SL Letter of the Day: High Hopes

Comments

1
I've never understood why there isn't more empathy from shorter men toward the body-shaming that fat women endure. I'm only 5'-9", and thankfully I've only had one real experience where I was flat out rejected because I wasn't taller, and it sucked! dudes should be out on the front lines of fighting back against body shaming too.
2
Reading this letter, I sense the lack of confidence and self-esteem is the bigger culprit than height regarding the LW's lack of dating success. I'd recommend the classic advice: do extra-curricular things you love, forge relationships with those who share your passions, and be open to approaching/being approached by those who aren't otherwise perfect.
3
Dan has it totally right: "redouble your efforts at regular dating websites." Whatever their drawbacks and limitations, dating sites really can be a huge help in finding a partner. Take the time to write a good self-summary and find a few good photos of yourself, so that potential partners have a good sense of your appearance, and be honest about what you're seeking. And for LW's purposes there's at least one OkCupid question about whether you would date someone shorter than you, which gives LW a quick way to find women for whom her partner's height doesn't matter.

How exactly does OkCupid collect data on the number of sex partners members have? I've read this assertion regarding 6'0"+ women elsewhere, but I wonder where OkCupid obtained that information.
4
I have found that tall girls who are fit, but not necessarily athletes often have confidence problems, they have had a lifetime of obnoxious, (usually girl), classmates and dealing with guys who feel inadequate next to a taller woman. @2 has it right, keep up on the hobbies and personality. It's too bad that LW isn't gay or at least bi-curious, if he's reasonably attractive he would have no problems in that world.
5
I'm sure male entitlement has nothing to do with it.
6
@2: Wait. "Drosophila", as in "SLOG commenter, with one the slyest handles, who vanished without a trace, as if into Amazon jungle, like five years ago". That Drosophila?
7
@5: bingo. As an average height female, my experience with shorter guys is that many of them have a chip on their shoulder about their height, making them assholes in general due to their attitude. Vicious circle. They think, "You won't date me because I'm short" and I think, "I won't date you because you're an entitled jerk".

I date short guys. I just don't date jerks.
8
Keep your chin up JCIL. Confidence wins ladies over height any day of the week and happy relationships start with you. Figure out what makes you happy and confident and focus on that first.
9
@2 and @7 have it right, for me anyway. I never really thought about height as an important factor. My current partner is exactly the same height as me and I love it!
10
@1: I've pointed this out to a few bitter short dudes. It might not surprise you that, as @7 noted, many bitter short dudes are assholes and thus furnish an asshole response:

In a nutshell, they think selecting on the basis of height makes no sense because there's nothing they can do about their height, and thus it does not correlate to any other trait. In contrast, fat women are fat because they are lazy/entitled/unhealthy/undisciplined/etc., and thus selecting on the basis of weight totally makes sense.

I've had more success the other way: gals who categorically reject short dudes tend to pause when I analogize that to categorically rejecting larger women. More often then not, though, they conclude that such categorical rejections are understandable or even acceptable, rather than reconsidering their opposition to short guys.

Not sure what conclusions can be drawn from either of those observations. I'm merely presenting them. :)
11
Well shucks, Eric from Boulder, you know how to make a person feel appreciated. Thank you.
12
I'm a woman who's 5' 10", and my first serious boyfriend was 5' 2". He was my first serious boyfriend because he was smart and funny and read the same books I read and cared about the same things I cared about. When we eventually broke up, it had nothing to do with either of our heights, and we're friends to this day.

Whatever you're passionate about, go to where there are other people who are passionate about that thing, and the chances are that you'll connect with someone.
13
My younger brother and I are the same average-for-a-woman-but-short-for-a-man height (5'5") and let me tell you the dude has never wanted for lady friends. He has had many lovely, pretty, self-confident girlfriends (some taller, some shorter than he is) and has had lots of FWB/hookup type people in his life as well. He is a really cool person with many interests, an openness to learning and talking about lots of things and a way of talking to people that makes them feel at ease and engaged. My advice to the LW and other people who feel that they have impediments to dating is to build their lives and their interpersonal skills to the best of their abilities. Happy, pleasant people who have interesting things to say usually get dates.
14
@2,11: Welcome back, Ms. D. And how _was_ the Amazonian jungle?
15
Back when I dated dudes, I preferred men approximately my height. I loved it when everything lined up when dancing and kissing and making eye contact... I don't recall if letter writer mentioned his age preference, but I would advise him to seek out women of an age to know what's what, just like I would advise a small-breasted (straight) woman to look for men who are old enough to go with their personal taste in champagne glasses rather than the jugs the media (and their peers) tell them they should prefer...
16
Too bad he's not into guys. I really dig short men. :-) I'm short myself (5'7") and when they're smaller than me, I really love it.

I'd also suggest maybe going to talking to a therapist for a bit about how you can be more self confident (without being a douche) and present yourself as a funny, smart, guy. Chicks dig funny smart guys with self confidence.
17
I've known quite a few men who preferred dating short men or having casual encounters with short men. I don't know why that wouldn't also be true of some women. The percentage of the female population who like short men may be fairly small, but the actual number of them has to be pretty large.

