Columns Oct 8, 2009 at 4:00 am

Hets: Get Married



see my comment @ comment # 80.

Read it.

Others have given that same advice.

You've been given the advice you sought. Now ignore ALL THE REST, and make your decision.
Dan, this is such a disappointing week... You made up the first question so you could promote charities, and you don't like Glee. You don't like GLEE!? You're flat out lying. No one who watches it doesn't love it. It's the best show on TV right now. And I really don't respect liars.
Thank you guys.
And I know I don't NEED a guy right now.
I can make it on my own.
I have a good job, I'm now working at a clothing store.
I'm not getting defensive.
but being called a troll and a liar just kind of, make me want to prove more.
Even though I shouldn't have to.
I just want someone who will be willing to treat my baby girl as theirs, even if we aren't together.
That is how I'm happy.
I had someone treat me like that.
Someone only two years older than me.
He treated me like he was my father, he never let me down unless he absolutely had to.
He was also my friend.

This is what I want for my little girl.
I don't want a relationship.
It may or may not happen that way,
but either way,
a good man in her life will help her.

I will tell Andrew when he comes over either tonight or tomorrow.
We'll sit and have a talk about it because I'm not just going to tell him, then let him walk away.
Thank you to Thoughtful atm.
That really helped.
@68 - what i am personally okay with is irrelevant.

would i ever participate in such a relationship? absolutely not.

would i be supportive if a friend wished to participate in such a relationship? probably not.

does that make it at all my business what anyone else chooses to do? definitely not.
I noticed no one bothered to ask how old little miss cinderella is... I'd say 17 tops.

I remember when I was 17 and knew everything and could do it all by myself. Anyone who stood in my way with such silly things as "reasonable advice" just didn't know what they were talking about.

Boy those days were fun.
Cinderella... please, give the baby up for adoption to someone who's desperately ready, willing, and joyously able to be a parent... better yet, two parents! I'm begging you. You're not ready...and that's an understatement. You're a child yourself. This is not a time to try on parenthood and hope for the best. Crikey, it's a child, not a doll!

Please just do your best to stay healthy while the kid's inutero, and do the most selfless, generous, miraculous thing any mother can do--the thing that won't screw up his life. There are lots of ways to do it and stay in the baby's life (preferably from the sidelines). How do I know? Cause I did it 25 years ago, and it was the smartest thing I ever did. I picked the parents... two stellar people I knew very well... The kid's a scientist now, a wonderful, centered, non-fucked up human being, and is incredibly grateful for what I did.
I never regretted if for a second. Hurt like hell at first, but I knew I could reproduce anytime I wanted, and they couldn't. Later, I became a parent, and loved it... but only when the baby was more important than which boy liked me. Just sayin.
@106, thank you for your selfless act and your beautifully beautifully written words. I wish more people on this planet were like you.
Cinderella, sweetie,
my heart goes out to you. Especially when I read the horrible things people here are saying to you. (Some of you are outright cowards who would never say any of those things if you had to do it while looking her in the eye...Illogical, Jimand, you suck.)

Let's look at the facts. Your father was an asshole. I had one of those too. What I learned there (finally) was that when girls don't have a decent dad, they search out that bond we never had... with every guy who comes down the pike. That's why you've had four pregnancies.

Now, YOU came here seeking advice. Rudeness and outright stupidity aside, what you got was not what you expected, because these people saw a bigger problem than the one you saw. That's why some called you immature. And sweetie, you are immature. That's what happens when you're young. (BTW, how old are you?) Parenthood changes your life, and you don't even know what yours is about yet.

I'll never tell you to have an abortion, and the minute you said you were against it, these people should have shut the hell up about it. But I'm going to ask you to keep your mind open about adoption. Don't feel threatened, or get defensive (and yes, my dear, you have been defensive. YOU get to make the decision. But please, fully weigh your options, and look how the deck is stacked against you and your child before you make that decision. You have to have a plan, and a good one that makes sense. That's the mark of maturity.

Now... about Andrew. Yes, of course, tell him. Honesty is always the best policy. Tell Eddy too... he needs to pony up for his share of this enourmous task (he gets no choice, but that's another story). That support might only be monetary. You can't make him a good dad. You can't make Andrew one either. They're both just kids too. Who knows how they'll turn out? Your dad was probably just a fun-loving, handsome guy before he ruined your life too.

One more thing...
Imagine your childhood with a wonderful father. Imagine how different your life would be now. Imagine how much easier your mother's life would be... and your siblings. If you'd had the loving support of two committed parents, do you think you'd be in this mess right now? Without a good father, the same thing can happen to Haley. I'm asking you to put her needs before your own. Break the cycle. I did. I gave my son up for adoption. It hurt like hell for about a year. But I knew his life was wonderful, filled not just with love, but with committment and attention and consistency and all the things I wasn't grown up enough to give him. Love just isn't enough. That's the thing about kids... they don't wait. They need what they need and they need it NOW. This isn't a dress rehearsal. Mistakes matter. The thought that I could do real damage, all the while loving this child with all my heart, was what made me realize that his need for the best parents (notice the plural) was greater than my selfish need to keep him.

