The first letter is a study in the cheater's control issues. She'd like Dan to tell the world to listen to their therapist? Why should they or we? I fired my Psychologist last summer after I realised that everything I need to know comes from within. The notion that anyone needs to "listen to their therapist" is ridiculous. I think her partner should just dump her and move on to someone who has the same attitude to relationships as he does.
She is just trying to change this guy to suit what SHE wants and that isn't real life. Why doesn't she just find a guy who she actually likes and then she won't have to go to a therapist at all. She could work on her self-esteem issues as well. SHE cheated and that is always rooted in the panic of "missing out" but without the courage of being alone. Hey, you came into this world alone, you'll leave it alone. Learn to think for yourself. I hope she reads this.

@96 Hunter78

I think the run-on italics are due to some commenter forgetting to close their html tags (and the comment system not catching it).

@68 - I see the bitter, hate-filled troll is back. Look, honey, take some responsibility for YOUR life and stop looking to women to tell you "how" to live. Wah, wah, wah, that's all you do when you come on here!
For your sake, go and find out what makes you happy and then understand that THAT is what you are meant to be sharing with the world, NOT this hatefulness and ugly bitterness towards women.
Like and then love yourself more and you will get over the obsession.

EricaP

Sorry to have intruded on your conversation with BlackRose, but I maintain that I don't know, nor have ever even heard of, a guy who kept up with the vaginal penetration when his partner wasn't enjoying it. In my experience guys like to feed their egos by being really good in bed. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I really haven't seen any evidence to support the theory that lots of guys just keep pounding away while their partner is bored to tears/chafed. Never had such a thing happen to me, never had any friend complain about such thing, and I've heard my friends complain about everything sex-related that they don't like; I've never heard it mentioned anywhere.

@104, if your partner, like Chicago girl, is all happy with lengthy PIV sex, then that's rainbows and kittens! Yay! (It's not a mechanical question of lubrication, for me; things just get numb after a while and the thrusts don't feel sexual, just stupid.)

@109, see @57. It's not just me.

All I'm saying, is that I think, general rule, 5-15 minutes of PIV should be considered standard (Wiki: "Men typically reach orgasm 5–10 minutes after the start of penile-vaginal intercourse"). If you are routinely thrusting for 45 minutes to an hour, don't tell yourself that makes you a great lover. It may, if she likes it, or it may not, if she doesn't. Make sure your partner enjoys that, or make it up to her in other ways. If I knew a half-hour massage was coming, I'd be more tolerant of the extra half hour of thrusting.

@105: "[women] don't want to feel like he can't get off from screwing them"

This is exactly right. After a certain point, especially if the PIV goes on and on but doesn't end in male orgasm... It's just demoralizing.

EricaP (@110, @111), my personal experience confirms your data. I'm a guy who takes quite a while to come: under PIV conditions, about 30 minutes, at least (but note PIV is not my favorite thing to do with a woman in bed). Now, often enough women insisted on PIV with me, so I obliged; and there was variation. Some were like Chicago girl and loved to go on forever; some didn't like it after a few minutes (in many cases they thought I wanted it, they were no so thrilled by it themselves).

Curiously, even those who loved it often enough didn't come from PIV; they just said it 'felt hot and great' or something like that. (I've been with only one girl who could come easily from PIV sex alone, and who loved it that way.)

@110

I seem to be doing a terrible job of expressing myself on this forum. I never said it was just you, I was simply responding to you. Also, @113, I never said that I liked PIV to go on forever, all I said was that it was not my experience that guys liked to go on forever even if their partner was not enjoying themselves. As far as vaginal intercourse goes, I generally do get bored with it after 15 or 20 minutes. But that's just me.

@113 - suddenly I'm quite curious about what that favorite thing is :-) (Note, not asking, just enjoying my flash/flush of curiosity and letting it spark some fantasies :-)

@114 - sorry for misunderstanding... I thought you'd never heard of women being unhappy with an extended PIV session. Yet here we were in this thread. Or see @78: "it was a huge relief to be let off the super-performance hook." I agree that good-hearted men believe they are being good lovers by lasting an hour; I just want to get the idea out there that their partners may not agree.

Real super-performers in bed are those with the interpersonal skills to get the conversation going about what each person honestly likes. I don't think you can do it all with body language, when women are socially trained to moan and writhe in order to persuade men that they are good lovers.

Thanks again for your great column, Dan.

I'm sorry if I pissed you off.
I have inadvertently been pissing a lot of people off lately.

Looks like your boy Rick Santorum is fast tracked to be the next President! This is not the time to just roll over and give up! He CAN be stopped, it's a longshot but we have to try!

@115

Um, fine. I'm sure we can all rest easy now that the idea that not all women like to be pounded for hours on end is "out there," although where you got the sense that I disputed this idea is still beyond me. Everyone's sexual needs are idiosyncratic; I though that was sort of a given here on the Savage Love comment board.

@22 - having been in a similar situation, I agree. Except in my case my husband did end it with the other woman - after a year. And then took up with a new other woman. Still professing love, refusing to move out 'for the kids' sake. Anyone in this situation, save yourself. Don't waste one more minute trying to work it out with a cheating liar while your life wastes away. Its not worth it.

@118 - see @109. That's where you disputed the idea that women are often pounded beyond what they enjoy. Everyone's sexual needs may be idiosyncratic, but common themes emerge. For instance, women who enjoy straight PIV for more than twenty minutes are rare.

haven't seen anyone address this, so I will. How do we know that YNGC is a woman? I've re-read the letter and don't see it. Now, it certainly SOUNDS like it's a woman, but we don't know for sure, do we?

@122

I didn't dispute that some women don't enjoy extended bouts of vaginal intercourse, I simply said that I was unaware, in my experience, of lots of men that persist in pounding a woman for their own pleasure when they know she's not enjoying it.

"men encourage each other to last as long as possible, because who gives a shit if the woman is no longer enjoying it."

