About Those Armed Militia Members/Terrorists Who Seized a Federal Building in Rural Oregon

Comments

1
What else do you expect when you let domestic terrorism go unchecked?!
2
There is currently no law enforced perimeter of this illegally occupied public facility. The militants are free to come and go--to the grocery, the post office, the coffee shop . . . with their guns.
3
Well written, Dan. Imagine the public reaction if a group of armed black men had taken over a federal building to protest the police shootings, or if a bunch of Middle-Eastern looking fellows (all sporting scary BEARDS in addition to guns!) seized a government office to protest racial profiling. These so-called "militiamen" in Oregon are committing a terrorist act of sedition, and they need to be brought down and punished for it. (Amazingly, they are given a pass on the beards, too.)
4
2 things explain the Feds reluctance to call the Bundy's bluff(s):
1. Ruby Ridge
2. Waco

Essentially, they want a violent confrontation. They want martyrs, and the Feds are smart enough not to give them what they want.
5
They should have taken the compound and thrown the book at every one of the bastards. Make an example of those traitors.
Remember, it was a pair of Cliven Bundy supporters who murdered those cops in Las Vegas. These people really shouldn't be trusted with firearms.
6
Of course they were treated w/ kid gloves. What color are the Militia members and think about what would happen to an armed black militia that stormed a government building vis-à-vis a police/national guard response?
7
Also relevant in both the Tamir Rice and John Crawford III cases: Ohio is, according to this map drawn up from Google searches on the n-word, the most racist state in the entire country.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk…
8
i am seriously torn between my desire to see this end peacefully, and an even stronger desire to see these white-supremacist, anti-government zealots (anarchists?) used as an object lesson to the rest of their ilk.

Part of me wants to see them blown so far to hell by Apache helicopters that there isn't more to bury than a bloodstain. That is, of course, if they won't peacefully surrender after being asked nicely while the Apache helicopters' cannons are pointed at them.

Since when do we allow armed insurrections against the country to stand?

Earlier in my life, peaceful antiwar demonstrators were being violently attacked by right-wing mobs while the police egged them on.

What we're witnessing, I fear, is the beginnings of a right-wing, fascist uprising and it needed to be killed in the crib. Having missed that opportunity, at least in the playpen. My belief in antiviolence will not extend to letting these violent yahoos trample down the rule of law. Left to its inevitable conclusion, we can kiss our individual liberties and safety goodbye, their bullshit rhetoric to the contrary notwithstanding.

Fuck 'em up, big time, and do it now.
9
Not quite sure how relavent this is but apparently BLM is giving those ranchers a real deal.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-…
10
Maybe the media should take a more active role in covering the selective and racist enforcement of the law by authorities. I mean instead of just reblogging shit.
11
I think Our Dear Max pretty much nailed it. Ruby Ridge/Waco lead to the Oklahoma City Federal Building bombing. The feds don't want a repeat of that. Add to the that the fact that there's a lot more crazies in the inland west than there are federal agents, and there's already a tense relationship there.

Also, it's important to understand that there is a rather big difference between local cops and federal law enforcement.
12
Why does everyone have to be so PC about this? Let's just call it what it is: Mormon terrorism!
14
Wow Dan, fueling the fire much? Imagine if white cops ran up on the protesters and found that they were black? Is their reaction different? Black panthers in Texas carried automatic weapons at their protest this year while threating to kill cops and there was no action taken. Why? Because there was no public threat. If the cops pulled their guns out and arrested people who threatened cops many of our local protests would be a lot different. I'm not saying that these people are not crazy, but are they crazier than far left anarchists who never seam to be prosecuted? When it comes to protesters the cops seam to do very little no matter who you are.
15
@13, Actually, the Bundys and their ilk are a bunch of socialist moochers, getting fat off the government teat. They took up arms because they were too lazy to pay rent for the land they used.

