Columns Mar 9, 2011 at 4:00 am

Total Recall

Comments

1
Whoa! Can I really be first?

I am so glad Sam Arora isn't my delegate. Then again, my actual delegate is't that much better. But Arora is a prime-time douche, that's for sure.
2
That sounds like one angry boyfriend. But if I were in a serious relationship for 3 years and found out I was put at risk (Did they use condoms? Did she "know" she was physically safe?) at all, especially that early on, I'd be pretty mad too. Three years is a long time to "live a lie".
3
Very true advice to HMDH, but my bet is that he is still an immature 27yo, and that's one of the reasons the bf started dating him 3 years ago. What better way to use maturity/immaturity to your advantage in a relationship than with someone that already has immaturity built into them! Twice the sex, half the effort of undermining their sense of self!
5
You forgot to tell HMDH to get tested for every STD known to man and a few that aren't. If this guy has been sleeping around on him and they aren't using protection, who knows what he's been exposed to?
6
Bullseye on why the BF in letter #1 is half-assing therapy. If I had been cheated on, went to therapy to try to rescue the relationship (or, at a minimum get the vindication of having my pain taken seriously), and the goal of therapy morphed into my control issues, I would be fucking furious. I have zero doubt that I would be pulling all kinds of passive-aggressive bullshit outside therapy, because the therapy itself was was a victim-blaming whitewash, with the official seal of approval of a licensed professional.

Yeah, I can relate a little too well to that scenario.
7
To EBTS and others with concerns about male PE:
Sounds like he's otherwise GGG. Have him thrust till he feels close, climb off before climax, and play with you using his hands or go down on you for 5 min while he calms down. After he gets you off a couple times that way and climbs back on, your sensitivity will be spectacular. Repeat as many times as y'all can stand. It'll be great.
8
Sam Arora is cray cray. He lied for an entire campaign and took more than $40k in campaign contributions.

Marriage is super close in #Marryland, and he mgiht have helped up lose. We'll know for sure this week.
9
I have preordered this book to have on my shelf so if my kids or there friends ever face similar issues they can always go to that book. I keep a open line of communication but sometimes kids need to hear it from other sources and you did just that. Thanks Dan and Terry.
10
"I will not be ignored!" Heh.

From what I've heard and read, many therapists tend to be pretty female-oriented, men don't often come out of sessions as the happy party. And am I just unevolved, or does it seem kind of silly to be in therapy for 6 months with a boyfriend of a few years?
11
I have a PE question: do the partners of these men complain that they wish intercourse lasted longer? I wonder if many men think they have a problem with PE, when they really have a problem with unrealistic expectations.
12
Canuck -- I think it may be unevolved. I've seen quite a few people go this route and it seems to makes sense to me. Frankly, I wish more couples of a couple of years would enter couples therapy BEFORE getting married--a little preventative medicine, if you will. It seems like a lot less folks would be getting married and then later divorced after a few years.
13
Dan - March 22 is my birthday. Just sayin.
14
@11 A boyfriend had this problem briefly while on medication. True premature ejaculation means that they only last a few seconds, if they even get inside. Once he came while putting on the condom. Another guy I dated came after about 30 seconds. I'm not sure if that counts as premature, but it was certainly unsatisfying, and I am extremely easy to please. Of course many people have unrealistic expectation (would anyone really want the sex to go on all night?), but I think that most people are bright enough to know the difference between PE and "he doesn't last long enough for me."
15
Wow, you were actually pretty nice to the first writer.

"I cheated on my boyfriend and now we're in counseling because of his control issues and he's not improving."

That relationship is over. She's a waste of time and so is he. Grow up, learn from your mistakes, and start over. With someone else. That advice fits both of them equally.

That was easy.
16
From what I've been able to find out, it takes most people, on average a minimum of two years to recover from an affair after you end the affair by severing all contact with lover. If you can't or won't sever all contact then the affair has not ended and it is a waste of time to try and restore a nonviable relationship. Even if successful, the LW still has at least fifteen more before her relationship to heal. Most people lack the patience to restore a relationship
17
Damn-- after three times through YNGC's letter, the only thing I read now is "I cheated on my boyfriend, kept it a secret for over two years, finally admitted it and after six months of therapy, he _still_ won't admit it's his fault! Damn you, Dan Savage!"
18
@14: Wow, do you have any idea what medication he was using that made it easier to come as a side effect? Most of them just make it harder to come. I'd really like to know... that could help a lot of people.
19
I can't figure out why I've already read the second letter. Was it posted somewhere before?
20
The boyfriend has all the right to be angry because she put him at risk of getting a sexually transmitted disease.
21
@9: Good for you, Yummietreat, but it's "their" and "an open line of communication".

@11: Oh EricaP, how cute. Don't you know that half the problems between Man and Woman come down to the insecurity of the male and his delicate Ego. PE and SI (Size Issues) are front and center here.

No matter if the woman says, "No, no it's just fine" -- or worse, says nothing -- the male will ask himself whether she's really happy with him, or if she's just being polite. And this eventually start to eat at him like Othello's over-active imagination.

There's no way out of this delightful little tango (Thanks God; you've got some sense of humor!). If he asks her to tell him The Truth, he'll only end up searching for signs of deceit. And since men don't discuss their emotional relationships honestly -- and certainly not the topics of size and stamina -- the male has nowhere else to turn for reassurance than, well, Dan Savage.

22
Posted by truth? and its consequences on March 8, 2011 at 10:47 PM @16:
"From what I've been able to find out, it takes most people, on average a minimum of two years to recover from an affair after you end the affair by severing all contact with lover. If you can't or won't sever all contact then the affair has not ended and it is a waste of time to try and restore a nonviable relationship. Even if successful, the LW still has at least fifteen more before her relationship to heal. Most people lack the patience to restore a relationship."