Adoption could be the greatest gift you can give. Promise you'll really think about it.

Thanks, wish, you made my day! You're a peach!
@106/108 - you're an amazing, wonderful person. i hope this child is wise enough to listen to you.
I wonder often if transgendered people aren't victims of something far worse than bigotry. I wonder if they are victims of a niche medical and psychological community desperate for recognition and money enough to exacerbate what is already a serious case of Body Dysmorphic DIsorder. They hide their greed behind a politicized community while making hundreds of thousands of dollars from poor and ultimately unperfectable cosmetic surgeries and lifetime leashes to bigpharma. These hundreds of thousands of dollars add up to a multimillion dollar industry based on pandering and deceit. The idea that "the stork made a mistake" or "god made a mistake," is absolute rubbish. There is no stork or god to make a mistake. But there are poorly equipped parents and peers who don't know how to handle people who fall outside of their narrow definitions of "femininity" and "masculinity". And there is a self-justifying yet ironically simultaneously self-denying subculture of people willing to tell one another what they want to hear from others themselves. But none of this makes it true. It kills me that so many people are being victimized and that nobody is looking into it. "Straights" wouldn't be taken seriously if they did since any "straight" criticism of "queer" behavior is simply dismissed as "conservative" or "queer-bashing" and "queers" won't look into it because they are terrified to unravel the web of comforting deceit that they base way too much of their self-identity on. There is no such thing as a "transman" but there are confused and dejected women with mutilated vaginas, steroid addictions (and all the benefits that go with that, including roid rage), and completely forfeited reproductive futures who grew up not feeling "pretty enough." There is no such thing as a "transwoman" but there are confused and dejected men with mutilated penises and lifetime reliances on depilatories, additional surgeries, and lifetime addictions to pfizer supplied hormones who grew up not feeling "manly enough". I feel a lot of sympathy for these people because not only does the rest of the world not accept them for who and what they are, but they don't accept themselves for who and what they are and surrender themselves to a lifetime barely guilded cage. It's too bad that most people will dismiss my statement as "homophobic" or "square" or whatever without considering the implications of the huge scam that is victimizing people by playing to their egos without considering that what I write here, I write out of concern for people I consider victims of a big scam. Deceit and self-delusion never made anyone healthy. Pandering is disgusting. It is all cosmetic and superficial, just like Beverly Hills wives and their tit jobs, lipo, and collagen injections.
how is babby formed? how man become father figger?
I'm 20 actually.
And as for all that.
I understand.
I have thought about it.
This is my plan:
If I have not come up with a living situation of my OWN, means of better support, and everything I need for Hayley,
I will give her up for adoption.
I know someone who is looking.
They're very nice people, 35 and 39 years old.
They would teach the baby well and they agreed that the baby will know I'm her mother,
but they will be her adoptive parents.
I will have everything to do with her I possibly can.
But they will play the parents.
I have not talked to Eddy yet because he isn't answering his phone.
Nobody is.
Andrew's at the Fryeburg Fair.
So therefore, I won't bug him.
It's better to tell him in person anyways.

I know parenting won't be easy.
I don't expect it to be.
But I know I can do it, even if there are problems.
I'll get through it.
I'm strong and I'm determined.
So if I am ready and I can do this,
I will.
I'm not perfect,
I know motherhood isn't perfect.
But I know how it feels to hold a baby in your arms and know she's all yours, that you created that miracle.
I want to feel that.
Even if it's just for a moment before I give her up.
@111 - would you consider all of the beverly hills women to be victims as well?
Something to consider doing- get married in a state that does allow same sex marriage. The money & support you, and we hope many more, will be showing will be noticed!
@113 - So you will give her up for adoption but want "everything to do with her you possibly can"? Isn't that a bit unrealistic? Because these people will not "Play" the parents, they will BE the parents. Giving birth doesn't make you a mom.
@116 open adoptions were invented for a reason, and a good one, too.
i call troll. still. i pulled shit like this when i was a kid, whipped forum folks into a think kids used to just throw rocks at passing cars. convenient how she produces perfect parents automatically...also, nuva ring "will be changed" every month? doc is uninvolved, you do it yourself. And if she'd really had so many pregnancies, and the doc "chose it for her", he'd have given her a low-hormone IUD ( all my friends who've had babies have these). but its been entertaining, and i love that southpark ep. that dan references...
When I was a kid I used to troll anti-gay forums and say all kinds of things to get the homophobes going. I have to say it was great fun. Probably ultimately not helpful to the civil rights movement. Looking back, I had at the time found out a younger sibling was gay and was worried for him with our rather religious parents and kids at school and all and I think it was a way to deal with the anger I felt toward people who might bully him. So if this is all made up I wonder what her underlying issue is? Maybe she wanted to get a lot of people going on abortion...She seems to have really taken that right up. And this stuff about her cheating ex sort of echoes last week's controversial love letter.

