Columns Jan 27, 2011 at 4:00 am

That Said

Comments

107
"queer, feme, sub" What is that? Is that a guy?
108
Wow, angry people. I thought you all would want to know this shit. Fuck, if someone mentioned the it gets better project, you'd all relax. I did not intend to spam - my apologies if y'all took it as such. I was pissed Dan, who is 100% sex positive towards ladies, ignored a woman's issue while promoting one that benefited gay men, natch, and lesbians w/out mentioning Roe. To the abusive assholes - go fuck yourselves. This week's article discussed a woman's insecurity - you think the fact most men in power play fast & loose w/ women's rights has no bearing on the psyche of women? It does. And it's permeated through all culture.
110
"rugby build" man = "curvy" woman
(Rugby Build = inclusive between Ben Cohen and Austin Power's Fat Bastard)
111
@109 - Double post wasn't intentional, obviously. And if it allowed deletion of your own comments, I would've removed the accidental double post.

IOW: Chill out. Accident != moronic. Go vent on /b/.
113
To LIFE: it's possible that your GF is less worried about dying before you than she is about getting old before you.

If your relationship lasts for years but not "forever," it could be harder for her to find a new love when she's older than if she looked now for someone closer to her age.

If you do stay together until death do you part, she may eventually become frail and physically dependent on you - leaving her to question whether you could possibly stay attracted to her when she's no longer able to keep up the physical end of your Dom/sub relationship, whether you're just staying with her out of obligation, etc.

You *could* try to reassure her on these points, but the fact is that even without an age difference to reckon with, no one can know for sure how they're going to feel about their partner in one year, let alone 10 or 20 years.

If either of you is looking right now for The One, those long-term aging issues will always be hovering in the air above you. If you're both looking for a grand affair that will burn hot and bright for a year or two, leaving you with fond memories and maybe an enduring friendship, there's little harm in brushing those issues aside. But it's probably a good idea to clarify what you each currently want out of a relationship in general, independent of whether you want those things from each other.
114
@108

You insulted Dan, angrily instructed us all to engage in political activity that is in no way relevant to the subjects being discussed here, and now are peeved that you're perceived as a spammer?
115
THIN i have a girlfriend in this exact situation. Her boyfriend is skinny while she is average and all she can seem to focus on is her insecurities. I feel like this will be a constant problem in your relationships until you find a girl completely sure of her worth.
116
@115, I agree with you (see @5), but, that said... this ---

"until you find a girl completely sure of her worth"

-- that's, um, going to take a while.
117
Dear Dan,
My boyfriend and I used to be HUGE fans of yours, looking forward to your column every week until one day recently, we realized what a hypocritical "bigot" you are in your own sense. We are the proud owners of a PIT BULL that is a trained service dog and provides therapy to sick children and aging seniors. You are perpetuating the stereotype of them with your remarks that are EXACTLY like the ones you fight against for yourself and other stereotyped minorities. Good job leading your followers in harboring more hate for a breed that is already over bred and abused because of comments and beliefs like yours. Thank you for letting everyone know that you really aren't as open minded as you want everyone to think and good luck with your self-righteous agenda.

Love,
2 Less Fans & Rita, the pit bull
118
Dear Dan,
My boyfriend and I used to be HUGE fans of yours, looking forward to your column every week until one day recently, we recently realized what a hypocritical "bigot" you are in your own sense. We are the proud owners of a PIT BULL that is a trained service dog and provides therapy to sick children and aging seniors. You are perpetuating the stereotype of them with your remarks that are EXACTLY like the ones you fight against for yourself and other stereotyped minorities. Good job leading your followers in harboring more hate for a breed that is already over bred and abused because of comments and beliefs like yours. Thank you for letting everyone know that you really aren't as open minded as you want everyone to think and good luck with your self-righteous agenda.

Love,
2 Less Fans & Rita, the pit bull
119
WOK ..... WTF! Look dude you may be a good guy you may be able to make a conribution in the socio-therapeutic realm , but you are nobodys CHristian spiritual leader. Religion is normative ie.there are rules to this and being gay and liking kink can be many things but it is not fit behavior for the guy at the ALTAR of the church. You are supposed to represent the highest standard of the brand you represent and not consciously and deliberately engage in beavior that falls WAAy short of "the glory". Fairly monogamous ? What you only get peed on by 1 guy at a time for months at a time? How many partners in a 2 year period ? five years? Dude you should be in the pews and work in a state social work agecy not trying to lead anyones Christian flock. There are rules to this shit and the guy wrote a manual!(notorious big) This is not debatable! I like to bang black chicks doggy style but I am not claiming to be particularly religious.
120
@THIN: First of all I want to say that I really appreciate the fact that someone as young as you can be up front and honest in the world about liking big women when it's probable that doing so cost you at least some street cred with other youngish types.

I am 5'6" and 360 pounds. I know from experience that discrimination against the overweight is deeply and painfully real and something a lot of people have been raised to think is okay and have no idea contributes to intense suffering in the world.