That's your comment that I dispute. The whole men-encourage-each-other-to-last-as-long-as-possible-because-fuck-women-and-their-pleasure thing. For the love of christ, I never said that every woman likes long PIV sessions, I never said that *I* like extended PIV sessions, I never said that *you* liked them. I said "that I don't know, nor have ever even heard of, a guy who kept up with the vaginal penetration when his partner wasn't enjoying it. " I also said "Your average guy probably tries to last longer because that's what HE thinks is necessary to be a good lover." THAT'S ALL I FUCKING SAID. I said I didn't think that lots of women are being pounded by guys who were *knowingly* ignoring their sexual needs, and I said this because that is my experience in the matter. Is that so fucking difficult to understand? Perhaps I was not explicit enough with the whole men consider their partner's needs thing, but I thought that repeatedly saying that men want to be awesome lovers and that's why they try to take longer sort of implied that.

From 120 to ankylosaur,

"I'm a guy who takes quite a while to come: under PIV conditions, about 30 minutes, at least."

I'm calling bullshit.

___________
Ding! Ding! We have a winner here! THIS is why "guys think they have to go all night." You see folks, it isn't about "pleasing a woman" it is the idiotic "male competition" thing where some other guy will "call bullshit" on some other guy who says it takes him longer than the other guy to get off.
It is NOT about women and never has been about women and it never will be.
To the woman on this thread who wanted to get it "out there" that not all women like to be pounded until the cows come home? YOU are very astute and absolutely right. Why? Because it doesn't matter how many of the minority of women, who, for whatever reason, encourage a man to "go all night," or what they have to say because THEY will always find a man who is obsessed with that very thing: going on forever. You are right because the silly notion needs to be addressed if more and more people are to enjoy good sex.
Now that we see that is isn't some societal pressure on men to "perform" but simply the silly, locker room, boys talk that has created this unreal expectation, we can move forward.
To the dude who called the "bullshit," you also mentioned the word, "troll" in another post.
Honey, you ARE one of the trolls on this thread. You and that other dude, the "professor" are both trolls who show up to throw some ignorant comment or whiny argument onto the thread instead of actually learning something about, well, in this case, sex or maybe even, life in general.
For the record, and this is a FACT: there are almost 7 billion people on this planet so there is a very real possibility that there are thousands of men who need to go on for half an hour to "get off."
The world does not stop at the end of your doorstep.
Troll, indeed.
Alas, I'm sure someone on this thread will pick up on one tiny word and then run with it instead of coming out from under the rock and extending their minds a bit past their own pre-conceived notions. I won't be back because what I've written is solid but is only understood by those who have (a) had a lot of sex and (b) have lived a lot of experiences. If you haven't done either of those things then you will "argue" it. Have at it.

YNGC cheated on her boyfriend but yet says that "we're working on his "control issues." Had my partner lied and cheated on me I might like to regain some control in that relationship. YNGC's boyfriend might be dicking around in therapy, and if that's the case, yeah she might need to call him out on it and/or end the relationship. I'm skeptical, however, about YNGC's portrayal of the situation as I don't get a sense of accountability. Shouldn't they also be working on her lack of respect for her partner issues? It also sounds like there's more going on here. She cheated on him three years ago, but told him nine months ago--why is that? What happened that made her confess her transgression after three years or even at all?

This is not to pick on EBTS, as she's doing all the right things, i.e. communicating with her boyfriend, trying to understand what's going on with, which is refreshing after YNGC 's letter. But she used this phrase that tweaks me: "he's got all the moves." That phrase always makes me wince partly because it reminds me of an 80's movie with Tom Cruise (or some other interchangeable actor who was in their 20's at that time) called All the right moves, but also because it sounds sleazy in an unfun way. This is not Dancing with the stars. There are no patented "moves" with sex. Yeah, everybody has a particular way that they move their body, or things they like to do. But there's no one move that pleases all women or men. It's more about paying attention and being able to recognize what your partner likes.

@124, our current disagreement is whether men, generally, are *effectively* considering their partners’ preferences, or only *superficially* considering their partners’ preferences, in a context where women often don't say what they like. Women should communicate what they want, but since women are also supposed to build up a man's ego in bed, it's hard to be honest. It takes a super-performer like cvilletop's lover @78 to speak up and redirect the action at the risk of hurting his feelings.

Three times this year, I found myself getting this extended treatment. The guys presumably thought I liked it, because I was being wildly enthusiastic to get them to come. But it was a drag. If a guy really can't come without extended PIV, I wouldn't mind being cooperative. I'd be annoyed if I thought they could come after a more reasonable time (15 minutes), but were holding off for their own pleasure (as BlackRose has suggested). In that case I would want them to have heard somewhere, maybe on Slog, that women often don't like that.

@128

Dude, I think that if a girl is writhing and moaning with pleasure while enduring a pounding she does not enjoy, that can't be blamed on the guy! If a person is actively deceiving their partner, they can't turn around and resent the guy for not reading their goddamn mind. I agree that a lot of guys may have bought into the idea that women always love extended PIV, so of course it's to everyone's benefit that it be discussed, but what bugged me about your original comment was your explicit assertion that guys keep it up to be assholes, knowingly ignoring their partner's feelings. To that point, did BlackRose suggest that he routinely ignored his partner's feelings? I thought he said that there was give and take, but which I assumed he meant that there was open communication on these points. I understand that it can be hard to be honest in bed, but if that's a problem, a girl has to work on that herself. It's always a good thing to check up with your partner when you've been doing a particular thing for awhile, but if someone chooses to interpret the ecstatic moans of his partner as encouragement, I don't see how that indicates that he doesn't give a shit about his partner's pleasure. The example offered by @78 actually supports my point: he did it because he thought women liked it, not because he did; he was serving *her* pleasure, not his own. All of his partners who'd been dishonest on this point were to blame for their own dissatisfaction (at least in that part of it). Do you really think it's a good idea to encourage men to distrust the signals we give in bed? Should a guy stop every 30 seconds and ask their partner if she's enjoying herself because he read on Slog that women fake it? Women need to show some goddamn agency in these matters, and if it's hard for them they need to work on that. Don't blame this problem on malicious guys.

