Comments

2
Why is he mad? He has a statue under the bridge.
3
@2

LOL! That was awesome!

And I fucking hate Trump and would pay good money to watch him get fisted by bodybuilding with a boxing glove on and I hate alt-right douche monkeys. But, Lenin was a mass murderer and that ugly statue should be destroyed. And yes, it has a special place of reverence for the alt-left. They don't see this icon of their leader as "ironic" or "quirky".

If people are pissed about statues of cuckfederate assholes (and they are right to do so, I agree) they should also be pissed about a statue to this asshole.

And these Trumpist, while buffoons, have better watch out. The antifa/alt-left, all of whom love Lenin, are probably going to come after them.
4
I hate Washington-state Nazis.
5
If it's a monument, it appears to be in the Dothraki tradition.
6
And if Charles Mugabe is "not a fan" of the statue, why the fuck would he be so angry if someone painted Lenin's hands red for the blood that asshole has on it?

Marxists: can't live with em...can't find a free helicopter to throw them out of.
7
ok alt-right, you guys named yourselves that, we do not call ourselves on the left, the alt-left, so please stop. and while you're at it, stop being sissy little snowflakes!
8
Please stop using the term Alt-Left. It was created by Nazi fuckturds and when you use it you are just as bad as the idiots protesting this statue.
9
@6 go back to r/physical_removal. oh wait...
10
@8
And "Islamophobia" was a term coined by Islamists, and the term "politically correct" was coined my Mao. So what? If the jackboot fits, those communists assholes should wear it.
11
I'm a socialist and I don't really care about the statue or Lenin. go ahead, tear it down. Maybe we could put a statue of someone more relevant to Seattle history. Sir Mix-a-Lot. It's amusing they think this get us butthurt marching with tiki torches.
12
@9

So by calling Trumpists and buffoons and calling the confederacy "assholes," I am a neo-nazi? Ok...

This is how the alt-left works: anyone who is anti-communist is a Nazi to them. I guess Civil Rights leader Bayard Rustin is also a Nazi...despite the whole being black and gay thing.
13
@7
You know, maybe "alt-left" isn't such a good term...

HELICOPTER DROPPINGS! Now that sounds more like it.
14
Nobody except Trump uses the term "alt-left" in actual conversation to refer to antifa or socialists or whatever you're trying to talk about. Well, Trump and now you. Enjoy.
15
A statue of Lenin in Fremont on private property is not meant to intimidate anyone and I doubt it is even a ringing endorsement of Russian Communism. If anything it's a remind of Fremont's past as a funky, artsy neighborhood.

A Confederate memorial on the other hand serves no other purpose when placed in a public space (or within public view on private property) serves only to remind people of color that there is a large segment of Americans that pine for the good old days of Jim Crow and the glory of the antebellum South.
16
Yawn, the deflection is getting old.
17
@15

Why not ask Tibetans or Ukrainians if they like that statue of the Red furher

@14 And no one uses "social justice" aside from Marxists.
but yeah, "copter droppings" is a better term for the Marxists twits. I will be using that from now on.
17
Posobiec & co: Grandstanding media cucks.
18
There was a long stretch a few years back when Lenin got marked up pretty regularly - the red paint on the hands, words like "shame" and so forth. Somebody used to try to clean it but I guess they eventually gave up. I imagine the patina is all messed up.

@2 That's a neat mind-reading trick. Do it again - I'm thinking of a number....
19
"The cancer was aggressive. And the chemotherapy treatment was also aggressive. There was aggression on 'both sides'! The chemo came charging at the cancer! It was a terrible, vicious day."
20
@17 - So you wish (some) people would die in a horrible fashion. That's very morally upstanding of you! Glad to see someone is setting the bar.
21
IS the Lenin statue private property? If no, then take it down. If Yes, not ours to take down. Case closed.
22
I guess some people don't understand what are trophy's are.

