Columns Jan 28, 2010 at 4:00 am

Curious Business


Hey 98, if believing it's wrong to deceive or manipulate people to get what you want is your version of being "sanctimonious" - all I can say is you're a true All-American.

Yeah, most of us have done it and had it done to us, and most of us have decided it sucks and to avoid doing it.

I like SL and think it's performed an important service. I don't like it when DS advocates manipulating or deceiving people, because that's hurtful and dishonest and phony, and I don't think that helps *any* cause or *anybody*.
Actually Dan's advice to HH is not all that much out-of-character for him; I've been noticing for some time that he says things that are stupid, misguided, and wrong. He's just one person w/one opinion and I found it frightenening that so many readers were giving him high fives for his alleged wisdom. It's a gratifying relief that people are starting to realize how off base he can be.
Helgaleena agrees with #93, starsandgarters, that slash predates Twilight. But it's just a pastel version of the stuff we market at and the mainstreaming of bi and threesomes is a small step in what I consider the right direction-- tolerance of all LOVE.

Cannot fault Dan for making trendy tie ins instead of moldy ones like Kirk/Spock. But yes, the amusing scenario he posits is not the most honest toward the woman. One wonders if Dan has even accused a female in this manner himself? I hope not.
Re: double penetration is most certainly fun, and just because a fellow wants to do it with you it doesn't mean he wants anything else. Do not push.

Leav e it to us fantasy writers to push, muwahaha! Apocalypse Woman by Tyree Kimber for example...
@103 -- I usually agree with Dan, who doesn't see things in a morally black-and-white way but who is often fair and pragmatic. Usually when he encourages deception it's OMISSION; when he encourages manipulation, it's to make something seem sexy and not scary.

This advice IS out of character because it might actually create some sex-negative feelings in the girlfriend, who deserves the benefit of the doubt -- to be presumed GGG until proven otherwise.
perhaps the best thing about SL is not Dan's sometimes questionable advice, but the wide range of debate/viewpoints that follow in the comments. That anyone older than 16 thinks his advice to HH is "right on" is mind blowing to me. Not only is it just plain wrong by Dan's own standards, but as someone else said, unless GF is brain dead she will certainly realize she is being used.
@86, 89: My boyfriend has the exact same fears you both describe. I always tell him he's being dumb (nicely).

What's the difference if I leave you for a man or woman? You couldn't compete with that man OR woman -- period.

The fact is that anytime someone changes their mind about you, it's because you can't "compete" in other ways -- not only based on what kind of genitals you have. A person is more than just a body. Not to forget that anyone who leaves you JUST BECAUSE you don't have a dick/vag isn't worth having.

What's more, for me, thinking of someone as relationship material goes beyond what sex they are; give me some credit, yeah? I might want to have sex with women, but I've never thought romantically of any.

I'm actually MORE threatened by women, because at least if my boyfriend leaves for a man, I can just say to myself, "Well, it's not a judgment on me because I can't even compete on the most basic physical level there, much less all that other stuff." If he left me for a woman, I couldn't make up that kind of excuse and have to start reflecting on what kind of inferior person I am.
I'm modern, young, and female and I don't fantasize about boy-girl-boy threesomes, just girl-boy-girl threesomes.

That is all.
Wow. #1 is the worst advice in a DS column I can remember. I guess it's fair game to manipulate women, but if a woman wrote in and suggested she manipulate her BF like that Dan would be all over the bitch.

I would consider dating a bisexual guy. Depends on the guy. But if a guy lied to me about it, I'd DTMFA in a heartbeat. You can justify it however you want, but it still makes you a selfish, lying piece of shit.
DAN I cannot believe you response to #1, HH. If they followed your advice -- planned a threesome with the naive girlfriend -- she would think she was getting pleasured by two guys (aka Bella's Twilight fantasy, quoting you) and then be shocked to see her boyfriend instead having sex with another man right in front of her. That's what you ADVISE? Can you imagine the pain and damage that would cause? Obviously a huge amount of trust would be broken, and the couple would break up, and the girlfriend would have the baggage because of whoring herself out without knowing the reason.

Horrible. Now I personally believe that the "mate" is probably gay, not bi, and just hasn't tried enough yet with a man, but to assume that he would figure it out in a threesome involving his girlfriend is so wrong.

