That'll make the Justices reconsider.
I heard about this yesterday. It seems like the LDS is taking a page from the Catholic handbook.

Make a lot of noise about trying to be more inclusive towards gay people, and then do everything in their power to fuck them over.

I agree with Dan. This is actually good in the long run as it will motivate even more gay people and children of gay people to stay the fuck away from these institutions. The hypocrisy is strong with both.
News about religious organizations not allowing gay people to partake of their rites, rituals, and full inclusion always gives me a tiny bit of whiplash, as my thought process goes something like:
1. That's not fair!
2. Actually, the gays are better off without religion so they're unintentionally doing the gays a big favor.
3. This is great news!
The more they tighten their grip, the more gaybies will slip through their fingers.
I can't help but wonder...

How many people is this even going to apply to? How many practicing Mormons are actually openly gay folks in relationships that have kids and want those kids blessed and baptized? Has this ever come up in a real life situation for them to decide to reject it, or are they just saying "Y'know, hypothetically speaking..." to make a political statement? It's like those pizza guys. "If anyone wants to order our pizza for their gay wedding, then too bad for them!" But they're the ones who came up with the idea in the first place.
I'm confused as to why they'd even feel the need to state this outright. Wouldn't the gay parents already be kicked out? So why would the already-kicked-out gay parents send their kids to the church from which they've been kicked out?
Nomen said it better.
Hey, cool! In requiring children to renounce their parents, the Mormon church has just joined the pantheon of totalitarian entities that includes North Korea and the late, unlamented East Germany.

As if it wasn't fucked up enough for that fascist wackadoodle pseudo-religious cult to encourage parents to renounce, disown, and cut off all contact with their children, sisters their brothers and brothers their sisters, now children get to disown their parents.

Do you want a definition of evil? There it is.
What about after children of same-sex marriages who pass away? Can they still be posthumously baptized even if they are buried with their gay parents, or must they be exhumed and re-buried in a more godly location?
@5, 6

Here are a few scenarios where this is non-theoretical: children of couples that split up and share custody where one parent is now in a same-sex relationship, children who don't want to be excluded from a predominantly Mormon community, children who want to convert to the religion, and the children of same-sex parents who are still believers (yes, this happens) who want their kids to be part of the Mormon faith.

This ban apparently applies until the age of 18, at which point children have the option of specifically disavowing the validity of their parents' relationship. Ah, good old-fashioned family values….
My opinion of religion remains the same.
I was stunned by the final sentence that SLC apparently has elected a lesbian mayor (subject to some final counts) - wow! Congrats to the deep blue Democrats in Happy Valley.

Also, agree on the kids dodging a bullet here. As a non-Mormon who attended elementary school in SLC decades ago, I know what it means to be on the outside, and it was wonderful not be be caught up in all of that....
@ 8 - You forgot Scientology. Or perhaps you didn't mention it for fear of retaliation?
@9: Further to that, if children of same sex couples staunchly support their gay parents, would they all be effectively immunized from a Mormon post-mortem baptism/conversion? That would be helpful.
What I want to know is.... are heterosexual couples "living in sin" subject to the same rule about co-habitation?

Living together without the holy bonds of matrimony.... can your children still be baptized/blessed?

Anybody out there know?
SLC is very different from the rest of Utah. Even in SLC the LDS has a grip on quite a bit of everyday life. Outside SLC you can't avoid it. Being on the outside of the LDS can be a real problem. You won't get hired, you won't be included in a lot of the social life, etc.
Think of it like's equivalent to not being allowed to speak or understand English here. Sure, you can find some other people that do speak your language and you could survive, but you'd be at a real disadvantage for employment and social interaction.
A little confused: Is this and edict directed toward gay LDS church members (does that exist?), or is it a memo concerning the tradition of baptizing non-LDS members without their knowledge?


