Thank you, Paul, for consistently being a voice of reason, intelligence and class for this publication.

Your book-ordering example only works, some of the time, if you know exactly what book you're looking for. Whatever advantages shelf-browsing has disappear when you're special-ordering. And keyword searching has a lot of advantages, too.

Screwups like this one are only going to get more common as the reliance on data-flogging increases. The data, as anyone who's encountered one of Amazon's zillions of typos or other flubs knows, isn't treated with much importance. But that's true of the bookseller's systems too.

Bear in mind that Amazon IS independent booksellers, too. TONS of independent sellers sell through Amazon -- and their data makes Amazon's internal stuff look like polished diamonds. A surprisingly large percentage of indie booksellers are illiterate boobs when it comes to stuff like spelling.

I'm not knocking indies, particularly. I go to them all the time. But I have peculiar tastes, and Amazon consistently meets my searching needs better than any Seattle bookseller.

I tried yesterday to order a book (not at all a ridiculously rare book) from Elliott Bay's web site but it was "Special Order - Subject to Availability." I didn't feel like jacking around wondering what that meant or whether I would get my book or not. So I just ordered it from Amazon. Done.

I know Constant has some very, very valid points. But, also, it is independent bookstores and their appalling sense of entitlement that leaves me staggered at their arrogance.

I made the mistake of eating at Elliott Bay's revamped restaurant during their first few days of growing pains and that was staggeringly arrogant at first. Later they gave a more acceptable admission of fault to Bethany Jean Clement. They got it together but please don't tell me these little shops are any less likely to stumble and fall when they screw up and have a PR problem.

So, in other words, you want the rest of to pay more for books so you can enjoy your hobby. Look, that's nice you like local books stores, I can't really stand them myself. Its a bitch to find things, I can't easily cross reference, and frankly its a waste of time to drive down there, walk inside, interact with the employees, and drive home. I see zero benefit from it. The staff are no more knowledgeable then a quality commenter on Amazon, and while the notion of local buisness makes for nice slogans I highly doubt your average book store employee or even owner makes any more then your average Amazon employee.

Amazon is not perfect, but they are the better alternative. There will always be local book stores, just like one can still buy typewriters or ride in a horse carriage. But there are going to be less of them and no amount of tilting at windmills is going to change that.

There's no such thing as too much money for a business. There's no reason for self-regulation, the CEOs, etc have a fiduciary requirement to make the shareholders money. Not "juts enough money" but as much money as possible.

If you want small book sellers, ask the government to regulate mega-chains, but don't ask the mega-stores to get smaller, it's pointless and shows a complete misunderstanding of even basically business sense.

In the time it takes me to fruitlessly call several bookstores around the city, I can find, order, and pay for the same book on Amazon. The loss of physical book stores won't end books, much like the loss of typewriters didn't end writing. Innovative, efficient businesses are the future of our economy.

In the time it takes me to log on to Amazon and order books and DVDs I can logon to SPL (Seattle Public Library) and reserve books and DVDs for free.

And pick them up on my way home.

Ah, free, the only way to be.

I usually buy product for the product, not the atmosphere.

"successful businesses will keep making money until they become too huge to be healthy for the rest of us. They don't have an "OK, that's enough money" valve."

There is indeed such a valve - it's called "the market". If a business for whatever reason no longer does right by its customers, its customers take their money somewhere else, and said business stops growing.

"We used to have monopoly and antitrust laws to protect the public from giant companies going bad or getting too goddamned big"

We still do have such laws. Their purpose is not to prevent companies from getting too big, it's to prevent them from maintaining a monopoly. That's an important distinction.

It's clear that you, Paul, like to root for the underdog, which is cool. But small vs. big is not necessarily Good vs. Evil.

Seattle bike guy, you are not thinking clearly.

You can call one book store and they can order it for you and have it for you in the same amount of time.

See, Will, this is one of your lies. If you had been using the SPL web site, you would know that every time you go there you have to log in with your 13 digit library card number, then search for your book, then not find it, then somehow navigate back to the home page with no link to it, then find the request form for a book. This opens in a new window.