At some point one has to weigh the value of a possibly-healed relationship with the years you will spend hoping to save it.

My wife of 14 years became involved with another man 5 years ago. In the four years since I discovered their affair — writhing in pain all the while like, uh, an earthworm on a hot griddle? — their relationship has continued. Her promises to end it and her oaths of love and loyalty to me have become less and less convincing. But eventually, I got used to the hot griddle, and I don't cry much anymore. And since I admitted to myself that it's over — essentially shutting off all my emotions towards her and myself — I can sleep at night.

Me? I'm not sure it's worth another ten years' of therapy and trust-building. It's probably just better to end it, and put the effort into finding someone new.
23
The other thing I was wondering about with the possible preemie was maybe a previous girlfriend kinda messed with his head about sex. I had a boyfriend who could go FOREVER - we could keep each other occupied for hours. It was awesome. Some years after our breakup, after his marriage and divorce, we fell into bed and suddenly everything was over in about 5 minutes.I was like "Dude, what happened?" He explained sheepishly that his wife had impressed upon him that it was discourteous to take so long and so he'd speeded up his routine to please her. I was kind of appalled. Seriously, who doesn't appreciate sheet-tearing crazy monkey sex that goes on forever?
24
10/12 - I suppose "early therapy" is at least a sign that the catch is considered worth keeping, even if it could use a little fixing.

Canuck, you seem to half-answer your own question before you ask it. Why shouldn't YNGC be in therapy? She loves therapy. The therapist is on her side and her BF says exactly what she wants him to say. Probably that was what motivated her telling him about her infidelity. It got him into therapy, which is right where she wants him; now if only he would stop playing these annoying GAMES!

It actually would become a lot more interesting and complicated if YNGC were male, as bang would go the presumption of therapist's bias.

YNGC's saying she "admitted it" nine months ago is an artistic touch if the letter wasn't edited. What a cute way to steer the reader into the inference that poor YNGC was constantly subjected to cross-examination until she couldn't stand it any more.

It seems as if he'll dump her when he's done punishing her for tricking him into therapy. Works for me.
25
@23: people who are easily chafed, people who are easily bored, and people who don't have several hours free to fuck in.

There are a lot of reasons why people might like to have sex differently than you do.
26
Wow. Lots of hating on the chick in the first letter. She really doesn't give a ton of details here; they could have just started going out when she cheated, or they could have been together for years or more. Plus, people are saying, "Well, he's mad because she put him at risk for STDs." but we don't know whether they were having safe sex or not, or whether she had safe sex with the other guy. We just don't know.

Also, although most people are accustomed to the lifelong therapy style, good therapy moves along pretty quickly and the therapist gets to the point promptly. 6 months is plenty of therapy; I'm not surprised if they've moved beyond the original reason for coming in.

And couples therapy is never about just one person(I'm looking at you here, @6!) and any therapist that is truly taking one person's side(as opposed to calling the other person on their bullshit) is ripe for complaint to their partners and their licensing agency, because that's the #1 no-no for therapists, and it is a serious transgression. Therapist guru says, "With great privilege comes great responsibility; do not increase the fuckedupedness of an already fucked up situation."

Not to mention that his control issues could be pertinent to the cheating; for example, now that he doesn't trust her, he might call her all the time to check up on her, or throw a fit if she goes out without him, or act like a controlling jerk generally. That would be something to address. But we also don't know that. All we know for sure is that she cheated, and that her boyfriend is being insanely passive-aggressive now and blaming it on Dan.

Anyway, to sum, could we stop the hating on therapy in general? It's not a contest to see who the therapist likes better, and the therapist is not calling a winner!
27
26/startfireming claims that "All we know for sure is that she cheated, and that her boyfriend is being insanely passive-aggressive now and blaming it on Dan."

No, only the first of your three knowns is there in the letter. There's no evidence in the letter that he's being passive aggressive or blaming Dan. She's blaming Dan for coming between her boyfriend and his therapist. The BF is doing things in the open with her by telling her outright what he thinks when he finds things he agrees with in Savage Love. He's not even lying to his therapist. As she states: he goes to therapy and then a day later he does some more thinking and research about the session using Savage Love as one source of study; then he comes to different conclusions than he reached earlier when it was just the therapist and girlfriend giving feedback. That's not passive-aggressive behavior on his part. That's him taking what came up in the therapy session and actually thinking about it further. That, having been in couple therapy myself, is a good thing. Its quite apart from just telling the partner or therapist what he thinks they want to hear just to get the fuck out off the therapy couch.

She's just unhappy that he has another source for understanding their relationship apart from the couples therapists. She's unhappy that her boyfriend doesn't stick strictly with only the therapist's advice. She's unhappy that her boyfriend isn't being controlled by the therapist in a manner she of which approves. Its all about control for her. Notice that her assessment of therapy is about how responsive her BF is and how he's working on things, but that she never mentions how its changing her?
28
You all want a perfect example of passive aggressive from YNGC? How about writing to Dan Savage about her boyfriend's use of Dan Savage to defend himself when she knows that he reads Dan Savage? That's some passive aggressive bullshit right there.

/therapy, the most expensive way to break up.
29
@ 20 - She never said she had unsafe sex during the affair, so why do you presume she did? Because YOU would?
30
@26: It sounds like the LW liked what she was hearing from the therapist (i.e., it's about his control issues) and is trying to use that to manipulate/guilt trip the BF out of listening to or thinking about contrary views. She's trying to gaslight the BF, and wants Dan to back up her play. And as @28 notes, knowing that the BF is a Savage Love reader, this is pretty goddamn passive-aggressive.
Your decription of how therapy is SUPPOSED TO work is usually correct, but I didn't hear anything about how the therapy has forced her to confront her own dishonesty, or admit that it's her job to earn back the BF's trust. Sometimes the thereapist ends up siding with one partner simply because he/she is more fluent and comfortable using the language of therapy, and therefore is more sympathetic because he/she "gets it."
31
Dear Sir,

The recent revelation that you are a different man than the one elected to Congress is of no small consequence.  Your "born again" revisitation of your "morals" is disgusting in the fact that you have betrayed your people in the name of "self-realization."  A charlatan you are and I hope your god despises your two-faced nature.  No God of mine would smile upon one so easy to lie to and abandon those who placed their trust in his seemingly worthy hands.  Shame on you and your house. 