The guy who wrote in doesn't tell us much about his own tastes in women, of course, other than that they have to be "slender", however he defines that. His own restrictions may be limiting his search a lot.
18
@7 & 13 - great points. If you're looking for good, fun people to be with, then you will find them in all shapes and sizes. That's been my experience, and I know that if I had decided to categorically reject people based on physical characteristics, I would have missed out on the chance to date some great people (and have some amazing sex).
19
I dated and married a short dude. 5/6. What can I say. He was confident. It's attractive. I also had a thing for tall guys in my early twenties and then said, how stupid was I at 5 feet to only date guys 5/10 and up. I will say this, since you reference "slender." It's unattractive to be overtly shallow (If you are) but then expect the person you are dating to eschew such shallowness. I don't believe one should settle for someone that isn't attractive (to you) by recognize you are limiting your pool of possible mates. For me height wasn't a must have. I like my husband juust fine, but if he was all "no icky fat chicks" it would have been a turn off.
20
Being a short fellow means a rough ride in the dating world. But so is literally every physical deviation from being... I don't know... Tom Hardy. Pretty people have it easier finding romantic partners (and higher incomes). But you also live in America, which is pretty great relative to some other places, and it seems like you have Internet access, which means things must be going okay. You want to overcome being altitude-challenged? Get really goddamn good at something. I mean, look at Danny Strong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Stro…). 'Guy went from being a bit player on Buffy the Vampire Slayer to being a Hollywood impresario. Some people will say "You're compensating." Just say: "Yep, and that's why I drive a Pagani." Get good at something, find a passion, and people will be drawn to you regardless of your height.
21
I wish Below Their League would check in to tell us how the last 5 years have been for him.

I'm surprised Dan didn't suggest a tall butch sex worker. JCIL could get into a relationship with a woman he's not particularly attracted to but has a great deal in common with, tell her that, and enter into an agreement where he gets the sex he wants with a sex worker. She could do the same, have sex with a whatever sort of man appeals to her. She probably wouldn't have to pay for it.
22
@7: Yup. Any time a guy is utterly convinced that *particular feature* is the one and only reason he cannot get laid, he's wrong. His bitterness and defeatist attitude and self-serving assumption about women's shallowness and unwillingness to do any self-improvement because it's all hopeless anyway are why he can't get laid.
23
@20 Tom Hardy himself is a short man standing at 5'7"-5'9" depending on where you look.

I am 5'10" and am a rather confident albeit weird/loud woman sand no matter my weight men will have barely anything to do with me.
24
Dustin Hoffman is 5'4", he has no problem projecting a sexy image.. To those of a certain age.
excuses, excuses.
25
I agree that fixating on one physical feature may be a bad sign, but I'm going to go ahead and weigh in as a short girl. I am a 5'2 very petite woman. Short girls have it easy, we can date any height. I have dated many guys over six feet tall but have found that the physical relationship was much more rewarding with men who were closer to my own height. Sex was better and we could get more creative when not having to accommodate a major height and weight difference. As a result of these experiences I tend to find myself more attracted to shorter guys as I've gotten older and had more sexual experiences. It's not a fettish type thing, it's not that I want to look at short guy porn, it's just a consideration when I think about being compatible with another person. Maybe JCIL is overly objectifying himself?
26
Hernandez @1: 5'9" is not short. It's average.

Originalcinner @7: Agree completely. I am 5'6" and dating a guy who is my height or shorter isn't an issue for me if it isn't an issue for him. I had one ex who was my height, claimed to be two inches taller, and got really grumpy when I dared to wear any sort of heels around him. It was a drag. I agree with Ab1019 @25 about JCIL dating women his height or shorter. There are plenty of them around and it's easier logistically.

Crinoline @21: What a bizarre suggestion. I know what my reaction would be if anyone said they'd like to date me, but not fuck me, because they didn't find me attractive, but they'd be fucking sex workers they did find attractive and I should feel free to do the same. I reckon better advice would be to date one of the many women who *doesn't care* about a man's height. Finding women who prefer 5'2" guys may be tough, but finding women who don't mind is a lot easier.

I'd also like to quibble with DarkHorse @19 for getting dangerously close to condemning any sort of preference as "shallowness." As a small-busted woman, I'm not allowed to have my own preferences in partners? Yes, having preferences narrows one's pool, but they're not generally things we choose to have, and people with unpopular characteristics shouldn't feel they should have to date against their preferences out of gratitude. And I can see why a short guy specifically would prefer slender women, as a large weight difference can be a logistical challenge and I bet a guy JCIL's height doesn't weigh a whole lot.
27
@bidanfan
Can a weight difference pose a challenge? I hadn't noticed.

Since when did slender = fit

Non slender women are perfectly capable of being both physically fit, and excellent lovers despite outweighing their male partners.

There is nothing wrong with having a preference, but there I something wrong with the way the LW chose to announce his preference. He's defensive about it.

Resentful of the BBWs? Why can those fatties get attraction and appreciation when his short miserableself can't.

He sounds like a twat.
28
Clancy @27: I weigh 105lbs, and yes, I HAVE noticed a weight difference can pose a challenge. Try having someone twice your weight collapse on top of you after coming.

Did I say slender equalled fit? Or imply that non slender women can't be sexy and good lovers? I certainly hope not, as I slept with a non slender woman last night and had a great time.

You sound like the one with a chip on your shoulder. No wonder JCIL feels he has to be defensive about a preference.
29
Years ago, a tall friend of mine in college said she could not date shorter men because she "would look like a moose." In other words, it might not be that they are not attracted to short men or don't find them sexually appealing. It may be that they are being self-conscious because society puts them down for "looking masculine" because they are tall. The solution--stand next to someone taller than you.
30
I wonder if the LW is kinky at all, and if so, whether relationships with female tops and dominants hold any appeal? I would've certainly advised BTL (if not JCIL) to check out the kink scene in his search for the lady/ lady arms of his dreams. As a female top who likes to play with both men and women, I'd say there are some definite advantages to topping people of the same weight/height as you or smaller. When it comes to male rope bottoms, for example, I certainly prefer smaller, lighter, more agile guys to towering muscle-bound hunks.

I'm definitely NOT saying that this would be the case for every female rigger/ top/ dom out there, or that finding a compatible dominant woman would be easier than finding a vanilla woman. But in my experience of the kink scene, things like height, body fat, age and conventional good looks tend to be seen as less important when it comes to finding a play partner. So my advice to any single kinky short guys would be to go to your local munch, lead with your engaging personality, talk to all kinds of people (not just female tops), make friends, and drop any expectations/ preconceptions. It could just turn your dating luck around.
31
Man, so much hate for short guys, and none of the sympathy fat women get. I wonder where their vaunted bitterness comes from. My guess? A lifetime of having the rest of us shit on them.