Dan needs to retract this answer.
#47 (a sizable proportion of women - 40% in your study - saying they would reject dating a man if he were bisexual): I'm sorry to hear the proportion is so high. I think it's an unthinking, knee-jerk reaction, based on the assumption or prejudice that bi men are (1) not going to be able to remain in a monogamous relationship with a woman because men are just too damn attractive to them or (2) diseased because bi male=promiscuous. Interestingly, my partner is a liberal bisexual woman, and SHE thinks a bi man would eventually want to date men again! (I'm a liberal bi woman as well.)

#72 (bi men are diseased): If I were single and met an attractive (and honest, and mature) bi man, I would do exactly what I did with my current partner before pursuing a relationship: GO GET TESTED, and agree to be monogamous. Just because an individual is a member of a group, doesn't mean all members of that group are the same (in this case, STD-ridden) Geez, it isn't rocket science! (I'm not addressing the conspiracy theory because I have no idea if it's valid or not.)

#73 (criticizing @72): right on!

#92: yes, straight people are no more disease-free than gay or bi people are disease-ridden. Bang on!

#108: Gloria, for me this is the post of the day. It's about the individual, not about the category. Go back and read this one folks; I'm not pasting it in here because I'm already running off at the keyboard.

Interestingly, the prejudice against bi appears to exist in the lesbian community as well. When I first came out as bi after my marriage broke up, I was on the receiving end of a horrid monologue on a dating site - "bi women spread disease and confusion in the lesbian community." It HURT, and more seriously, it was bloody incorrect. The label is not the issue, it's the individual and how he or she behaves. You can be married to a 'straight' 'monogomous' traditional Bible thumper and find out he's been banging males and/or females behind your back!

#62 (annoyed at #47 for saying he doesn't want to be rejected on the basis of bisexuality): there's a difference between being rejected for reasons of what I'll term taste (e.g., height, breast size, intelligence) and prejudice. Neither is rational, but there's a difference between "I just don't like chocolate ice cream" and "I don't eat chocolate ice cream because it's more likely to be germ-ridden than vanilla!" The first is just a preference, the second a rejection based on an incorrect belief.

#72 (bi guys are diseased!!): you provide an excellent example of what I consider an incorrect belief. Even if I am wrong and bi guys are STD-ridden, THIS DOES NOT MEAN ALL BI MEN ARE STD carriers. It's important to judge an individual as an individual, and not just as a member of a group.

Seems to me from all said in the first letter and Dan's response that the two men have a stronger bond than the guy who has the girlfriend has with her alone. Setting her up to take the fall if it doesn't work out? Yikes. Well, the reality of the situation is that if it doesn't work out SOMEONE has to take the fall. The girlfriend in this case sounds eminently dispensable. So do her feelings. In the long run though the strategy Dan lays out might be for the best since, if the whole scenario creeps HER out, she will have to own that in the face of suspicions about her boyfriend's "compromised" sexuality. In a day and age when hooking up is so EASY for hot, young, horny people (via the internet) I do however wonder why these two "mates" want to even bother with this girl when they could successfully bang chicks who are GGG with the whole m-m-f scenario? Is it the Conquest? For many men it IS. Rather than even court this girl, though, I think the guys ought to pursue their activities with OBVIOUSLY eager and willing via internet contacts on-the-sly (if necessary) and that the girl in this case should be cut loose immediately if she even hints at being apprehensive. There's nothing really to be gained by pressuring her into a sexual entanglement that the boyfriend already suspects won't go the way they hope.
Sorry Dan, you're awesome, but I just can't agree with your response to the first letter (though the others seemed just fine to me - I know you crave my personal approval :P).

Fact is, there's already too much bullshit, manipulation, melodrama, dishonesty, passive aggression and FSM knows else in the world.

The bullshit approach you suggest might save a bit of discomfort in the short term, but if these guys are looking toward the long term health of their relationships and friendships, kicking off this potentially wonderful new phase in their sexuality with a pile of lies is absolutely the wrong way to do it.

