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That seems like the worst time to me. Wait until they're calm and relaxed, and not actively reacting to whatever it is in a negative way.
So hey, she might be freaked out now but it's likely that once the baby comes out and the milk starts flowing, she may change her mind and realize it could be more fun than gross (and it could occasionally be helpful).
I've always gotten the impression that breast milk was a little gross but it's actually really not. at all. but as a first time mom, it's a little uncomfortable in the beginning. she just needs time to adjust and she'll be fine. I was. :o)
My husband never showed any interest in my breastmilk... but one day when we were fooling around, he got sprayed. And he enjoyed it. I was more than happy to oblige. But when you're nursing, sleep deprived, recovering from childbirth/a c-section, etc. it's hard to see your breasts or post-partum body as sexual.
So I agree with Dan to take it slow. By the way, the OB usually won't give you the OK to resume vaginal sex post-partum until after the 6 week check-up. Just be super-supportive and she may come around with sharing the milk!
As Dan said, he needs to shut the fuck up about the whole lactation gets me hard thing. She's not going to forget the squick, but after the baby comes and she's sleep deprived beyond measure, it will likely slip to the back of her conciousness. Once your back to fucking (post baby) and not the first time because god knows that time hurts about as much as giving birth, asssuming you can get her to take off the nursing bra even at night, focus on getting your wife off. Whatever gives her the best feel it down to the sole of her feet orgasm. She will likely spray like a fountain, if the orgasm is really good, she won't even realize it until after the fact.
With each of the 3 kids, orgasm made my milk let down. It was uncanny. My husband thought it was disgusting, so I would clutch a towel to my breasts when I climaxed.
Who knows how something this primal will play out in any relationship.
I did also eventually discover my husband's hidden porn stash- I have no problem with him having a stash, but... I found that his main fetish was lactating women. Not only did this gross me out, it pissed me off- because after that, every time he bitched and whined about having his sleep interrupted, or how the baby needed something and could I take care of the baby, or etc... all I could think about was the fact that he was getting off watching me, and I was doing all the work.
Post partum women are not to be messed with. They bring cranky and irrational to a new level, and that is just the way it is. MILK needs to keep his mouth shut about this issue. For years. He may get lucky, because, like the previous poster said, the same hormones that cause orgasm contractions, also cause milk to let down. He needs to feel thankful if that happens, and also feel thankful if all he ends up with is a wife and new mother.
A classic example was the letter from a woman who worried that her husband might be becoming more attached to his best friend than he was to her. Somewhere in the middle of all the Brokeback puns she could conjure, the Prudecutor's only piece of actual advice was to ambush the two of them by asking the friend to come see a film and then show you-know-what. Perhaps cute in fiction, but what a sign of a spiteful soul. Interestingly, to tie this together with the recent SLLotD, the Prudecutor and about half of the intelligent commenters revealed their adherence to the view of sexual orientation as a two-sided coin weighted to land on S rather more often than on G. The B word never came up until I mentioned it myself, only to be rather quickly shot down, much to my surprise.
"heterophobic" is my new favourite word.
For that matter, If Baby is having trouble early on, Mom may well need Dad to help out during the early days, lest she suffer painful engorgement, come down with impacted milk glands, or mastitis; or alternately, her milk supply goes down from lack of consumption. Pumping is NOT as good as human intervention in this respect, even adult human intervention. (However, be a little careful, because overproduction is what causes engorgement and if your activities are too enthusiastic, you get too much production, you have a negative feedback loop going.)
The simple answer is, just let it drop. If you have sex while she is lactating, provided it's reasonably good sex, you WILL get sprayed. (Unless she gets all irrational and tries to cover up to keep it from you -- which would be pretty shitty of her, since milk that goes into the nipple shields isn't going into the baby, it's just going to waste.) Relax, it'll happen.
@2 Why wouldn't that be a good time to mention it? If I was insecure about something, and I mentioned it to my partner, who replied with, "actually, that _____ really turns me on." I would be not only relieved, but overjoyed.
"Baby, umm.. I think my penis is too small and it's bent weird and I'm really insecure about it."
"Well actually I think small bent penises are really really hot and that just makes me want you even more!"
"What?! How dare you say such a thing when I'm trying to be insecure about myself?!"
I'm such a child at heart.
I call bullshit on the that's not what that is for' bullshit. What about buttholes? Semen toothpaste? Tampon string floss? Lots of fluid gets exchanged that is 'not what that is for.' Maybe read up on convincing a woman to have anal sex would help? Yeah, this is for her and the baby and it will feel great! Nothing to do with your fetish you know. Approach it by eating her until she almost cums and then moving to the chest for nipple play....