You then fill in a dozen fields on the form, including your 13 digit library card number because it turns out you are mysteriously no longer logged into SPL.org and this new form has never seen you before in its life and has no clue who you are.

Repeat entire process, once per book until your brain explodes.

Even if the book is in the SPL collection, it's probably not waiting at your local branch on your way home, unless you're on your way home from a 3 day trip.

Don't get me wrong. Reserving books from the collection and interlibrary loan is the cat's ass, but their web site is a clunker and does not do what it does in the same time as Amazon.com does what it does.

And you're a liar, Will. I said that, right?

@11,

I don't disagree about the lousy SPL website, but you don't have to be logged in to search for a book.

Didn't Jeff Bozos go into like 2 Billion of debt just to fund his local bookstore killer site?

Who sez biznasts have to make money?!

Kevin @ 10 - Let me guess, you work at a book store?

But you do to reserve one. But I've never had this mysterious not-logged-in problem, and Firefox remembers my card number and my PIN for me.

SPL's website ain't perfect, but being able to remotely find, reserve, and get delivered to your local branch is FANTASTIC.

Unfortunately, SPL has hardly any books.

I also cannot agree with "I see zero benefit from it." I'd rather spend an hour in a bookstore, even one that didn't have what I want, than any other activity I can think of. Maybe even that one. But then, I also browse WorldCat for pleasure.

seandr @9: "But small vs. big is not necessarily Good vs. Evil. "

No, not necessarily, but good luck convincing folks of that in the current climate. We are all collectively footing the bill for companies that have become "too big to fail," which essentially means they reap the rewards when times are good, and we pay the price when times are bad. The current thinking seems to be that the problem with the "too big to fail" crowd is the failure part, but there are plenty of folks who take issue with the "too big" part, as in: why do we allow companies to become so large that their potential failure is a national liability? Why keep all our economic eggs in so few baskets?

Big may not necessarily be evil, but it sure does reek right about now.

As far as time goes: if you are a fast typist and a reasonably competent Amazon user, and you know the exact book you want, you can complete your Amazon transaction in about 1/20th the time it takes to call that bookstore, get a person, convey your desire to her or him, wait while she looks it up, etc. You're talking about a tiny total number of bytes of info that is changing hands either way. Not all direct human interactions are that enjoyable.

Amazon is a third choice.

First is the King County Library System, which has an excellent catalog search, and you can also easily request inter-library loans. They'll hold the book at your local branch. (Seattle residents can borrow but can't place holds.)

Second is Seattle Public Library, though their catalog searching is much more hit-and-miss (try searching for, oh, Dan Savage from the main box on each web page and compare the results).

Amazon comes in third, and only if KCLS can't ILL the book in two weeks or so.

@sgiffy:

Its a bitch to find things, I can't easily cross reference, and frankly its a waste of time to drive down there, walk inside, interact with the employees, and drive home. I see zero benefit from it.

If you don't understand the benefits of backing away from the computer and dealing with humans, then you are Amazon's ideal customer and this post is not aimed at you.

@Seandr:

There is indeed such a valve - it's called "the market".

And that's worked out really well in the last half-year, hasn't it?

@19, But I can deal with humans on the computer. In fact more of them since most books have numerous well written and well thought out reviews. Reviews by people who generally have no interest in selling me anything.

What you are talking about is interacting face to face with employees. Honestly between friends, family, and my professional life I interact with enough people, IRL as the kids say, that I do need to do when I'm engaging in commerce.

But you are right I am Amazon's ideal customer in that I enjoy buying things online where I can access an abundance of information and hate wasting time on boring and unpleasant activities like shopping.

@8:

Yes, if you treat a book as a "product", then I wouldn't expect you to care about the atmosphere that you purchase your product in. In fact, your point of view would be perfectly understandable.

For myself, I would never dare to call books "products".

My Amazon loathing began in--oh, 1997 or so when they peremptorily changed their privacy policy, sold our data like hot-dish-on-a-stick at the Minnesota State Fair and said fuck-off to anyone who objected.

I've been happy to sate my book purchasing needs elsewhere since, with little notable adverse effect on my psyche or career.

You're fetishizing bookstores. Let them go, they'll soon be gone.