Distrustfully Yours,
Joe
32
@14, oh, I agree that PE exists. But a lot of men who worry about PE are able to have PIV sex for a few minutes, which, in my book, is no longer PE, but just insecurity.

@23/25: I'm with Melony. When you're having sex several times a week, it can't all be "sheet-tearing crazy monkey sex that goes on forever."

Also, even though JrzWrld's ex-boyfriend chooses to blame it on his wife, the fact that he is (a) older, and (b) probably has more responsibilities now, both also lead to him wanting to spend less time on sex. Did you persuade him to slow down and smell the roses again, JrzWrld?

33
Bla bla shes a slut and hes a moper
34
Arora is MY delegate and I've already written a VERY strongly worded letter. It took a few rounds of editing to get out all the profanity, though. Bullshit bait and switch pigfucker.

And as for the 27 year old gay cuckold -- wow, your boyfriend did a real number on you! "Oh, I'd never cheat -- YOU'RE the immature one." Liar. DTMFA.
35
That chic from the first letter is a whore slut bitch
36
...because he maybekindasorta perceives these sessions to be a joint effort [on the part of you and your therapist] to shift the blame for your affair onto his shoulders ... If you're not working on your own issues—if your therapist doesn't think you have any issues—then I don't blame your boyfriend for not taking your therapist or these sessions seriously.


This, a thousand times. When I did divorce law I got so fucking sick of therapists who wanted to fix not the party with the problem but the party who wasn't as good at therapy. The erring party got a get-out-of-responsibility-free card from the therapist because they played the therapy game in a way that made the therapist most comfortable and happy.

And, given that the first words out of YNGC's mouth on the therapy was how they were working on his issues I'm rather inclined to think that Dan's suspicion is very spot-on.
37
First off,

WTF "Reverend" Grant Storms! Its always folks like that who drive the point all the way home, perpetuating this whole shameless cluelessness about exploring and celebrating sexuality in a "positive way." Oh. I guess we call that "fear." That whole thing makes me laugh a little bit, considering it just literally invalidates all his repressed ideas of antisexuality and Southern Decadence being something to picket about. Hah. Now he can picket about not being a chimo.

Right back at you #25.

@23 Everyone is entitled to be random as they want, as nasty or kennyg as they wanna be. Like a rabbit, or a monkey or even a a fantasy blob of plasma. Thats what makes things interesting, like rubix cube style with every partner. I always find that accepting sexual diversity is incredibly important to not only exploring your own, but maintaining a healthy attitude towards sex in general.

That being said, EBTS, girl, PE can lead to ED, which and can be entirely a mental block that can truly mess with the flow of a budding sexual relationship. Remain positive, and continue to be supportive to dude, as well as yourself. Maybe take turns being pampered, until you both figure out what permutation will be beneficial to both parties. Have lots of conversations about whats erotic to you independently, to get inside his head a bit more. Then incorporate it. Maybe the best time to talk about whats erotic is right after performing various sexual acts. Reflection, for example. Be encouraging and honest.
38
@32, I would have tried if I'd have decided to stick with him. We drifted apart rather amiably for other reasons (the same reasons that broke us up originally).

But my point was, previous lovers can leave residue. It takes a while to adapt sometimes. An explicit discussion about issues, hopes and expectations is probably in order for the LW and her bf.
39
Here is hoping the boyfriend of letterwriter No. 1 will know of her letter and read this thread. (She sure won't show him *now on her own!)

Dude, dump that CPOS. Seriously. Therapy? For for girlfriend of a few years? Who failed to mention for a few years that she liked getting dick on the side, while you presumably remained monogamous?

I am sure hoping you are getting all kinds of poon on the side and laughing at this whole "fix the relationship" narcissism your girlfriend is focused on. In short, I hope you are "gaslighting" her while she and this therapist are trying to gaslight you.
40
ooo correction:

"have lots of conversations about whats erotic to you independently [From eachother] to get inside [eachother's] head more."

oops. sorry lots of advice but not enough articulation there.
41
Canuck (hi!) @10:
From what I've heard and read, many therapists tend to be pretty female-oriented, men don't often come out of sessions as the happy party.
Agreed. I've seen it with male and female therapists both. Truth be told from what I've seen (YMMV) most therapists [outside BS patriarchal religious counseling] see the man as a problem to be solved rather than having any valid positions that need be truly considered (rather than just listened to).

And FWIW there was a great Savage Love blog thread on this very topic some months ago:
http://tinyurl.com/4qnrlbs
42
I have zero doubt that I would be pulling all kinds of passive-aggressive bullshit outside therapy, because the therapy itself was was a victim-blaming whitewash, with the official seal of approval of a licensed professional.

AHahahahaha...BINGO! BTDT! I allowed myself to become enmeshed with a borderline, and the gas-lighting I got was a nightmare. She snowed the therapist (he had an even bigger white knight complex than I did) in very very short order (like, um two sessions) and suddenly I was the party who was expected to be making all the changes. Thank $DEITY I had some self-confidence and working memory of not-so-crazy relationships and I punted both of them.

This is a very clear case of DTMFA - for both of them. They will be Immensely happier - immediately - I know I was and I have had healthy relationships since then.

