Thanks, Science... this really is one of the most tragic misuses of scientific "authority" of our time. Wakefield has single handedly made vaccination scary to a whole generation of parents - and it doesn't have to be. What an ass.
I'm really glad that the process finally worked, but wow. What a set of balls the guy had to make up THAT much data! Jeezus. And to think I once felt guilty when I left out an outlier in my data to make my graphs look better for publication. :)

Oh and PS. Get ready for the onslaught from the anti-vaccination true believer crowd (although I'm sure you're up for it). Some people just don't get it...

@1 Tsk tsk. Outliers are data too.

No amount of arguing will extract the lies entrenched in the minds of the willfully, howlingly ignorant. No amount of evidence will convince them. In fact, the more evidence you give them, the more convinced they are of the government/pharma conspiracy to make lots of money by making all children autistic (or something like that).

@4 What makes their suspicion of real medicine on the basis of "they're just trying to make money" so sad is how many scammers are pushing crystal healing, flower essences, vitamins, diet fads, etc and so forth. It becomes a pointless argument where you shout back and forth "No, obviously YOU are being scammed by YOUR health people."

At the same time we Americans have no reason to trust our food and drug administration, or any study conducted by a corporate entity that concludes their products are safe. That kind of fraud doesn't get the media coverage that fraud beneficial to drug company profits gets.

No, I don't believe that vaccines cause autism, but we live in a world where science is corrupted by commerce. I don't think the people that believe conspiracy theories involving drug companies are likely to be wrong. They may have been this time, but that doesn't make them stupid.

Hey, Johnathan, I have a couple questions. What about the mercury in vaccines? Isn't it a good idea to limit a developing brain's exposure to mercury? The food and drug administration thinks mercury in vaccines is awesome. Is there any chance at all that injecting even small doses of mercury into a child's bloodstream is bad?

FWA, thimerosal, the mercury compound to which you refer, is no longer used as a preservative in the vast majority of pediatric vaccinations. So it turns out the FDA doesn't think mercury in vaccines is awesome.

http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccine…

I left out some important information...my apologies.

There are still a handful of products which contain mercury-based preservative in addition to those mentioned in my above comment.

Should you find yourself in need of Pit Viper, Coral Snake or Black Widow antivenom you will have to weigh the pros and cons of mercury exposure vs the natural progression of the venom.

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccine…

I had already skimmed parts of the FDA pages you linked to. I took away that only most childhood vaccines are thirmerosol free. Being that the FDA often acts as a wholly owned subsidiary of the industries it's meant to regulate, I thought I'd ask Science for his opinion.

The sad fact is that autism and other developmental disorders in children are skyrocketing all over the world. It's probably due to synergistic interactions of industrial pollutants such as dioxins and mercury that can be toxic at just a few parts per billion.

Anyway, I don't have a lot of time right now. Just to reiterate, I at no point suggested that people don't immunize their kids. I just wondered if there's a chance that mercury exposure even in tiny doses could be bad for growing kids.

What you should have gleaned from your skimming then is that only DTap and seasonal flu have any mercury at all.

The research has already been done that shows how a small amount of mercury can be bad for the brain, growing and otherwise. It's summarized quite nicely on those pages you skimmed.

The research though shows that the amounts in vaccinations is much less than required to produce negative effects. Eating lots of tuna fish on the other hand...

Yeah. Great. Thanks tempo. Have a nice day.

Hey, if you want to ask a question like "Is there any chance at all that injecting even small doses of mercury into a child's bloodstream is bad?" you need to accept that there is no way to answer you appropriately beyond what I've said above.

Yes. Mercury has been shown to damage the central nervous system in children and adults. Yes. There is mercury in SELECT vaccinations and medicines. Yes. The amount of mercury in the above mentioned items is less than the amount shown in studies to be damaging to tissue. Yes. It is probably for the best to minimize exposure to a child's brain. Yes. That should be weighed against the risk of the diseases you're trying to treat. See my statement about Pit Viper antivenom. Yes. There is still a small chance that even a small dose could damage a child. There is also a small chance that a small amount of sterile saline into a child's bloodstream could be bad.