Personally, I think we should start treating women who don't date short dudes the same way we treat men who won't date fat women. If this idea makes you recoil in horror, then you need to rethink your life.

What we're missing here is that both shortness and the bitterness that comes from a lifetime of abuse are signals of weakness, and we have no tolerance for that in men. And maybe we should just lose the habit of hurting people and then shitting on them for acting hurt.
32
And maybe we should just lose the habit of hurting people and then shitting on them for acting hurt.  And maybe we should just lose the habit of hurting people and then shitting on them for acting hurt.  And maybe we should just lose the habit of hurting people and then shitting on them for acting hurt.

Repeated 3 times for truth.
33
26-- Forgive me. I mixed up the letters from Below Their League and Jesus Christ I'm Lonely and a few other things besides. Put another way, I mixed up the advice for finding the right person and being the right person, relationships and sex. Mea culpa. Just scratch that earlier post from the record.
34
#31 nails it.

All this "this guy is just an entitled asshole" is the bullshit patriarchal gender role crap that is the root of the problem.

Maybe men would be more likely to share their feelings if every woman within a ten mile radius did not immediately ridicule him and call him an entitled asshole for having hurt feelings.

Men have to stop shoving gender role crap in women's faces, and women have to stop shoving gender role crap in men's faces. I find it absolutely ludicrous that a guy with a physical shortcoming is an entitled prick for being hurt that women will not date him, but a woman complaining that no man will date her because she is fat is a feminist hero.

And by the way, I also love all the women telling men what their personal; gender experience is. Hypocritical as FUCK.
35
Bi:

I prefer to live in the real world. Note, I differentiated between between preferences and must-haves. I would prefer a six-foot two lean auburn haired doctor with a wicked sense of humor. But, like Dan says, a person must round up. I ended up with a doctor (it's the intelligence not the degree), a wicked sense of humor, but he's built like a tank and short. So what? We have fun in bed. I'm not his ideal either. But we have that indefinable thing called love.

Sure, I could have held out for my preferences, and maybe i'd have found him. And maybe not. But I found some who really works for me and I did it by being willing to date a little outside my venn diagram.

I would never counsel lw to date someone he didn't find attractive or sexual compatible. It wouldn't be fair to either. But I have always been a bit annoyed (and have become more so with age) when people on the edges of *traditional* standard beauty reject others also on the margins and then write complaining that women are shallow. I am (not) sorry fat women have their admirers. Show me a fat female movie star who is considered a sex object. Can name you several big budget male movie stars who are AND are short (daniel craig; Tom cruise leap to mind).

I'd never tell a person to compromise on the emotional character traits. Having someone treat you well is non-negotiable. But if you are going to rail that you aren't getting dates in the pool you are searching, then you will have to widen the pool.

I get it. My husband is short. We met online. He often felt ladies didn't give him a fair shot due to his height (their loss). But my first husband was 6-2 and a douche. I'll take the non-douche.
36
I am sympathetic to lw btw. I don't know if I am swept in as someone hating on short dudes or being unsympathetic. I had to (and did) confront my own biases towards tall men. But I am not Raquel Welch. It would be ridiculous of me to complain that bogart wouldn't date me.
37
I typically go for men within a few inches of my height in either direction. Just feels more compatible to me. The only issue I've run into is with some of the men who are a couple inches taller who don't like me to wear heels. I've never had that problem with guys who are a shorter. I suppose they wouldn't have dated me in the first place if a height differential bothered them. And there is something very sexy about a man who not only isn't bothered by this but even enjoys it. Confidence, I suppose.

38
Catlady. My hub would date women taller. He didn't mind the heels as that put his face right in their breasts. ;)

39
@38 DarkHorse - Haha! I do remember dating a guy a few inches shorter and wearing boots that increased our height differential to 6 inches or so. Never have I received so many "what a cute couple" comments when out and about.
40
As a fellow short dude (5' 6"), I definitely have some sympathy for this guy. And I also recognize that there is a world of difference that those four inches make! You guys, five foot two is really short for a guy. There are plenty of girls exactly my height or maybe an inch or two shorter. But if we assume for the sake of argument that the "natural" dating pool for any man is women his height or shorter, this guy has a total of maybe 10-15% of the female population to choose from. And about half of those women are going to prefer men significantly taller than him. So we're down to about 5-8%.

There's no amount of happy talk that will change the fact: his situation sucks. So does being a dwarf, having vitiligo, or anything else that makes your appearance sexually unattractive to other people. It's not fair, but people really can't do much to change what they're attracted to.

All that said, yeah, he should get out there, do things, and be a happy and interesting person without a chip on his shoulder. What choice does he have? Life ain't fair. Cheer up - it could be worse.
41
JCIL

Take heart. Height is just the beginning of your problems. Women have a long list of traits that you need to have. The good news is that there are so many of them that height, being just one thing, may get lost in the pile. Taller guys don't have it any easier.
42
@40: I don't know that we are just blowing smoke up his butt. He's already well aware its going to be hard. Perhaps hearing that it isn't "impossible" will help him. Its hard not to get caught in a terrible negative loop where one feels rejected as ugly, then develops and ugly chip on their shoulder, which leads to more rejection. Boy, know that circle. But there is a subset of women out there that will date shorter (but its hard for me to find guys shorter - I am 5 feet flat) and will appreciate what he has to offer.

@41: Everyone has their problems, but that isn't fair at all. I met my husband through Snatch. The default for height preference for women was a minimum 5/10. Of course, women could adjust it, but I don't think it happened all that often. I did. My future husband was rejected many times flat out, "you are too short." Just as cutting as "you are too fat." In my case, I adjusted it to 5/6, because I am short anyway.

As to women having a long list of traits.... well, I will put aside whether you are trolling and will state, PEOPLE have a long list of traits they want. Because: People.
43
The LW could always consider looking for love further afield - the dating world doesn't start and end with the US of A. Average height for women in Nepal, Peru and Indonesia is about 4' 10" :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:A…
44
Is there a Reddit out there posting pictures of short dudes and calling them unf*ckable, gross, and disgusting?