The Lenin statue is a war trophy... of a war we won.
24
23: So would a statue of Hitler, but no halfway decent person would even think of putting one up. Why does a symbol of oppression get a pass just because the intent is "good" or "ironic"? Would one of these removed Jefferson Davis statues get a pass if we placed it next to Lenin and painted his hands red? That would be another war trophy for a conflict we won, or would the intent not matter in that case?

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative or obtuse, I'm asking folks if they can be intellectually consistent in their opposition to symbols of oppression.
25
Does the lenin statue cause victims of oppression truama? If yes take it down.
26
@17: Care to take back your assertion on the other thread that no one would protest this statue for fear of death threats by anti-fascists?
Look! There they are! Why aren't you out there with them? You're perfectly safe because frankly nobody on the left gives a fuck about defending it. Why would they? Ya'll want to work yourself up about it knock yourself self out. Maybe that pizza gate guy will bring snacks.
27
@22 It ended up in Seattle as the result of an eccentric art preservation effort. Its privately owned and on private property. I've heard its for sale, so if people hate it that much, they can pass the hat, buy the thing and melt it down.

It used to bug me a lot when it was getting graffitti all the time. But in a bougie sort of way - it looked messy and unkempt. So I guess that's another layer of irony on the thing.
28
that thing where people who call themselves conservative or libertarian or whatever don't understand the difference between public and private property
29
I thought the Trumpists LIKED Russia. Are they just hoping it will help them one more time?
30
1. If the Lenin statue is on private property, then it is in a completely different category from the Confederate statues that have been at issue. For example, unlike with the Confederate statues in North Carolina, or Alabama, which those states have protected by making their removal illegal, a law banning or promoting dismantling of Lenin statues in WA would not apply, because those laws only apply to public property.

2. Unlike the false argument made for leaving up Confederate statues (with their epitaphs glorifying treason and slave owning society), the Lenin statue WAS put there as a museum artifact, of historical, artistic, and novelty value. It was not erected as a positive memorial to Lenin's nobility in the service of a political movement of wholesale suppression of the political rights of an entire category of citizenry as were most of the the Confederate statues, which were mostly erected during times of increased suppression of African-American civil rights long after the end of the Civil War.

Let's not confuse the issue: positive memorials to treason and slave owning society maintained on public land left in their original prominent locations where they were intended to be active symbols of white dominated social structures.
31
28: And Lenin didn't? What's the magic number in genocide between sorta evil and really evil?
33
This is classic righty obfuscation, like NRA members after Sandy Hook diverting the discussion away from unfettered gun proliferation by arguing about inaccuracies in reporting the caliber of the ammunition used in the killings.
34
@32, he must be confusing the two, of note, Lenin denounced his apparent successor Joseph Stalin before his death. For a group making an argument along lines of historical significance, one would think that they might want to read up on the details of history. Details are significant after all....
35
They will get bored and leave, and Vlad will still be standing tall!
36
Hey Rich Smith, you know this is bullshit deflection & derailment... why'd you give these simplistic media cucks so much attention? Can't look away from the impending authoritarian demise of the USA?
37
32: Uh, actually, he did. From the Red Terror entry on Wikipedia:
However, the term was frequently applied to Bolshevik political repression during the whole period of the Civil War (1917–1922)...Estimates for the total number of people killed during the Red Terror range from 10,000 to over 1.5 million.
39
But @33 is right, in the end, I've gone way too far down this deflection rabbit hole.
40
And yet GS pulls me back in with that incredibly stupid statement @38. So Lenin had nothing to do with the Red Terror? Really?
42
This "protest" is about as dumb as middle schooler-me's argument with vegans. I'd say something like, "Well what about grass? Shouldn't we put up a sign that says no walking on the grass?" and thinking I was clever. Obviously I didn't care about the grass, I was just pulling a "What about..." rather than seriously confront the ethics involved in veganism.