@129 Every 30 seconds? No. But I do think guys should routinely check in after 20 minutes of non-stop PIV. At that point, they do not get to assume that women's moans are genuine. I don't ever fake orgasm, but men need us to exaggerate our enthusiasm at certain moments. See this study, which says female copulatory vocalizations appear most often before and simultaneously with male ejaculation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20480…

I think guys should exaggerate their enthusiasm for going down on women, and I think women should exaggerate their enthusiasm in bed as well. But then men have to have a realistic understanding of what women probably really like. I know a guy's jaw is tired after a while with oral sex, so if I'm close to orgasm, I'll tell him that, and if I'm not close, I'll stop the action. Guys should understand that, for most women, 30 minutes of PIV is a lot to ask. If he can come at 20 minutes, he should do so. If he's close, he should say that and keep going. If he's just taking his time because it's fun for him (and this is where I put BlackRose), or because he thinks he owes it to his partner, then he should stop and get a verbal reassurance that this activity is what the woman wants too.

Courtesy of the Wall Street Journal:
In the study, which included a survey of 71 women: 66% of the women reported using vocalization as a way to speed their partner toward the end, saying they did so because of boredom, discomfort, or pain, as well as because of time limitations.

@129, 130:

I try not to be an asshole and I try to engage in open communication and give and take. But since chicago girl has never heard of such a thing, I'll admit that there have been times when I've pounded away at someone for my own pleasure, even if she didn't enjoy it. I doubt I'm the only guy or the least considerate guy to do so. Now I try to communicate about it more, be more considerate, and give back as well. (The 30 minute massage deal sounds good to me.)

I don't think you're right that a woman enjoying PIV for more than 20 minutes is rare. I know you don't enjoy lengthy PIV, EricaP, but there are plenty of women who do. You could speculate that they're lying or faking their enjoyment to me, of course, but without some reason to think that, I'm not going to agree.

I don't have statistics about how common or rare liking lengthy PIV is, but you seem to be asking men to assume every woman is like you, even if her words and actions suggest otherwise. This doesn't seem reasonable to me. I do agree that it's a good idea to have a conversation and make sure she's enjoying it and it's a good length for her: I don't agree that your 5-15 minute standard applies across the board. There are just too many variables: for instance, lubrication changes with a woman's monthly cycle, was there oral first, is lube being used, did the woman come first, and so on. Everyone is different, every sex session is different, and talking about it is important.

It also just occurred to me that you may be using condoms, which changes everything because they tend to dry out and irritate pussies and dicks.

@132 "even if her words and actions suggest otherwise". All I'm asking is that you get it from her in words. Words. Not moans. I'm not discounting her words, just her moans.

(For shorter bouts of PIV, moans will do, as most women like it. I continue to believe that longer bouts of PIV require better confirmation that she likes it.)

@130 Huh. Personally, I've found guys who are always seeking verbal confirmation slightly annoying, especially when I'm clearly enjoying myself. Your WSJ poll seems to cover women who are trying to get their partners to come, not women who are being pounded after communicating a desire to stop. Saying that past a certain time limit a guy can't trust your non-verbal communication? Fuck that.

@132 I didn't mean to suggest I'd never heard of men being insensitive lovers, I just said it wasn't common in my experience. Some are better than others, but in my experience the ego trip for most guys, assholes included, comes from pleasuring a woman, not subjecting her to sex she doesn't enjoy. Guess I just don't know as many insensitive bastards as you and Erica.

@134 Again, so happy to hear you're having good sex. I'm writing for people who are not quite sure that their partners are happy. And on behalf of the women who are not happy. Not you.

@136: "Shouldn't it be fifty-fifty, sometimes it goes for the length of time he wants, other times the length of time she wants?"

Thank you! An acknowledgment that women might not love the PIV for the same length of time the guy does. Exactly. Both partners can agree to short sessions most weeknights; then on weekends they can take turns, one night lengthy PIV for him, and one night lengthy cunnilingus for her.

(Usual Disclaimer: I think more women than men like lengthy cunnilingus sessions, and I think more men than women like lengthy PIV sessions. If your mileage varies, then adjust accordingly so both parties are getting what they want.)

I'm sorry, you cheated on your boyfriend and your therapy is working on "his issues?" Quit worrying about what your boyfriend is doing and address yourself. If you are using therapy to feel superior to your boyfriend, then you are lying to yourself, him and the therapist, and wasting everyone's time and your money.

@EricaP, why would you keep moaning when you're not enjoying it anymore? if it's uncomfortable or painful, speak the fuck up--don't rely on him to start that conversation.

I agree that people shold be checking up during sex, but I can understand why a guy would just keep going if he werehaving fun, and his partner seemed to be having fun because she was moaning, etc. I just don't understand why you don't speak up, if you have bad sex. maybe a lot of women have bad sex, but maybe it's partially their fault if they insist on pretending to be enjoying themselves when they're not. if long sex is a serious problem for you, you can bring it up beforehand if that's easier than SPEAKING UP WHEN YOU'RE UNCOMFORTABLE.

@140 Many women (not just me) make sexy noises in bed to speed their partner toward orgasm, because of their own "boredom, discomfort, pain... [or] time limitations"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20480…
http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/0…

This is normal. You guys can say that it's all women's fault for being deceitful. But if you don't take it into consideration, you are not actually being a good lover, regardless of how you see yourself.

These guys who don't understand that it's a drag to be pounded after a while ("just use more lube and keep going")- should try getting pounded for an hour sometime.

@140: Just cutting on on your question to EriaP to say that while I'm normally all in favour of direct communication, I totally see where Erica is coming from in this situation.

I, too, have moaned in order to get guys to hurry the hell up and come. I assumed that they were just having a hard time "getting there" and tried to provide some extra stimulation to help things along - because, after all, I do love the feeling of my partner coming inside me (now I'm wondering whether they were purposely holding back for my benefit...ugh, how horribly ironic that would've been).