Something to think about.
45
@42 DarkHorseRising

I'm not trolling and I'm not taking issue with anyone having standards. Go get what you want. I certainly plan to. But I also plan to be alone indefinitely.

It's just (as a man) kind of mind-blowing to learn the true extent of the problem. Men are picky about how fat and neurotic a woman is. That's the majority of their radar screen. Women seem to have a long list of things that are of more or less equal weight with each other. For JCIL that may be a cause for optimism.
46
@44: Oh, nevermind, I guess if there is not a reddit devoted to it, the issue (and the deeper gender issues underlying it), it must not exist. The LW must be so relieved!
47
Some days I'm especially happy to be a gay lady!
48
@46: Reading comprehension fail. Considering that:

(1) I am married to a short man,

(2) I noted that he suffered a lot of negative static, particularly dating, as a consequence, and

(3) I owned up to facing my own prejudice against short men and dropping that prejudice....

I would be the last person to say that there isn't a dating bias against short men.

I just do not like the trend in this thread to claim that the bias against short men is "worse" than fat women (people, since the womenfolk aren't the only ones) or that men are "shamed" by all of society for not liking fat women.

LW did it himself, complaining that there are these BBW lovers out there, but none for the short guys. On the other hand, as I pointed out, one can be leading men and sex objects nationally and internationally while being short. (My personal favorite sex object right now is Mexican soccer player Guardado at 5/7). In addition, short men aren't being targeted quite as viciously as fat people are, such as Reddit lines devoted to mock and humiliate them as unf*ckable, undesirable, and disgusting (except for references to the Napoleon Complex).

Let me flat out say, so I am not misconstrued, I do not think short men have it easier or harder that the fat man or woman. I think its a fools errand to determine which is "worse." I think its a red herring to drag fatness into it. Both are different sides to the same problem - what do we do with people who fall on the edges of what "society" considers attractive and how should we consider own "preferences" (shallow? reasonable?) in that context?

It is a problem without an answer.
49
@45.

My experience is that men don't have "shorter" lists than women, when it comes to what they want in a spouse or mate, only that they are different.
50
@48: You say my reading comprehension failed, yet nothing you wrote in your response has anything to do with what I said, and you basically just went back on your initial "point" in #44, so I really have no idea how to respond to this comment. You seem defensive.
51
Whelp. So many issues.

5'2" is really short for a man. It means that most women, even those who are not tall, have to be willing to date someone shorter or significantly shorter than themselves.

There is a cultural preference for tall men: we elect tall men to the presidency; we see tall men as more "manly;" we project insecurities onto shorter men they may not even have (Napoleon Bonaparte actually stood 5'7": not tall, but not particularly short today, and in fact taller than the average Frenchman of his time); we have written a cultural script that calls for the man to be taller, preferably significantly taller, than the woman in a straight couple.

*(By the way, this article has a really interesting take on why taller men might earn more, be seen more as leadership material, and it does suggest that it's about confidence as opposed to physical characteristics, but that confidence may not necessarily be able to be assumed after the fact and intentionally, but rather may have to have occurred more naturally and less deliberately during those formative middle- and high-school years.)

It is true that this lw appears to be bitter. He may have all the right in the world to be bitter, based on his experience, but he also lashes out against fat women in a way that seems hypocritical. That makes it hard for many of us, particular us fat women who live in a world of "no fat chicks"/"no fatties" to summon up a lot of sympathy for, not all short men who complain of not being able to date, but him--a man who complains about being undatable based on a physical characteristic while at the same time dismissing his "preference" for/automatic rejection of women with or without a specific physical characteristic. "No Fatties," incidentally, is an answer choice on OkCupid in regard to a question about dating an overweight woman. Significantly, there are several questions on OKC about whether the person would date a "person"who was overweight, but in all of them, the "person" is presumed to be female (there's a question about would you be willing to overlook overweight if the person "had a pretty face," and there's another that asks whether "you would have sex with a person who was overweight but not date them," which seems pretty clearly to assume that the "you" is a straight man and the overweight "person" with the "pretty face" is a straight woman. I have answered over 2500 questions, and have yet to find a corresponding question about whether or not you would have sex with a short person but refuse to date them. ) The baggage about fat women--that they're lazy, that they're stupid, that they are repulsive just to stand near--is pretty extensive. One of the biggest insults our culture has for a woman is to call her fat: Both men and women can show utter contempt for a woman by calling her "fat," or a "cow," or a "fat bitch" or a "fat cow." Those last two represent practically the worst thing it's practically possible to say to a woman to signal her inferiority. "Short" doesn't get slung around as invective in that way.

Okay, so back to more issues this letter raises: a 5'2"man will have significant obstacles to overcome if he's trying to date. He simply will have a harder time. It will help if he doesn't mind if women are much taller than he is, but all the attitude can't come from him alone--he has to be willing to find a woman who doesn't mind (or is even especially attracted to) being with a man who is substantially shorter than she is. This may take time. Of course, he should be confident and not be shy about approaching women who are taller than he, but he has to be prepared that they might not be interested.

As for broadening his tastes (or tall women broadening theirs) versus being "shallow or superficial," well, there's a fine line there, not just for shorter men and taller women, but for all of us in general. We are allowed to want what we want; we are allowed to prefer whom or what we prefer. We often can't help ourselves. You can't force yourself to be attracted because you want to be. It doesn't work that way. What we can all of us do is to be open to new, be receptive to the people we meet, try to shorten our lists of physical "deal breakers" made before even meeting someone. We can go out with someone who has some of what we're looking for, but not all, like DarkHorseRising, so long as what is there or not there isn't absolutely repulsive, and see if our attraction can grow over time. Sometimes it can. Sometimes, no matter how much that person seems absolutely perfect for us in all other ways, the absence of that one physical trait is enough to scuttle the whole relationship.