#9: Illness is no excuse for the practice of hateful vice and intolerable behavior. A pregnancy is much less so.
Dan's answer with the new mom's mantra is priceless. After spewing afterbirth all over your doctor, shitting the sheets, and plopping out a slime covered bowling ball, a little nipple squirt will not be "gross" but will seem like nothing more than spilled milk.
A resident of the island of lesbos taking two fags Greek style is almost something I would watch. I caught the lesbian drama height worry also. Two words: Telephone Book...
If you are so concerned maybe demand a movie of them humping the hershey highway before you dive into the chocolate so you know what they like?
Bi-curious/pan-curious/post-gender-curious fellow is lucky Dan is such an expert. He has always taught us that sexual attraction and orientation is all about what you imagine fucking in the context of a relationship. This disembodied penis fetish is nothing more than an affectation. He could be attracted to lactating nipples or something equally weird and it doesn't make him gay. Heterophobic is indeed the word at many universities!
Couldn't Ms. Shitdropper drop some, I don't know...like some warm melted fudge brownie or something and give him the tactile sensation. Hell, tie a pair of racing stripe underwear over his head and give him the whole show without even dropping load. Dan would have suggested something like this for almost any other fetish except this one which happens to gross him out.
Re IBS: me personally, I would love that scene, because of the penises and cute gay guys. But what excites her about it? She thinks it might help her get over her fear of penises. That doesn't seem likely. She does say she's intrigued. Maybe she should think about the scene for a month or so, fantasize about it, and figure out what makes her hot.
I used to not be able to pee in the shower, or take a dump when my husband was in the bathroom. Now I can do both. One step at a time is what makes you GGG.
I don't have personal experience with it, but my Ma was drunk one night, and told me about it for some reason. Apparently, when she was breast feeding me, sex with my dad tended to cause her to leak milk all over the place. Which, I guess, in this case, is the whole point? So maybe the issue will resolve itself.
Dan, if I had read your articles at 13 when I was just discovering the paraphilia that has caused me so much shame over the years. I probably would have killed myself. I am glad I am older, but I think you ought to rethink your "It gets better" campaign, some of these young people are dealing with things you clearly have contempt for.
So, let the baby nurse as often and as long as possible, and allow any auxiliary sucking that happens to come along.
MILK, you are about to enter a whole new universe of sexuality. Tolerate her autonomy over her own body and respect her temporary postpartum limitations. You will be rewarded for your efforts.
Then again, I'd have gotten laid a lot less. Creative-type females who like cock AND the men the cocks come with are the luckiest females in the world.
(Reposting after registering.)
This just sounds extremely depressing. Even moreso when you consider that they have a child intertwined in all this.
For more on this topic, visit http://fearlessformulafeeder.blogspot.co…
FWIW, I feel lucky that I've been able to at least PARTIALLY nurse my baby for the last six months.
Back on topic for the letter, I agree with the previous poster who said rather than focusing on what gets the Milkman off (namely, her lactation) he would be better able to achieve her ends by reframing the whole conversation on to her: the whole "wow you gorgeous earth mother, look at you carrying my baby" thing worked very well to get me in the mood the entire time I was pregnant, and, post-partum, once we were given the all clear for sex.
And, FWIW, nursing or pumping right after sex does work well in terms of let down.
D
I'm both relieved and a little let down. :(
Right on with this. It's great for people to think critically about gender and sexuality (in themselves and in the world at large), but it seems like so much of the college-y post-gender mindset is geared towards forming ideologically elitist cliques; or, a way for middle-class kids to mitigate their guilt and fear by convincing themselves that they're somehow on the margins of society; or, a way for people to convince themselves that having sex with their cute friends amounts to some sort of transformative social activism.
If it helps maybe you could be a little imaginative about the suggested use of the seitan. He is vague...
CSE:
The companion to not judging others for their sexuality is being confident in the right to your own. It's reasonable and possible to have any number of hard limits to your play. You sound like a wonderful person: you accepted that he has this challenging kink and you took it seriously enough to write to Dan.
I am told that anal sex leads one to lose their fear of shit. It was my private observation watching my wife shit continuously during many hours of labor that I had no negative feelings about that. She is beautiful. I love rimming her and on rare occasions there is a hint of a certain flavor that surprisingly does not bother me in the least.