Not to be harsh on YNGC, but even if her BF is an insecure, manipulative and controlling nutjob (ie, does need to take responsibility and change his ways), having an affair is well beyond whacking the wasps' nest with a big stick (was the affair purportedly somehow the result of his controlling behavior?). How does the line go? Oh, right, "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you." This is the very deepest fear of insecure people and she's now validated that fear in a concrete way.

She should never have admitted the affair, and if her conscience wouldn't permit that, then she should have just broken up with him. Not all problems can be "fixed" and not all people - no matter how 'in love' (and why oh why else persist for this length of time?) they are - are good or right for each other.

I want to ask: if he (BF) is so controlling that his behavior in some way drove her to an affair, why on earth is she still wasting time with him? Dump him and go have sex with someone who isn't making you nutso! Of course, I suspect BF didn't drive YNGC to the affair, rather she has a wandering eye and in the masochistic way insecure people are, he was drawn to her partly because of it...then she went and validated it.

I'm biased I'm sure - I have two major failed LTRs on my report card - but honestly, if you aren't married and don't have kids, and you already need therapy...just let it go and save everybody the hassle. Go see a therapist on your own if you think you want to work on some personal growth based on experiences and lessons learned in this relationship.
43
JrzWrld @ 38:
...previous lovers can leave residue...
Heh. True, that:
Type One Issue: That component of a your character that is screwed up due to a previous relationship.
Type Two Issue: That component of a your character which will be screwed up due to your current relationship.
Type Three Issue: What your current boyfriend or girlfriend has when your Type One Issue gets in the way of their attempts to give you a Type Two Issue.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph…
44
Great column this week. Funny and spot on.
45
to Everything But The Sex,
I had a similar problem to your boyfriend, and maybe I can offer some advice from my experience. It takes a little effort on your part, but it will be worth it in the end.

When I was having problems as a preemie, I did this. I had sex with my girlfriend exactly the same way I normally would, deep thrusting, lots of grabbing and sqeezing, eye contact, everything that would normally make good sex except for one thing, I went really really slow. Every time I was about to cum, I stopped, waited for the feeling to go away, then I started going slow again. It frustrated my girlfriend to no end, but I only had to do it once, and I never had the problem again. I have married the same girl, and we regularly have hour long sessions.

Part of the reason I think my method worked is that it made me feel in control of my dick. When you preemie, you don't feel like you are in control of yourself. The slow-go method allowed me to feel more in control, upped my confidence, which gave me more control, etc.

I hope it works for him as well.
46
@43, please don't depress me - I'm just re-entering the dating scene!

:)
47
Couldn't agree more with Dan on the first letter. My instinct also said she was trying to pass the buck to her boyfriend for her affair. If he was controlling or a jerk, that doesn't justify an affair (especially if you're not married or don't have kids). He's doing something that's making you unhappy? The solution is simple -- leave, break up with him. It was the gf's CHOICE to react to a shitty/unhappy situation by cheating. That's 100% on her and says loads about her character.

There are always difficult situations in life that make us unhappy, but that doesn't give us carte blanche to run over others, especially those we supposedly love. You always have a choice in how you CHOOSE to react -- you chose cheating, and I think that makes you a shitty partner.

And for the record, though I fully understand the health concerns about being exposed to an STD, I think the pain of cheating is rarely about that but more about being betrayed by someone you trusted and loved. Outside of the worst STDS (i.e. HIV), the betrayal cuts deeper and will have longer effects on a person that values honesty and loyalty than any STD.
48
Come now, don't bag so much on therapists. They're people too, and there are as many screwed up therapists as there are doctors, lawyers, judges, etc. You wouldn't stay with a shitty doctor, so don't stay with a shitty therapist. And by all means, complain, yelp them, whatever.

I wonder, are men tending to get the short end of the stick in therapy because they can't communicate within it or because they won't? And what would be a way to level the playing field? It doesn't seem fair to make men do all the changing as far as how to talk, but since it's "talk" therapy...
49
Come now, don't bag so much on therapists. They're people too, and there are as many screwed up therapists as there are doctors, lawyers, judges, etc. You wouldn't stay with a shitty doctor, so don't stay with a shitty therapist. And by all means, complain, yelp them, whatever.

I wonder, are men tending to get the short end of the stick in therapy because they can't communicate within it or because they won't? And what would be a way to level the playing field? It doesn't seem fair to make men do all the changing as far as how to talk, but since it's "talk" therapy...
50
secret agent @48/49:

It's been my experience that there's way more bad marital therapists than good ones, period. I've seen bad lawyers, judges, etc., but the next one is very often very much better. With marital counsellors they seem to be along a sliding scale of fucking useless.

Don't forget, too, that many guys (myself included) who have used 'em get very wary very fast of frank communication because whatever we say ends up flying right back at our heads, either from the partner (without restraint from the therapist) or, worse, from the therapist. After a while you just stop forging a rod for your own back by just shutting up.
51
Weird. I didn't italicize anything in my previous post. Or this one, for that matter.
52


Fixed it.
53
Well, I thought I fixed it. Maybe not.
54
@38, agreed. I was just taking issue with the idea that hours-long sex is necessarily better for both parties than short-but-sweet sex.
55
I'm thinking YNGC's boyfriend isn't the only one with control issues...
56
To EBTS: You mentioned doggie style....maybe try being on top? I bet Dan is right about the whole preemie bit, and sometimes, if the woman has control, he will last longer, and then you can take his hands and put them on your body.
57

I third Melony and EricaP: not all women want to be pounded for hours at a time.

Penetration turns me on and makes me feel close to my partner, but it doesn't make me orgasm or even bring me close to one (I'm not a g-spot intensive sorta gal). Plus my bf is on the larger side - I would almost say too large for my preternaturally tight vagina - so thrusting gets irritating pretty fast. My favourite part of P-in-V sex is, in fact, watching/feeling my bf come.