52
@42: "Is there a Reddit out there posting pictures of short dudes and calling them unf*ckable, gross, and disgusting? "

Yup. It's called Earth. But I'm with you; short guys are worthless. I mean, if the gods had meant for us to treat the LW like a human being, they would have made him taller.

Shockingly, if we shit on a person constantly for his entire life, he will not develop confidence. And then, we can shit on him for not being confident! Short guys are so much fun. And if he complains about being shit on... well, complaining is just as un-manly as being short or lacking confidence, so fire away! Man, not having to treat other people like people is fun. I love being the Gender Role Police. It's great! Let's go find another short guy to beat up.

In more seriousness: See how you--and millions and millions of other people--think "no fatties" is a shitty thing to say, and basically nobody thinks "no shorties" is a shitty thing to say? That. That's what he's talking about. Accusing him of hating fat women is just more shitting on him for not being stoic about it, like a real man is supposed to be, amirite?
53
@44: Oh, nevermind, I guess if there is not a reddit devoted to it, the issue (and the deeper gender issues underlying it), it must not exist. The LW must be so relieved!
Theodore Gorath on December 22, 2015 at 8:57 AM ·

This is what you said. You absolute implied that I must not think being short is an issue for men (oh, LW will be soooo relieved!!!)

And that's a complete characterization of what I said. I never stated or implied that being short wasn't an issue.
54
Yes, Euda, I absolutely said short guys are so absolutely worthless. Here, snip that little tiny bit out and waive it around a lot to reaffirm your psycho view of the world that all women are out to get men and treat them like dog crap... Copy and paste it a million times, because you know, that will absolutely prove you are right.

I'm married to a short man. I blow him nearly daily. I call him Papi and let him spank me and buy him lap dances. He loves the way I abuse short men.

I NEVER SAID SHORT MEN DON'T GET PICKED ON. NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER.

I SAID:

I think its a fools errand to determine which is "worse." I think its a red herring to drag fatness into it. Both are different sides to the same problem - what do we do with people who fall on the edges of what "society" considers attractive and how should we consider own "preferences" (shallow? reasonable?) in that context?

It is a problem without an answer.


I also said:

(3) I owned up to facing my own prejudice against short men and dropping that prejudice...



Don't you dare crucify me on what "the world" did to you. Don't you dare say I ever said it was "Okay" to say "No short people." I am five feet tall and married to a short man. Don't even think it.

I expect you to apologize, but you won't, because Euda is god and he never ever makes a mistake.
55
BTW, Nocute,

As I realize my statements can be taken as implying that I was not physically attracted to my husband. Well height had been a preference for me... just that... a preference. I did not have immediate attraction, seeing him across a parking lot, to my now husband. within three hours, as we laughed and talked and kissed that night, I definitely did. I'd never recommend that LW or anyone else date a fat/short/tall/black/green/asian/redhead (steal souls)/ whatever if it was a turn off. That's cruel to both parties.

Instead, I think that for many people, preferences are not black and white, but grey. I've not always been that attracted to asian men, but Daniel Wu, wow, gets my motor running. I like tall men, but my first husband at 6 2, was quite ugly to me at the end, because of the status of our relationship.
56
Oh, relax, I'm drunk enough that I'm agreeing with you! It's all good. Why not say "no short dudes?" Everyone else does, and you used to too, and I sure as hell do, and let's be honest, that's more fun.
It's cool how you think you can score points by accusing me of being short, though. Kinda undermines what you thought you were saying, huh? It's okay to say "no short dudes;" ask anyone. Seriously. I'm going to go do that right now.

Okay the girl from marketing assures me that yes, it's entirely okay to say "no short dudes." Thanks! The really tall girl she works with says that means not getting laid, but whatever. She's probably just bitter cause she's surrounded by short dudes all the time. Must be terrible.

I wouldn't date either short dudes or fat girls, so I agree with everybody. But yeah it's only safe to say the "no short dudes" one and I get why some short dudes don't like being the one person it's okay to shit on. But look, they're down there, being short. That's just the way gravity works guys.
57
Oh, I also said this:



@41:My future husband was rejected many times flat out, "you are too short." Just as cutting as "you are too fat."



58
Great, Eudaemonic dropped in to shit on the conversation, yet again. I'm out.
59
Well drink some more Euda, maybe you will make some kind of sense eventually.

Oh wait, now you are going to accuse me of calling you a drunk right? "How dare you call me a drunk!" Even though you are the one who said, "I'm drinking"

You are the one who started screaming about how the world just shits all over short guys (but never ever fat chicks right? oh no, fat chicks are the special chosen class) ....

but if I say "don't crucify me for what the world did to you!"

Bahboom!

I'm calling you SHORT! Yes, that's it, I'm insulting you by calling you short!

Euda must find some way, some way to twist my words, even when I never called him short, to prove that I really hate short men and shit over them, because Euda MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST be absolutely 110% right. Euda, drunk or sober, is never ever wrong.

Drink!

Or are you just super sad I won't get down on my knees and suck your dick but I'll do it for a short man.
60
...uh, so getting back to JCIL....
61
Not that I object to drinking and dick sucking etc.
62
@58. Pretty much. I'm about ready to give up on this place. Although I might simply resort to "You are just super sad I won't get down on my knees and suck your dick but I'll do it for a short man." as my one and only response to Euda ever.
63
Nope sorry I'm not interested, I'm not that drunk. Not too drunk to notice you keep trying to pretend he said something else, when he said fat women get at least some sympathy and short guys don't and you claimed this wasn't true and then admitted you know it is.

But I'm agreeing with you! Being the gender role police is fun even if I don't get drunk enough to date them any more. Let's go back to shitting on a short guy for complaining about how we shit on short guys while we say nobody should shit on fat girls. Fuck him for noticing that we're huge hypocrites, it takes half the fun out of hypocrisy.

How bout we compromise by shitting on both? I'm in. Why not?
64
@60/61.