But times that the moans didn't work, I found I'd kinda painted myself into a corner - if I go straight from moaning to "Yeah, my vag hurts, stop now" then my partner will know the moans were fake and he'll probably distrust all my sounds from then on. So it's a difficult thing.

@whoever it was who suggested I use more lube to help with discomfort during long sessions of penetration - it's not a texture issue for me, it's a size issue. I'm tight and my boyfriend is big: my vagina feels uncomfortably overstretched after ten or twenty minutes regardless of how slippery I am.

Also: I agree that when men try to last forever, it's usually for women's benefit. The thing is, most of these guys aren't asking us if it's what we want.

I've had many partners who wanted to last a long time in order to impress me. I was like "I don't care about that stuff. If you want to please me, make friends with my clitoris."

Some of these guys listened and adjusted their goals accordingly. A surprising number of them, however, just kept insisting on fucking me all night long while refusing to go down on me or give me handjobs. You know, to prove what a stud they were.

Guys have to realize that their idea of what women like might be very different from the truth.

@EricaP, I'm a woman. and I agree that men SHOULD check in, but if they don't (which seems to be a persistent problem for you), then you should speak up. you can complain about the societal reasons why women and men act the way they do; you can blame porn or culture or whatever, and you might be right to an extent, but if you want a better sex life, you have to speak up, even if it means momentary awkwardness.

Wonderful column and especially the conversations going on in the comments. Communication is the key.

@145 I've made these changes in my life. I'm verbal now about my desires before (and while) having sex with new guys, and I try not to worry about their orgasms. But, guys, that's just me. It took a cultural change for most guys to realize that most women need clitoral stimulation. Their partners didn't tell them directly -- the culture changed.

I want men to realize that regardless of the sexy sounds she is making, your partner probably doesn't like an hour of PIV sex. Most don't. If you don't like that answer, ask her yourself.

The fact that many women (or men?) may moan or use some other indirect communication to hasten the end means neither that this is a good method of communicating nor that failure to pause regularly to investigate whether moans are genuine makes one a bad lover. Isn't it best to simply be clear about likes and dislikes?

Yes, I know it can be hard to be bluntly honest, since we're so well-trained to dissimulate about sex, but why not unlearn that unhelpful behavior? If you're tired of having sex a certain way, just say so; if you're worried about offending your partner, find a way to soften the blow with your enthusiasm. For example, maybe things were going so great that your entire body has exhausted all of its fluids, so you must now pause for rehydration and try some other approach.

Meanwhile, I don't understand the need to defend Prof. Bailey. Is there some danger of being fired, or is it just criticism? Well, criticism is going to come with the territory when you stage live sex acts in class. No surprise there. I'm not sure why it was so important to have a live demonstration, as opposed to other methods. What educational value, beyond the prurient interest, demanded this?

"Cheating is natural.

All our primate cousins do it, when given a chance."

It doesn't surprise me if some of our primate cousins have sex with multiple partners, or one primary and other secondary partners. However, it does surprise me that they make agreements with one another to be exclusive. Do their governments sanction these arrangements, or is it a religious thing?

@149: You win the thread!

@141, 147: My problem with these posts is that you insist on telling guys what "most women" want and don't want. From what I've read and experienced, you seem to be an unusual case. I do ask women what they like. I just don't believe that most women don't enjoy lengthy PIV sometimes, assuming no condoms, lube if necessary, and their partner paying attention to them and asking what they like.

@143: I'm baffled at this idea that moans would make a guy hurry up! If my partner moans, I usually think, "Oh, she's enjoying this, I better keep doing what I'm doing now and not come yet." If you want your partner to come, just say "sorry, but I'm getting sore, can you come fast for me?" Not a big deal. I hate being rushed, but of course if you need me to come fast I will. Also, a lot of the time I can't come and I'm just enjoying the stimulation of PIV, so I'd just stop if it was hurting my partner. PIV is not always about coming.

@150, have you, personally, ever received a vigorous thrusting for an hour? Have you seen any women (or men) on here posting to say that they really love receiving an hour-long fuck? Wouldn't they be coming out of the woodwork if I were completely off-base?

Question: since you say you ask women what they like, tell us, of the women you have asked, how many have told you they loved lengthy PIV, and how many were less enthusiastic?

@150, also, have you ever said to a woman, "sorry, my jaw is getting sore, could you come fast for me?" Guys this year sometimes asked me to come. It makes me super nervous and makes it much, much harder for me to come.

Do most guys like being asked to come? It doesn't feel like too much pressure?

On the PIV debate -- my experience aligns with Erica's. That most women I know don't like lengthy PIV -- I'd say 20 mins being top, while ideal being 10 mins or less with lots of prior foreplay -- kissing and oral or hand stimulation. Sometimes sex sessions can go on for quite a while, especially on the weekends, but it's not non-stop PIV.

For me personally, if I've already had a clitoral orgasm, I can't handle long PIV -- everything is just so sensitive that would destroy me. The only time I think I actually like long PIV is if I've been drinking considerably -- whiskey just deadens things and takes a long time for me to get to orgasm, if at all. At the time, I don't notice it, but man do I feel it the next day! If I'm in the mood for a lot of sex, I much prefer multiple rounds of orgasms than one long session. So the total overall PIV may be long, but it's not all non-stop, being punctuated with a lot of oral or other stimulation and rest periods.

I would be surprised if a lot of women said they like PIV for more than 20 mins. That certainly wouldn't align with my experience (or those of my gfs).

Everyone who goes in to couple's counseling needs to read this first:

http://www.smartmarriages.com/hazardous.…

@154: I would, but I've become allergic to marriage.

EricaP, KL, et al., though you keep insisting that enjoyment of lengthy vaginal sex is rare, I am feebly raising my hand "yes" over here, anxious about being branded an abnormal woman. My impression of hetero women is just the opposite of yours: most I've known well enough to know such details prefer a man who can make it last that long. But mileage varies, so I wouldn't insist that one way or the other is typical or normative. Maybe that's why I'm so happily monogamous: I found the guy with whom I can comfortably enjoy these longer-term sessions. It's almost always pleasant, and if not, there's usually some reason and I just say what it is. My back is sore, or whatever. We try something else. There's almost always something else one can turn to if needed--isn't that grand?