I also married a very thin man. We met when we were both 19, but I was pursued by several of the "I like fat girls, but only in private" types for a long time before I realized he was the one. When my then-casual boyfriend first started with the dirty talk about how much he liked my size and certain parts of me, etc., I was VERY uncomfortable. I first thought he was lying to make me feel better and thinking I wouldn't know the difference. Got over that. Then I thought he was purely into the fetish aspect, not the emotion, and just wanted to get his rocks off to the idea of me eating and gaining weight. Got over that. I finally realized that he not only wanted me sexually, he also really loved me, was committed, and didn't care what other people thought about us being together. After five years, we got married. We now have a truly satisfying sex/intellectual/general life, and are about as happy as anyone else in this world.

So THIN, you are in demand. If you can be patient, consistent, and find the right woman to commit to no matter what even if it takes her a few years to figure your angle on things... your dreams shall come true.

On a separate note: what the fuck is up with pit bull girl and "this is not debatable" guy? I was hoping the intelligent discussion wasn't over yet.
121
@119 Thank you for being an excellent example of the point I'm about to make.

@WOK: As a daughter of clergy, I'd like to warn you that a LOT of congregants in every congregation everywhere want their leaders to be the epitome of moral perfection (whatever that means to that particular congregant), so that they won't have to be perfect themselves. They want to feel that they are represented by somebody morally perfect.

This is true no matter where you go, and whether or not they know you're kinky.

Don't internalize this insane expectation.

Even if your congregants don't know the details of your sex life (and I don't know why you'd tell them), they'll still always find something to criticize. Get good at handling criticism, it goes with the territory. :) Good luck!
124
Seriously. What is a "queer femme sub"? Even Google doesn't know.
125
@124, she's a lesbian, fairly feminine in her appearance, and submissive sexually.
126
@125, Thanks! I just love all of our "labels".

:-)
127
SD needs to avoid speed dating.

If he canโ€™t sum up the core essence of his personal life in five minutes without freaking out other patrons then speed dating is not for him. Find another way to meet people.
128
In regards to previous poster., yeah, I am gonna go out and tell a "curvy" woman that I like her hot figure, but would like her better if she was thinner. I am sure that will go over real well.
129
SD needs to avoid speed dating. People are there to find someone to date and maybe a mate. They are not there to be sexual entertainment for a couple. Why don't people like this just go to adultfriendfinder and leave those of us trying to find a relationship ALONE?
130
First of all, I love this column, it has saved me. Second to THIN, I am a big girl, and really if you were to tell me that you thought I was dead sexy because of that, I would be just fine. But, other women these days are not gonna be happy with you sayin that. I am a freak, I except that fact that I am a little chunky. But you just need to treat them like you would a skinny women (except if you don't like skinny women, then don't treat 'um like that, you will be slapped, but you know what I mean...hopefully)
131
@117: "we realized what a hypocritical "bigot" you are in your own sense. We are the proud owners of a PIT BULL that is a trained service dog and provides therapy to sick children and aging seniors. You are perpetuating the stereotype of them with your remarks that are EXACTLY like the ones you fight against for yourself and other stereotyped minorities"

look lady, you should be able to get married to your lousy death machine if it so pleases you
132
@129 If I just wanted a fuck as you suggest, I'd go on AFF or Craigslist. You seem to think I meant "open relationship" or "swinging", not "poly". What makes you think I'm not trying to "find a relationship"?

I think you missed that my BF is long distance. Even if that weren't the case, I'm looking for an actual date, with maybe a medium-term relationship, for myself - not "sexual entertainment for a couple". Pretty much the same as anyone else going to a speed dating event, except that I also have an existing boyfriend.

Please go read http://xeromag.com/fvpoly.html so you at least know what you're talking about.
133
For LIFE:

Many years ago, against my better judgement, I fell in love and was in a committed relationship with a girl 19 years younger than me. I was early forties at the time, and yeah it was a ego trip at first, but like you, we got along great,shared many interests etc etc. At the time we met, she was a goldstar radical lez college girl, and I'd been around the block a few times bi,straight and gay in my younger years, but now I was ready to settle down. She insisted she was also, and that I was the "one". It lasted for 5 years-----then she started questioning her own identity. I saw the writing on the wall, and even tho it was painful, breaking up was the right thing to do. Eventually over the next few years, I met the love of my life (my age) and my young ex experimented with everything but German Shepards (tho I have doubts that didn't happen also) and is now married to a man and a mother.

So LIFE, you didn't say how old you are, but maybe your older lover is just trying to protect herself, and the both of you in the long run.
Good luck whatever you decide.
134
@132: Agreed, of course. But I just wanted to mention that you can find relationships of many different types on AFF or Craigslist, and that I'm sure there will be people at the speed dating event just looking for a fuck.
135
I have to disagree with people saying THIN shouldn't say he's attracted to chubby girls. Chubby girls shouldn't have to be in denial to accept themselves - in fact, that's a nonsequitur, as denial is the antithesis to acceptance. THIN shouldn't have to be ashamed of his liking for chubby girls. But a chubby girl who feels bad about being chubby obviously doesn't like chubby girls herself.

