Savage Love Letter of the Day: The Crying Game

Comments

101
This sounds just like my abusive, cheating ex (minus the baby kink). He really ramped it up (creating new demands, insisting I couldn't fulfil his needs, knocking me around) once we had three children under the age of 4. I stuck it out for 6 more years... I would not advise she do the same.
102
Add me to the DTMFA crowd. What an abusive shit weasel! Threatens suicide if he doesn't get his own way and then threatens divorce when that's not enough? What a prick! MOMMY, it's time for an abortion and alimony and childsupport. Call a lawyer and change the locks. Staying with this loser another second is taking GGG waaaaaay to far!
103
Just wanted to add my voice to the chorus. He's a selfish asshole, dump him.

Who cares if you have three kids and no social life for three years? You'll be free of your fourth baby, and be able to focus more on your own needs in time. With this trash hanging from your skirts, you won't have a moment's peace or rest.

Get out, get out, get out. Fast.
104
@93SA; Dur.. I realize washing nappies isn't her issue, at the moment.
I'm just appealing to her pragmatic side, you know the one that will be still standing when NappyBoy has taken his spanking and his pretend
mommy-licking( yuk)wants elsewhere.
They have been together how long? And if she hasn't been on board with his kinks, and he is so desperate to have them fulfilled.. You don't think he might have noticed by now? There's the moron.
The narcissist is him making a big fucking scene about it when they have a small child. The nasty little twerp is so there is no doubt in how I feel about people who take the focus off the child, when he/she need the attention, and onto themselves.
105
To those of you debating whether the LW was thoroughly honest in her writing, the bottom line is this: whatever she was doing for the first half of their relationship was enough to make him happy enough to marry her. They have been TOGETHER for fifteen years, but married for only HALF of that. He has increased the demands now that they ARE married, and regardless of his reasons, he is telling her after FIFTEEN YEARS that things need to change. Is he finally asserting himself, being true to the real him, and demanding the respect and love that has been missing from their marriage for a decade and a half, or is he being an insensitive and selfish escapist during a time when his family is especially vulnerable? While we have no way of knowing that, we do know one thing: THEY ARE NO LONGER COMPATIBLE. The LW has already said that it's more than she can bear, and according to her, he said that he is not willing to compromise. Does it matter who is right and who is wrong when they're both in an unhappy situation? Is the idea of compromising until they both lose a truly viable solution? If she has time (and a sitter) to go to fetish parties, she has time to work out a little more life on her own once he's out of the house. If he is stable enough to help her while they cohabitate, then he is stable enough to help her once they separate. And if he is NOT stable enough to help her unsupervised, then he shouldn't be in the house with the kids anyway. It's a little late for DTMFA. Whether he is a MFA or not, he has already made up his mind.
106
This is so like my marriage, down to the fake suicide attempt. Except he just wanted to cheat, nothing kinky. Divorce and take full custody if you can. Manipulators' gonna manipulate, and the next people he's gonna manipulate into hating you are your own kids. Take my word for it.
107
Dan! How the hell did you do a complete DTMFA post without ever actually saying DTMFA? You are becoming like the yoda of sex advice columnists.
108
@57: That was "Beyond Annoyed" in "Diaper Pals"
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…

In a follow-up SLLOTD, Beyond Annoyed also had a child, and the husband admitted to being prospectively jealous of the baby getting more diapers changed than him.
http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/09/sava…

Another diaper fetishist's girlfriend (Sick of Diapered Sissy) wrote in about a similarly demanding boyfriend in "Diaper Do-Over." He insisted on increasingly elaborate role-play scenarios that took all day, and guilt-tripped her if she refused.
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…

I am theoretically fine with the relatively harmless kink of diaper-wearing. But between BA's hubby, SODS's boyfriend, and now MOMMY's husband . . . geezus, are there diaper fetishists out there that are not--for lack of a better phrase--big babies?
109
@ 72

"Who knows how that part went down, but had she taken his needs seriously when he brought them up, they might have discovered their incompatibility a long time ago, and might have chosen a different path that didn't involve so many kids."

Uh. No. Not entirely. I think your formulation is missing something. As his partner, LW had the obligation to take his fetish needs seriously, I'll grant.

However, and this is a big fucking HOWEVER, the Big Baby had the corresponding obligation to end the relationship, if he disclosed his kinks early on, and she wasn't into it.