Seriously, I think DS's advice is all there is to it.

Drink....
65
@Euda:

You are just super sad I won't get down on my knees and suck your dick but I'll do it for a short man.
66
Btw, it's also possible that someone meet the baseline criteria and s/he is still not attractive to someone else. For instance, just because I have a (hypothetical) preference for, say, long-waisted, red-headed men, it doesn't follow that I will be attracted to any or every long-waisted, red-headed man.
There are a lot of attributes and qualities that factor into attraction and type preference is just one of them. You can find someone who meets your physical ideal and still not be attracted to her/him because s/he is an awful person, or a snob, or a habitual liar, or have horrible breath, or fill-in-the-blank and that negates the advantage conferred by her/his meeting the "physical type" requirement on the checklist. It is even possible that there is no discernible reason for being either attracted to or not attracted to someone. Blame it on pheromones.

DarkHorseRising, I didn't mean to imply that you were not attracted to your husband; I meant to suggest that he didn't meet one of your initial qualifiers, but you gave him a chance and went out with him, only to discover that indeed you are attracted to him.
67
@66. Exactly.
68
DHR, it's cute how you think accusing someone of not getting enough sex is a good put down. Keeping that Gender Role Police badge nice and shiny.

Hope you're getting a lot of mileage out of insisting I'd let you anywhere near my dick though. Nice rape culture.
69
This whole thread (minus the fight that Eudaemonic and DarkHorseRising are having) is just cutting way too close to the bone now, and I'm going to vacate it. I hope that in the past year JCIL found some happiness, either by finding more women, or a special woman to date, or just in himself. I hope all people short and tall, thin and fat, nice and assholes, find happiness in themselves and with others in the coming year and always.

Peace On Earth; Goodwill To Humanity and all that.
70
@66: "You can find someone who meets your physical ideal and still not be attracted to her/him because s/he is an awful person..."

This always seemed like a superpower. Bet a lot of us wish they'd had that one earlier in life.
71
Well, Christmas Cheer Is Here.
Despite presenting as a six foot woman , I am 5'2", and there isn't an Only in there. And I never wear heels. Yes I'm a woman and for some cultural reason that's different.
After we had this letter last xmas, I really started noticing how Aussie men seem to be in the 5' 7" - 5'10" range. None of them seem to walk with a My God I'm Short tag around their necks. Or a My God I'm a Little Fat,
Or My God I'm Not Handsome tags either.
Forget about it LW. Develop your body well, enjoy it and take the tag off.



72
Robert Downey Jr. and Tom Cruise: 5'7"
Jack Black: 5'6"
Daniel Radcliffe, Dustin Hoffman and Bruno Mars: 5'5"
Michael J. Fox: 5'4"
Danny DeVito: 5'0"

Sure, it doesn't hurt to be rich and famous, but the point is, they didn't let short stature hold them back...they weren't always rich and famous.
73
I am SO into short men, but after they get over the cultural bullshit around around being short. I am attracted to short guys in general, but I am SERIOUSLY attracted to the personality traits that comes out of that growth journey when a short guy finds self acceptance and is comfortable in his own skin 💗💋
74
@72: Downey does come from a famous family, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Dow….
75
STS,love the lipstick emoji. How come I don't have one of those in my iPhone, just cats, houses, etc I want lips.
Lipstick covered lips.
76
Who the 'eff cares about height when the list also includes: employed, non-addicted, kind, and capable of intimacy.
77
@76. Yes, there you go. The List has many items.
As one gets older, the list gets shorter.
78
I always find the advice to men to 'just be confident' to be such baffling bullshit. I can appear relatively confident, and as a dom I can 'turn on' that act pretty well in the scene. Inside I am still the 13 year old getting spit on by the popular girls, and probably always will be. But I can do that act because I was a theatre nerd, most low-status men (and I assume women) who have been shit upon by their peers and society in general their whole life have zero capability of just pretending to be confident while they swim in a sea of self loathing that has been thrust upon them. Telling them to 'act confident' is the advice equivalent of telling a person working at Wendys to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and become a millionaire or telling a soldier with PTSD to 'act brave' when they have a flashback.
79
I can't speak as a short man, or to the short man's experience. I don't know if women whom "the short man" asks out turn him down citing his height as the reason for their rejection; I don't know if people approach him unsolicited to tell him they can't date him or could never love him because he is short.

I am a fat woman. I'm not Tess Holliday level fat; I'm not even necessarily BBW level fat (depending on how one defines BBW: I see women who are probably a size 12 to a size 30 represented, but I think the more common description is a bigger woman than I am). I'm 5'6" and wear between a size 16 and 18. The average American woman is considered to be either 5'4" and 140 lbs or wear between a size 12 and 14, according to the information I can find on the interwebz, but there's a lot of latitude there--140 lbs, for example, look very different even on a variety of 5'4" women, depending on their individual configurations and there's really no standard in clothing sizes. Bottom line, I'm definitely fat, but not necessary grotesquely so or even all that notably so.

I am also kind, smart, funny, thoughtful, interesting, interested in the world around me, as ggg as it gets barring poop, animals, children, and dead people, well-read, very sexual, slightly kinky, generous, loyal, and if not beautiful, pretty enough to fall within the norm.

On the dating market, none of those things cancel out my fat. None of them. My appeal is limited to a very small number of men who "don't mind" or "look past" my apparently disgusting mass. I don't appeal to fat fetishists, generally, because I'm not fat enough for them! (Which is fine, because I have no interest in attracting the attention of a man who fetishizes me for my weight.) I have had men approach me on dating websites, they approach me keep in mind, to tell me that if only I were slender, they would want to date me. I have had men approach me on dating websites who clearly didn't look at all my photos (I deliberately post a few whole body shots as well as recent photos that clearly show all my 53-year-old wrinkles) or didn't read the part where I accurately described my body type. When I look at their profile, I often see that they've said that someone who is "even a little overweight" is unacceptable to them--sometimes they have even answered other questions about women's weight using the "no fatties" choice. If I gently point out that I'm not the body type they are interested in or attracted to, they either disappear--preferable--or come back to tell me that oh, wow, they hadn't noticed! Too bad! Why is it that all the full figured women have the best profiles lol? Or they tell me that maybe their interest will motivate me to lose weight. I am not making any of this up. I couldn't if I tried.