The important thing is the availability of information, and Amazon has contributed tremendously to this. True, the clerk at the counter can make a better recommendation than Amazon's recommender system. But can the clerk make a better recommendation than a blog of avid readers who share your interests? The way in which people discover what to read is changing, and that is killing brick-and-mortar just as much as sales competition from Amazon.
It's already happened for music: every song I've bought in the last two years has been discovered through friends or blogs or last.fm.
The only thing that bookstores can beat the internet on now is atmosphere, but unfortunately for them, cafes offer fierce competition in that regard.

This fetishization of the physical edifice rather than the information is how librarians lost their role as custodians of information (now held by computer scientists) and became shelvers of books instead.

@23, the problem with your brave new world is that the shutting of bookstores destroys lively neighborhoods and thus contributes to the atomization of community.

@14 nope! I just like 'em.

@23: It's not just bookstores, though: I prefer having real places to go to to buy stuff and meet people with similar tastes. I think cities are at the point that small town America was at some twenty years ago, with the decision between the small store or the low prices at Wal-Mart. Have you been in a small town lately? Speaking for my own home town, it's a fucking shithole, and a lot of that is, flat-out, due to Wal-Mart.

Just because something is cheaper or more convenient doesn't make it right. We scoff at red staters for shopping at Wal-Mart and then make the same goddamned stupid decisions ourselves, only in newer and slightly more high-tech ways (even though it's just glorified catalog business.)

I've always considered Amazon a local entity. I also don't consider buying a book from Amazon or one of it's independent contributers a "goddamned stupid decision".

What do you call a book store that doesn't have what you want, but can order it? A glorified catalog business. I also treasure not having to chat with anyone while shopping, similar tastes or not.
I'm not sure that a decrease in local bookstores will have the same effect across the whole economy as walmart did in small towns. I am still going to buy bikes, clothes, food, and other items in person, from local stores.

Yeah, but for how long, @seattle bike guy? Once Amazon Fresh works out the bugs, are you going to start using them and stop buying at the co/op? My point is that it isn't just bookstores. Or record stores. But bookstores and record stores are a symptom, an early symptom, of a larger problem.

@4 : What point are you trying to make about wages? Of course indie booksellers & owners don't make more money than Amazon-- and? When you have the chains & Amazon eating away most of your potential profit margin *you can't afford to stay in business & pay employees like they are Bankers*.
And there WON'T always be local bookstores-- as indie stores close, the membership of the American Booksellers Association dwindles, meaning less unity to, say, CREATE WEBSITES FOR ALL INDIES TO SELL ONLINE...

Amazon only starting with books online because it is the only industry where you can spend 2 million on books and 9 months later, if you haven't sold a single book, you can return them all to the publishers & get most of your money back... Shoes, electronics, clothes, all are non-returnable to the manufacturers... It wasn't altruism to start with books, just shrewd....
As Amazon's power grows (it now owns one of the 3 major Print On Demand companies in the US), the same thing will happen with Amazon's buyers that happens with the Chains: Due to a person's whimsy, they can bully the publisher into high print-runs for books they think will sell & force publishers to underprint (or even delay) books that don't 'hit the right note'; yeah, the pubs should have balls, but when B&N can say either "I'll order 300,000" or "I'll order 5"-- regardless of whether they'll ACTUALLY sell 300,000, remember 'returns'-- that's a pretty powerful hammer...

Look, it takes Amazon's gargantuan recommendation program (millions spent developing it, but the way) to suggest books to visitors, and who knows if they'll actually buy said recommendation, yet it takes 1 man to recommend books to customers who then walk to the counter and BUY EVERY BOOK THEY ARE HANDED... check out chapter 4 of "Simplexity" by Jeffrey Kluger for the example... The bookseller is Michael Coy, who had to close his long-standing M.COY BOOKS recently (guess why?)...

Amazon is about wresting as much money from the publishers as possible so in the future, the only recourse for an author to publish will be to go directly to Amazon (they can print the book for you, sell it, sell the e-version, all the while taking a cut each time), and in light of this recent 'glitch', who's comfortable with only one opinion on whether your book is worth publishing (cause, you know, if it's 'adult'- or gay themed you might be shit outta luck)...