There are two people responsible for maintaining the relationship. You can't put it all on LW. He apparently stuck it out even though his sexual needs were not met. That's on him, and IMO, that's mostly on him. Outside of the bedroom, he's an adult and needs to act like one. It's not all the non-kinky partner's fault. That's bullshit. The Big Baby should have walked earlier on, just as much as she should have presumably been more GGG. Relationships that presumably not abusive but still dysfunctional are so rarely one-sided that one party bears all reaponsibility for the dysfunction.
110
Good god, I am glad that I am a conscientious non-breeder. I'll be happy getting my children fix, by playing with my nephews...
111
Inspired by Sublime and Late's point that we're only seeing half the story:

"Dear Dan,
"I have been with my wife for fifteen years, married for seven. Early in our relationship, I disclosed that I have a serious adult baby fetish. My wife was at first accommodating -- but only every once in a blue moon; most of the time it was vanilla sex only, the way she likes it. This became a frequent bone of contention which was never really resolved, and although she promised to indulge me more often, I knew she wasn't into it, so I dropped it. Then she wanted to have children. I never wanted children, but I thought that if I agreed to provide her with kids, maybe she would be more willing to indulge my fetishes in return. We had two children, as she requested. Then she became pregnant a third time. Dan, I never wanted two kids, let alone three. Once there was, yet again, a baby in the house getting all the diapering attention I had been denied for so many years, I decided I couldn't take it anymore. The relationship had been all about her up to now, and I thought that if it was never going to be about me and my kinks, I may as well kill myself.
"Fortunately, my wife agreed to go to a kink-positive counsellor, and to indulge my kinks. But I can tell she isn't into them. I would much prefer to outsource my kinks to other women who do enjoy diapering me and giving me spankings, and I feel it would be only polite to reward them as well, possibly with some oral sex. But my wife, whom I've been providing with vanilla sex and an increasing number of children for 15 years (!), won't agree to this. Dan, isn't it my turn to get what I want?"

To which my reply would be the same:
"Dude, you're a father now; if you didn't want to be one, you should have ended the relationship and sought out a different partner. Your wife is being as GGG as she can under the circumstances. Now is the time to be a grown-up, not a big baby. Accept your wife's willingness to compromise and remember that your responsibilities as a father come before your kinks, particularly when your children are so young and need you so much."
112
Good one Fan, reward then with oral sex.
I sure hope the imaginary recipient of this letter would see thru that one.
If a man has children to accomodate his wife, the outcome is still the same:
ie; a mini breathing person.
I'm sure a lot of people have oops pregnancy leading to baby stories.
I know I do.
Doesn't matter, the task is still the same.
Of course there is two sides to any story, it's just not the time. This guy, if he wants to keep his family at all, needs to do some therapy.
113
@SublimeAfterGlow. Actually, I'd warrant there is some truth to your reading of LW and her husband. She clearly does not like the kink and has been indulging him, but only occasionally. I wouldn't be surprised if that, subconsciously or consciously, she thought this would all go away and massively underestimated the scope of his kink. On his side of it, I'd bet there had been some deluded thinking that she too would become a more willing participant.

On the other hand, if BiDan's reading is correct @ 111, I'd freaking kill him. "I didn't have kids because I wanted them....." OMG. death. death. death. Any man who said that to me would be hustled right out the door. You only have kids if you want them. You never say yes unless you are wholeheartedly on board, period.

Ofcookiesandrhetoric@105 I think calls it like I see it. In a way, it doesn't matter. They both deluded themselves up the primrose path and now are facing an essential incompatibility. Divorce it the way to go.

Perhaps he is justifiably angry for her lackadaisical attitude toward his kink. On the other hand, that justifiable resentment does not does not hand him carte blanche to act like a baby outside of the bedroom. If he's done with her, then call it done. Stop torturing LW through greater and greater "asks" - where she meets his bar to save the marriage and he sets a new one. And his responsibility to the kids? They are separate, divorced, and unrelated to whether his marriage carries on or not or his wick is dipped in diapers or not. That responsibility comes first.

And the suicide threat. Yah. No. End of story. However she might have acted at the start of this relationship (which he tolerated enough to marry after seven(!) years and have three kids) his behavior now is ugly.