Fortunately most people's critical thinking evolves beyond high school, but there's a contingent of privileged white dudes who are still that dumb and put on a protest like this. (By the way, in case you were wondering, I've been vegetarian since high school).
43
@24 historical reality aside, if you really think that Lenin is as n iconic a historical villain as Adolf Hitler, then you're crazy. Not many American citizens were effected by Lenin's purges, death squads, or pogroms. The worst of which were carried out under Stalin. America was not involved in the Russian revolution. We were involved in WWII and our own Civil War.

There ARE many Americans who fought in WWII. And there ARE many American Jews who lost loved ones in the holocaust.

Most American have no fucking clue who Lenin is or what he looked like. But they know who Hitler is.

Americans may not recognize Robert E. Lee but they for sure know what the Confederacy is and what it stood for and that is heart of the schizm of amerces racist history.

So on the level of pure iconography these are not comaprible.

If you can prove there is reasonably sized portion of Russian Americans who are grossly offended by the war trophy, then sure, tear it down.

But that's not what this is. This is to the white supremacists of the At-Right just a gotcha they can distract mouth breathers with. They don't give a shit about this statue.
44
41: You're correct, President Trump, there were many sides.
45
@37 - it's hard to take seriously any citation where the estimates "range from 10,000 to over 1.5 million."
46
10 or 20 years ago the suggestion to remove Lenin would've been laughable, since everyone easily understood it's context as part of the collection of Fremont kitsch monuments, and an ironic war trophy from a defeated enemy and their ideology. But now that Russian power is resurgent, the federal government is paralyzed, wealth inequality is increasing, and society is rapidly devolving into factions, the rise of Leninism isn't the punch line it once was. I'm not saying Lenin should be torn down, but it might be time to pack it away for safe keeping.
47
@26
I never said no one would protest it, just that they would get death threats from the red goon squad
@28 you and everyone else: the Stranger just ran a story TODAY about people wanting to get rid of a confederate grave marker on private property. And I am not saying it should be destroyed by the government, just saying it is an eye soar dedicated to a tyrant and it should be taken down. Free speech is also a libertarian virtue.
@32
Tibet is under communist oppression. Lenin was the first communist despot. Just as African Americans would be upset at a statue of Hitler, Tibetan are probably not too keen on a statue of Lenin. And as for his crimes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror

And @30 it is a disgusting piece of propaganda from a murderous regime. Would you be okay with a statue of Mussolini being parked in Fremont? I mean, it would be "quirky" and "ironic"?

They should replace it with a colossus of Bruce Lee, one of the most famous and greatest residents of Seattle. Now watch, someone somehow will find a way to make my statement of support for a statue of Bruce Lee in replace of Lenin as a sign that I am a white supremacist...
48
@43 - while I agree with your sentiments, America WAS involved in the Russian Revolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_E…

50
@43

So you would be okay with a quirky statue of Ayn Rand under a platform that reads "you are entitled to NOTHING?" Are you really gonna argue that Ayn Rand caused as many deaths as Lenin?
51
@24 The historical contexts of the Lenin and the Confederate statue erections are ridiculously dissimilar. On the one hand, the Lenin statue was basically a novelty from a failed state, whereas the Confederate statues were erected with malice as dog whistles for white supremacy during the Jim Crow era.

Not really comparable.

This is just a bunch of white nationalists trying hard to invent symbols of an imagined enemy to rally against.
52
43: "Not many American citizens were effected by Lenin's purges, death squads, or pogroms." Well, who were those soldiers killed in Korea or Vietnam fighting? But, put that aside. Then, using that logic, you'd be ok with an ironic statue of, say, Pol Pot?

Again, I really don't mean to be so argumentative; I enjoy Slog for the engaging (and mostly) civil discussion. I hope you understand my desire to be respectful of your (and others) views.
53
The other big difference between the Confederacy monuments and the Lenin statue? Thousands of liberals aren't strapping on paramilitary gear and hefting AR's to go down there and defend it.