So most days, I'd consider lots of foreplay and then 5-10 minutes of sex absolutely ideal. But most guys I've been with are super-paranoid and feel like they're failures if they take less than an hour.

(Meanwhile, I find myself bragging to dudes about how fast I orgasm, since guys seem to hate it when women take a while to get off. Irony!)
58
I agree with cvilletop, no matter what you will loose your house, dogs etc, get out of a relationship if you cannot trust the other person. there is no point in holding on all it will do will leave you crazy angry and bitter, and it will take you longer to recover, than to say I'm out of here.
59
@57 - it's not really irony... It's really the same:

You like it when the guy orgasms with 5-10 minutes of intercourse, because the action isn't moving you towards orgasm.

Similarly, a guy likes it when a girl comes with 5-10 minutes of him stimulating her clit, because the action isn't moving him towards orgasm.
60
I'm sorry but if you're in couples counselling with someone who is a BOYFRIEND for MONTHS over what appears to be a one time incident THREE YEARS AGO it's time to DTMFA. Seriously. There's a reason y'all aren't married. Enjoy it.
61
EricaP: put that way, it makes sense. But it's still funny. Guys are all "Hey, baby! I take an hour to come!" and I'm all "Hey, baby! I go off in two minutes!"

I hate that P-in-V is such a huuuuuge part of sex...to the point where most people call P-in-V "sex" and consider all other sex acts to be...I dunno, in a different class, or something.

I do understand that some chicks love the feeling of penetration, and even get off on it. But if a guy can't go for hours on end, there's still fingers and fists and toys...how did the penis become the be-all and end-all? I'm so very glad I'm not a guy...the performance pressure would kill me. Plus it'd piss me off to have other people bossing me around, telling me when to orgasm.
62
It never ceases to amaze me how many of Dan's readers are of the mind that "the cheater is 100% completely and totally at fault and the cheatee is an absolute complete and total saint who should have their name listed next to Jesus and Ghandi."

A good way to get someone in an affair to walk right the hell out of therapy is to walk in and blame it ALL on them and treat the betrayed spouse as though they poop roses. There is no such thing as a cheating spouse who is happy in their relationship. And they're so pissed they're willing to go fuck someone else and no longer give a shit what their spouse thinks. An affair is a SYMPTOM of marital problems, not a cause.

And anyway, why the fuck would she talk about HER cheating in her letter to DAN when the letter is about HER BOYFRIEND being a twat and using Dan to bolster his control issues?
63
@ 62: There's a reason they're usually called "Cheating Pieces of Shit". True, there's often something else wrong in the relationship (though not always), but if so they have a responsibility to speak up and do something about it. Lying to their partner instead of addressing the real issue is what makes someone a CPOS: it's cowardly.

We don't know the circumstances around the original LW's slip-up - it's possible they'd only been dating a short while and there were extenuating circumstances - but since she doesn't elaborate *at all*, the inevitable impression is that she doesn't feel any remorse. Instead the letter's all about how her boyfriend is at fault, which is what most people are reacting to. And as #28 pointed out, writing the letter to Dan is a pretty shit move on her part, given who's likely to read it.
64
@62 - Actually, I think they're very likely quite well matched. They'd likely inflict a much wider range of misery on people who might not deserve it if they parted.

Now, if we later learn that he constantly badgered her about infidelity for two years until she finally admitted her indiscretion, I shall revise my opinion of her upwards and of him downwards. But it seems unlikely that she'd be so reticient about a point so clearly in her favour. And the way the letter reads seems to fit with the take that the revelation was her ace in the hole to get him into therapy.
65
Wendykh---I hate your take on cheating. Yeah, no one is every 100% innocent or not at fault in a relationship, but cheating is a very specific, shitty, cowardly way to react to problems in a relationship. Absent extremely extenuating circumstances (and there are some situations where this is the deal), it's generally a cowardly, selfish way to react to a problem.

You've got a problem? You address. Speak up, tell your partner why you're unhappy and what needs to be fixed. If he/she doesn't fix it or doesn't want to, then break-up. Where is betrayal ever an acceptable solution? It's not. It's really just shitty ass people with very little honor looking for a way to justify their bad behavior.

I have never cheated on a partner and never will. Not because it would hurt him (though that's a powerful motivator in itself), but because it would make me a shitty person -- a cowardly, selfish person. I think more of myself than that and would never stoop to acting with so little honor. Those with honor don't have your attitude.
66
@51, 52, 53: The italics problem seems to happen randomly on Slog; it's happened in a few previous threads.

@32, 57: It is not necessarily insecurity, paranoia, or feeling like a failure when a guy would like to have PIV sex for longer. It feels really good, so a lot of guys want it to last longer so they can have better sex. Why shouldn't it last a long time? And if the woman is feeling chafed you can always take breaks or apply lube.
67
Wendykh/62 -- and sometimes cheating isn't a symptom of a problem with the relationship, sometimes it's an issue wholly having to do with the cheater. They have low self-esteem, some fear of vulnerability, self-sabotaging tendencies or could just be a selfish prick.

So sometimes it can indicate relationship problems, but sometimes it can also be wholly an issue with the cheater. Regardless, it definitely tells you about the cheater's take on conflict resolution skills -- he/she cheat instead of dealing with the problem and lack some major integrity and character if they think that is an acceptable way to indicate problems in a relationship (as opposed to a moment of weakness where they fuck up and realize it was a HUGE mistake).
68
Let me just guess that if the man had cheated all these babes would be quicker to convict the cheater rather than defending him! I can just hear the banshee howlings if the situation were reversed. When a WOMAN is cheated on it is a horrible betrayal that takes years to get over. When a MAN is cheated on it is because he is a controlling asshole. Got it. I just wanted to be sure though.