LW, not survivable. He doesn't want to make it work. Hand him his walking papers. Let him burn through his kink. Live life more honestly, both of you.
114
@XG. I like to consider myself GGG, but the diaper kink would be a bridge too far for me, especially now that I have had children. The real process of birth and breast feeding is so .... ug... unsexy (to me). The incest taboos for me are so so strong that I'd get ill and I could never regard my partner as a sexual being. The closest I could get would be the master-slave relationship (in terms of power dynamics of helpless-powerful only), but there is no implication of pedophilia or incest. That of course is me. YMMV.
115
To be clear, i am not saying that diaper fetishes are pedophiles at all. I am saying that for ME the role-play would trigger that association. Ug. Not trying to start a flame war with anyone.
116
@111/BiDanFan: So you think that MOMMY's husband would write Dan a confessional of his bad behavior, the crux of which is that he never wanted children? I doubt that, as I believe MOMMY would have included that fact in her e-mail if she even suspected as much. If you're going to go through the effort of writing something from his perspective why invent from whole cloth, while while wholly failing to acknowledge the basis of his feelings, which MOMMY writes: "I forced him to suppress his needs for so long. Presumably those are his words, which should be front and center of his letter.

As I wrote at @65, how exactly do you think MOMMY got him to "suppress" his kinks? What did MOMMY say during those moments when her husband's kink became a bone of contention? And how did she act thereafter? I sure that MOMMY's husband would have a lot to say in a letter to Dan about those conversations and about MOMMY's actions. Did she make him ashamed of his kink, withdraw her love and affection, or withhold sex altogether? Did she make him feel like there was something wrong with him? Did this lead to a cycle of shame and depression many years ago? Did these conversations leaving feeling like he should only "want" vanilla sex?

Although we cannot know the answers to these questions, I think these are all reasonable questions to consider.

@105/Ofcookiesandrhetoric: Does it matter who is right and who is wrong when they're both in an unhappy situation? It's not an issue of "right" and "wrong," and I'll emphasize that I'm not trying to lay blame, which I think was the thrust of many comments. Rather, any resolution, other than divorce, requires a level of honesty about these circumstances which I sense was missing from MOMMY's letter (even after she has participated in counseling) and many comments until I broached an alternate take on this marriage.
117
Sublime - Your talent is wasted here! Go on over to The Wife Has Issues (And a Boyfriend) column and see how you can spin that one to blame the husband for his wife's shitty behavior. From what I've seen here, I'm sure you can pull that one off too!
118
He's convinced her that he's had to "suppress" his desires, when that is the furthest thing from the truth. The truth is that he has NOT had to suppress them, but that he has had to live with not having them indulged on his every whim. That's not suppression; that's life. No one gets everything they want the moment they want it all the time. And anyone who insists that they should is being an asshole.

I know it's hard to admit it when it's your life, MOMMY, but your husband is not loving. He's manipulating you and showing zero concern for your needs. DTMFA.
119
In addition to everything else that is so wrong about this relationship...

"We did this because my husband got depressed and wanted to end his life and—yes—that got my attention."

Honey, this is another control tactic. If he wanted to end his life, he would have. Run and get your children away from this man!
120
Sam Miches @109 -- You seem to have missed the bit @72 where I say, "He shouldn't have taken no for an answer all those years ago, if this is so important to him." We don't disagree. I was just pointing out some of the more glaring points that people were overlooking, or choosing to interpret in the worst possible way.
121
Sublime @116: I have no idea whether Mr MOMMY would write to Dan. In previous SLLOTDs, a thought exercise has been to imagine the situation from the other person's perspective. Because MOMMY stated that the problems started after the birth of their third child, I surmised that the third child was the trigger for all the frustration to come pouring out, possibly because he had viewed fatherhood as a trade-off for kink indulgence. I, of course, have no more proof of this than you do of any of your conjectures, but it would explain the timing. And how do I think the "bone-of-contention" conversations went? I'd guess: They'd start with him whining, her promising to step up, him saying never mind because you're not into it anyway, her saying well I guess I just can't win then, and both of them walking away upset and unresolved.