I also make noises when I'm having fun, and generally can't help making noises. I don't fake making noises, and if I were going to fake making noises in order to get my partner to do something that is precisely the opposite of the message I'm communicating with the noises, I sure wouldn't blame him for not understanding me. My goodness, the man is not a mind reader. When you moan, he may think you want more. I am reminded of the Arnold Lobel story about the Mouse and the Crickets. "I want you to stop and you are giving me MORE!" says the mouse. "What's that you say? You want MORE music? Ok..." say the crickets. Rough paraphrase. Just tell the poor guy to stop the music already.

I'm certainly not going to tear you down -- I've been waiting for women like you to speak up.

So, here's a question. Would it bother you if a man paused after screwing for about twenty minutes, and asked if you wanted to change activities (or positions)? Would that make him seem insecure, from your perspective? Or are you happily able to discuss sexual preferences in bed?

The thing is, in the lengthy PIV sessions that annoy me and some other women, the guy is on top, pinning the woman down. If I were free to move around, I would just get up. But pinned to the bed, I have to use words instead. (In my experience, silence wasn't taken as a "stop that, I've had enough") Can you see why I think, if guys checked how the woman was doing after twenty minutes, that would be a more friendly way for them to keep on having sexy fun, rather than for her to have to say "Could you stop, please?"

Suzy -- So most of your girlfriends like PIV sex that goes on for more than 20 mins straight? Just making sure that I understand what you're saying.

If that's the case, wow, it's definitely been the opposite of my experience. I wonder if there is some regional difference, or cultural or religious reason to explain the difference.

The only friend I know that likes long PIV sex really doesn't experience any foreplay. In her case, I think she and her husband aren't that sexually adventurous and may even frown upon a lot of types of foreplay (oral I know for sure is frowned upon in their marriage, for both people). If that were the case, it would makes sense to me because if I wasn't getting any warm-up, I could see needing a lot more PIV to get to orgasm. Is that the same in your case? Or do you dig lots of foreplay and lots of PIV?

For me, with all the foreplay, I feel like I'm ready to burst by the time we get to actual PIV (unless we're doing slow and steady Al Green style which can last a lot longer, though I'm often not that patient at that point). So I literally just can't imagine a lot of PIV unless there was some other reason that there wasn't a lot of arousal before getting to PIV (i.e. alcohol lessening sensation or lack of foreplay).

@159, see @147. Everything you say could apply to clitoral stimulation. Most women didn't tell their men that they needed it in order to have orgasms. Most women didn't start getting clitoral stimulation from their men until our culture told men to do that.

"THIS is why a lot of men don't like women"
Yes, I get that. Glad we don't know each other in real life.

BTW, would people stop saying that I'm imposing my view on the rest of the world by making a generalization? Mileage varies, yadda yadda, but most women really do need some clitoral stimulation, and letting men know that is no insult to the fewer women who don't like clitoral stimulation.

I'm open to evidence (like Suzy's testimony) that some women do like lengthy PIV. But KL, perversecowgirl, Chicago girl, Frederica Bimble and I, are here saying that we don't. It's not unreasonable to generalize from our cumulative experience. Individual preferences may vary, but generalizations are not inherently invalid.

EricaP -- I think I ought to chime in to give my 2 cents.

After I've had a great deal of down action, including small orgasms, I do love lengthy PIV, most of the times I can't get enough of it ; when I do get enough, I'm not afraid anymore to tell so. During PIV I try to repress my moans to help my partner stay focussed, because it often ends sooner than I'd want.

I would not mind at all if my patner stopped and asked me whether I still enjoyed it after 20 minutes. I'm sure I would give a pretty hot answer.

But! Whenever I've not had good oral first, I find PIV dull, boring and tiresome, and 5 minutes is enough ; the longer it lasts, the more I hate it.

When I was younger I only met bad lovers. One would come inside me and have no expectation of enjoyment for me. It lasted as long as he felt equal to, some minutes, and that was already too long for me, but as a first-timer I was to shy to ask for it to stop. The next relationship bragged beforehand that he would make me moan. I was all, nice, I'd like to check that out. But I felt nothing more than before. So I did moan to make it stop, since that was the codeworld, so to speak. From then on, I often used moanings to make PIV stop - since guys would never offer oral and good girls don't ask (a real man knows how to pleasure a woman better than herself, don't you know ?).

So I moaned my way out of PIV until I read somewhere another way to make it stop : gently rub your partner's perineum with your fingers while you're being pounded away, if it's not enough make a tight ring around his penis with your thumb and your index and voila. No need to pretend you're enjoying yourself. Amazingly, the husband had no trouble having sex with me that way, after it had become crystal-clear that I did not feel a thing. Eventually he did request me "to fake-moan in order to highten his orgasm". Asshole.

I'm much happier now that I've discovered respectful, shared and oral sex thanks to an awesome guy ! No more faked moans. I felt like a prostitute, now I feel like a woman.

I'm with EricaP, I don't like long PiV either. Sometimes it really hurts. But I feel bad telling him we're stopping when he didn't get off, and it took me a long time to figure out how to tell him if I realize I'm going to get sore soon and I'd like him to stop as soon as he can. Too often that can come across that I'm bored and rushing him, and then that messes it up for him. When I was younger I regrettably just let my boyfriend at the time do it as long as he wanted, trying to ignore it when it started to hurt. One time it hurt so bad that I had to stop and wound up curled up in a ball crying. After that I started trying to speak up, though unfortunately I can't say that he ever asked me if I was OK during sex after that. Today I'll stop a guy if he's hurting me, though I've also learned ways to tell a guy if I'm going to be hitting a limit soon. The best way to do it without making him feel rushed is to put on your best sexy voice, grope and kiss him passionately, and moan "I want to feel you cum inside me." Of course, that does take some style to pull off, and it took me *years* to figure it out. But the bottom line is, guys, please listen to EricaP. You might just be dating someone like my 19 year old self who doesn't know how to say what she needs yet, and a little understanding and space will be amazing to her.