CLEARLY any objective reading of the first letter can be summarized as: I cheated on him and then waited for years to bash him in the face with the information. Now we are in therapy to work on HIS issues.

Marriage counselors almost always favor the woman- like the court system, the police, the social welfare bureaucracy, the corrections system, and almost every other social institution in America today. In actual therapy the woman almost always is more communicative and so the therapist immediately takes her side. Like the lady said- they don't call it talking therapy for nothing.
69
@66, if a guy wants PIV sex to go on longer than his body can, and longer than his partner wants... then maybe he should reevaluate what he wants. Try doing it again a few hours later, rather than trying to keep penetration going for an hour.

I said this on a different thread, but I'll say it again: guys, take out your dick after 15 minutes and do something else. If she doesn't beg you to put it back inside, then she didn't want it there. There. Figure out something you both want. Now you've taken one step closer to having enthusiastic sex, rather than bad sex.

70
Sex is pretty fucking goo.
71
@69: It's appropriate that your post is #69. :)

If your point is that a guy should compromise and communicate with his partner if he wants intercourse for a long time and she doesn't, then I agree.

But... well, I like lengthy PIV. If a guy wants to go longer because he likes it, and his partner is fine with that, I don't see why he shouldn't. It's not necessarily bad sex, even if not everyone loves it.

And teasing by pulling your cock out every so often is always a good idea (though some women will assume you pulled it out cause you didn't want to keep going and won't want to pressure you by begging).
72
Hey, "Everything but the Sex",

A couple things Dan may not have considered: First, what is your birth control situation? When I'm using condoms or other, less advisable methods (pull-out) I can't get out of my head either.

Also, you mentioned he is well endowed. As a fellow well endowed male, I often worry about causing pain or discomfort to my partners, at least until I learn their threshold for vigorous fucking.
73
@71, I understand you like lengthy PIV. I just think you should recognize that many women don't like lengthy PIV. Just as many women don't like having their throats choked with cock.

The fact that a woman puts up with lengthy PIV doesn't mean she's enjoying it. All I'm asking you (and other fans of lengthy PIV sessions) to do is look for signs that she may not be all that into it anymore. If she doesn't ask you to put it back in, you might ask out loud, "hey, you up for some more or would you like X instead?" Remember that women are socialized to put up with a lot of stuff they don't like. If you don't want lengthy PIV sex with you to be in that category, make sure she's still enthusiastic fifteen minutes in.
74
Hey, "Everything but the Sex",

A couple things Dan may not have considered: First, what is your birth control situation? When I'm using condoms or other, less advisable methods (pull-out) I can't get out of my head either.

Also, you mentioned he is well endowed. As a fellow well endowed male, I often worry about causing pain or discomfort to my partners, at least until I learn their threshold for vigorous fucking.
75
FWIW, Dan, Sam Arora has since declared his intentions to vote for the Marriage Equality bill. He's still a tremendous sack of douche, and I hope he gets primaried in 2014, but at least we convinced him to vote properly this time.

Still a huge sack of shit though.
76
@73: Fair enough, I'll recognize that there are many women who don't like it, if you recognize that there are many women who do like it, or are willing to do it in return for their partner pleasing them in some other way. (Hey, eating a girl out for a long time sometimes hurts my jaw but I'll do it to make her feel good.)

Since there are such people, it does make sense for men to try to last longer if they're interested. (I say this because you seemed to be very against the idea of guys trying to last longer.)
77
'Help My Disappointed Heart' has been in an abusive relationship for over three years and now finds out he has been made a fool off for all that time.
OUCH. This is a lot to chew on.

Never forget that your the victim here, HMDH. And be gentle with yourself.
78
@69 I said this on a different thread, but I'll say it again: guys, take out your dick after 15 minutes and do something else. If she doesn't beg you to put it back inside, then she didn't want it there.

Along the lines of "previous lovers can leave a residue", I was in a monogamous relationship for ~17 years with a woman who really had a very very difficult time achieving orgasm such that the need to be able to go and go for at least a half an hour became the norm. I was fortunate that one of my later lovers was willing to speak up and tell me to hurry up - it was a huge relief to be let off the super-performance hook. Looking back after that I realized several had not been so forthcoming and probably weren't happy about being raw (and I am neither superman nor super-endowed).
79
Wendykh's view of cheating on S/O in a monogamous relationship--maybe it is the fault, at least somewhat, of the other party--kinda reminds me of employees who embezzle from their bosses.

Yeah, sometimes the boss is a nasty piece of work who cheated the employees out of raises, bonuses, etc., and in a perfect world the employee is entitled to take some of the boss' money in compensation. The trouble is *every* employee stealing uses that justification, because in a few cases, it may be true.

Put another way, you never meet a guilty man in prison--they were all unjustly convicted.
80
@76 interesting comparison to oral sex. What would you think of a girl who held off from orgasm while you were going down on her, so that her pleasure would last longer? Once you had a sore jaw, wouldn't you kinda want her to allow herself to orgasm, rather than pressure you to keep going until she has had an hour of pleasure + an orgasm? If you can get off, and if your partner is no longer enjoying the act, then have your orgasm already.
81
Following up on my own remark: I'm trying to imagine a world where women take medication in order to be able to enjoy more oral sex from their partners before they orgasm. This cracks me up.

No, in our crappy bad-sex world, women are urged to come as quickly as possible (see @61) so it's not such a drag for their partners; men encourage each other to last as long as possible, because who gives a shit if the woman is no longer enjoying it.

82
Note, though, that I am not talking about situations like the one @78, where a woman wants and needs her man to last half-an-hour before she could come from PIV. If you think your woman is on the road to a PIV orgasm, by all means, continue merrily fucking. (That's why I stress checking in with her, to see if the fucking is working for her body.)