I mean. Tear it down. Go ahead. It's a dumb fucking thing to do but we're not going go crying about "waaaaaah, our precious heritage!" Three days later we'd forget it was even there.
54
@47, Do you have some sort of brain disorder that prevents you from dealing directly with an argument? Literally every comment you ever make is 'why do you care about this thing when there is that other thing?' I don't have a single fuck to spare about a statue of lenin or the confederacy or any statue anywhere on anyone's private property. It's none of my business because that is how private property works. That is my singular fucking point.

If you want to argue over a confederate memorial on a piece of private land go find someone who thinks it should be taken down and tell them what an idiot they are. I am simply pointing out that anyone who claims to be an American patriot or a libertarian or whatever self-congratulatory political title they assign themselves who is arguing to tear down a statue on private property is announcing to the world they are a fucking moron.
55
"...ironic statue of, say, Pol Pot?"

On private property? Sure, can we dress it in funny hats?

No. Sorry man, you lost this dumb line of argument a long time ago.
56
Ironically, it was Lenin and the Soviet propagandists that perfected this Tu quoque "whataboutism" logical fallacy.

"What about a statue of John Wayne Gacey?!, Huh? What about that!"

I'd assume these people that keep using it would want to keep the Lenin statue as a monument to shitty argumentation.
58
@32 @34

Have you ever heard of Lenin's Hanging Order? No? How about Decossackization?

Or more broadly, did either of you learn about the Red Terror in school? You know, the series of mass killings before Stalin's purges, initiated and led by Lenin? "It is necessary – secretly and urgently to prepare the terror" -- Lenin said that, not Stalin.

Lenin was no Stalin, true enough. But Lenin absolutely did order the murder of tens of thousands of human beings.

I guess that won't meet your requirements if you only consider killers of millions of people to be Bad Despots, but it's more than enough for me.

As to this statue of 'Ol Murderbeard... yeah, market solution, alt-right goons. The thing is for sale, if you don't like it where it is right now, just buy it and do whatever you like with it.
59
@57
Yep, citing sources and being consistent is the same as a "sandwich board man". Unlike that perfectly reasonable Sawant, who just says factories should be seized soviet style, but still got elected: http://mynorthwest.com/24960/socialist-s… And I might add, the Stranger endorsed her.

@54 ahh...they are talking about getting rid of a confederate monument on private property here: http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/08/… So the may of (I'm assuming) your city is mad about a monument in a private cemetery...but is silent about a propaganda statue in a public square?

@52 I agree 100%. Every statue of every politician who ever lived should be destroyed if they are on tax payer funded land. I also support burning any AmeriKKKan flag found on public property that is property of the AmeriKKKan government, a government that has—and still does—violent suppress people of color.

But I forgot: I'm a Nazi cause I don't like Lenin...
60
@59
OH MY GOD YOU'RE DOING IT AGAIN
NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT SAWANT EXCEPT YOU RIGHT NOW BECAUSE YOU BROUGHT HER UP
I AM NOT THE MAYOR OF SEATTLE IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY THE MAYOR IS DOING A THING ASK THE FUCKING MAYOR
DO YOU EVEN READ BRO?????
61
@43, I agree with your post, but to be pedantic, USA *was* involved in the Russian Civil War. We landed a small force, a division I think, at Vladivostok. We also gave financial aid and supplies to the White Army. It amounted to nothing, like the various other nations that did so as well: UK, France, Japan, even Italy & Greece.

@54, It's called "changing the subject," and it's a rhetorical tactic used by people who have lost the argument but want to pretend that it's still going, so they create a battlefield that they feel they have some standing. eg. A: Slavery in America was a horrible crime against humanity. B: Oh yeah? Well, Americans weren't the only ones who kept slaves!

Anyone who uses the Trump-invested phrase "alt-left" is actually supporting him, no matter their claims to the contrary. There is a strong progressive movement in America, there is a group calling themselves 'Antifa', there are people dedicated to the Democratic Party, and there are simply decent people who feel that every American deserves justice. They certainly don't all agree with one another, but to Trump, anyone who isn't a mindless sycophant is plotting against him. By using the term, you join in his insane paranoia.
62
With Bannon allegedly having a hard-on for Comrade Lenin, the layers of irony pile up like so much sedimentary rock.
63
i dont think we would have been able to tear that sucker down
64
If you hate that Lenin statue SO MUCH C_S why don't you come on over from your Free Market Paradise on the Eastside and help those poor alt-right bros tear it down? With any luck, you'll be as adept at dismantling a seven ton piece of cast bronze as you are at everything else, and it'll crush the lot of you, and we'll finally be rid of your pointless, inane, puerile caterwauling.