I just plain came out as bi to my partner of three years (in my defence, only a few weeks after I realised it myself) and she just dealt with it because she loved me and wanted me to be happy. We just passed seventeen years together, so it worked out in the long run. If I had come out to her in a dodgy, dishonest way... I dunno, it would have felt like building foundations out of sand.
@110: Agree. I'd be fine if my husband wanted to fuck a guy, as long as he told me first. If he did what Dan is advocating in the first letter, I'd be furious.
I'm a slightly bi guy and I don't think that the super-hetero bf in letter #2 wanting to feel a penis in his gf's ass while his dick is in her snatch makes him bi any more than a male getting off on staring at a penis going into a woman in, say, typical straight porn. It doesn't mean that he wants to have sex with the penis or the connected human himself or make out with the said guy. Although it seems like it would be somewhat difficult to avoid all touch with the other male or have it be just "business." Not that it really matters much. Although, I could see her jumping to the conclusion that he is bi and not going to ever be satisfied solely by her.
I'm a straight girl, and the only guys I know who are not turned on my 3somes are wierdos from small towns who say,"I'm not gay!" super defensively. (HMMM, what does that mean?). Most straight guys, well, ok, all straight guys except for the above,love a little anal play, and yeah, that's their heterosexual asses, not my girl ass. And they all want to get off with their mates, or friends that are guys. High five and whatever. It's fun, it's great, so what if it's not 100% heterosexual? Labels are for suckers!
Tortured sigh: "I'm attracted to Male Friend, Girlfriend Whom I Love. Whatever shall I do?"

Days of reassurance and trepidation and support later: "He's got the hots for you!"

She'll help.
First letter - That is the WORST fucking advice you have EVER!! given!

Where are your rules - the couple discusses what they're comf. with before the threesome, own your own sexuality, and wtf is up with the advice for the boyfriend to burdon his girlfriend, " you MADE me bi." What a heavy load to put on someone, when it's a COMPLETE LIE!!

First off, the girl might be into it. Second off, if she isn't and it's a deal breaker, BREAK THE FUCK UP.

Ways to tell the gf: Yes, I'm interested in a 3-some. Yes, I'm bi-curious. No, this doesn't mean I don't love you and your bod. What? You're bi too? Yes, we can also do a FFM threesome.

How about boundaries are established that EVERYONE is comfortable with, to start. After the first 3some, discuss expanding, if need be, who is doing what to whom! I mean the girl might not even want letter writer to touch her at first, so maybe he's got to touch her only about the waist or only when her bf's touching her (not likely, but possible ) or whatever.

So Dan, your advice is TRULY THE WORST I have ever read. Get a grip.
I dated a bisexual dude and it was fun. If people don't want to date bi-people, they probably have their heads up their own butts.

Also I wanted to clarify: I'm a bi gal and I'd be fine with dating a bi guy--but the rules would be the same for him as anyone else I date: exclusivity. I'm monogamous, anyone with me should be too. Screwing around with a friend behind my back is not absolutely not ok. Being bi does not have to mean you can't be faithful--and if you can't, then what you need to be confessing to me isn't that you're bi, it's that you can't do monogamous relationships.
Uncertain Nephew Craving Levelheaded Explanation should introduce his closeted Mormon uncle to the Threesome Curious couple, and meanwhile Horny Homo and Flirting with Danger can screw two of the Mormon uncle's wives.
I know this is off topic, but the thread on women's refusal to date bi men got me to thinking. Does bisexuality come up when you're trying to hook up for a one night stand with a stranger?

I'm curious, just how many of you respondents insist on having a potential sex partner tested before you have sex with them? Do you insist on using condoms until they get a clean bill of health? Do you require them to get retested periodically? Do you require the results to be sent to you directly? I know, it kind of ruins the spontaneity and romance while displaying a lack of trust in someone you just met. I doubt many people talk about sexual health while trying to hook up.
The last letter, from FWD, might be misinterpreting the coworker's actions. He's judging his coworker's flirtatious actions by the standards of the interactions he's used to with gay men. Women are not the same.

Some women enjoy flirting, just for fun, for it's own sake. It doesn't mean they want to consummate a relationship, or even have a quick snog in the supply closet.

If she knows he's gay, and she knows that he knows she's married, this gives her a virtual free pass to play at flirting and practice her wiles. It may not even be conscious on her part.

I had a young colleague at work, who was always very tactile, touching my arms and shoulders, and standing a bit too close most of the time. Being older, and married, I was considered "safe," I guess. Meanwhile, I thought she was interested in reciprocation. This notion was rapidly dispelled one day when we were walking outside to lunch, and I reached to hold hands with her. She pretty much freaked, and that was the end of that.
@124: I do require getting tested before hooking up. In fact, I require having gotten tested since your last sex partner, which should have been long enough ago to actually test for everything (some things, including HIV, give false negatives shortly after you acquire them). Even with the testing, I still require condoms, due to the things that can't be tested for, like HPV in men. I know that limits my sexual options, and I'm ok with that. I always get tested between partners, too.