When I was 19, and the slimmest I have ever been in my adult life once I developed breasts (I wore a junior size 7 then, but women's sizing in general and the way sizes have shifted in the last 20 or so years make it hard to give a sense of what that looks like), I was told by a guy at the end of a blind date that I was too fat for him to want to date but that "we could still have sex if you want." I don't remember what I stammered in response. I wish I could report that I gave him a piece of my mind but I think I just mumbled something non-committal and slunk away. I was the one who felt ashamed, even though he was the one who should have been.

I just ended a 10-monthlong relationship with a man I fell in love with who never loved me back. He couldn't love me, it turns out, because he doesn't feel sexually attracted enough to me (despite the fact that we had amazing sex) because I am not slim and he is only attracted to slim women. He knew going in I wasn't his physical type, yet he approached me because of all my other qualities. He tried to challenge himself to get over his preference, feeling shallow, conceding me all my wonderful qualities. He admits that I'm the best thing that has happened to him in well over a decade. And yet I'm too fat to love. He wanted us to stay together despite the fact that we have, as he put it, an "emotional imbalance" (i.e. I am attracted to him and love him and he isn't sufficiently attracted to me to be able to love me).

I defy any short man to have had that kind of humiliation and rejection as a regular part of his life.
80
Checking in from 5'7, here. I've never felt like I had to go through some transcendent journey vis a vis cultural expectation, but...
The whole thing about 'women want tall guys' and 'men want slim women' is, to me, a restating of what individuals feel that they deserve in a relationship. People who really took this too far, whether they're male or female, tend to stick in our memories, but it's just not something one gender does more than the other.
I mean, everyone, at any time, has A List, even if it's just 'oposable thumbs, walks upright, relatively pleasant.' IMO, people who were coddled and fawned over at an early age tend to be worse as far as carrying unrealistic expectations into their 20's and beyond goes, but most people get more flexible with age.
I don't agree with Dan that 'age makes ruins of us all:' using Jan-Michael Vincent and Peter Frampton as examples on last week's podcast was pretty disingenuous, like saying MC Hammer/Mike Tyson show that no matter how much money you make, you'll end up bankrupt, inevitably. Kind of beside the point, but I just re-listened to the podcast, had it on my mind.
I've previously mentioned my theory that we're all our own Compagnon chef 'ouevre, the sum of what we've made of our lives/what fate had in store for us, but unlike gold or whatever that has a set trading price, we're worth as much or as little, relationship-wise, to each individual other person, as they think. I'm quite sure I've been pre-emptively rejected d/t my height, but, like my eye color, it's outside my control, never thought to fuss over it.
81
I am a married, straight, 5'1" guy, and I feel JCIL's pain. There are so many women, even shorter women, who don't want to date a short guy. So here's my advice from the other side. Cast a wide net. Sign up for several dating sites. Write coherent, thoughtful notes to the people you find interesting and attractive. I would fail 90% of the time or more, but I still dated a lot, eventually meeting my wife, who is a beautiful, intelligent woman. She is an inch or two shorter than I am. Also, try to get some objective advice from women you respect or consider changing your look a bit. Based on the reaction after I shaved it, I think my facial hair was as big a problem as my height and thinning hair. Finally, don't be afraid to stick around even if the initial reaction from someone you like is lukewarm. Sometimes, women need to get used to the idea of dating someone as short as us. Good luck my brother.
82
I am sorry that you have had such a bad experience recently @nocutename. No one ever wants to be dumped, especially in such a weird and cruel way.
I would suggest reconsidering your preconceptions a little though. Personally, I am attracted to mildly plump/curvy/overweight women and like BBW porn, but it does not feel particularly fetishistic, it's just what I like. I have had successful relationships with women of many sizes but ended up with a bigger girl than is fashionable who I married and am very happy with. I have heard of larger women avoiding people like me because they don't want to be 'fetishized' for their weight, but that feels very self-defeating. Yeah, don't date a guy who treats you like a piece of meat (all the time, not just in the bedroom when you might want to be a piece of meat) but don't assume that every dude whose dick gets hard to big ladies is a creep who is incapable of recognizing your humanity.
83
@79. First, hugs. I am so sorry. Second, if my feuding with euda lanced or enhanced this pain, I apologize vociferously for it. Third, I am boxy, not slender, even when I've been skinny. I've had similar experiences. I am not a short man. I will say from what I've heard from my husband, well... he had some ugly experiences of being rejected for years over his height. One experience swore he off dating for several years. I'd bet it's similar.

None of this is to take away from your experience or to minimize it.

People are cruel, sweet god. I cannot believe what your ex boyfriend did. How unbelievably cruel. Sending loving kindness.
84
Yeah dr. Jones. My dad has a thing for slender women. I don't mean skinny, I mean women with a Gracile from - fine bones, narrow shoulders - long and lanky. I am not, no matter how thin I get, and I have been. One of my great angers at him is that he made sure I felt undesirable when there are many men who like what I have.
85
I do think the fact that letter writer is 5'2", significantly outside of a range that is considered typical, is an obstacle that goes beyond women typically preferring men taller than themselves and men typically preferring women shorter than themselves. I think it is probably similar to being a woman greater than 6 feet tall in terms of limiting dating prospects.

I'm about the height of an average man and all the men I've loved and the couple I've married have been slightly shorter than I am. None of us had a problem with this. But a groomsman at one of my weddings called me selfish for wearing 2" heels because it made me 3" taller than the groom who told him repeatedly that it made no difference to him.

