, then that is your right too. But people like KV and I DO have experience with it, and I don't see what our motive would be to go online and risk 'outing' in this giant feeding frenzy, if we didn't feel like we had a point to make. And my point is that not only are there real people, they are *good* people, deserving of respect and compassion.

And believe me, I did see my share of fake female profiles. You can spot them a mile away... some smoking hot babe 1/2 my age, named 'SexyKitten69' or some shit, just baiting me to spend my money on contacting them. And there are also a ton of profiles created by a woman in a fit of pique against her spouse or during a weak moment, and then abandoned forever. Those are the ones who never checked their messages. But you learn to tell who the real people are.

I'm not in love with AM right now, to be clear... I do feel their breach of trust (not encrypting peoples' information, charging for a complete wipe and then not doing it) are very upsetting and possibly actionable. I'm not defending AM, but I am defending some of the people who have used it.

I am one of those advocating transparency. It is not a consequence of lazy thinking, but hard earned experience of watching my parents, my own marriage, and those of several around me blow apart with the "coup de grace" of adultery. I use that term with intent. These were failed relationships beyond "mere sex." Divorce was in the cards with all of its negative consequences - the loss of retirements, the loss of money, shuttling kids, selling the house. This is what happens when you have to undue a life built with someone else.

In my case, I own it, the blow up of marriage wasn't that I was CPOS, but that I married badly, very badly. And I d@mn well knew it at the time.

So if that is the background, what does cheating do? Cheaters say, "well it allows me to stay in this bad marriage and prevent the nuclear option." Really? Based on my experience (not a study at all), that's how they feel until they are actually caught. Once caught, most of them regret the path. Either they regret losing the marriage, or they regret not just filing for divorce without the added nuclear explosion of the cheating. Certainly, not all affairs are discovered. But if they are.... phew..... Because, get this, it *really* *really* *really* hurts the other person. And hurt people with the tools of the legal system at their disposal get really, really, really mean, and will cut off their own nose if they can take yours with them.

So we turn to this, "I'm not getting (enough, great, sufficient) sex at home, but everything else is awesome. These are my thoughts on that: first, if your SO isn't meeting you even close to half way on this - i.e, your husband isn't sending you flowers or doing a little wooing; your wife won't get in your pants occasionally - despite your extensive efforts to start the process, I'd bet that the rest of your marriage isn't really awesome. And if someone is refusing to even *care* about your needs, I do consider that its own betrayal. Is the answer to look on AM for an affair partner? Well, I return to my paragraph above. Where are you heading anyway?

And if you do have a responsive so, but they just can't meet everything you want to do in bed? Okay, this is where I start to lose some sympathy and want to say, "grow the f--- up." Yeah, yeah, we should have a right to some "happiness," but life is a compromise in *everything,* including for your genitalia and sexual proclivities. The man over which I blew up my first marriage - wow, he was AMAZING in bed, smart and charming. I kept dating him after my divorce. But, when I started to look at him for more than a nice roll in the bed, I realized, guess what, he isn't so awesome and was actually bad for me. Because, one of the little negatives of life is that we don't get to build our perfect SO. (ergo Dan's round them up to the 1). I moved on, and ultimately remarried. The man I married? Satisfying but not like the first guy. He's willing, always willing, and cares very much about me in bed. But he offers me oh so much and so much more than sex.

I know people right now are writing me off, perhaps, as a female with a lower sex drive. Heheh, not so. And I like strange. I get tempted. I sometimes want more than what I get in bed. I was a bona fide pervert for quite a while, and that stuff, it doesn't magically go away.

But I've made a deal. I don't want to work, but I need to work to pay the bills. I want that companion, so I've made a deal with that companion.

Again, as I've written before, I can understand the desire to cheat, really. I can understand the slip. I slipped right into a full blown affair. I understand that there really are marriages where people are trapped.