And Seattle Bike Guy: What kinda bike do you ride? Did you build it yourself? Is the company small, or large? Where did you get it from?

elenchos @3:

I took a look for your book on Elliott Bay's site. While you're right that Ducati (the story of a make of motorcycle) isn't "ridiculously rare", it is definitely a niche book from a niche publisher (Motorbooks) that was published in 1998. Given that Elliott Bay keeps around 150,000 titles in stock (that's *titles* -- not copies of books) and has limited physical space, if there are books that are not being consistently bought (consistently = once every three or four years), they are not going to keep those books in stock.

Now we come to the "Special Order -- Subject to Availability" message on their website. If you ever pick up the phone and call Elliott Bay, they will tell you exactly what that means. Yes, it might means that the book will come in a month. It also might mean that the book will come in two weeks, 2-4 days -- or they might have a used copy right in the store.

Independent bookstores don't traditionally do well with machines and Paul has rightly bemoaned that, but they are amazing with people. They know that the reason they continue to exist is their customer service, and they work as hard as they possibly can to keep that customer service top notch. If you take the five minutes to call an independent bookstore, they will work hard (even over the phone!) to find what you are looking for and get you a precise timetable for when you'll get it.

You can also -- most of the time -- return a special ordered book if you don't like it (be sure to ask about this up front, though -- about one in a hundred books can't be returned), and returning a specially ordered book at an independent bookstore is about ten times less hassle than returning one from Amazon. If you return a book from Amazon, you have to repackage the book, go to a post office, and wait in line. If you return a special order book at a bookstore, the process goes a little more like this: 1. Walk into bookstore. 2. Ask for your special order book. 3. Look at it. 4. Decide you don't want it. 5. Say, "I'm so sorry -- this isn't what I thought it would be." 6. Done.

Anyway. Full disclosure? I used to work at Elliott Bay. I don't anymore, and haven't for about two years, but I care a lot about what happens to that building and those people and those books. I came from a crappy little Midwestern town with a crappy little bookstore and before I got to Seattle my idea of a large independent bookstore was the Strand -- giant, arrogant, poorly organized and the booksellers were mean to you. When I walked into Elliott Bay for the first time, I thought I was walking into heaven. Independent bookstores are important for all the reasons that everyone's been saying -- there's nothing I can say there that hasn't been said at one point or other. I guess whether or not you like independents swings on one thing -- who do *you* want to win, the people or the machines?

Fuck US Steel! I get all my 'shoes from the blacksmith on the corner.

Vlad @30,
I'm sure there is no way to answer your bicycle question that will calm your book panic. I don't, however, buy any bike parts that I can't touch first. Books are another story. Some things you just don't need to handle if you know exactly what you want. All bookstores won't go under, just enough to balance out with actual demand. People like yourself and others who like to book shop in person will keep some stores afloat. The days of words on paper are slowly ticking down, and I'm not particularly freaked out. Sorry.

@31: the problem is, almost all the books I buy are "it is definitely a niche book from a niche publisher". And, if you're familiar with "the long tail", a shockingly large percentage of total book sales (and record sales, etc.) are niche. Even if they only sell a dozen copies a year, or less, times the 100,000-odd books that are published in English each year, and the how-many-millions of books in print, that's a lot of goddamn books.

That's the kind of thing you're dealing with. EACH of those millions -- and millions more if you count out-of-print books sold used -- has a market somewhere. Before Amazon, we could barely dream of having a shot at seeing those; now they're a click away. No special orders, no year-long book searches making the rounds by postcard.

@33, more and more bike parts are being sold online, though. You can buy any Campagnolo crankset you want from Amazon. Eventually, some bricks'n'mortar stores are going to feel that pinch. What if it's yours?

Camera stores are disappearing too.

AARGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am so sick of listening to retards talking about purchasing my items locally and shopping in nice little local neighbourhoods. Look f-tards it's called capitalism.

You know why I like amazon and other online stores? Because like millions of other people in the world, when I order something from these not so local retailers I have already researched the subject to the Nth degree and unfortunately my local retailers just doesn't seem to have it in stock or they don't have the buying power to get it. When I'm waving my money around to purchase something, I expect results and well they deliver.