Funny too how in her original post she doesn't mention the main issue as looking for a father figure for her soon to be kid. That birth control stuff sounds totally bogus. That's either BS or she didn't know what she was doing or she was careless or trying to get pregnant. I guess "trying" given how often she says she has been pregnant.

Then again, she asked a question and didn't go into any pronouncement of ideals, so maybe it's legit. Then again, although I'm a straight woman, I would go on religious forums and say I was a hot gay man and detail all the cock I loved to suck and would say I jacked off to Jesus and was going to love pounding ass when I died and went to hell and sat back enjoying the anonymous melee to follow. And my responses would be in line with, "Whateva I do want I want." Definitely not helpful, actually.

If she's for real, all I can say is, Oh dear god.

I am suspicious that if she's real what she's really saying is, "I got pregnant with this kid by this idiot guy I really like maybemaybenot on purpose thinking it would fix his douchebaggering ways but he's still with someone else and it's breaking my heart and oh shit now I'm 4 months pregnant but there's this other guy who likes me and I maybe like him because he's nice to me and I'm scared and I really want to be in a relationship so should I take him? And I'm unconfident and don't know what I'm doing and don't want to be alone so how do I make sure I get one of these guys?"

I wouldn't have been mature enough at 20 for a kid precisely because when you're 20 you're supposed to be more worried about boys and relationships than the consequences of breeding. She's not immature for her age, she's a young woman in an uncertain situation and has a rigid set of idealistic notions in addition to youthful distraction toward stupid boys...a combination I suspect the next few years will be highly deconstructive of. One really good, secure parent is scores better than a mother with good intentions but youthful ignorance and an idiot father or an insecure substitute.

And really, her health is intertwined with her baby's since she plans to keep it, in which case she should DTMFA right now. All of them for awhile, especially if she loses pregnancies easily, which can be easily affected by stress. And then when she's emotionally settled into motherhood and physically recovered from pregnancy she should think very, very carefully about what sort of lover she needs and be careful about how quickly such a relationship escalates, taking her time, and along the process consider what father figure her suitors might make for her kid. But throwing together a makeshift family on the quick and dirty is asking to end up in a South Park existence. Dear god.
GGG in PDX - There might be a biological reason for that, too. The default biological pathway is female - that is, if an embryo with an XY makeup's development is halted in some way en route to becoming a little boy, it will default to female. There are dozens of ways an XY embryo can be born and subsequently raised female. There are no known ways in which an XX embryo will default to male development. Obviously this doesn't answer every question humans have about gender identity, but it could play a role in the phenomenon you've noticed.
In a 100,000 years or so, none of the present hysteria regarding same sex couples will matter given the deterioration of the Y chromosome. There won't be any males left and the human race will become extinct unless some method asexual reproduction is developed. Not that it will matter to any of us, we'll all be dust blowing in the wind. Sound and fury signifying nothing. And this too shall pass away.

It really is amazing how much many people value something, how important it is to them. when they can't have it(marriage) and how little something, that is incredibly precious, is valued once it freely available (the right to vote) Basic human pyschology, the value most people put on something is determined by the effort required to get it and then keep it. I guess the same thing applies to relationships.
Thanks for the trans-guys tip in Portland!
myycinderella, please get an abortion. We don't need any more offspring invested with hot tempers and rigid values like YOURS.
Anyone interested in the economics of marriage should read the recent NYT article, "The High Price of Being a Gay Couple":… . IMO, it makes more sense to highlight the legal and economic discrimination that bans on gay marriage create than to continue to engage with religious conservatives on their terms.
conservatives say that gay marriage threatens straight marriage...looks like marriage inequality is what's threatening straight marriage. .
@117- I believe that open adoptions are a wonderful thing, but its about what's best for the child. It seems like it would be quite confusing for the child growing up- their birth mom in their life as much as possible, but not all the time? I guess I don't think parenting is a part time job. In this situation specifically, it seems like mycinderella wants the best of both worlds, she wants to be a mommy, but only part of the time. A woman so concerned with dating while she should be focused on the child doesn't seem to be the best role model. I hope this is not the case.
@Meggleberry, it's usually a choice between open adoption and no adoption at all. I'd rather have an immature young girl an in and out presence in her child's life, and therefore feel reassured into giving that child a stable home, than be scared into trying to keep the kid and being way overwhelmed, and raising the child herself, when she really can't do it well at all.
@ 46 Justme:

Great response. But just to clarify, genetic defects due to inbreeding would typically take a generation or two to manifest. Granted the danger grows the more inline the inbreeding is (Mother/Son or Father/Daughter).

While I agree that these type of relationships shouldn't be promoted it's important to recognize that the 'Eww!' factor associated with it is socially engineered (not necessarily for a bad reason). Just think of how people would 'Eww!' at a step-brother-step-sister relationship when there's no actual genetic basis for the 'Eww!'.
Dan, Thanks so much for the reply you gave to the het couple thinking of marriage. My partner and I of 35 years got married this year in Nova Scotia, Canada because we finally could. Our niece asked us the other day if we feel any different since we got married.I told her yes. Your quote from the Supreme Court of Massachusetts decision embodies everything we've been feeling since we met.
@ 111. Wow! Good for you that you know so much. That you can divine what is so for those misguided soles with "BDD."