Regardless, the answer is the same. Now is not the time for him to prioritise HIS needs over everything else, and I think every reasonable person on this board knows that.
122
Dan, thank you for a brilliant dissection of false-masochist manipulation behavior. I do fetishes for submissive men professionally; they are the most sickeningly, transparently manipulative ppl you could ever have the misfortune to deal with; they act out a pantomime of giving their partner all the power while constantly upping the ante to keep their partner manipulated into a state of insecurity, frustration and anger, which is their genuine fetish(their physical submission is a tease to draw someone close to enact their real goal of constant aggravation, its a nightmare to deal with).
I have seen so many "submissive" men completely destroy their wives mentally with these nonstop psychologically manipulative games, convincing wife it's all her fault every time he does something to upset her, its her fault for either underindulging him or overindulging him, because "she has all the power".
The truth about these men is they aren't submissive at all, their real fetish is just keeping their partner upset.
MOMMY is in an impossible relationship. No matter what she does to try to keep him happy, he will always keep escalating his demands and telling her it's her fault his needs aren't being met. He is engaged in an inner psychological battle to get back at his own mother; he doesn't really want to submit to mommy, he wants to punish her for his mother's perceived mistakes, and nothing she does will ever please him or bring peace to the relationship because peace is not what he wants, he only wants to keep mommy upset.
I see it every day.
123
Also, jibeho is a complete moron.
124
Sorry, I lamely misjudged jibeho's sarcasm on first pass. Having read more of sublime's weird conjecturing... I'm a complete moron for calling jibeho a complete moron.
125
@113: "Any man who said that to me would be hustled right out the door. You only have kids if you want them. You never say yes unless you are wholeheartedly on board, period. "

For what it's worth, this is one of those areas that tends to be different for men--it seems to be A Thing that women often have much stronger feelings on the kids/no-kids issue than men. I mean, I don't think I've ever met a woman who was neutral on the question, but I know a lot of men who are (or were).

Some of those have kids, and almost all of them are wholeheartedly on board once it starts. But some thought that would happen... and then it doesn't.
126
@4 "He sounds like a horrible person. (Because of the malice and gaslighting not because of the kinks.) ".
This is the reason I read all the Dan comments. I always intend to read just a few but an hour later I'm still reveling in them. Smart, full or heart, sensible, non judgmental. She's not judging the guy's kinks but his lousy personality. Thanks, Dan, for providing this forum.
127
@51 - I too am involved in fetish and I concur, mommies are very, very rare indeed. This guy is either a real catch (doesn't sound it based on his description as a narcissistic jerk, but perhaps he's very very hot and charismatic?), lying or paying.

128
@126 &127,
Totally agreed. I really try to discipline myself to avoid wasting time in pointless internet discussions, but this issue struck a familiar nerve for me, and these commenters completely won my heart.

To 127;
Look up malignant narcissism. They are always extraordinarily charismatic and over-the-top charming, but its all an act to lure ppl close in order to gain emotional control of them and make them a willing participant in their own destruction. False-masochistic sexual behavior to lure the partner into a false belief that "she has all the power" is one of their favorite weapons.
Again, I see it every day.
129
I have the same kink as the letter-writer's husband, and he sounds like a jackass to me too. (I don't want to call her by her abbreviation, there's only one person I use that name for and I'm married to her.)

I appreciate SublimeAfterglow's efforts to imagine both perspectives complexly, but whatever her level of culpability may be, right now he's a father of very young children, and putting divorce on the table because he's not happy with his sex life is really inappropriate. You keep commitments first, then you satisfy fetishes. "Adult baby" has the word "adult" in it for a reason.

(I was tempted to write "duty before doody" there, but I decided to spare you all. Wasn't that nice of me? You're very welcome.)
130
Ironically (hopefully not in an Alanis Morissette sense) sarcasm can be hard to conceal, and hard to convey, at the very same time :)
131
@125.

I could see that. I know for my husband the kid thing was negotiable. He'd been fine if we didn't have any. For me, I wanted kids.
132
@129

You are cool.
133
Enfant, thanks for showing up, because I was really (after looking at the @108 links, and I hope Beyond Annoyed is doing okay) having a pretty hard time not thinking this kink meant a shitty human. Appreciate your highlighting the word "adult".

134
@128 - very familiar with malignant narcissism, and having seen it too many times once I spot the signs (love bombing as you say being one) I find it an instant turnoff. Certainly the kink scene is rife with it. It has particularly unpleasant manifestation in some male subs who can, as you say, get very, very demanding and controlling. However, there are also some who are reasonable human beings and excellent partners.
Honestly though, the most dangerous malignant narcissists in my scene are all women. There is one who is partnered with one of the local scene's most prominent male doms. She is publicly friendly towards other women he plays with, while privately stabbing them in the back.
There is a female dom who basically has a farm of sub/switch partners, so many she can't play with them all so she has them play with each other or gets her friends to do it, while she trawls for fresh meat. Not a pro, but there seems to be a lot of 'gifts' involved, and a lot of emotional abuse.
The women are a bit more subtle and take longer to spot, but they are better connected and far more dangerous.