Why is everyone so mad that Amazon at first glossed over the technical issues that caused the problem?

Why wasn't the explanation, - "It's a glitch, a mistake, delisting these books was not intentional, and we are working to fix it." Good enough?

Amazon came out and said "WE DID NOT INTENTIONALLY BAN THESE BOOKS." and then worked non-stop to rectify the problem as soon as they could.

Please explain to me what it would have taken for you to be satisfied? The source code for their catalog system? The database schema? A photocopy of the termination paperwork for the guy responsible?

If Amazon did this on purpose I could see the outrage, but it's like you guys got so worked up over this that you can't admit that you overreacted just a bit so now rather than tear Amazon down over banning the books (which would be COMPLETELY understandable) you are tearing them down over how long it took them to fix the problem and the specific words used to convey that it was a mistake (glitch, bug, user error, mistake they all equal NOT INTENTIONAL)

Fnarf-
I think we're mainly on the same page on this. The reason I will never shop for bikes online is exactly the same reason I buy books online. I mainly buy used. I am too cheap/poor to buy brand new anything. If I buy something new, its things I need immediately, like tubes, cables, or broken parts. I just bought my new DSLR used. From Glazers. Which will probably survive. They run a great store, and have great deals on used stuff. Kens Camera? Won't miss it. The passing of these stores is part of the cycle of things, to be replaced with things that we do support. I used to try and find my used books locally, but it was a giant waste of time. If there was a searchable index of every used book in Seattle with prices and location, I wouldn't use Amazon.

Replaced by WHAT things we do support, though? Moneytree?

seattle bike guy @38:

If you go to www.bookfinder.com you will find listings for pretty much every used book available to buy on the web -- and if you purchase directly from the used book websites (alibris, biblio, abebooks), Amazon doesn't get a kickback.

this debate has a lot to do with personalities and values, and everyone has their own. if you're a screen-centered person, and you want most of your interactions to be with people you already know really well, than cool. sit in your house. i don't need to interact with you, because it would probably be pretty awkward.
however, a lot of people who live in cities do so because they want to be around other people and have a lot of opportunities to see art and culture and politics, in person. so for us, to lose things like indie bookstores where the people know what they're doing, it's painful. especially if you're both a city person and a book person, there's nothing like a building full of books and other people, strangers or friends, who love them and know a lot about them.
but i don't think we should do so much work to win over people who should probably live in a tree house with a mail slot. talk to your family on skype, buy your books on amazon, get your food by delivery. but don't trash talk my bookstore.

and to the people who think amazon is improving people's access to information, you're only partially right. if they become the main way people get their information (at least the book form) then they get to control the flow of information, and just wait till someone you don't like or someone who doesn't like you gets ahold of the search algorithms. wait, that's what started all this, isn't it...

@16 & @19:
Amazon isn't responsible for the collapse of our economy. Neither is Walmart, as much as I can't stand what it's done to small towns across the country. These are companies that have grown because they offer more value than their smaller competitors. Companies that give you more for less are engines of the economic growth. That's how real wealth is generated.

The economy collapsed because of stupid real estate investing on the part of consumers and banks. The real estate bubble of the last 5 years was purely psychological with no fundamentals to back it up. Now that the psychology has changed, the economy is contracting accordingly.

But Amazon? It has solid fundamentals. That makes it part of the solution, not the problem.

"Amazon has never recommended a book to me that has changed my life, but real, living booksellers do this all the time."

Dude's life is getting changed on the reg thanks to local booksellers.

To me, the value of a local bookstore is the possibility of getting a book the instant I decide to buy, instead of waiting 2 to 4 days for delivery. For that I'm willing to pay a higher price. However, if a bookstore doesn't see fit to stock the books I want, then I see no problem ordering them through Amazon.

Propping up failing businesses out of nostalgia does not work.