But if you're just delaying your jollies for your own pleasure, and she's no longer getting physical pleasure out of it, then -- shit or get off the pot.
83
@79 Not picking on you particularly, but using your statement as a jumping off point regarding the CPOS meme:

Wendykh's view of cheating on S/O in a monogamous relationship--maybe it is the fault, at least somewhat, of the other party--kinda reminds me of employees who embezzle from their bosses.

Something about your analogy bothered me, so I extended it a bit and I realized that it rests on the premise that somehow it's as simple as just saying, "ok, I quit" and going down there street where there is the implicit expectation of another job with a non-exploitive or non-abusive employer. Of course, the real world doesn't work like that...and you know what? It doesn't work like that in relationships all the time either.

LW1 is lame only for cheating only insofar as it appears that this is a not-very-committed relationship. Who knows? Maybe they've been together for over a decade and share a mortgage and spawn and never got married for whatever reason. It's entirely possible he's subjected her to neglect for years after successfully tying her down with mortgage and spawn.

I dunno, I am much more sympathetic to people who embezzle after being rooked into selling their souls to the company store.

@58 You know, it's funny you mention that, but I did manage to keep the house and the dogs...the house was pretty much empty, but that didn't bother me a bit...I was just so happy to see the dogs sitting on the porch waiting for me.
84
Cvilletop -- I sort of hear where you're coming from, but where does betrayal become an acceptable solution? It seems that your advocating a two wrongs make a right sort of philosophy and that seems very dangerous. You think someone owes you something, you steal it? Rarely is something like that okay to do. You don't like how someone is treating you, then deal with it. But to say that you can be vindictive and horrible back just falls flat.

You can hit someone back to defend yourself, but not out of a revenge or an evening up of the score. I just rarely think cheating is ever going to be used in self-defense. It's almost always vindictive or passive-aggressive and cowardly. If you really were wronged, then you're now just as bad as the person you're complaining about then.
85
@81

"No, in our crappy bad-sex world, women are urged to come as quickly as possible (see @61) so it's not such a drag for their partners; men encourage each other to last as long as possible, because who gives a shit if the woman is no longer enjoying it."

Crappy bad-sex world? I'm glad I don't live there. Also, my impression is that men do not try to last as long as possible for their own enjoyment, quite the contrary. My perception has always been that men try to last longer so that women will think they're rock stars and the greatest fucks in the world. Your average guy probably tries to last longer because that's what HE thinks is necessary to be a good lover. This is my impression of the matter, and my experience backs that up. Men are not all so selfish as you make them sound, and their partner's pleasure is a huge priority.
86
I can echo those comments. I really psyched myself out as a teen that girls wanted super-long endurance and wouldn't accept anything less. End result was I basically couldn't cum from anything ever (masturbation was also probably a factor), but I was screwed up so tight that I was in my 20s before I hand any sort of (my) hands free orgasm. The sex itself was fun, but the total lack of climax in my part often made things pretty miserable for both the girl and me.

I'm better off now. Can hold it back long enough to keep people happy. And if I can't? That's what fingers and tongues and toes are for.
87
@84 No, I pretty much agree with you - two wrongs do not make a right, and I was very critical originally of YNGC for that reason. There's no doubt that the right answer is disentangling and 'doing it right' - I'm only suggesting it's not black and white.

I know of two or three "CPOS" who are still married to their original spouse, and for quite good reasons have been forced to go outside the marriage for companionship (as others have said, it's usually NOT sex that's the original problem - it's either the cheater's self-esteem or conflicts in the relationship), and yet had very good reasons for not ending the marriage. A couple are still married and happily. Illness is just one of the things that can lead to this (and not just physical illness)...for better or worse can take interesting turns.
88
@87 -- I hear ya. I often think the exceptions to the no-cheating rule are exactly the examples you give, and often what Dan says as well. They're not CPOS -- some extenuating circumstances excuse the behavior (reminds me of the son that wrote in about his mother a while back cheating on his father but freely admitting his father was a horrible person and his mom was only staying in the marriage for her sons' sake until they left for college and had a lover on the side).

That being said it also seems that far too many people want to consider themselves one of these extreme exceptions. Just being unhappy with your partner is not a good enough reason. There has to be a very legit reason why you can't deal with that problem directly (battered spouse, illness issues, etc.). The LW specifically does not sound like any sort of exception -- she just sounds like the general selfish, cowardly cheater who then wants to blame her betrayed spouse for her poor choices.
89
I personally prefer your defending J. Michael Bailey. I couldn't believe what I was hearing when I heard that the parents of UNIVERSITY STUDENTS were objecting to subject matter in a course their ADULT CHILDREN enrolled in. I don't care if their parents ARE bankrolling their education, it's expected that that will eventually be paid back by the student once (s)he graduates and gets out into the work force, and that's neglecting the fact these students are at the age of majority and perfectly free to purchase all the pornography they desire. What Prof. Bailey was trying to do in the classroom was further the discussion and lessons by using visual aids, i.e. two people who signed up to do this, were both clear-thinking adults who weren't manipulated into engaging in intimacy in front of these students, and who were doing so in a way that highlighted portions of discussions that had already taken place in the classroom.

This is helicopter parenting taken to its furthest extreme. Mommy and Daddy need to cut the apron strings and realize that once their children are old enough to be students at a university and are now getting an education to help prepare themselves for fiscal independence, they're old enough to watch two people having sex, either on a video or DVD, pay per view order, online streaming video, or in a human sexuality classroom. It's not like two random students in a nuclear physics class decided to screw each other on the professor's desk and everyone just watched them going at it. What was to happen in that class was EXPECTED to happen in that class.