But, as I have written before, I really feel that the exceptions are swallowing the rule, and when loosey goosey language such as (no offense to you Johnny) "deserving of love, compassion,, and fulfillment" becomes a very easy out to do whatever one wants without consideration of the consequences of that decision.

As I mentioned before, I went through a six month plus period after the birth of my second child where my sex drive took a nose dive. I didn't even want to be touched because my personal space, my bodily integrity, had been so overwhelmed and violated. It all came back for sure, but had my husband decided that he deserved a "little fulfillment," because I was in such a position, we would have been over.

I'd like to point out, this is my outlook on these matters. And ultimately, I am glad I wasn't successful at carrying out my affair. I was able to find a new marriage and a much better deal. I was lucky as well, I didn't have kids when it all went down, that freed me too.

Every time I get tempted, and it still happens ten years in, I look at the life I have *and* the kids I have, and run again the cost benefit analysis I made when I married a man I knew would not accept an open marriage, and I keep the deal.

That's me, and it isn't lazy thought process. I walk it.

And as to judging... "don't judge, don't judge...." I can have compassion, and still disagree with people's reasoning. It was "judging" my parents marriage and my own previous marriage, that leads me to the conclusion I am now.

I prefer *not* to be one of those people who refuses to learn from other people's mistakes.

#30...damn straight.

I keep wondering what Dan's advice would be if the wife wrote in.

"Dan, I just found out my wonderful spouse has been having an affair on AM. He claims that unlike every married couple on earth we bicker too much about credit card bills and household chores and besides, the affair makes him happy, which infuses every part of our sad sham of a marriage with the simulacrum of joy! I thought my life was perfect. What should I do?" --AM Widow

It's ballsy of Ms. V to talk about her experience, but this guy is the AM CPOS poster boy.

@DarkHorseRising, beckysharp52, JohnnyRhythm, AFinch, K V, undead ayn rand, etc.:
We have two similar threads going on: this one and the one over at the weekly Savage Love column. I think it would be great if they merged, because some folks there don't go "here." Why don't you come on over and bring your posts with you and we can all have this discussion in one place?

Which column? All I see is Euda feuding over domestic violence. Don't feel like getting into that one.

@DHR (52): the main one on Savage Love (Ashley's Ashes). JohnnyRhythm has already found his way over.
Come on in; you're comments are so thoughtful and insightful.

@51 - I do like chatting with you but I wasn't sure how happy about that screed @40 I am.

@54: Aw, you can still come over AFinch! I thought it was worthwhile.

@47: Thanks for the explanation. Apologies for the initial tone, AM is shady as hell as a corporation and i cant help being kneejerk suspicious of any positive endorsements coming out right now what with their past record of deception and stories like the 60-women fling guy.

@52: "Which column? All I see is Euda feuding over domestic violence. Don't feel like getting into that one."

Ye gods, nooooooo.

this one undead- http://www.thestranger.com/columns/savag…

lol. Didnt realize you were quoting Darkhorse....

@41. The women too, now. Which I think is great, about time women en mass found their sexual selves.
It is nice to have just straight women friends, mine always have a tinge of sexual content, keeps it alive, I feel.

@59: Avoids pushing that big red button... :0

@39 KV: Thanks for your response. I just can't help thinking, based on my experience as a cheater who got caught, that you and your lover are taking a terrible risk. I didn't have as much to lose as you do, but ultimately, I took a somewhat disadvantageous financial settlement to just get the divorce finalized. By that time, only my lawyer cared about the settlement and she made me sign a waiver acknowledging that it was less that she thought I should get and absolving her of blame. Lawyers!

From my experience and my observations of others, as well as the responses on this site re cheating, I would say that nothing causes anger and bitterness and even a desire for revenge like being cheated on. Divorce is hell, but it is an even bigger hell when cheating comes to light. It just seems to be human nature to go berserk over cheating.

I hope things work out for the best for you and I hope you never get caught. Because I don't believe anyone "deserves" the kind of hell that breaks loose over cheating.