@47 A rational reason? Donating blood. You can't donate blood if you are a male who has had sexual contact with another male since 1977, or if you have had sex with someone who has done so. Mind you, I'd still date a bisexual, but you wanted a rational reason, so there it is.

You logic obsessed folks are adorable. Totally my type, despite being somewhat irrational myself.
@118: I need to live where you live.
@126, you are adorable yourself, if everyone was that responsible about their health, there would be no STDs within a few decades!
Just some thoughts.

Is the bi boyfriend already a CPOS or just proposing to become one (i.e. is he already having gay sex)? HH doesn't indicate whether the couple has an open or closed relationship. Only HH appears to have any qualms about having sex behind the girlfriend's back.
Where are all the bi-curious guys in Vancouver?

I agree with the women who said it's a number one fantasy, with everyone getting busy. And if my otherwise straight-identifying partner got a little carried away, that would be so hot.

But what's up with this: I have had two boyfriends tell me they wanted to bring another man into our bed, only to back out after I had actually lined someone up!?

I also have a friend who used to regularly have FFM threesomes, but then he switched to MMF. Why? He said the women would get jealous of each other and it wasn't worth the drama.
Re the 2nd letter:

4 words: guys like to watch.

It's a proven fact that guys respond (sexually) to visual stimuli more than gals. I suspect that a lot of the guys who have this fantasy (unrealized or realized) just dig watching their gf getting fucked. (And hey, you get to be part of this hot scene without doing any of the work! What man wouldn't want that?) Just because the number of guys on the bed > 1, it does not necessarily = bisexual.

And I'm SURE that there are plenty of times where the guy thinks he'd be into it, but freaks out when it actually happens (for whatever reason). Those are the failed mmf 3-ways that you never, EVER hear about...
@ 130 - "Where are all the bi-curious guys in Vancouver?"

@2 and 3: I think it's so funny that these people are so oblivious and totally missed Dan's terrible answer to HH. They just jumped right to the comment box and tried to get their "Great job as always, Dan~~~ ^___^" shit onto the page asap. Read the fucking article first.

Normally I think Dan Savage is amazing. But that answer was definitely no good.
... After all, in a homosexual marriage, there is no woman there to say "No" to sex all the time, so it should pretty much be a free-for-all, all the time. ... I wish it were that simple. Gay couples have to deal with all the same relationship crap, financial issues, job stresses, etc. and it's not always as easy as you would think to keep that out of the bedroom.
Someday my boyfriend will agree to have a MMF threesome. Someday.

As for the DP? ehh, probably not. Unless the other guy has a very small peen.

@131 - I truly hate when people make generalizations, especially about women. All this crap that men are more into visual stimulation than women? PLEASE. I can't have sex with the lights off. I watch porn. I'm a woman. I LIKE TO WATCH. End of story.
I used to like dp, but I guess it just got old? love the use of innards ;)
@131 Let's keep fantasy separate from reality. Sure most guys like to watch and many guys fantasize about watching their gf getting fucked by another guy, even gang banged, but the reality is that a lot guys would lose, some if not all, respect for the girlfriend dooming their relationship. It may seem/be hot and a good idea at the time, but not if it wakes you up in the middle of the night. Relationships can survive many things, but not the loss of respect. The only worse is the loss of trust although they tend to be intertwined. Granted this is a gross oversimplification of the dynamics of relationships.
Dan - I can't believe that you would advise someone to blame another person for their sexuality; you're better than that.
I really don't get it. Am I living in some kinda Twilight Zone episode? I have worked in bar and clubs for years in Seattle and have never ever met one female that would want to try a MMF (I'm straight so I don't wanna do anything with the guy, but I do appreciate seeing the beauty of a woman being fucked in front of me). In my 2+ years in Seattle I have met the most sexually conservative women to ever go out on a Friday/Saturday night. I just don't get how there's apparently all these women out there that would do that but I'm just not meeting any of them. Whoa is me! Shed a tear with me so I don't feel so alone.
Listen up, girls and gays:

A man's MMF fantasy does not necessarily make him bisexual--even the "tiniest bit".

There are countless MMF-DP porn scenes out there with absolutely zero MM contact, "innards" excepted.

Guys are obviously getting off on this, or MMF-DP porn wouldn't be produced in such volume. There is also plenty of MMF-Bi stuff (not as much, I'm guessing) but that is clearly serving a different market.