It establishes that living people in same-sex relationships are apostate and that their children (living in their households and whatnot) cannot go through the normal rituals of the LDS faithful without dispensation from the highest levels of the church. Adult children cannot go through those and other rituals without specifically disavowing the validity of their parents' relationship. To my knowledge, it has no bearing on the LDS tradition of proxy baptisms of the dead.
It's odd, but every single Mormon or ex-mormon I've met has been a ridiculously nice person. Then the church comes out with stuff like this?!
@13 Everyone should forget Scientology.
I'm sure there will be another "divine" revelation from the Almighty to reverse this action once Mormons realize what a disastrous PR stunt this is. Just like polygamy!
But! But! But! The *social* implications!

As if somehow these hypothetical gays aren't already ostracised from the Mormon community, and they don't have their own social circles to belong to.
Meh. It's their religion, so within the religion they get to do whatever nonsense they want, as long as it's legal - no sacrificing virgins, eating babies, etc.

Isn't this what we're always telling them, that as long as they keep their religion out of the public square, and stop trying to force people who don't belong to their faith to follow the rules of their faith, nobody cares what they believe, no matter how fucked up it is?

Not allowing children in same sex households to participate fully in the gobbledegook is only slightly more stupid than the gobbledegook itself, so, who cares?
@23 yes they have a right to do it. But we have a right to comdemn them and point out we know exactly what they are doing.

Think about the insidious nature of this. This isn't simply about condemning gay relationships. This is about putting pressure on gay people who aren't members of the church to live according to church doctrine by going after their children who have been raised in the church.

For instance, a gay LDS convinces himself he is straight and married a LDS woman, has kids, raises them in the church with a strong LDS identity. Later he can't take it any longer. He comes out, gets excommunicated, has an amicable divorce, and retains good relationships with his kids.

All good.

But now he wants to get involved with another man. But if he does so his children, for whom going on a mission is considered the ultimate rite of passage, and for whom not going on a mission will hinder their chances of finding someone in the church to marry, are being told they can't go on a mission, can't be baptized, and can't be a member any longer because their father is in a same sex relationship.

Now dad has to make a choice. He either has to give up any chance at having a relationship or go for it and his kids basically get excluded from the only community they have ever known. If he persues a happy life he is the bad guy for not sacrificing for his kid's happiness.

This is what this is all about.

Do they have a right to do this? Yes.

But it's fucked up and blatantly evil, and the rest of us have a right to point out fingers at them and let them know we see how fucked up it is and that we condemn them, which is OUR right.
@ 24 - Oh, I agree, we can condemn it and let them know we see it as fucked up. We certainly have the right to.

But to do so, in any large-scale way, seems to me to be playing right into their "Religion is under attack! We must protect our Religious Freedom!" martyrdom. Your basic Joe Voter, a mildly conservative Sunday Christian who is not a hater but not a supporter, who barely thinks about these things, sees an attack by progressives on what appears to be, on the face of it, an internal Mormon issue, and next time a Religious Freedom Amendment comes up locally, votes for it, because see what those liberals are trying to do to the Mormons.

This is the kind of thing that will collapse under its own weight anyway, because for the most part, when people have to choose between their religion and their loved ones, they tend, especially if given some time, to choose their loved ones. Those kids will look at what their religion requires of them, look at their dad, and think, as so many of us have done before them "Wait a minute, that's fucked up. Not gonna do it".

Something along those lines is why I left the church I was raised in, and I'm willing to bet it's part of the story of most of those here who were raised in a religious tradition - you are forced to choose, and you don't choose exclusion and craziness.
Long time reader, first time poster.

I live in Utah and I am a born and raised member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

This announcement has caused a lot of strong feelings, both for those in agreement with the Church and those opposed to the decision, of which there are MANY (including all my family: parents and siblings).

Yes, there are gay members of the Church. People who have wanted to be part of the faith and be themselves. I have read essays by gay members where they express the anguish they felt and the difficulty they faced. Many gay/lesbians church members leave the Church.

#24 - don't quote me on this because policy just happened but I believe that in your scenario, likely the mother would have custody of the kids so the kids would not be living in a same-sex household, only a single mother household. If the father did have custody of his kids with his same-sex partner, I don't know what the church would do in that case.

Please don't fight this, people. When Satan's henchmen decide they don't want you to be influenced by them, they are actually doing God's work. So, if you're gay your kids can't be a Mormon. THANK YOU, JESUS!

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