Hooo boy, I broke down and read the comment, Chairman.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qLrnkK2YEc…

@37 Lava. Good point on cheating on one's responsibilities in other than sexual ways.

Good wishes to everyone here who's trying to make life work the best that they can.

63 - you lost me undead.... is "the comment" in question my link that was an answer to the question "which column"??

that video is awesome btw. never seen it before.

nm... my confusion stayed in my head long enough to realize that you must be referring to "his comments"...in the other thread... as opposed to a single comment anywhere else.

To the LW. When I finally spoke to one of my husbands affair partners (because eventually shit finally comes out) she sounded a lot like you. She was helping him! Enriching his life! Saving a marriage. Vomit. For the record, we had a strong passionate marriage for 20 years. But once my husband became involved with other women he became verbally abusive. I think being around me made him feel guilty. Or perhaps his new bonds with other people shredded his empathy for me. This is the classic pattern. as the wife in the dark, I tried desperately to regain his love and blamed myself for not been good enough. Once I found out and he dumped his affair partners he transformed. Now he wants to be a real partner to me again. But I think it's too late. My heart is shattered. My self esteem is in the. Toilet. It is so unbearable to realize I was a chump for years. My life is ruined. If he had only been honest I think I could have recovered. But he wanted a secret life. An unequal relationship. and in doing so demonstrated that he had zero respect or care for me (or our family) for that matter. But go ahead. Keep telling yourself you are doing a good decent thing. What a joke.

I'm with you @67. My ex-husband was a CPOS. Was he happier when he was cheating? Of course! He was screwing another woman and getting away with it; what's not to love? But it was a happiness that didn't include me and I felt that distance every single day. We were in two different marriages. Mine was a monogamous relationship that we had both agreed to, and his was an open marriage that only he knew about. It was a house divided and we all know what happens to those. I am so much happier without him.

@67
I think you are on to something in regard to people wanting to have a secret life. Sometimes, marriage is just so mundane. With a critical spouse, the mundane becomes a source of pain. Every little decision is "out there" to be criticized... it is soul crushing.
I am not saying that a rigid or hyper critical spouse "deserves" to be cheated on, but I understand it.

@69 So the answer to finding married life mundane is to betray me? Turn me into a chump? Fuck that. Grow up. Find joy and excitement in life while treating the people close to you with respect, whether or not you love them anymore. Don't want the marriage any more? Talk to me honestly.

As for finding excuses for my cheating husband (oh may be he was suffering from soul crushing criticsm) Total blameshifting and not true. I was a great wife. Totally supportive. Not critical or rigid. He was the one who became verbally abusive, once he started investing romantic and sexual interest elsewhere. (and yes that was soul crushing but I would never lie to or betray him). Soul crushing? Finding out your partner has been secretly fucking other people behind your back

@67 - Your pain is palpable, and I am sorry for that. But what seemed like a strong passionate marriage in your case actually wasn't - it was a sham. And it wasn't your husband's partners that made it a sham; it was his own need for something else. That is not to say that you fell short or bear any blame. I think for some people, even a good marriage isn't everything they need or want from life. And I don't think that makes someone a POS (though being verbally abusive does).

As for my own actions, I sleep just fine at night. My lover's situation is not yours. Neither he nor his wife believe the marriage is either happy or passionate. It is a troubled marriage, but one they have decided is better than divorce. That's distinctly different from the situation you described.

So yes, I maintain that I am doing a decent thing. I appreciate that some strongly disagree. But every situation is different, and I have thought long and hard about mine.

@71 K V - In cases such as these, when communication is not transparent between all parties, I don't know that it's possible for either party (spouse or lover) to know what is true or false to the degree that it is fair to label one of the relationships a passionless sham. Sometimes the cheating party is lying to both/all sex partners about their motivations and the state of each relationship. This was my experience, though I don't know how common it is.