Also, the Hammonds, the arsonists who started all this crap, were a bunch of child abusers as well.
16
It would be a darn shame if they somehow got a giant batch of sugar free Gummie Bears to help them with their siege...
18
So underneath the SARCASTIC comments about white terrorists, "y'all qaeda" ( <----<<<< that's a joke you know), who would be shot if they weren't white is the actual belief that EVERYBODY deserves white privilege. Everybody deserves to be left to have their public tantrum without violent reprisal if they aren't putting anybody else in immediate danger. This doesn't need to be said but there are no liberals who ACTUALLY THINK white 12 year olds with toy guns should be gunned down too. The point of the snarky memes is the OPPOSITE. Hence snark.

Everybody acting a little crazy, breaking a tax regulation or some traffic law or crossing a line in the sand, deserves to not be shot. White privilege for all.

You know the reason liberals want to spend your fucking tax dollars teaching English lit in High School instead of just job skills and abstinence only horseshit is so that you dumb fuckers can learn to catch the SUBTEXT just once in a very long while.
20
@13, and according to dipshits like you, people who break laws, resist arrest, and threaten law enforcement officers deserve to be shot. Unless of course they're white, as with this case.
21
Some other occupations in American history: Wounded Knee 1973. Alcatraz 1971, Fort Lawton (Discovery Park) 1970....
22
Here in Seattle, we had (in addition to Fort Lawton) the occupation of Beacon Hill Elementary, which resulted in El Centro de la Raza, and the occupation of the Coleman School (which is now the NWAAM, although the people who did the occupation are not the same people who created the museum)
23
Here's an idea I've seen and like: Shut off all power, electric, water, everything. Blockade those motherfuckers in. They're already whining about not having enough food. They can surrender peacefully and go to prison or they can starve (or freeze) to death.

I also read about some guy who wanted to go protest, but his disability check (from the federal government he claims to hate) hadn't come in. So make sure these people are also barred from claiming any federal benefits ever again since they hate the government so much.

And 1998 to 2014 is sixteen years, not six.
24
The 'militants' are now saying they'll leave if the locals ask them to leave. (Translation: "Burns . . . especially in winter . . . BLOWS.") http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2…
25
How often has the Obama administration been accused erroneously of looking or acting weak? Well, this time's the real deal. The feds come across as absolutely impotent in response to these clowns. No reason for the militia radicals to rest on their laurels either. They might as well be making plans to "take back" Grand Teton, or maybe just all of Yellowstone. There's no one to stop them.
26
Have to agree with Dan on this.
27
Or, alternatively, when cops are outnumbered, they don't shoot anyone. It's only when *one* black kid pulls a toy gun on the cops when he gets shot. The whole county surrounding this federal Park doesn't have more than 3 cops, I'd bet.

Clearly, Black Lives Matter needs to start occupying urban parks with enough firearms to outnumber the city cops. Then there'd be progress. Yallqueda is doing heir best to set a legal precedent for getting real action.
28
@23 that assumes that they didn't bring a $500 generator with them, and that there aren't any deer or ducks to shoot in the bird sanctuary/nature preserve.

Both are wrong assumptions.

However, at the same time, a couple of tanks could sort this situation out. These dumbfucks need to realize that if they're going to "protect their freedoms from tyranny" with the second amendment, they're going to need *much* bigger guns than a few assault rifles. But they *really* didn't think that far ahead.
29
Thanks #12 for being the SECOND person to notice the Mormon connection. One of the gunmen actually called himself 'Captain Moroni' to a reporter for Daily Beast...and the reporter failed to comment on the meaning!

Same article added another reason for the Feds cringing away from Bundy back in '14. The gangsters claim that they had two or three snipers targeting EACH law enforcement officer. Supposedly guaranteeing multiple deaths the instant the cops got serious.
30
Aren't random burnings and raising cattle on public lands inalienable rights guaranteed by the second amendment to Leviticus?
31
They are not terrorists, they are traitors. At best, they are insurrectionists. Federal laws dealing with traitors and insurrectionists are much harsher than the ones dealing with terrorists. They should be used.
32
Further down the TPM article:

"As one Facebook commenter on one of our original stories put it with admirable understatement, the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge visitors' center is 'probably one of the least critical spots to occupy in all of the United States.' The whole stunt has all the hallmarks of what the rightwing extremist movie would play like if it were produced by the guys who made Best in Show or Waiting for Guffman."