Exasperated -- I understand your exasperation and I generally agree with your conclusions. People have to learn to speak up for themselves and take responsibility for their own happiness, sexual and otherwise. However, you are failing to acknowledge a HUGE social divide between men and women generally -- and I think this is what EricaP is getting at more than anything.

Women in American culture (and I think in many cultures) are socially conditioned to be more nurturing and accommodating of their partners whereas men are not. Men have to learn to think of others whereas women have to learn to think of themselves. As we gain experience and hopefully wisdom, both sexes become more balanced -- men naturally think of others and women aren't afraid to think of themselves too.

As a result, women, as a gross overgeneralization tend towards indirect communication and men towards more direct -- the great Mars-Venus divide. Women are far more likely to "fake it" or put up with less than stellar sex for the sake of their partners, especially as it is a bigger deal to a man's ego than it is a woman (women don't generally worry about being studs or having performance anxiety whereas men are constantly comparing themselves to one another in this regard). Sure, as women get older and more experienced, they tend to be more empowered and speak up for themselves. However, some may never. So there is some truth to what Erica is saying -- Men are more likely to do what makes them feel good whereas women are more likely to focus on making sure their partner gets off. Especially when you throw in our Puritan roots where there is still a lot of shame regarding female sexuality, this really can't be surprising.

I'm not saying it's right or something that should be encouraged, just that we shouldn't be blind to the cultural landscape either and pretend that men and women function in the same manner.

@165 I said "most women," not "no women."

Yes, women should take responsibility for their own sexual pleasure. I do. But many don't, currently, and that's a fact. If it's fine with you for your woman to endure sex with you, rather than enjoy it, then continue on your merry way.

@166, I absolutely ask how his jaw is doing after 20 minutes of oral. If he's sore, I thank him and find another way to get to orgasm.

@165 : I don't know about your culture, but in mine a young woman who asks for specific sex acts "is a whore". And as you know, whores get raped, "that'd teach them". Young women know and most won't ask. Mature women will. I hope.

As for your comment on me : keep track, will ya ? The first boyfriends never did oral. The husband never did oral. I never asked 'cause I was a well-bred good girl, and all I got was shitty PIV. Though knowing I had no sexual pleasure myself, not before, not during, not after, not ever, the husband asked for fake moans for heightening his orgasms - which he always had, even if I hurt and asked him to stop now, he wouldn't stop until he came inside me. That's as assholish as it gets. The husband has now been out of the picture for some years, divorce proceedings are slow over here.

The now-boyfriend is of the pretty unusual kind (for here) who gives a fuck about his female partners, and he loves giving oral and I can't get enough of PIV with him - and I try not to moan, at his own request, though it's real heartfelt moans now, because it would make it too hot for him and it would cut short our shared pleasure. And besides, we 69 for oral : I like all of him, and there's no way I'd let him have a piece of me while not having a piece of him. It's mutual and shared Savage love. Get it ?

@169, can I just say that you are the hottest thing around?

EricaP : thanks, you made my day. Well, night, actually... I should get some sleep now.

@172, you won't register, so it's hard to figure you out. But you're quite the feminist, with your insistence that women speak up for themselves in bed. Doesn't mean you have experienced sex with a guy.

So, have you been fucked by a guy for an hour? Often? And did you like it?

Exasperated -- I think it's sad that you interpret such things as weak and spineless. It seems that you've taken a very masculine-based viewpoint and want everyone to conform to that, both men and women. It's funny how "equality" can get so misconstrued that way.

How about something a tad more balanced? Perhaps encouraging women to speak up for themselves (and fostering an environment where that is safe, encouraged and appreciated) but also encouraging men to consider their partners? It can go both ways.

Answering a few questions:
First, I don't know what most of my female friends prefer, sexually, because I usually don't get into that level of detailed discussion about sex with them. However, the ones I've known well enough to have discussed it with seem to favor vaginal sex, the lengthier duration the better. I don't know how common these opinions are; I'm only saying that we shouldn't assume much about what women like or dislike, as a class. Maybe most women don't like such a long duration. However, they need to tell the partner, if that's how they feel.

Personally, I prefer vaginal sex. If I had to choose either/or between vaginal sex and other things like oral, I would almost always choose vaginal. So that may explain why I like doing it for longer than other people may. However, I have a good partner for it; with a different partner, maybe my preference would change, who knows.

I wouldn't mind if the partner paused during the act to ask me how I was doing. However, frequent inquiries could become tiresome. More importantly, I take moaning to be a sign of pleasure, so I definitely would not fault someone who keeps going when the partner is essentially communicating, Yes!

I can see why Exasperated is exasperated on feminist grounds. It's not okay that women give mixed messages about sex because they're insecure. Why would it ever be good for women to act like they want it when they really don't? Isn't this precisely the lousy excuse some men use for not respecting women's wishes about sex? You have to say what you want; you can't say (or moan) one thing and expect your partner to conclude that you mean the opposite. Meanwhile, the partner needs to respect your wishes. To me, that's balance. I can see why some of you would argue that women need men to be more attentive, but honestly I don't think that's a pro-woman approach in the end. In short, expecting one party to be a mind-reader while the other one dissembles is neither good nor balanced.

Suzy, I hate to break it to you, but in most long-term relationships there are times when one person wants sex and the other person is not feeling horny, but does it out of love and devotion. When I choose to have sex with my husband, even though I'd rather sleep, isn't it good for me to pretend to be enthusiastic, and, yes, moan and writhe, rather than act like I'm doing him a favor?

Personally, I don't believe in faking it. If other people do, okay, but then they can't complain when their partners are so successfully duped by the fakery that they don't pause every 20 minutes to ask whether the moans are real.

I also think it would be bad if you were having sex with your partner and it was hurting you or uncomfortable, but you faked enjoying it anyway. Then he becomes out of touch with what you're feeling in a serious way that's not his fault and that he probably wouldn't appreciate, if he knew the truth.