I play these games for fun with (lovely) people of my choosing, but I wouldn't care to work in the area - my hat is off to you for having the patience to deal with it!
135
@129 - well done for being reasonable about your kinks and the time and effort that is available to satisfy them versus other life commitments.
It's amazing how many more of the folks who take your attitude end up in fulfilling arrangements than the demanding, controlling, gaslighting kind ;)
136
@94 LateBloomer. Ooooo!!! Shakespeare!!! Hotness! I'll agree with anything at all you say.
137
I seem to be in the minority in thinking that divorce with 3 young kids in the house should be the last resort option.
You two sit down, draw up an agreement. Here's how much we're spending on a professional / the rules for the fetish parties.
You will "go to the YMCA" for x amount of time, on x day, x times a month. Whatever happens there stays there. You don't tell me a word. Then you will come back home, happy and recharged, and be the dad and husband we need you to be. You will change the diapers, feed the kids, read bedtime stories, do the dishes, fuck me, whatever else is necessary.
If not, then I will DTMFA. You'll lose your home and family and you'll be paying me a handsome figure to raise the kids. Good luck with enough left over for yourself. Sound fair?
138
@136 -- Very well. First I need you to put on this Lycra jester's outfit, blonde wig and stylishly high-heeled buckle shoes....
139
I think this letter is bullshit. The chances of an adult baby, finding anyone, much less a reasonably sane female (sane guys have different rules) who is willing to indulge their fetishes for anything other than money or some sort of invested emotional reason, like trying to be GGG for their hubby, is pretty much 0. The idea that this guy is going to events and getting any action whatsoever, much less opportunities for "second dates' is fantasy. Maybe the LW is a woman who is expressing her fear and wondering "what if". Rest assured, this scenario you have laid out, is not going to happen, but no matter what, get rid of your whiny hubby, and take care of your real kids. And maybe the LW is a man who just has way to much time on his hands, and is wondering "what if". In that case, LW, let it go. There are better ways to handle your fear about your fetish, and you should write questions about that.
140
@134,
Agreed. Working with men can be a pain, but I enjoy the cash and the freedom, and as you say, the men aren't all like lw's hubby, some are a genuine pleasure. But I won't work with women. Not for love nor money. Nope. Men are generally at least more consciously aware of their own covert and overt manipulation tactics; with women it's just impossible to trust their conscious awareness of these tactics. I read a study on honesty once that claimed both sexes are generally very adept at recognizing lies by their own gender, and rather dumb at recognizing lies by the opposite sex, maybe that applies somewhat.

@137
Working out compromises with a guy like this is a fool's game. He has already broken every deal she has made with him, and made her feel she's the guilty party every step of the way. No matter how broad a boundary she allows, he will always break it and blame her. He will always just keep moving the goalposts.
Example: I have a married guy very similar as a client, for whom i serve as "confessor", so he admits all this shit to me openly. They begun their marriage as swingers, the only boundary being that they had to share their extramarital partners, no solo-cheating. He solo-cheated before the honeymoon was over. When wife eventually caught him (quite by accident, because she really believed swinging had removed his motive to cheat, they had a deal), he blamed her for "suffocating" him, moved the goalposts to say he now needed to solo-cheat (which he'd actually been doing all along) or end the marriage. She agrees out of desperate love, and for the sake of the kids. New boundary is; he can cheat, but he must be discreet and publicly respect the marriage, and use condoms, and only cheat with women. He agrees, without telling her that he already habitually fucks men unprotected as well as women. (To date, by his admission, he has fucked over 200 men unprotected). He went on and fathered kids with two other women by having unprotected sex, then was paying childsupport to both. Then he has a financial pinch and misses childsupport payments to babymamas, he blames the wife, telling babymamas that she just won't let him pay childsupport, so they show up at the house threatening wife (who was completely unaware of extramarital kids up til then) in front of neighbors and her own children. Wife makes ANOTHER compromise in order to save the marriage, he again blames her for his transgressions, convinces her that all his previous cheating was just an effort to provoke her into satisfying his anal submissive /masochistic needs (again, his transgression =her fault) and the punishment he deserves is to become her submissive sissyboy, which was actually a reward that he enjoyed. She became an exquisite dominatrix , he convinced her that if she would only be cruel enough, he would no longer need to cheat . Of course, again, he never really stopped cheating and when caught again, this time told her it was her fault because she was TOO cruel.
And if you think all that was bad, all the while he's been confessing this shit to me, he's also been trying to lovebomb me, showering me with gifts, trying to convince me to move overseas with him when he leaves his wife, because I truly understand him (Ha, YEAH i do!), and meantime he's carrying on at least three other affairs he thinks I'm unaware of in which he's telling them the same thing, while also leading the wife on as if the marriage can still be saved. blahblahblah. What I've told is only a small fraction of this situation, it only keeps getting worse from there. The guy doesn't treat his kids any better than he treats their mothers, and I pray for those poor kids every day.
This is not the only "submissive" man I've met with a consistent pattern of such sickening exploits. They're more common than you want to know.