Have you ever met a transgendered person?

One of the smartest persons I ever met is an MTF lesbian. I can't begin to describe her brilliance as it would take volumes.

Tim transitioned to Tammy in the most deliberative way possible and she was in her early 40's when she did so. Now she is a post-op woman for close to 10 years and feels more fulfilled than at anytime she carried male genitalia.

About her parenting and rearing: She is the youngest of eight children. None of the other children are gay or transgendered. She grew up playing football and was a champion wrestler. All very male pursuits, no?

During all of those years she felt she was a woman; deep down in her bones.

I guess what I'm trying to say, unless you've walked in the shoes of someone that has these feelings, please refrain from judgment.

Certainly your points about the dollar amounts spent are well noted, you could also say the same for countless other legitimate miladies that exist. Being trans is not a malady.

I'm bored with this and you 111. Get a life so that you may let others live the life they desire.
Why no MTFs at bars that caters to gay men and lesbians? I think you'll find a good deal of homophobia in the MTF community. The idea that we are women trapped in a man's is like a get out of queerdom free card for both the trans-woman and the "admirer". This isn't true of all MTFs but more than once I've been threatened with violence when I, an MTF, identified as being queer and tag as being part of queer culture. There also is a preference among gays for masculine bodies. Hormone therapy does amazing things to our bodies and most gay men aren’t looking for a boy that looks like a girl. Larger cities likely have a few tyranny bars. There you can find one of the fabulous few but watch out for pros!
@ 131. I'm sorry. I don't understand. Are you saying that you've been "threatened with violence" from gay men and/or women?

Simply, I cannot imagine a gay man or lesbian woman that would threaten you with violence because of your reality.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something because, somewhere along the way in your post, you went incomprehensible.

What are you saying? I really don't understand.
I agree with seanat that government should get out of the marriage business and leave it to churches.

When Dan quotes the "reading" isn't it ironic that it mentions commitment and fidelity? I have been out for 20 years and monogamous gay couples are definitely in the minority. Which makes me cringe when those with the open relationship, regular 3 ways, or cheating on the side seem to be the loudest protesting for the right to marry!

But before you accuse me of being a self-hating fag, the way straight couples approach marriage is often no better. I am not a prude who thinks people should stay virgins until marriage. However I am sick of so many straight females, my own sister included, who set up house with a guy for 3, 4, 5 years (and sometimes have a kid)then decide to get "married". The parents fork out thousands of dollars and friends are supposed to pony up shower and wedding gifts, while the bride spends a couple thousand on a white dress that will be worn one time.

I'm sorry but I would have more respect for these women who swoon over their weddings if they lived alone or with their parents until the big day. Having a big obnoxious wedding after living together for years is a farce.

So let the government equalize civil union rights in tax and social law for everyone-gay and straight--without the big ceremony. For those who treat marriage as a religious sacrament, go see your priest, rabbi, or minister.

Thank you #111 for saying what needed to be said. Damn the critics who can't let go.

While I agree that in certain medical cases (like a true hermaphrodite, or extreme hormone imbalance) a physical transition to one sex may be preferable. But I am afraid that the vast majority are mentally disturbed and need counseling. Instead we have become way too quick to say "okay, you are a M/F trapped in a M/F body? then proceed with a sex change".

There was a great documentary a year or so ago (I think on Discovery Channel) that followed 3 individuals who had a sex change, then went back. It was heartbreaking to see what they put their body and minds through.

But it has become too politically correct in certain communities (and profitable in others)to discuss this frankly.
"In a 100,000 years or so, none of the present hysteria regarding same sex couples will matter given the deterioration of the Y chromosome."

Huh? You think that this wave of transexualism which has affected a fraction of a percent of men in a few countries is going to wash over India and China too, and all that poverty will be washed away by infinite wealth permitting fancy surgeries in areas of the world that can't support vaccinations?

@111, 134, psych conditions do not have bright lines dividing them. We all know the boundaries of ADD and bipolar (both surging) are sketchy. The same is probably true for transexualism, where there's a mix of BDD, a range of homosexuality, and 100% real deal wrong body stuff. But the conspiracy theory where pharma decides they're gonna make millions by inventing a fake syndrome where normal people are tricked into multilating their genitals? c'mon.
"I find that any norm or law that deviates a sexual preference, or enforces a sexual morality, to create a misery of quite a special degree. For both the difficulties involved in the repression of sexual impulses and love, and the consequences of repression are quite different from those involved in the abstention from ordinary deviance. Unlike sexual impulses and love, the impulse to steal or to wound or even to kill is not, except in a minority of mentally abnormal cases, a recurrent and insistent part of our daily life. Resistance to the temptation to commit these forms of deviance is not often, as the suppression of sexual impulses and love generally is, something which affects the development or balance of the indiivdual's emotional life, happiness, and personality."