I recently placed my first book order from Amazon, and I learned my lesson. The book was Scratch Beginnings by Adam Shepard. It's not rare, it's not old, and it's neither so new nor so popular that a copy should be hard to come by. Amazon showed many copies available. I could have requested it from my local bookseller, and it would have been here in two to four weeks, but according to Amazon, I was going to get it within days if I ordered it from them. Uh huh. It took six weeks, and during that time neither they nor I had any idea where it was (nor what bookstore they had ordered it from, it seems), and Amazon had already taken my money for it. If I had ordered it from my local bookstore, it still might have taken six weeks, though I doubt it, but I wouldn't have paid for it until I actually picked it up.
I agree that Amazon may be a boon for the rural bibliophile, but for city-dwellers, the local bookstore is the way to go. (And, while we're on the subject of public libraries, I asked my library for it several weeks before I broke down and bought it, and it's still not in the catalogue. Not even an On Order record.

One thing that actual, physical bookstores will always have over Amazon: Browsing. It's all about the browsing. And by that I don't mean a list of similar books - but the glory of finding something strange and wonderful that you may never have thought of on your own. Be it a display of a bookseller's favorite titles (those recommendation racks are always my first stop), books relating to a current event, or even something that I stumble across in a section that I would never look at on line (say, religion) but will always amusedly browse on the shelves.

Anyway, I don't think the on-line purchasing option is evil, and I don't bemoan people for choosing to shop that way. I do it myself sometimes when I am lazy or know exactly what I want and don't feel like hunting for it (though on Amazon I almost always buy from one of their partner sellers, which often offers the same books for used prices -- and still supports indie stores). But the elusive power and joy of browsing is one thing that actual physical bookstores (and record stores and knick knack shops, ets) have over Amazon and their ilk any day.

This feels like bizarro slog... It went from being a bunch of commie pinkos to corporate apologists seemingly overnight.

Can we all agree that it's a bad thing if Amazon becomes a monopoly, as it seems possible it might be becoming?

It's not that this was a deliberate act -- it's the fact that a "glitch" could instantly remove these books from existence. And based on the nature of their catalog or the nature of our culture, the books that got delisted all dealt with marginalized people. In a world with nothing but Amazon and Borders, this essentially means the books are gone.

I'm not saying we should support overpriced local stores (i.e. ones with a markup beyond the actual suggested price of an item), but capitalism flourishes through competition. And small business do play an important role in the creation of community.

None of this is that complicated!

seandr:

Amazon isn't responsible for the collapse of our economy. Neither is Walmart, as much as I can't stand what it's done to small towns across the country. These are companies that have grown because they offer more value than their smaller competitors. Companies that give you more for less are engines of the economic growth. That's how real wealth is generated.

Have you seen the documentary about Wal-Mart? Your "real wealth" is going straight to the top of the company and the rest isn't even staying within our borders. There is no trickle down here. I'm more in favor of everyone getting a little more richer than some of us getting incredibly richer.

Becca@40,
Thanks for the link, I didn't know that existed. It does not give me a listing of only books available in Seattle. Maybe I am using it wrong, I don't know. Fnarf, of course I don't know what will replace these stores, but maybe a barber shop, clothing store, bar, or restaurant? Something that is supported by the community, and not available online.
Paul, I'm sure shop owners were worried about the Sears/Roebuck catalog costing them business and altering the retail landscape at the turn of the century. It did. It wasn't the end of the world. I'm not a fan of trickle down economic anything, but Amazon is very different than WalMart in many ways. I'm sorry some of your book community is hurting, but such is the nature of being in business. If these same book store owners struck it rich and opened 20 stores, would they share their profits lavishly with all their employees and customers? Would they then become the enemy because of scale?. Spend your money where you feel comfortable, and I'll do the same. I don't like most large corporations or the way the do business, but I do like Amazon. I don't like Microsoft, but I do like Google. These are decisions we make as consumers.

Wow. Maybe this is against blogging etiquette but this discussion made me think of this poem by James Tate and I'm gonna post it - I apologize in advance if I've committed a heinous act...