Suzy, you're a woman, right? You stop sex right away when it's not so fun for you? You tell your partner, "I'm not enjoying this blow-job right now"?

I don't ever fake orgasm, but I'll feign enthusiasm for something that my husband likes.

Somehow guys don't have a problem with generalizations about "don't use your teeth during blowjobs." Sure, each one could just speak up and tell his partner ahead of time, "hey, honey, please don't use your teeth." But since most guys don't like it, it's reasonable to spread the word.

Similarly, it's reasonable to spread the word that most women don't appreciate an hour of intercourse, and even the ones who love lengthy intercourse don't generally mind guys checking after twenty minutes if they want more.

A suggestion for the dilemma of how to indicate "I'd like you to finish up soon, please" while still sounding encouraging and all...

Whatever reasonable variation of "Come for me, baby" or "I want you to come inside me now" or whatever seems most natural and best fits your wishes. Your tone conveys the "you are doing a good job, you sexy stud", but your words convey the "Yeah, that's enough now"...

After that, any moans can reasonably be considered performance enhancement instead of false communication, especially if you mix in the occasional enthusiastic, breathy "come on" amongst your moans and "Yes!"es.

(if it's a regular problem in a relationship of he likes to go on all night and she prefers shorter, and you find it awkward to discuss mid-act, you might pre-arrange two "signals"--one for "I've had enough for me, but will keep going longer for your sake" and one for "Please stop real soon now"--that way, he never has to cut short before she's done, and can distinguish between "I'm done" and "you'd better be done soon, too"...)

I like your compromise
"you sexy stud", "that's enough now"...

And this: >>> After that, any moans can reasonably be considered performance enhancement instead of false communication, especially if you mix in the occasional enthusiastic, breathy "come on" amongst your moans and "Yes!"es.

So what was the evidence, again, for the claim that most women don't like it? I thought we recently finished discussing the fact that I like it, those of my friends with whom I've discussed it like it, and it seems strange to brand one group's preferences as the "normal" ones on the basis of anecdote.

And if we're going to compare this to using teeth during a blow job, in fact what you're saying is that it's the blower's responsibility to ask the blowee--who will be laying there reluctant to say anything truthful--whether the current use of teeth should be continued. I find that... odd. I'd rather encourage anyone who's uncomfortable to say so, and yes, I do say so when that happens. Yes, I'm a woman, and I'm not really sure why you need to ask again. Do you doubt it, because my preferences are abnormal to you? This is the problem, right here, with the assumptions.

@Suzy, I put you in the camp (per @175) that doesn't mind a guy asking around 20 minutes in whether you're still loving it. Like sissoucat (@162). There are certainly twice as many women posting on this thread to say that they don't like lengthy sex, and those that do, say they don't mind a guy checking in once. It may be anecdotal, but it seems like useful information to pass on.

Also, many women (plus, you know, Science!) agree that many women moan & writhe to get intercourse to end more quickly. I'm not making that up.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20480…

@182, also, your hijacking of the blowjob analogy doesn't work. Most guys never like teeth, not at the start, not halfway through. So we spread the word, so that kind women remember to avoid teeth.

For lengthy intercourse, most women do enjoy quite a bit of intercourse. But most women don't enjoy an HOUR of intercourse. So, kind men should try to figure out where that line is, when the intercourse has gone beyond what their partner likes. And popular culture (like Savage Love) can help by spreading the word that this is an issue for many women.

@KateRose - "If all guys thought that way, I'd never get off."

You're all gung ho about communication and speaking up for what you want. When he withdraws his penis, and you want it back in, just moan for more. I'm not about blame. I'm just trying to help men understand what's going on in bed. As I said @161, generalizations are not inherently invalid. Most women like sex to last between 5 and 20 minutes. The ones who like it to go longer have no trouble saying so, if the guy stops at 20 minutes. But guys should not feel cultural pressure to go for an hour to prove how manly they are or to please their woman, if they are just assuming she likes it and the odds are that she doesn't.

No, I don't mind if a partner occasionally asks how things are going, but the key point here is that I don't think he has any obligation to ask, nor is he a bad lover if he does not.

This is especially true when the other person is moaning in pleasure. Some women may indeed do this on purpose despite not feeling pleasure--or more to the point, when they actually want to communicate "I'm done" or "let's get this over with". However, this dissembling doesn't create any obligation for the partner, and I don't think it's a good idea in the first place.

More importantly, I'm not convinced that "most" women want a 5-20 min duration of sex, so that it should be accepted as a norm. In fact, appearing on the same page as the Science article quoted above was a link to another article, suggesting that female orgasm is associated with intercourse duration: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19170…. Maybe it's not true for all, and maybe even when it is true, a woman might not care to have sex that long on any particular occasion or with any particular partner. However, my point is: why insist on a particular preference as the default? There's so much variation, even in the preferences of the same individual on difference occasions. Spreading the word that a particular way is the preferred way doesn't seem helpful to me.

I don't think I was "hijacking" the blow job example; it simply may not work as well as intended. Like KateRose said, some guys like it. Some people might not know what the normal preference is, or might not even recognize when the teeth are slipping into the action! So I think the best way is for people to honestly say what they like or dislike, and worry much less about what's normal.

Hi Suzy,
Can you get full-text for that article? I can't tell if the female orgasm was correlating with intercourse in the 15-20 minute range, or if they did find that orgasm correlates with 45-60 minutes of intercourse. That would make a big difference to my argument, but so far, all I see is that they show that short intercourse (maybe <5 minutes) is inversely correlated with female orgasm, which doesn't surprise me.

@EricaP

"You're all gung ho about communication and speaking up for what you want. When he withdraws his penis, and you want it back in, just moan for more."