My point is, there is no reasoning, no compromise, no deal that can be made with these types of men. It just goes on and on. They aren't submissive, its all about the thrill of convincing women to keep accepting their ever-more-ridiculous demands. And with kids involved, keeping a manipulative narcissist in his childrens' lives in an attempt to make him "own his responsibility as a father" will never accomplish that goal; it only punishes the children by forcing them to deal with a selfish, immature, resentful father who will manipulate them just as cruelly as he manipulates their mother... or mothers, in the case of the above example.
Bottom line: shitty manipulative lying spouses are usually also shitty manuipulative lying parents, and kids don't deserve that. Sometimes losing a parent is better.
141
Mother of pearl. I live a sheltered life.
142
@140 **virtual standing ovation for RestingB1tchFace**
143
RBF@140 are you sure he doesn't get off on fake confessions? It all sounds like a bit too much.
144
@143
At first I thought he had to be pulling my leg, but as I continued seeing him over the course of a year (I will admit, he was exyraordinarily beautiful, funny, and the gifts were nice, I'm not made of stone), verifiable proof surfaced, over and over, that not only were his admissions true, but that he was often omitting parts of the story to cast himself in a better light. When real names are given, facts can be checked, and factchecking resulted in discoveries that the truth was even uglier, and sadder, and more hideously unfair to his legitimate children than I could have imagined. Literally, verifiable, undeniable, video proof containing testimony from disinterested third-parties who had no motive to fabricate it. Local news videos, property and marriage and birth records, etc.
But yes, the fetish you mention exists, and I dearly wish, for his childrens' sake, that this had been the case in the example I gave. He only told me as much as he had to, and upon further research, the whole truth turned out to be even worse.
145
sarah_anonymous @139
I would have agreed with you about the odds until about six months ago. I went to an ageplay party at a dungeon in San Francisco that turned out to be several notches more intense than I'd ever experienced before (or particularly want to again), and now I think the story isn't completely implausible. Early in the evening I overheard a woman chatting with a guy in baby clothes that she seemed to have just met, and they hooked up later. Come to think of it, a good friend of mine met his wife that way, though in their case there was a much longer courtship involved.

However, I must admit, I think the odds are better that the "couple of women" interested in the guy are either professional or fictional.
146
Wow. Just. Wow. I've learned a lot.
148
I have no trouble believing there are multiple women who are up for this with LW's husband, nor do I have trouble believing RBF's asshole client's account of his activities. If someone is magnetic enough, for whatever reason, they will have options. I suspect this is what happened with LW in the first place. She was never into his fetish but he was magnetic enough that she chose to minimize the potential consequences. Perhaps this is the case with some or most of the other women in his sexual life, as well. I know one particularly beautiful person with a similar fetish and he does not lack options.

LW's husband sounds like a huge a-hole and I join the chorus of DTMFAs. But I also have compassion for him in that it seems to me fetishes can be limiting and yet so powerful and we don't choose them. I'm grateful to merely have preferences, and a wide variety of them, rather than fetishes.
149
I don't really care if anyone believes it or not, I only gave ONE firsthand example in hopes of clarifying how dstructive it can be to try to reason with this type of man. I will add this though, for the benefit of ppl who prefer the view through rose-colored glasses:
When a man is born extraordinarily beautiful, intelligent, and wealthy, he is never, and I mean NEVER at a loss of sexual opportunities. When someone is lucky enough to go through life with very few limitations, they will often end up constantly pushing the few limitations they do encounter, just to see what they can get away with, and when they are surrounded by ppl who "just have a hard time believing that", they can get away with quite a bit. Whether you want to believe it or not, psychopaths, sociopaths and malignant narcissists exist, and one of the main reasins they are able to get away with so much is precisely because so many people just can't fathom that such a lifestyle is possible. For those who simply "can't believe it", I envy you your ignorance of the existence of such people, and I hope for your sake that you never get a firsthand education.
Personally, I see men do things on a daily basis that their wives simply "wouldn't believe". Those womens' willful ignorance is my job security, so , *shrug*.