Memory

A little bookstore used to call to me.
Eagerly I would go to it
hungry for the news
and the sure friendship.
It never failed to provide me
with whatever I needed.
Bookstore with a donkey in its heart,
bookstore full of clouds and
sometimes lightning, showers.
Books just in from Australia
books by madmen and giants.
Toucans would alight on my stovepipe hat
and solve mysteries with a few chosen words.
Picasso would appear in a kimono
requesting a discount, and then
laugh at his own joke.
Little bookstore with its belly
full of wisdom and confetti,
with eyebrows of wildflowers -
and customers from Denmark and Japan,
New York and California, psychics
and lawyers, clergymen and hitchhikers,
the wan, the strong, the crazy,
all needing books, needing directions,
needing a friend, or a place to sit down.
But then one day the shelves began to empty
and a hush fell over the store.
No new books arrived.
When the dying was done,
only a fragile, tattered thing remained,
and I haven't the heart to name it.

- James Tate

sigh...I like Paul but he's a bit bonkers when it comes to the selling of books...he hates the Barnes & Nobles/Borders/B Dalton/Waldenbooks type of chain book store and he hates Amazon...apparently the only true bookbuying experience can be had at 'ye olde quaint local book emporium', which I love but they're not, and they never were, the dominant force in the bookselling business. (And, yes, we should support them as much as we can.)

and who the hell goes to bookstores to have a meaningful experience with a clerk? Booklovers go to bookstores to BROWSE...I don't need to have a cheery book chat with an English major with a low wage job about the fabulous world of books...I AM that person and so are most of my friends and I'll get my book info from them, the NY Times and various and sundry websites. And for every delightful clerk/owner in an indie bookstore I've come across three who were either clueless about books or only invested in the kinds of books THEY love or a snotty, know it all grungie hipster, (my favorite example: a very attractive female friend of mine bought a pile of Nazi/WWII themed books to use as research for her novel at Powells in Portland. The male grungie clerk sneered at her, "Shouldn't you be buying chicklit?")

And I'm also guessing that a majority of booklovers commenting on this thread (myself included) probably buy a large number of their books from USED bookstores like HalfPrice Books or other local used stores which means we're ripping off the publishers and writers of the books since they're not getting any cut of that transaction...

Howdy @Seattle Bike Guy. This isn't a rejoinder so much as a comment: At least one Seattle bookstore did have profit sharing for all its employees (as I understand it, fairly lucrative profit sharing) until 1999, when the bookstore wars heated up and profits got lowered to next-to-nothing. Nobody gets into books to get rich. We get into it because we love it. But some of us have families to feed, and that's always gotta take precedence.

Around 2000, Seattle lost a flock of real career booksellers—people who wanted to be booksellers if they could earn a livable wage—because the lack of profitability pushed them into other fields. I think the lazy, cheap booksellers @michael strangeways is talking about are actually a symptom of Amazon, rather than a problem with bookselling.

And @michael strangeways: I'm not talking about keeping the publishing system intact. Used bookstores don't bother me in the least. I'm talking about having a bookstore that has knowledgeable employees and is actually suited for its environment. The bookstore that most often fits that description is the local independent bookstore.

wait, fnarf, are you voting for independent bookstores or for amazon? i see you playing the both card...

@53: I think Fnarf is going for making a nuanced point.

I was a little "huh" at first too, but his points all make sense when taken together.

Most people understand that boycotts are pointless, and exhorting people to support local businesses is a lost cause. If things have gotten so bad that your only hope his for pundits to lecture the public about their duty to keep you in business, you're a goner. I rarely shop at Wal-Mart or Babies-R-Us. Fred Meyer is the one that really gets on my nerves, for whatever reasons. But I'm not boycotting them entirely. I just shop where I enjoy shopping and where I think I'll get good results. And actually the local stores have lots of advantages in getting my business: they're close, I know their names and what they sell, and the can be the most convenient choice. They ought to build on that.

What they should not do is say I have to support them because I read that as saying they can't think of any other good reason for me to shop there.

Well run indie bookstores with good locations and savvy owners who know how to play to their market will always have a place in communities. But they're going to have to know how to co-exist with the Amazons and Borders of the world and provide the experiences that those businesses cannot.

@23 wrote "This fetishization of the physical edifice rather than the information is how librarians lost their role as custodians of information (now held by computer scientists) and became shelvers of books instead."

That's not the best analogy. Librarians are still very much custodians of information (e.g., http://www.hathitrust.org ).