Anyway. That's my, oh, roughly $0.50's worth. Is there some way to show support to Prof. Bailey so he won't get into a shitload of trouble with his employer?
90
I have a question...my bf and i love the savage love columns read em every week with pleasure. the stuff about manogamy though makes me uncomfortable and I have thought and thought about why and how I can change. According to the savage love advice all men are programmed to cheat and so we should all have open relationships, that it is in fact the male natural way. My bf and I do everything from fetish and dungeon to toys and on and on the only thing we don't do is other people. He's never asked for an open relationship but I feel like I'm living in dinial or something and want to be honest about us and the world. The problem is I get turned off when I know a guy has been with someone else while with me. i lose atrraction. In fact this is how I get over a guy I just sleep with someone else or encourage him to, then I don't want him anymore..not even a little. i think this may be the female natural way...often its women who desire the one mate thing while guys are saposed to spread their seed. My question is this: why is it women who have to change who they are why are we to go with the guys natural tendancies rather than our own? Why must one lose and one win. What is the win win.

signed Seeking Win Win.
91
@11:

Yes, they usually do complain when vaginal sex lasts seconds, rather than minutes. Most men who suffer from premature ejaculation suffer from *really* premature ejaculation.

@89:

The short version would be "You're getting what you're *paying* for. How can one properly study human sexuality without test subjects?"

Although what I've heard about the extracurricular bonus study was that there was little educational or research value to it. One student commented "So they got off. Yes? And? What was the point?"
92
YNGC - You're BF should dump your ass, but seeing as how he didn't as is now doing the 'therapy-go-round', you're both in for a passive-aggressive showdown.
EBTS- You're probably too fat. Get a bike or go to the gym.
HMDH - Stop being a pussy and dump him.
95
My husband has some PE issues. I actually like it though because I like thinking "I'm so hot, he can't hold it back". My orgasms are better when I see him lose that control.

However, he does something very similar to EBTS and zones out during sex. It annoys the fuck out of me. Well, sometimes it's cool if I need a bit longer to get off, but usually it's just annoying having a dead fish under me. I combat it by putting his hands on my ass, or even better, by talking dirty to him which works 99% of the time. I wish he'd not worry so much about holding back. Hmmm... I know what I'm gonna try tonight... ;)
97
The Times-Picayune reported his address as 2304 Green Acres Road in Metairie (LA 70003-2012, looked up the zip code for everyone). I think we all should send him a post card and let him know how we feel about his pedophilic peter wacking. How can anyone be surprised that another Repugnant family values guy is just a closeted pervert doing much more harm than good. Further proof that religion is the root of all evil in the world.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2011…
98
The Times-Picayune reported his address as 2304 Green Acres Road in Metairie (LA 70003-2012, looked up the zip code for everyone). I think we all should send him a post card and let him know how we feel about his pedophilic peter whacking. How can anyone be surprised that another Repugnant family values guy is just a closeted pervert doing much more harm than good. Further proof that religion is the root of all evil in the world.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2011…
99
That's the reverend grant storm, sorry for not including the subject of my rant.
100
Hunter78 -- Non-monogamy may be natural, but that doesn't mean that betrayal/cheating is the same thing. If you're going down that path, it's a slippery slope.

If you're going to use nature as the basis for the legitimacy of our actions, then killing the young of your mate's previous relationship would be acceptable, so would stealing, rape and whatever you could take by force and get away with. All things generally frowned upon by most civilized peoples. Not a very persuasive argument.
101
@94

I don't think Dan "cheats" on Terry; they have an open relationship that follows strict rules, which is not the same thing at all as deceiving your partner. That's why he makes a point of drawing a distinction between cheating and non-monogamy.
102
Chicago girl @85, I'm glad you live in Awesome Good Sex world. Me too, for the most part. But I was corresponding with BlackRose (whom I respect and with whom I often agree)... and he was saying that if he liked an hour of PIV sex, then it was okay if his partner wasn't enjoying herself for the last half-hour. I wondered if he would give oral sex for half an hour after his jaw became sore.

Guys may say they want to last an hour to be a great lover for their women... but if the women don't want more than 15 minutes, then the guys are doing it for ego, or for their own pleasure. Ya can't say it's for me if it's not what I want.
103
@22 My sympathies. The first thing that goes with a cheater is their credibility (i.e. they are a cheater and if you believe anything they say or promise, you do so at your own peril) followed by trust once the affair is discovered/acknowledged. It is pointless to try to repair the relationship unless the cheater can reestablish their credibility. The first step towards that is ending the affair and there really is only one way to prove/ensure that the affair is ended. Once the cheater has begun to reestablish their credibility they can work to restore the trust that they have shattered. I’m not saying that anything has to be completed before you can move on to the next step in restoring a relationship, but there are certain things that have to be there in any healthy relationship (among them honesty, trust, communication) Once a degree of credibility and trust has been reestablished you can begin to work on the underlying causes of the affair and/or problems in the relationships and/or the personal problems/issues of the cheater and/or your own personal problems/issues. All the while you are dealing with the emotional fallout caused by the affair.
104
@102: Thanks for the sweet comments! You're awesome too. ((hugs))

That wasn't my original point, which was to say that there are men who want to last longer because they and their partners enjoyed it, or they enjoyed it and their partners were willing to participate in exchange for being pleasured in other ways. I know you don't like lengthy PIV, but there are women (and men) who genuinely do, and aren't just saying that, and would be disappointed by short PIV even if they do come. It's not always just about coming. I don't really understand why lube isn't a workaround though, for women who get dry and chafe after a bit.

I didn't say "it's ok if my partner isn't enjoying herself for the last half-hour," and I wouldn't expect her to be in pain for me. I would want her to have PIV for as long as she felt comfortable, and I would certainly return the favor by eating pussy for as long as I could and she wanted me to. I'm not saying she should have bad sex for my sake, just that partners sometimes compromise by alternately pleasing each other in various ways.

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