Even though I don't like HLA Hart, he wrote that in a book about the refutation of legal moralism. I really liked it.
I'd like to add to 111 & 134 that the whole MTF enterprise, besides making profits off of people with severe delusions, depends on misogyny for its legitimacy. In the MTF mind and political movement, having boobs and a hole between your legs, and wearing make-up and high heels are the equivalent of being a woman.

Imagine the reaction if white people started declaring they felt like black people trapped in white bodies and the psychiatric, pharmaceutical, and cosmetic industries responded by selling skin darkeners and lip implants. Everyone would scream racism, and rightly so because it is racist to equate the experience of blackness to skin color and stereotypical physical traits.

There certainly would not be the extraordinary legal recognition and protection afforded to cosmetically altered men. FTM is so rare as to be statistically insignificant (even within the queer community) and irrelevant to the discussion.

There is a body of scholarship that basically establishes that except for a very small minority of genetically ambiguously gendered people, the vast majority of MTF transsexuals are sexual fetishists whose obsessive fantasies are more of possessing a woman's body than of any feelings of "being a woman". They are welcome to their fantasies and fetishes, but please spare me the political demands for equality.

And, BTW, yes, drag queens are no better than minstrel performers in black face and go to show the deep misogyny of the gay community so often reflected in Dan's almost unrelenting nasty attitude towards the woman in his columns.
111, 134, 137: There's such a thing as informed consent you know. Transpeople are not all actually so deluded by this monolithic "medical establishment" as to border on incompetent and we can make our own decisions about our bodies and our lives. Whether or not it squicks you out personally is irrelevant.
FTMs are not "statistically irrelevant" confused baby butch dykes who just need to be told they're pretty enough, and MTFs are not all really misogynists who think that woman = hole between your legs and in between your ears, and a man's arm to hang off of. We can read, we can educate ourselves, the decisions we make are our own and often reflect a lifetime of weighing the pros and cons of transition. Yeah, we're well aware that SRS (that means sex reassignment surgery, you know, getting "CUT") is not at all perfect and hormone therapy means a lifetime dependence on big pharmacy. It's not our fault the medical establishment sucks. And you know, a lot of us manage to still have decent self esteem enough to work with that and make decent lives for ourselves.

You are not a trans ally, that's fine, no one says you have to be. But unless you are concerned personally for a personal acquaintance and wish to try and persuade them not to transition out of a genuine place of respect and concern... Please. Would you kindly. Step the fuck off.
Thank you, Dan.

Your reading from the SCoMA opinion was very important. If I ever get married again, it will be one of the readings.

I just want Hayley Layne to have the best life she can be.
And at this point,
I am convinced that open adoption is the best option.
Abortion, I'm too far along,
AND not to mention I am against it as I've said before.
I don't have rigid values.
I just want my baby girl,
but I want her to have a father, and if I can't give her the best life, then I will let someone else give her the best life they can.
I know someone, they said they'd take her.
She will know about me and for the first 13 years, I will see her everyday as much as possible,
and after that it's her choice whether or not she has anything to do with me.
I wanted to wait to marry my husband too. I felt it so wrong that I could and my friends and family couldn't. But, life has to go on and we set a date. What I was able to do (and encourage others to do so too): I only used goods and services of businesses and locations that preform and cator to same sex unions. From my minister, location, even catorers! It was a little thing, but it helped ease my conscience!
ok mycinderella, it seems like you've come to a decision. Just remember to talk to the adaptive parents before about what you envision your relationship with your baby being like. I would say you should look at it more like being an Aunt or a cousin. Visiting everyday would probably be too much: every week or a few times a month or at holidays is probably more what should happen, like a relative that doesn't live in the same house. Make sure you talk to the adaptive parents about this and are clear with each other about what "open adaption" means to you.

(do NOT consider a closed adaption, it is not better for you or the child, it just creates secrets and pain)

But you should also look at what you want from your own life as well. You say you have a "good job in a clothing store". Is this where you want to be? Do you or did you have dreams for yourself? You need to get yourself to a place where you don't need these guys so much because you have your own life that is going places.
Seanat, marriage was a civil institution long before it was a religious one.
@143 exactly. it was an instution long before religion even existed.

that being said, i don't find much harm in separating the church's point of view from that of the state... provided of course the government sanctioned "civic unions" between same sex couples were EXACTLY the same as those between a man and a woman.
LOL at 137. Transgender inductry depends on misogyny? What about the misandry of suggesting having a beard and no tits and as much diack as you can buy makes you a man? Hmm? Women DO want their vag and their tits and men DO want their dicks and balls and if you lost your special bits you'd really want them back. THAT, free of any misandry or misogyny conspiracy, is sufficient explanation for TG surgery. And it's not misogynist to do drag (just silly these days). They're MOCKING gender roles and rules and they're making things more fluid not more rigid. Go take a xanax :)
No Yonush18 It will be irrelevant because the homo sapiens will go the way of the dodo bird because the y chromosome will cease to exist and all of the problems in the world caused by humans will come to an end. It will also answer the question about the extent to which climate change is caused by people. Although that won't matter all that much.
@111, 134, 137: I love how any kind of comment about trans people brings the misogynists out of the woodwork. The accusations of delusion, of misogyny, of being socially inept? I've heard it before. As a very smart cousin of mine said, "So you're becoming a member of an oppressed minority because you want it easier!? Yeah, right!" And she and I are both femme lesbians and share a lot of characteristics in common.