And for those of you still following this scintillating debate, here's a little history of the statue and how it got here.
65
Hey Posobiec, why don't you organize a good old fashioned book burning? I'm sure your anti-education alt-right buddies will *love* it!
66
@50 If you financed and mounted an Ayn Rand statue in a public place like this, i would totally dig it. But, I promise to deface her by painting her hands red, her face green and putting a big dollar sign on her back, and you would have to not get mad at me.
67
Just leave it alone. The original purpose may have come and gone but it's there, were used to it and we will regret moving it.
68
The conservative mind is small and suspicious. It is not able to grasp nuance, and especially irony. The people who make their livings off the conservative mind know this, and play up to the ignorance.

A statue of Vladimir Lenin in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in one of the most expensive cities in the country is hilarious. It plays into the neighborhood caricature of itself as the center of the universe. Fremont is the opposite of everything that Soviet Communism stood for, yet there's the USSR's standard bearer, right there in the middle of it, and treated as an object of camp.

And for all his atrocities, Lenin never attacked the United States. He never lead an army against us. The USSR didn't become an official enemy of the USA until many years after his death.
69
OK, so being conservative today means you don't give a shit about:

1. Private property rights
2. Free speech
3. Free enterprise
4. Mocking symbols of the dead Soviet empire
5. Local self-determination

No right to do what you want with your statue on your land, because Lenin. No right to say whatever the fuck you want to say, because Lenin. No right to promote your food court with a big weird statue, because Lenin. No making trophies out of Soviet relics, because Lenin. Fremont locals do not get to decide for themselves what statues to put up, because Lenin.

So let's say you're one of the people who still does believe in these things. You can't even call yourself a paleoconservative because that label is used by fucking mercantilist Trump fans. You're not a libertarian, apparently. They don't seem to see Lenin as a piece of private property either, or as a man's self-expression. Libertarians don't seem appreciate that Taco del Mar tacos ain't going to sell themselves.

Where is someone who still believes that stuff even supposed to go today? It's like the closest thing you can find to a party that will defend any of this stuff is, well, the Democrats. Makes you wonder.
70
Tear it down, don't tear it down. The alt right are racist babies and we have a president who supports them, shit is really fucked up:(

But just a point of wrt to "private land" arguement, Lake View is private land...

http://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/08/…

Anyways fuck the alt-right.
71
A second the idea of a Sir Mix-a-lot statue, either way.
72
@69 well hold the phone, points 1, 2, 3 and 4 are clearly off the board in the today's climate. It doesn't matter than it's your land, what matters that it exists. Do you really think, in terms of the impact on society and in particular 'the oppressed', it matters that someone has a David Duke statue because it's on private (yet public) land, or that they're using it as an instrument of free speech or free enterprise?
73
@7 @8 the (whatever you want to call them) don't call themselves Nazi's. Germans don't even call themselves Germans.
74
The excuses you cancerous lesions are making are astounding. Half the Confederate statues being targeted ARE on private property. Yet they're still being targeted.

If there were any "eccentric, funky" sculpture of Hitler giving a salute in the same location, i think it's guaranteed that all of you would viciously oppose it and want it taken down for being hateful.

Admit it, you don't care about the 100 million killed by communism. That's what you want for the world
75
"Half the Confederate statues being targeted ARE on private property."

Excuse me?
76
I kinda love the Lenin statue. It's tongue in cheek - a communist icon/artwork that is privately owned and sits on private property. On top of that.... IT's FOR SALE. If you're a righty then why would you ever want to tear it down?

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