It is ABSOLUTELY impossible to scientifically prove that something does not happen. Only that it hasn't happened yet.

Not to go all 9/11 conspiracy on you, but didn't U.S. Congress pass a bill in late 2001 "immunizing" big pharma from liability, even retroactively, from any harm caused by their vaccines? Ostensibly, it was to encourage those companies to still make vaccines, looking at the national security angle. But, conveniently, it would also have kept them safe from lawsuits related to the thimerasol--autism connection, which always seemed more disturbing than the direct vaccine--autism link. My understanding is that thimerasol was not even a necessary ingredient in the vaccines at all, but it was a nice preservative that made the production and storage much cheaper and cost effective. Interesting to note, also, that thimerasol is no longer used in infant vaccines in the U.S., but it is fine for the third world. Remember, scientists still don't know exactly why aspirin is harmful to children under 12, but they just know it is. The Wakefield article scandal makes a super convenient distraction from the real issues, which is probably why it is getting so much play in the corporate-owned media.

So, OneTrickPony, what exactly IS the issue with mercury in some vaccines? Where is the data that shows that people are getting sick from certain flu shots and anti-venins?

If there is this huge cover-up, great, but it helps to know WHAT is actually being covered up...

Reyes Syndrome from aspirin use seems to have a correlation in under-12s in an epidemiological sense, even if the mechanism isn't yet known. So what exactly is the syndrome that you reckon comes from mercury-preserved vaccines? Because it sure ain't autism.

I refer anyone who is interested in what low-dose long term mercury exposure does to what is know known as the Minamata Disaster or also known as Minamata's disease.
Caused by industrial run-off, and exacerbated by a diet reliant on fish as a protein source, the people of Minamata suffered debilitating neurodegenerative diseases and high infant mortality rates for decades. This tragic sequence of events highlighted the toxic effects of mercury, particularly in fetuses and children, and the persistent bio-accumulative nature of mercury in both fish and humans.

Harada, M. "Minamata Disease: Methylmercury Poisoning in Japan Caused by Environmental Pollution." Crit. Rev. Toxicol. 1995, 25, 1-24.
Eisler, R., Mercury: Hazards to Living Organisms. Taylor & Francis: 2006; p 336.

Or just google Minamata disaster.

Siz,

What you are calling "low dose" is not really low dose. The amount of mercury the people in this community ingested is many many times what a child would receive from a vaccine, even after taking into account a child's smaller size.

As tempo said: YES mercury is bad, but NO your child will almost certainly not be harmed by a vaccine.

ML77, I said "low-dose long term" mercury exposure.

I did not say "low-dose single time" mercury exposure.

It is irrefutable that long-term mercury exposure via ones diet or environment causes severe health issues. This should not be confused with low-dose single exposure.

However, the data on what causes age-related neurological diseases and neurological degeneration are only mildly agreeable at best and completely contradictory at worst. So I'll just stick to my guns that heavy metal exposure is something to be avoided.

That being said, there isn't any reason why, given the known toxicity of mercury, it should be included in childhood vaccines. I don't think it causes autism, I don't think it causes neurological harm via a single low dose exposure. However, does it really warrant a place in vaccines? I don't think so.

"That being said, there isn't any reason why, given the known toxicity of mercury, it should be included in childhood vaccines. I don't think it causes autism, I don't think it causes neurological harm via a single low dose exposure. However, does it really warrant a place in vaccines? I don't think so."

How do you know? Do you have training in this area? Do you think that the people who make the vaccines are being lazy and cheap? Or could it possibly be that there is some legitimate reason mercury is the most appropriate material? Are you aware of mercury's function in vaccines, and can you propose some other material which can perform the same function with similar or lower negative effects on patient health?

"How do you know? Do you have training in this area? Do you think that the people who make the vaccines are being lazy and cheap? Or could it possibly be that there is some legitimate reason mercury is the most appropriate material? Are you aware of mercury's function in vaccines, and can you propose some other material which can perform the same function with similar or lower negative effects on patient health?"