Now all I want is for this movie to happen.
33
@32: Maybe that's actually what's happening. :O
34
Gee whiz, I wonder why cops would be more ready to go in guns blazing when it's one guy that might have a pistol. VS a whole bunch of well armed dudes that already have a bunch more heavily armed ass hats pledging support.

These guys are ready to become a US version of IS, they want to be attacked.

This blithe talk of sending in tanks and attack choppers...

...I'm picturing some historian writing about this moment, arguing that it is the defining moment when the US empire began its collapse.

So maybe a slow gentle fizzle would be a better ending.

And btw, armed black panthers stormed the capitol of California a few years back, and didn't get slaughtered. Though it did prompt the notoriously socialist governor we had at that time to pass some tough gun control in an attempt to really stick it to those conservative gun nuts.
35
I am in strange accord with one aspect of the militant's stated grievances: minimum sentencing. I find minimum sentencing laws abhorrent, and feel common cause with these Bundy-nutters on abolishing federal minimum sentencing laws, should they find common ground with me. Perhaps we could take it further and work to establish Federal Maximum Sentencing laws for non-violent drug 'usage', 'possession' and 'possession with intent' convictions. Who knows what more we could do?!
36
Always a great laugh when the people around here get incredibly bloodthirsty when something like this happens.

Hell, why stop at Apache helicopters and tanks? Why not just firebomb the whole complex? Or I know, just drop a nuke on all of Oregon, that would solve the problem.
37
@35 The Bundy-Nutters love minimum mandatory sentences, so long as they are imposed on black people.
38
These idiots are alive because they're white. Which isn't to say that they should be killed; they need to be put in jail for a good long time.
39
@36, A drone strike would be fitting, if not for the collateral damage it would cause to government property while cleaning up the trash.
40
I hope this can be ended non-violently. A good start would be to ring their camp and put them under siege. See how long they hold out without fresh provisions. I give them a week before they surrender. At that point, put the fuckers on trial for the huge list of crimes they've committed.

That said, if they come out non peacefully they get what they asked for.
41
Beavercreek, not Beaverton.

It would be satisfying to respond violently to them, but that's really what they want (they are too stupid to understand the value of even their own lives.) They should be mocked, a lot, in pulp culture and otherwise. As the NPR link above demonstrates they are already looking for a face saving way to leave. A good plan might be for the Feds to cook up free bar-b-que upwind of them and video them getting free hand outs. Maybe some hacker could show how much porn they are downloading. Or, let them resupply anything but toilet paper. The possibilities are endless.
42
@36- I don't see very many bloodthirsty comments. I see a lot of "here's a prime example of unequal treatment." comments.
43
@36, see @18 please.
44
@42, 43: Did it ever occur that perhaps my comment was not literally saying "everyone here wants a bloodbath?" Stop knee jerking and think for a moment.
45
@44, You should consider directly call out the people you think are being bloodthirsty hypocrites or whatever, rather than making general, dismissive comments that make it sound like you think "the people around here" want the government to start killing people. That way people will actually understand your intent in the first place and you don't have to get super defensive about it. Just a suggestion.
46
@44- Did it ever occur to people that calling responses "blood thirsty" when none of them call for blood makes you look like an asshole?

Because it does.
47
BTW, I am in love with David Bowie all over again (see article below).
48
Max @4, If they want to be martyrs, I'm pretty much cool with the feds obliging them. Not that the FBI should try to kill every person involved, but they should use as much deadly force as is needed to apprehend all living members of this terrorist group without unduly risking the lives of law-enforcement personnel. If nobody died, that would be ideal. If every single one of them was killed, I'd be OK with that.