Considering what he is asking of you, you might look at it as "it is better to give than to receive." If you just can't do it then don't fault yourself. That's who you are. Most of us feel the same way.
I'm done with nursing now, but I've been missing the tit play. My husband's an ass man and turned off by breasts--especially since he watched me nurse--but we're working on getting him comfortable with sucking on my tits. It can be hard for a person to change their ick factor of certain bodily functions, but my husband is slowly coming around.
Maybe MILK should give his wife some info about the fun parts of nursing. Help her get more comfortable with her body and maybe she'll actually get around to enjoying it. I'd even recommend treating her like a goddess, telling her that her breasts are beautiful, amazing, and powerful. It's very likely she's freaking that her breasts are gonna turn saggy after swelling up from pregnancy. I'd either talk to her directly, or get one of her female friends/family to talk about good bras, surgery if she wants it, or letting her know you find her attractive regardless.
Good luck, MILK. I hope it works out for you.
"ignore those who find what you are doing repugnant (#15). (The last thing a new parent needs is someone telling them they shouldn't be having kids due to some issue the opinion-holder is struggling with.)
MILK, you are about to enter a whole new universe of sexuality. Tolerate her autonomy over her own body and respect her temporary postpartum limitations. You will be rewarded for your efforts."
Unfortunately, as those of us who've been following these SL letters can attest, husbands being rewarded for their efforts are not a big feature of the Savage Love letter, in fact, I would say it's been quite the opposite lately, so I wouldn't make the assumption that if the guy just lays off and leaves her alone, things will be back to normal in no time. We seem to be discovering that "temporary postpartum limitations" stretch into years-long postpartum issues for a fair number of people, so it would be more helpful to examine things as a couple, and to deal with things as a couple, rather than seeing this as something where the power is only in the wife's hands.
@15 was pointing out that anyone who has that degree of bitterness is probably not a lot of fun to live with. I tend to agree with him.
offwhite @39 I've been a "new mom" three times. And yes, while it's exhausting, etc. etc., it doesn't give you an excuse to be a jerk, or to treat your husband like an annoyance. Their life changes pretty dramatically for that year, too. Compassion is needed on both sides.
@24....you comment broke my heart and gave me a whole new perspective. Thank you for that; at least you are not hurting anyone (I can NOT EVER come to terms with pedophilacs however). I hope you find someone. I hope Dan is reading this and perhaps tapers his comments a bit. Its not something I would personally find appealing, but hey...as long as its not hurting me or anyone else, its really none of my business, is it?
And dayum for IBS....can you seriously tape it???? I wanna watch too. That sounds hot as hell!
I never said it did. I was responding to 3 very specific criticisms levied at new mothers that I found dripping with male privilege.
Compassion is the best response all around, but criticizing a new mother for expressing fairly benign and reasonable frustrations deserves being called out for what it is: totally obnoxious.
@ 24 - You musn't read Savage Love that often, as Dan has repeatedly called scat "a fetish too far". He's being rather tame today by calling it "unreasonable". Knowing that, you should be able to put his comments in perspective. Hopefully, your therapy had a stronger effect than Dan's opinion; if not, you might want to stop reading his column for a while and go back to therapy - I don't think youre strong enough yet in your self-acceptance (just my two cents).
And besides, he's not saying scat fans are monsters, just that they should try and find each other, which is basically what he says about every sexual peculiarity.
@ 17 - Warm fudge smells like warm fudge, and I'm sure that's not the kind of smell that turns shit enthusiasts on (coz if you're into scat, surely the smell plays a role in your arousal). It's a rather silly suggestion.
Dan goes beyond saying "just that they should try and find each other." My reading is that he's saying one has no right to even ask a partner to participate in this kink unless you met on a website devoted to it. That goes beyond GGG issues and heads into what we might call "justifiable freak out" territory. I believe it's a short trip to gay panic defense land from there. Perhaps it would be better to tell CSE that saying no thank you is perfectly acceptable without becoming hysterical.
Bore. Best unintentional pun ever.
The first is more gross than boring, the second is more boring than gross, the third is more gross than boring, the fourth is more boring than gross. Though the last couple sentences in #4 are classic Savage.
On another subject, I feel a lot like the the guy in the last letter (without all the post-gender blahblahblah), so he should at least know he's not alone in his bonerdom. I'm bi-ish, I guess. I'm down with penises, but never met a guy attached to one that I'd actually want to do anything with. My wife's interested in MMF threeways, and I'm down with that too, but how do I find the guy that's right for me? :D
The funny thing is, I'm so totally into androgyny. Short hair on girls drives me crazy. Mostly this leads to me crushing on a lot of lesbians (with predictable results) yet the reverse effect on guys never seems to happen. Maybe I haven't met the proper waifish pretty boys yet.