Right now, all by myself, I am very much more confident and comfortable in my skin than I was a year ago today. Nobody can take that away, and you cannot tell me it's wrong.

I am a woman, and your attempts to narrowly define womanhood by chromosomes is trans-misogynistic, and by what genitalia you were born with is incredibly bigoted against intersexed people.

And people like you are part of why we lose three trans people every month to violence and why 80% of the trans people who are murdered every year are trans women. People are dying because of what you call delusions. I call YOU the delusional ones.
As an ftm transsexual I frankly don't give a fuck whether anyone thinks my GID is 'real' or not. The fact is that since undergoing a sex change, I feel happier and complete. I have felt displaced since before I remember and have been in counseling since middle school. NO ONE can tell me that this is 'wrong.' No one can tell me that the 'right' therapist would have suddenly made me want to be female.

134> specifically, "But I am afraid that the vast majority are mentally disturbed and need counseling. Instead we have become way too quick to say "okay, you are a M/F trapped in a M/F body? then proceed with a sex change"."

"Way too quick," you say? Are you fucking kidding me? You are required to jump all kinds of hoops to even begin hormone replacement therapy -- including speaking with an actual THERAPIST. Yes, I did need counseling. I got it. Along with my therapist letter and my treatment.

Complete, utter hypocrisy.

My body is not your business. I won't tell you what you should have between your legs, so keep your nose out of my identity and kindly piss off.

Cases where people 'change back' are so rare you cannot even believe. And while there are more mtfs than ftms the difference is not that substantial. I do however notice more transphobia within lesbian-feminist communities than gay-feminist. Perhaps because there will always be a need for a scapegoat.
As a university student I never thought I would get married. It seemed like an anachronistic institution that was about men owning women. My first reaction when same-sex marriage rights hit the spotlight was, "Sure everyone should have the right, but why would same-sex couples want to participate in that?" It was really only after same-sex marriage was legalized (I'm canadian) that my opinion of marriage started to turn around. Same-sex marriages can't be about men owning women, and as a consequence I could see how they were about two people building a new kind of life together.