In answer to your questions:

1) Because I read A LOT of scientific literature as part of my job.
2) Yes.
3) Yes. Not so much lazy but cheap.
4) There are no legitimate reasons to continue to use thimerosal in vaccines.
5) Yes, I am aware of the function of mercury in vaccines.
6) There are currently FDA approved vaccine preservatives that do not contain mercury.

Pit viper anti-venom is a product of Satan. Anyone who would use it obviously needs to do some serious praying and then catch up on Mark 16:17-18.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

I really don't think any kind of high powered "expertise" is necessary to understand this story, frankly.

1) Starting in the late 80's, companies start using a form of mercury, thimerosal, as a preservative ingredient to help them store vaccines longer. These vaccines are given to infants only days or hours old.

2) A massive explosion of autism cases is documented. Since symptoms take years to fully reveal themselves and mature diagnoses to be made, it is uncertain at first what is happening.

3) Medical researchers start to get concerned about a potential thimerosal--autism link. Perhaps injecting poison in one-day-old's is not the best idea?

4) By the early 90's, use of thimerosal is discontinued as a preservative for vaccines, at least for those given to U.S. newborns.

5) Congress exempts Pharma from liability for damage caused by vaccines, retroactively. This eliminates the potential for the absolute mother of all class-action lawsuits. The tobacco class actions begin to look like pocket change. Hmmm...adults who relatively freely purchase and use an admittedly dangerous product? Yeah, that's bad. Infants whose entire lives are pretty much ruined because an uber wealthy pharmaceutical concern decided to put poison in their vaccines because it would save a few bucks? Er...

6) The Wakefield story gets trumpeted from the rooftops. As Bill Hicks once said "go back to bed, America, your government has figured it all out."

Maybe thimerosal does not cause autism. But the system sprang into action to protect itself, even against the possibility that it could be a contributing factor.

Oh, I know. We don't know how to cure/treat MS either. Or Parkinson's or Autism or Lupus or arthritis or Fibromyalgia or Chrohns disease or ALS or Endometriosis or ovarian cysts or or or or or or or.

I would just like to add that it is likely mercury-containing vaccines are still used in 3rd world countries because thimerosal is an effective preservative, and cold-chain storage is not as widespread in developing countries as it is in the US or EU. Given that many vaccines have to spend long hours in unrefrigerated trucks or in broken fridges in rural health outposts before getting to the population that needs them, and given that the risk of an infant dying from whooping cough or measles is much greater in Kenya or Nepal than it is in the US, it is HUGELY important to keep those vaccines fresh. In other words, a parent in Nepal is weighing the known risk of an ineffective vaccine (death) against the unknown possibility that a small amount of mercury might do some kind of undefinable harm to his or her child.

Myduh is quite correct. And which one of you non-immunologists are going to say Thimerosol and other preservatives aren't acting as adjuvants?
(you can look it up if you like)
Vaccines contain more than inert, structurally interesting bits of virus-coating, they also contain substances which have been shown to irritate the hell out of the immune system. That is always going to sound scary- because it is scary! It's sorcery! It's a molecular sledgehammer, make no mistake. But it works, bitches.
That's not to say it isn't a product too- Vaccines and medicines are a recipe, a formula and a production line as well as black magic and molecular bio-
Such things, like science, are open to peer review and popular opinion. Stockholder pressure and bad press will get the vaccine formula changed for ya... but we could accidentally come up with a worse preservative.

Myduh is quite correct. And which one of you non-immunologists are going to say Thimerosol and other preservatives aren't acting as adjuvants?
(you can look it up if you like)
Vaccines contain more than inert, structurally interesting bits of virus-coating, they also contain substances which have been shown to irritate the hell out of the immune system. That is always going to sound scary- because it is scary! It's sorcery! It's a molecular sledgehammer, make no mistake. But it works, bitches.
That's not to say it isn't a product too- Vaccines and medicines are a recipe, a formula and a production line as well as black magic and molecular bio-
Such things, like science, are open to peer review and popular opinion. Stockholder pressure and bad press will get the vaccine formula changed for ya... but we could accidentally come up with a worse preservative.