And catlady, thank you, but if you don't stop agreeing with me, I predict we will soon be subjected to a rash of accusations that we are in fact one person posting under multiple profiles. After all, if my crazy, made-up story about the existence of sociopaths is "impossible to believe", then surely anyone who agrees with me must also be impossible to believe as well.
Meh. Ssdd.
150
And i hate my keyboard, apologies for typos, always posting from a phone makes it hard to proofread. "reasins".
151
@149 RBF - Well then I'll disagree with you and say that a combination of extreme beauty and intelligence is enough, no wealth required. And then there are people who just have insanely strong charisma.
152
RestingB1tchFace @149,

I think what people were finding hard to believe was that in the past month or so an adult baby has met two amateur mommies who actively want to change his diaper. Not that sociopaths exist.
153
@152 Alison - Who knows if those two new women actually enjoy roleplaying mommy. This is third hand info. She says he says they enjoy it or something like that. Maybe they're just super attracted to him and are willing to play along. Maybe they don't even know about the diaper thing yet. I mean, I hope they're all actually into it and maybe met through a shared interest in that fetish, but it is not at all clear to me from what was written in the letter.
154
futurecatlady @153,

All we know is that the LW reports that her husband says that “he's met a couple of different women who enjoy being mommies and he wants to explore his baby fetish with these women.”

This may not be true: we don’t have objective evidence of these women. That’s why so many commenters think the hypothesis that he’s lying is plausible, even more plausible than the one that he’s telling the truth.
155
@154 Alison - I agree that's another possibility. I suppose I just disagree that it is the most likely possibility.
156
futurecatlady,

And among all the competing theories, the existence of sociopaths was never once questioned.
157
So I'm coming extremely late to the party, but...I may or may not know this couple. I'm probably as close to a neutral party as there could be. And I wanted to clear up a few things that people have mentioned, for anyone else who comes to this late.

a) If anything, MOMMY's understated the scope of the issue, the GGG hoops that she has jumped through, and the amount of untruths, half-truths, and lies of omission that she has been told. Everything she's done, he's moved the goalposts afterwards. I find it insane that he is lucky enough to have found a vanilla partner who's willing to do the things she does and still keep pushing for more. It's mind-boggling.

b) #65 has the smallest of fair points that she didn't do enough to satisfy his fetish for a significant portion of their relationship - but that was not because of the ick factor (mostly), it was because she was dealing with severe health issues. And it really didn't help that he has taken far, far more than he has given in terms of bedroom activities.

c) The children were not forced upon him; in fact, all three children were conceived via fertility treatments. There is no way you can argue that he didn't go into fertility treatments without his full knowledge and consent. He wanted the kids. Whether he still wants to fulfill his responsibilities, well, now, that's another matter.

d) There is absolutely no indication of pedophilia. So stop suggesting it.

e) I can confirm that he has, in fact, been in email conversations with at least one mommy, and probably more. Don't know how he found them, but he did, and it really is a thing. Guess it's not impossible to find mommies in the right circumstances.

f) A few people have suggested that they be monogamish. I honestly don't understand that. She specifically said in her letter that she's not okay with that, and it's non-negotiable. If you are, fine, but don't tell others to do it if they've said no.

g) He is not a sociopath, and it's unfair to call him that. I do think that he is being selfish and lacking in empathy, though.

h) I make no comment as to his parenting skills. Take of that what you will.

i) #48 could not have hit it more on the head if she tried. I really think he wants out, but doesn't want to be the "bad guy", and has somehow convinced himself that if it's her fault, it's okay to leave. Rather than just manning up and saying, "Look, this ain't working, I'm outta here, peace," he's pushing her and pushing her until she finally has to say no and then he's not to blame in his mind.

In the end, many people in her life have been advising MOMMY to DTMFA, but she wanted to hear it from someone independent of the situation. And I'm glad that Dan and the vast, vast, vast majority of the commenters here are on board too.