I don't think there is any need to boycott marriage, just don't get yourself into what marriage was in the past. Have the kind of marriage that is a shared life between two people (rather than between *a man* and *a woman*) and live as an example of why different-sex marriage and same-sex marriage are really the same thing.
The Iowa Supreme Court opinion also has some beautiful language:
"In this case, we must decide if our state statute limiting civil marriage to a union between a man and a woman violates the Iowa Constitution, as the district court ruled. On our review, we hold the Iowa marriage statute violates the equal protection clause of the Iowa Constitution. Therefore, we affirm the decision of the district court.
I. Background Facts and Proceedings.
This lawsuit is a civil rights action by twelve individuals who reside in six communities across Iowa. Like most Iowans, they are responsible, caring, and productive individuals. They maintain important jobs, or are retired, and are contributing, benevolent members of their communities. They include a nurse, business manager, insurance analyst, bank agent, stay-at-home parent, church organist and piano teacher, museum director, federal employee, social worker, teacher, and two retired teachers. Like many Iowans, some have children and others hope to have children. Some are foster parents. Like all Iowans, they prize their liberties and live within the borders of this state with the expectation that their rights will be maintained and protected—a belief embraced by our state motto.(p.1)
This class of people asks a simple and direct question: How can a state premised on the constitutional principle of equal protection justify exclusion of a class of Iowans from civil marriage?(p.18)
Many religions recognize same-sex marriage, such as Buddhists, Quakers, Unitarians, and Reform and Reconstructionist Jews. Schuman, 96 Geo. L.J. at 2108. Amicus curiae Iowa and National Faith Leaders, Communities, and Scholars point out the United Church of Christ encourages, but does not require, its local congregations to adopt wedding policies that do not discriminate between heterosexual, gay, and lesbian couples, while the Episcopal Church permits priests to perform liturgies and blessings at same-sex weddings as a matter of pastoral care. Additionally, many groups and clergy within various religions are working to achieve inclusion of same-sex marriage. (p.66)
State government can have no religious views, either directly or indirectly, expressed through its legislation. Knowlton v. Baumhover, 182 Iowa 691, 710, 166 N.W. 202, 208 (1918). This proposition is the essence of the separation of church and state. As a result, civil marriage must be judged under our constitutional standards of equal protection and not under religious doctrines or the religious views of individuals. This approach does not disrespect or denigrate the religious views of many Iowans who may strongly believe in marriage as a dual-gender union, but considers, as we must, only the constitutional rights of all people, as expressed by the promise of equal protection for all. We are not permitted to do less and would damage our constitution immeasurably by trying to do more. The only legitimate inquiry we can make is whether [the statute] is constitutional. If it is not, its virtues . . . cannot save it; if it is, its faults cannot be invoked to accomplish its destruction. If the provisions of the Constitution be not upheld when they pinch as well as when they comfort, they may as well be abandoned. Home Bldg. & Loan Ass’n v. Blaisdell, 290 U.S. 398, 483, 54 S. Ct. 231, 256, 78 L. Ed. 413, 452 (1934) (Sutherland, J. dissenting).
In the final analysis, we give respect to the views of all Iowans on the issue of same-sex marriage—religious or otherwise—by giving respect to our constitutional principles. These principles require that the state recognize both opposite-sex and same-sex civil marriage. Religious doctrine and views contrary to this principle of law are unaffected, and people can continue to associate with the religion that best reflects their views. A religious denomination can still define marriage as a union between a man and a woman, and a marriage ceremony performed by a minister, priest, rabbi, or other person ordained or designated as a leader of the person’s religiousfaith does not lose its meaning as a sacrament or other religious institution.
The sanctity of all religious marriages celebrated in the future will have the same meaning as those celebrated in the past. The only difference is civil marriage will now take on a new meaning that reflects a more complete understanding of equal protection of the law. This result is what our constitution requires.
We are firmly convinced the exclusion of gay and lesbian people from the institution of civil marriage does not substantially further any important governmental objective. (p.67-69)"
You can download a pdf of the full opinion at…
@143, 144 - just curious -- when was religion invented? I can't imagine how you could possibly know that, even if we could agree on a definition. But if we had a time machine, I'd put my money on religion being first. 'Course, we don't, so that's easy to say.
111, 134, 137.... You all got my (non-trans gay male) blood boiling so hard I was very tempted to rattle off individual responses to each of your "concerns" about the well being of trans folks, but why bother? The reality is, if you are truly coming from a place of care and compassion, you need to educate yourselves. You've obviously done some outdated reading by some straight white males with PhDs pathologizing a group they don't have any intention of understanding, or maybe you read an article by some second-wave feminist or lesbian separatist who sadly never took the time to get to know their trans brothers and sisters, and wound up taking them down instead of the actual oppressor. In any case your intentions may have been good, but it's time to update your research. There's a lot of great literature that's been put out on the trans experience in the last decade that is written by transgendered authors. If I wanted to gain a deeper understandings of the African American experience I would read a book by an African American, not some white "expert" who at worst may have a racist agenda but at best has the audacity to think he or she can fully understand what it is to live another's life. Reconsider your sources. Or your intentions. Are you concerned enough for these people to hear what they have to say? If not, you don't really get to keep calling it concern. It's just bigotry.
Is myycinderella/Shelby still around? If so, she should definitely post her question at… It's very likely (but not guaranteed) that she won't get comments that she's a troll, that she should get an abortion, that she doesn't have parenting skills, etc. etc.
@152 - sorry, should have been more specific. long before the current dominant religion (christianity) was invented.

marriage is a tradition that has been around longer than any church-invented definition of what it should and should not be.
On the other hand, wouldn't it be more interesting and effective if straight people did boycott marriage? Do I need to remind everyone about a little thing called the Boston Tea Party. Let's focus on getting everyone equals rights (which goes beyond marriage rights) and less time buying into the wedding industrial complex. Fuck weddings! Everyone keeps saying they are a neceaary part of our culture. Well, what would the world look like without this right of passage? Do we really know? No. Because everyone is too afraid to not get married. Stop focusing on marriage. It's a bullshit institution that typically kills relationships.
Frankly, there aren't enough straight ppl interested in our cause to make a difference by boycotting. Plus, the reason the Boston Tea Party worked is because they boycotted something essential to the economy of the boycotted party.

Even if everyone stopped officially getting married, I'm not sure it could have a big enough effect to change laws.
Dear Dan,

I love you. I am in love with you. You are my idol. I would carry your children were I to spontaneously sprout a uterus. Therefore, it is with great love and affection that I say:

What the fuck.

How can any thinking person not love Glee? Jane Lynch deserves every Emmy they give for her work on that show.