While I get what you're saying, and I would do that if it occurred, my point was this:

If a man assumed that I was moaning because I wanted him to hurry up and finish, and therefore decided to stop, while I could tell him to go back to what he was doing before, he'd be back at square one. I don't know how it is for you, but if I'm in a rythym where I'm close, and the action suddenly stops, I'm no longer close. I'm not going to be grateful that he was sensitive enough to ask me if I wanted to keep going, what the hell did he think I was moaning about?
I would be ok with a check in, possibly, if it didn't involve stopping or sounding like a check in. An occasional, "Do you like that?" is ok, so long as its not so often that it sounds like insecurity, and can even be 'dirty talk'.
But, like Suzy, I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to ask if they're doing the right thing if what they're doing is getting positive feedback.
From my experience, and in conversations I've had with friends, the people who seemed to enjoy sex the most were the people that communicated what they wanted before, during, and after. Most people exchange at least a few words prior to sex, so bring it up. And if it's a one night stand, why should you be more concerned with their feelings than they are with yours. If they're doing something wrong, tell them. You'll never see them again!
One quirk that I have occasionally is to giggle and make jokes. I personally think that sex can be funny, and laughing during can make it more enjoyable. Because I know that this could confuse a partner, I mention it before sex ever happens. This means that, if I do giggle, they're not self conscious that they're doing something wrong. Because its something that I sometimes need to do (as in, can't help it), I communicate that in advance so there is no misunderstanding.
Based on my circle, the men have a tendency to have better sex than the women, as a whole, because they ask for what they want. As soon as I took on that philosophy, I had better sex too. Yes, we should try to please our partners, but we can't do that if they won't communicate. And a lot of the people that are expecting someone to just figure it out, aren't going to answer "What do you want me to do to you?" in the first place.

(I apologize in advance for run-ons and grammatical errors that might be in this, I'm still working on my first cup of coffee.)

So, if he pulls out even to change positions, then you slip back, away from your pleasure? That's true for me if I'm on the edge of orgasm, but that neediness wouldn't go on and on and on. And, actually, backing off from an orgasm and then going towards it again can heighten the orgasm. Not so for you?

For me (and, I believe, for many women), things get numb after 15 minutes of pounding. Changing positions helps some, but, once I'm numb, the whole activity isn't sexual to me anymore. It's hard to convey that in the moment without shutting down his pleasure. And hard to convey that ahead of time without scaring him off.

I still think it's less of a burden on you to convey that you're still loving the lengthy sex, because hey, you're telling him something positive & sexy. And, even for you, wouldn't there come a point, two hours in, three hours in, where you'd like the pounding to stop already? What do you think would be a standard time when guys should stop, even if they haven't come? Or should the woman always have to tell the guy, "stop, I can't take any more", in your opinion?

Offering a compromise, in the spirit of @180...

I have been able to say things like "oh, you've worn me out, big boy" without causing offense. So, okay, the burden on me to convey that I've had enough isn't that heavy.

I'm just new to this whole problem, of how to stop sex when I'm numb but he isn't done. I like to be GGG and keep going if he's close, but I can't take the pounding forever. I do like 180's suggestions for giving the guy a clue that I'd like him to finish up -- "Come in me, big boy." But I'll ask again, if any guys are still reading -- does it bug you to be told to come, or is that okay? It bugs me to be told to come (too much pressure), but maybe that's just me.

I could hardly get through YNGC's letter without having an aneurysm. She starts off mentioning she cheated, then devotes the rest of the letter to a shit-list of observations that were basically all about how he isn't forgiving her and getting the relationship back on four wheels in the timely and attentive manner she has decided is appropriate for the level of "indiscretion" she committed.

She cheated on him, then lied to him (whether by commission or omission; she was telling lies and/or living one) for 27 months, but now they have been in therapy for 6 months to deal with... her cheating? Her lying? No, they are working on HIS "control issues", and she reports that she finds him to be "responsive" to this therapy with about the same tone someone might describe their dog's progress at obedience school. But the main reason she wrote was to tell Dan that she objects to the boyfriend finding any way of dealing with his feelings outside of the tightly-controlled circumstances and timeframe she has approved. I don't think it's solely the boyfriend's "control issues" that need to be examined here.

Of course, we need to note, as always, that we have only heard one side of the story here. Never in the time I have been reading this column has a writer provided so much evidence that someone in the relationship is behaving poorly and needs some advice to straighten them out. But the amazing thing is that all of the evidence she provided points to herself as the person who needs straightening out. She hardly mentions the guy at all, except in dismissive terms. If she's like that when she's putting on her best face for this letter that will be read by millions... what is she like in the relationship?

The level of empathy she displayed in her letter was right up there with "it puts the lotion on the skin, or it gets the hose again". Advice for YNGC's boyfriend: RUN. He needs to take whatever he can fit in a backpack and get the hell out of there. YNGC isn't just incidentally crazy, she is systematically doing everything she can to absolve herself of any wrong-doing and make it all his fault - except even if it was all his fault, she doesn't want to push the issue so much that he actually leaves, because she is more attached to her need for control than she is to him. She wants to keep him around, keep him under her thumb, keep him feeling guilty for her actions. She is manipulative, codependent, and didn't once say a single word about love, how she feels about him (other than displeasure that he isn't meeting her timetable for how quickly he should be forgiving her), remorse for her actions, the pain he might be experiencing knowing that he was her chump for the past three years... nothing. Just irritation that her efforts to mess with this guy's head were being thwarted by an outside source of information that she didn't control, a situation she attempted to remedy by asking Dan to not do his job, to not be Dan.

For both of their sakes, but most especially for the sake of the boyfriend: they need to dump each other already. This isn't a relationship, it's Abu Ghraib.

@ 192: Well, haha, there are different way of being "told" to come. I always appreciate a little verbal encouragement if she's ready. Or, if she's feeling really dom, I'm happy to comply with something more direct.

Similarly, I may tell my partner to come, but only in the context of helping her get off.

If you still have the problem of "how to stop sex when I'm numb but he isn't done," encourage him to pull out and finish himself, because (hopefully) when you tell him "it really turns me on," he'll be considerate enough to accommodate you.

@194 - you mean, like encouraging him to come all over my breasts or face - yes, I could see how that could be a win/win. And I'd be happy to lend a hand -- my hand's not numb :-)

There.

There.