I'm so white I'm practically transparent, but I'm deeply offended by this extreme example of white privilege. We should be a better country than to let people get away with this just because they don't have scary Arab-sounding names or scary dark skin. This is serious bullshit.
49
Seriously, violence isn't necessary to apprehend these yaboo's. Instead, just back a 40' tractor-trailor up to the site, open the doors and set a sign next to it stating in bold letters, "UNLICENSED GUN SHOW INSIDE!" It'll have the same effect as tapping out "Shave And A Haircut" does to a Toon.
50
@41: I like your thinking.
51
@48: that's not going to happen. Ruby Ridge + Waco = OK city Federal building. you don't give them an excuse.

Malheur WR HQ is so far out in the boonies (Google Map it) that the Feds just need to shut off the power (to the news crews, too) and wait it out. I bet they haven't even blocked off the road, though I'd be pleased to see that.
52
Well, in a calmer mood, I need to "clarify" what I said earlier @48. I imagine these cowards would surrender pretty quickly if confronted with actual armed force, so I would expect that the outcome of the actions I suggested would be my ideal one in which nobody got killed. But I still do resent the inaction.

Cliven Bundy and his spawn are thieves and thugs. They should be captured promptly and put on trial. If any of their supporters are dumb or drunk enough to resist, I'm still OK with those supporters being martyrs to the cause of stupidity.

Some here make good points about non-violent responses the American Indian activist takeover of Alcatraz and demonstrations of armed Black Panthers. Those facts do undercut the white privilege narrative, but I'm pretty sure I would have supported retaking Alcatraz forcibly using the minimum amount of deadly force required to accomplish the capture of the island.

I do not think anyone, white or otherwise, should be allowed to violently seize federal property and chase away law enforcement with guns just because they are part of a large group when they do it or claim a non-Islamist political motivation.
53
Max @48, Is the lesson of Ruby Ridge and Waco really that enforcing the law against large groups of armed imbeciles inevitably leads to domestic terrorist attacks on federal buildings? Is the right answer therefore to let Cliven Bundy go on stealing for another couple of decades?

Is your reasoning a bit like the fear of military action in the decades following the Vietnam War, even in totally different circumstances?

Of course, given the dissatisfaction many had with the decision not to take Baghdad in the Gulf War, the unimpressive current status in Afghanistan, and the mess we stirred up in Iraq, perhaps we'd all be better off if the U.S. had never unlearned the lesson of Vietnam.

I personally would submit that the Gulf War was justified, but not necessary, and it's outcome was decent and that the invasion of Afghanistan was justified and necessary, but deprived of resources by the pointless second invasion of Iraq, but I can certainly understand those who think it would be better if the U.S. was still afraid to use its military anywhere bigger than Grenada.
54
people sure do love to eat. and the govt takes such good care of people. ask all the homeless vets the war machine used up and threw in the garbage.
55
Waco - Ruby Ridge.. It's not really a race issue. It's an issue of Barny Fife policing versus Andy Griffith/Sheriff Clarke policing. Seattle politicians passed a jaywalking law that disproportionately affect lower income people. The police culture would be better served if a patrol car always had two police in it, cheap video streaming on, and rotated partners weekly. But that costs too much for politicians and for taxpayers. Police training should not be shoot first ask questions later. I can police better than that. I don't need any type of policeman in my employment who can't understand that. And we need to stop turning misdemeanors into felonies just to make an arrest and get a conviction.
56
Cliven Bundy may be wrong but he was also extorted by the government and placed in an impossible situation.
57
I cannot believe the RHETORIC I'm reading here.Nobody has been hurt.The boys will get bored and go home.Your talk is REAL cheap.
58
http://usuncut.com/resistance/dann-siste…

Like the Bundys, the Dann sisters tried a standoff with the BLM. But it ended very differently.

everybodies acting like the govt is not a problem especially when they use strong arm tactics against people. but when people use the same tactics in response to an out of control govt suddenly they're 'terrorists'