I'm seriously considering not sending you pictures of my dick now. And it's a really, really nice dick.
@42 Oh, it always ends up with horse-sex, doesn't it?? Find an excellent recording of Dan Savage's weirdest conversation ever - about a man who loved his horse SO much he "married" her. And was indignant that Dan asked if the horse was a male or female. I think the institution of allowing two adults - ANY adults, not just sexual and romantic partners, to register to have certain levels of responsibility to each other is the most obvious way out of this argument. I heard a radio show that said a proposal like this was being run by the locals in Utah, and folks seemed to like it. Think of the "Golden Girls" living situation - only the two related women would be able to make decions like enforcing medical directives for each other. If Blanche and Rose wanted to, they could have each other designated as registered life buddies (or some term I haven't thought of yet) and be able to do things like pay each other's mortgages if the other were indisposed... drive the other one's car, etc. Like power of attorney, only a more enriched version. Has anyone else heard about this?
The 'trans men everywhere' thing is weird, isn't it? The exact same situation obtains here, in Manchester (UK)- In fact, there are plenty of trans women around too, but they're much less visible. Whilst I think there are several factors at work here, the biggest by far is just that trans men get far less hassle, both within and without the 'queer' community. Partly this is because ftms normally 'pass' better (this in turn perhaps to do with the way male is the cultural 'default' recognition in ambiguous situations- show people someone with a beard and breasts, which is a fair description of many trans people of both directions at some point in their transition, and they'll read 'man', not 'woman') partly because of the long history of both perhaps-understandable mistrust and straightforward and unjustifable nastiness towards trans women within the lesbian feminist community (I call upon sally R above as an example) and partly, I reckon, because of good old-fashioned misogyny, which tends to scorn those with feminine characteristics (for comparison, think of the difference in attitude towards butch lesbians and effeminate gay men). Trans women are accordingly way more likely to become socially isolated recluses, afraid of going outside because of abuse and attack, and even if they're not, are far less likely to feel 'cool' or accepted in mixed queer spaces. Consequently, a lot of us retreat into 'ftm-only' social spaces, rather than showing up in gay and lesbian bars. And if we do pass and are confident, we're probably also nevertheless much less likely to identify ourselves to you than trans guys- even as a very happy, confident and definitely out ftm woman, who does go to all those places, and damn well dances once she's there, I'm still cautious about who I tell, as I've had some really bad reactions. The thing Dan says is true too, up to a point, but doesn't register that a LOT of trans men are gay or gay-leaning bi-, and that a pretty fair number of them were 'straight' before they transitioned, and that vice-versa, a fair portion of the equally large number of trans women who mainly like girls presented as gay men before they transitioned, since this identity gave them more room to exhibit 'feminine' characteristics.
sorry- errata- 'very happy confident and definitely out mtf woman' I should say and 'mtf-only social spaces'. I always get those acronyms the wrong way round, because it just sounds like the on that starts with the F ought to describe women. I fact, counter-intuitiveness is only one of the many problems with them, but you've gotta use the words people know...
Now that Maine, with its larger percentage of older Xians, and bite-me-you-non-voting-a##hole younger voters, has thrown the GBLT community under the decrepit bus, I have a new plan. But you have to join in, or I'm just someone with a folding table in front of the church.

Let's save America and the sanctity of marriage for the good Xians. They've been so worried about us, we forgot to worry about them. And what is more worrying, and against the scriptures, than divorce?

Let's get those petitions going, in all 50 states. Set up in front of churches, and keep it kind and helpful. Marriage must be protected -- NO MORE DIVORCE.

We'll just settle for all the economic and social responsibilities and rights, and take them under 'partnership'. Or any other name.

But "Marriage" must be protected, and since Xians aren't taking that final step, we must help them. Let's get anti-divorce laws on the books in every state.

Sure it won't work. But they'll have to fight it, which will amuse us, and their money will go elsewhere than the fight against GBLT rights.

Works for me. It'll work for you. Really. Go. Do. Enjoy.
Trans guy magazine - original plumbing check it out at
Seriously? The reason there are so many more FTMs than MTFs is that it's a lot more fun to be a guy than a girl. I think in a lot of cases it doesn't have to do with having felt "wrong" from birth at all. I think a hell of a lot of women don't really feel "feminine" and in our fair city if you don't really feel girly, being a FTM is practically encouraged. My butch friend actually says she feels pressure to transition (or at least make her community switch her pronoun) by her tranny friends. Which is fine, be what you want to be, but I have a lot more sympathy for those who were truly body dysmorphic from birth than for those who think that being a lesbian just isn't queer enough and that dickies slacks are cute.
@111 - which is why it is so difficult to obtain hormones or get the go-ahead for surgery, and which is why in many provinces in Canada both of these are covered under Medicare.

@134 - do some research before making sweeping declarations. People have to live as their identified gender for an extended period of time and receive counselling before being allowed access to hormones and surgery. There are numerous barriers in place to prevent people who are not serious about transitioning and people who are not appropriate to transition from doing so.

@137 - the body of research you're talking about is not only outdated, it's laughable. If you're referring to Michael Bailey's work, you may want to take a look at the numerous criticisms written about it.

@164 - fortunately, the barriers put in the way of people seeking to physically transition prevent most of those who do not genuinely experience GID from doing so.
The problem that we face is discrimination from insurance companies ! They consider this as elected cosmetic surgery ! Most of these same insurance companies that deny use the surgery , turn around and let convicts have them ! So ,in turn ,we are paying for them to have them so they can develop some sort of homie atmosphere for them ! They do not deserve any of those rights ,they gave those up when they broke the law ! Do these idiots think that we wanted to be born transgendered ? Do they think that people just commit suicide because they feel like it ? No , when transgenders get depressed , it is far more than anyone can imagine ! Suicidal thoughts run wild and it is hard to control them ! So who ever thinks that being transgendered is fun , you need to wake up , it is anything but !
Hi Dan,
Thanks for sharing the reading from the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court decision. My partner and I used it during our wedding ceremony in 2010. I was truly wonderful. Thanks again. I too hope it catches on.

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