@79 nocute - I'm so sorry to hear of your recent experience.
86
My advice is even simpler: don't do online dating (or if you do, de-prioritize it compared to other things). All dating sites (*ALL* of them) have far more active male profiles than female ones and women have to use filters just to make things workable for themselves. You will never get a fair shake in this environment; you will be filtered out right away by women who, if they met you in real life, might give you a chance to impress them with your other positive traits.
Finally, get married when you find the right one. I'm so relieved to not have to deal with dating anymore.

5'4, married w/ 2 kids
87
I'm a 5'0" woman, and I used to date a dude who was 5'2". Here are some useful things we learned:
- Maintain excellent posture.
- Learn skills that give short people an advantage, or that show off a low center of balance, such as rock climbing, aerials, acro-balance, fire-spinning, etc. Skill is sexy, plus you get used to your body as a thing that lets you do extra cool stuff instead of something that holds you back.
- For a big height differential: date in chairs, kiss on stairs.
- Dress well. While we're at it, be smart and kind and curious.
- Use lifts in your shoes if you want them.
- Stay fit and trim if you can. Short dude with muscled shoulders = the hottest!
Good luck.
88
Cosign on Everything SpaceGirl said, except wearing lifts. Like bra padding, gonna come off sooner or later, don’t be living a lie, yo. Do you really want to raid the fridge naked at 2:00 Am, and tell her coming back to bed, hey, dollface, don’t adjust your screen, I am this tall?
89
So I've heard that a solid majority of women prefer taller men, but there are those that don't care. I am 5'6 and have never minded if a guy is shorter than me. Maybe that is because my father and brother are both 5'4. But it's always seemed fine to me.
Maybe you'll run into a lady like me. We do exist.
90
My ex is short. Women fall all over him. Not on websites, to be sure, but he's good looking, charming, generous, sexy, you name it, if you don't mind that he doesn't let work interfere with his drinking. Short guy, you're doing it wrong.
91
@78, drjones.
There is a distinction between acting confident and being confident, being in oneself.
92
As a fellow short man (5'4"), I have one non-obvious piece of advice for JCIL: wear well fitting clothes. Sure, Dan's right that short men need to try harder in all areas. Be fit, be confident, be high-status. But also, spend extra time shopping, be prepared to spend more, and make friends with your tailor. Or learn to use a sewing machine and do alterations yourself (I do). I alter virtually everything I buy. I have to for them to look good. I hem t-shirt to shorten them, I dart my dress shirts, I take in the legs of my pants so they're less baggy. When you're short, finding clothes that fit is a bitch, but, believe me, it makes a world of difference.
93
DollFace CatB @ 88? Use that name only if you're a gangster.
94
Well shorty, you could try expanding your horizons. If you're short, it may limit your dating pool. Preferring slender women when most women are not is going to limit it even more. So you may have to do a bit of settling. I'm about 4'11"; when I was younger, I would have been happy for a shorter guy(in the 5'6" to 5'9" range), but I'm now dating a guy about a foot taller than I am. Try being an exceptionally petite, plump woman. You don't fit in anywhere.
95
Nocute @79. What a piece of work that guy turned out to be? Fuck him.
If you are 5'6", and wear 16-18. I'm 5'2"" and wear 14-16( goes down in summer).. Wtf are you doing calling yourself fat.
Curvy is the word. Cmon down to Oz. If the men here spoke to women like these guys have to you, swift kick to the balls is what they'd get.
96
Oh nocutename, that’s horrible. I am so sorry.
97
I'm ready to Gender Police. Just flash the JH spotlight and I'll beam down. I'll do it better this time. Promise :)
98
Nocute @ 79: My preferred body type would be deemed "overweight". I'm not into BBW, but like enough curve that most TV personalities are unattractive to me. My wife is precisely my ideal body shape, and while she worries about her size, I think her sexy and adorable. So take heart: guys into large-but-not-huge girls are out there.

A thought: have you been limiting yourself to white guys? IME, minority dudes like me tend to like a fuller figure. It's a stereotype for a reason!
99
Thanks for the kind words, everyone. I wasn't trying to get sympathy; I was just following through on the "fat women don't have it as bad as short men do" line, and my wound is quite fresh.
drjones and I Hate Screen Names, I don't limit myself. I am honestly open to every and anyone, but he has to be intelligent, somewhere in my age range and within a 50 mile radius, and we have to click. And yes, I ask men out or initiate conversations.

I haven't had a date that didn't originate in the online world in years. Perhaps that's not ideal, but these are the times we live in. I'm 53, fat, poor, with a kid still living at home part time (joint custody)--I apparently am not much of a catch. I've had the same job for over 15 years, and I haven't come into contact with more than 2 unattached straight men at work. Even if they were interested in me or me them (nope), it would be a bad idea to date someone I work with. I already participate in a bunch of activities that interest me. All seem to have fixed attendees (my book group, a few volunteer groups), with no single men being among them. Most of my friends are couples, straight and gay, and some are single women, straight and gay. I haven't been to a party in over 2 decades that has a single single man in attendance. I let everyone I know know that I am amenable to being set up. Everyone claims not to know any decent single men. I've dated men of all different heights, by the way, with the shortest (a high-school-era boyfriend being 5'3", and the tallest being 6'6"--I got a crimp in my neck looking up at him while we had a conversation). I'm white, but have dated black and Indian men. There is no race or ethnic group I rule out automatically. I don't care about how much hair a man has or what kind of car he drives. The most recent boyfriend--the guy who broke my heart, was unemployed and in many ways was far from anyone's ideal.

I would be absolutely thrilled if a non-attached man thought I was what he wanted. I have a few FWBs who seem to find me attractive enough, but they're married or poly.
100
Please nocute, don't think of yourself like that. Obviously dating sites allow this sort of meat market mentality to occur..
" Oh, I'll have the 36" Breast, might try a couple of shapely legs and taut arse while I'm at it."
Don't let this mentality define you.
Do you walk much? I find lots of walking very beneficial for everything. Musing about life and keeping my arse from dropping.