I think that's an issue for the women themselves. It sucks, but THIN can't be the white knight for them so long as they are so self-loathing. Maybe they do get worse being with THIN because he doesn't ignore the elephant in the room (for want of a less offensive idiom) and openly admits that he sees them as chubby, which is confronting to many a self-conscious chubby girl who is secretly hoping it's all in her head. But sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better. Sometimes dealing with the distasteful realisation that they really are as chubby as they see themselves in the mirror is what has to happen before they decide to either hate themselves into thinness or accept who they are and keep dating more THIN-type guys.

Sure, their identity shouldn't revolve around being chubby, but THIN shouldn't have to hide the fact that he likes their bodies when men with slimmer girlfriends wouldn't have to do so.
136
THIN...I'm the girl for you. Curvy and totally secure with myself and looking for a man to appreciate that!!!
137
@44 - "If someone likes what they see, they have every right to say it - it's incumbent on the woman in possession of said set of fashionably questionable curves to learn to take a compliment."

I sincerely hope you're not one of those creeps who "compliments" women on the street by making comments at them and then blaming them for not liking what YOU have to say.
It is NOT your "right" to say whatever you like to others. Why should the rest of the world have to change to accept YOUR opinion.
Try some self-restraint and also consideration for others. If you're not one of those creeps who makes vulgar comments at women then the message still applies: It is not up to the rest of the world to change for you. You are the only one who can change.
It is always incredible to hear folks say they "have the right to say what they want to others" and then expect others to accommodate them.
Nope, it doesn't work like that. Have some basic responsibility for your actions then you'll understand. The rest of the world doesn't have to "learn how to take a compliment" just because you don't know how to keep your mouth shut. There are more insecure fat women out there than there are "fat and happy or proud" ones. Add to that, the concept of the chubby chaser to the mix and you have fertile ground for all sorts of insecurities and then YOU wonder why such women "can't take a compliment?"
Also, what may sound like a compliment to YOU may sound like a jibe or even an insult to a more sensitive person.
Sure, say what you want because you have "every right to say it" but don't complain when the person hearing it has every right to tell you where to get off.
Choose your words carefully and don't expect others to always understand your meaning. Everyone is different and we all have our own life experiences and upbringings which sometimes makes communication not exactly what you think it is supposed to be.
138
@ 75 - Seriously? Completely rude, self-indulgent post from a troll. Go play in the road.
139
@ 90, 92 and 93, the word "curvy" used to mean bodies like Sophia Loren or Bo Derek or Marilyn Monroe but the word has, indeed, been taken over by fat people to describe bodies that look like the Hindenburg but the word "curvy" makes them "feel better."
Curvy still means curvy and fat still means fat and anyone who disputes that is just in denial.
If I'm going on to a dating site and someone has written "curvy" to describe their body, then they better look like Bo Derek and not Beth Ditto! Geesh, people.
140
@114 - Hmmm, if a 14 yr. old gay boy were being beaten up on the daily due to homophobia in Minnesota & I posted it here....would the entire community not immediately call the school board?
You would.

It's the same damned thing. Too bad you're reverence of Dan supercedes your own need to preserve your civil rights.
141
And yes,I spelled you're wrong. Your!
142
@139 - THIS. Thank you.
143
@THIN -- I think you are going to have to deal with the fact that you like something about women that most women do not like about themselves. So you have to be very sensitive when you offer compliments. Don't compliment rolls of fat, or grab them affectionately if the girl doesn't like being reminded of them, e.g., just say, I love your body, and touch where she seems comfortable.

When you say "chubby" do you mean chubby or do you mean you like obese girls? If the latter, you may have trouble ever finding a woman who agrees that her weight is attractive. Most obese women I know expect to be loved in spite, not because of, their weight. They know it's not healthy for them. If the girls are just chubby, then I agree with Dan's advice. It takes women a little time to get with being chubby, or having the wrong hair, or not having big breasts, or good legs, but eventually we come around. Not in our teens, unfortunately.
144
i've never been thin in my life. it took me a long, long while to like my body...mostly because i worked in a plus sized clothing store and realized that it's not your size, it you..and how you carry yourself. once i figured that out, i became a different person, a sexual person, i accepted men's compliments about my body for what they were, appreciation of my womanly body that appealed to them. a couple of men i dated were heavy themselves and i thought they were hot, so why not the same? i've also dated really thin men who dated me for me and loved it. it's only when i've found men who want me BECAUSE i'm plus sized, before they even know who i am that i get upset. and i think every body type of woman feels this way. no one wants to be wanted just for the way they look, the want to be appreciated and complimented by their men that the man loves their body type, but they want a foundation of something more...a connection that would last even if they gained/lost whatever. i know a few models and i know they get just as irritated by men who want her before they even know her name and never even WANT to find out more. my husband loves my curves, but he loves ME better and that...that's the key to me feeling confident in myself and that confidence leads me to feel sexy as hell..
145
Dan, today is the first time I've read your column, and I'm quite enjoying it. I was told you were quite mean to bigger people, but your reply to THIN was quite sensitive to what overweight people can go through, and respectful to the fact that they *are* people, and I appreciate that.
146
Dan Savage, I know people wale on you a lot, but you are such a damn net force for good. Thanks for this column and for all the fantastic stuff you do.
147

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Ann Taurus

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