I notice in the comments above, and in my own conversations with women, that people tend to assume that MMF implies direct sexual MM interaction.

Perhaps this is because it is their fantasy, or their fear. But that don't make it so.
MMF is probably also misunderstood because FFM fantasies for both men and women almost always assume FF contact. So people assume the opposite is also true.

It isn't. At least not always, and maybe even not usually.
Maybe I missed this, because I only read the first 100 comments or so, but I wouldn't date a bi man (And it did come up once, but there were other issues in the relationship, one of which was, in fact, lying to me about being bi.) because there's something about men a bi male is attracted to. That's something I cannot provide in a relationship. I think a bi male would eventually miss the male on male part of his sexuality.

But then, I require monogamy for myself though I don't believe it works for everyone, so I may just be too old fashioned for this column! :-)
Just thought I'd post a few recent statistics on STDs /venereal diseases. Note the statement about these diseases posing MUCH MORE of a RISK to women. As for those ningnongs and their blather about "going together to get tested"; How do you KNOW what your Bi-boyfriend is DOING BEHIND YOUR BACK? And a BI guy (remember, men are ALREADY "hardwired to cheat") is subject to TWICE the temptation!


Syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, herpes, HPV, HIV... not only are these sexually transmitted diseases all on the rise, according to a recent report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), but they also pose "a particularly heavy burden on women."

* Syphilis, once on the verge of elimination, increased 15.2 percent between 2006 and 2007 (the last year that data is available), and is now striking more women and their infants than ever.

* Reported cases of chlamydia (which can lead to infertility) and gonorrhea—estimated to represent only half of actual cases since so many go undiagnosed—were the highest in history in 2007, with the rate of chlamydia among women three times that of men.

* Females now account for more than a quarter of all new HIV/ AIDS diagnoses, with high-risk heterosexual contact the source of 80 percent of these newly diagnosed infections.

* Hepatitis B, which is 50 to 100 times more infectious than HIV, often causes no symptoms. People may not know they're infected until they develop serious liver disease.

* And HPV—which is responsible for causing 70 percent of cervical cancer and 90 percent of genital warts cases—has become the most common STD on the planet, and it's spreading at epidemic rates: About 25 million women in the U.S. are currently infected, according to the CDC, and another 6.2 million are newly diagnosed each year.

All these diseases are RAMPANT in the gay community to a MUCH GREATER EXTENT than is being reported HERE, due to "political correctness".
Dan, regarding your answer to #1: way to promote the trust, honesty, and open communication, dude.

Sheez, if we wanted mind games like that we'd read a fucking Christian column.
@29 to thunda71
My general opinion of DP is high. Done twice. Once anal/vaginal; once double vaginal. Intensely pleasurable. Particularly when performed slowly, with two guys who love you. No regrets. Requires scheduling and sensitivity on the guys' part. Neither were gay, just aiming to pleasure me. Obviously, not the same situation as the 3-some described here.
DP (if the woman is comfortable with both men) will make her squirt like noone's business. I've done it with two separate women, and both of them left my crotch soaked in vaginal goodness.

As far as the "I'd never date a bi guy because I couldn't satisfy his desire for cock" argument is concerned, porn exists for a reason. If a bi guy is in love with a woman, there's nothing stopping him from visiting any site and watching as much amateur/professional bisexual/gay porn as he likes (as long as he isn't allowing porn to act as a deterrent in the bedroom for the living, breathing person in his life.) Not every bisexual person on the planet is a "practicing" bisexual. Many of them are just people who learned that they get turned on whether the dick:pussy ratio in a video is even or overwhelmingly tilted in one given direction. And if a woman can jill off to a Dawson video (my own LTR lady love) and claim to be "straight", then it isn't impossible to find an "out" bisexual who's happy with just *watching* the same things. Or even opposite things, in the case of bi men dating gay men who solely watch girl-on-girl porn when they aren't taking the cock like sluts or bending their lovers over a table, etc. Like Savage has said in the past, all gays/bis don't engage in anal sex and most of them are happy without engaging in penetration at all (IOW, excluding the highest risk factor for disease transmission.) If a woman had a choice between dating a guy who called up a male friend for a jack-off session when she "wasn't in the mood", or dating a guy who ran off and fucked prostitutes without protection when she "wasn't in the mood", I'll bet that the number of women who'd date bi men would increase exponentially.

Apparently when Dan talks about vaginas, he is only ever talking about yours.

Get over yourself.

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