Some women get off on breastfeeding, and more power to 'em, but the majority do not and a vast number suffer.
I had a very comfortable pregnancy, was fully sexual until labour, got right back on the horse soon after and breastfed with ease. But I could barely tolerate having my breasts touched until I stopped feeding as it was a highly sensitive, non-sexual zone. It was, to put it frankly, fucking annoying. So I say don't push it. A new mother has way more to deal with than you whining to be squirted on.
Some women get off on breastfeeding, and more power to 'em, but the majority do not and a vast number suffer.
I had a very comfortable pregnancy, was fully sexual until labour, got right back on the horse soon after and breastfed with ease. But I could barely tolerate having my breasts touched until I stopped feeding as it was a highly sensitive, non-sexual zone. It was, to put it frankly, fucking annoying. So I say don't push it. A new mother has way more to deal with than you whining to be squirted on.
I'm actually kind of impressed at 15 and 17s levels of self obsession and entitlement.
sarah_anonymous was just talking about her crazy, postpartum depression thoughts that she didn't seem to even share with her husband and those asshats still managed to hate her because of it.
They were upset with sarah because of a dark, anguished time she went through. How do you even manage....
I can't be angry because, that kind of self-obsessed entitlement is so off-the-charts ridiculous, it will surely prevent either one of them from ever finding a tincture real happiness in their lives.
Any SL reader who writes in with a scat question should know that Dan will be just a tad hysterical in his answer. So any SL reader who, upon reading Dan's answer on this subject, fails to filter it and tone it done, is "guilty" of not knowing Dan very well (I mean his writings, of course) or of being overly sensitive (in this case, for obvious and justifiable reasons).
It's like reading an action movie review by a critic who you know doesn't like action movies when you're a big fan of them. The review may contain valid points, but should you trust the critic's general opinion of the movie? Of course not.
The person I was answering to, CSE Support (@ 24) says that he/she sometimes sees Dan as a hero, but didn't know Dan's disgust for all things poo-ish. I say CSE Support needs 1) to know people better before calling them heroes, and 2) to work some more on his/her self-acceptance so that other people's opinion don't affect him/her so much.
Dan is not god. He gives ADVICE, he doesn't set absolute rules. If you grant him the status of a god and expect infallibly good judgement on his part, like any other of the made-up gods humanity worships (i.e. all of them), he's bound to disappoint you at one point. But it won't be his fault.
That said, men-who-want-marital-sex-to-continue should be paying attention to what women on this thread say works: telling them how much it turns you on to see them as earth-mother. (You won't have to say it forever! Just while they're feeling huge and earth-mothery...)
Odd - if we say we have a cow milk fetish and asked the partner to pour cow's milk all over them, the reactions would probably not be as visceral.
Curious.
Wait...whut? Weren't you just lecturing me that I was being a bit stuck up about boundaries and how you and your husband constantly did these things? Oh...oh...right...*now* you do these things!
;-)
So, what I'm saying here is pure conjecture. My sister tells me that the way you look at stuff like this completely changes. But this is how I see it from my completely uninformed position.
I've always found the idea of breast feeding horrific. You have an infant doing something to you that has been exclusively sexual for your whole life so far. It's almost like you are having to engage in pedophilia in order to feed your child. I can't understand how breastfeeding isn't traumatic.
So, it seems to me that, if I were a new mother, I would have to ask my husband to not touch my breasts and also request to wear my bra during intercourse until the breastfeeding were over.
Like, psychologically, I would need to pretend that my breasts weren't sexual things at all during the whole breastfeeding period. I would have to go into denial about boobies being sex organs in any way until that kid was completely off the breast milk.
That's presumptuous. And irrelevant. Again, I was talking about a particular display of male privilege. Regardless of how wanted a baby is, this sacrifice of autonomy takes its toll on many women. And anyone who criticizes a new/ish mother for simply expressing that it's not always easy is a douche.
For that matter, she isn't even saying "there isn't enough." She's saying "That's gross" and "not what it's for." As a mom-to-be, she has a whole lot of gross to get the hell over. Give her a couple of incidents of the kid losing its meal on her lap (likely enough getting everywhere from her hair to her slippers in the process), and what hubby proposes will seem positively pedestrian.
Particularly in light of the fact that it's going to happen whether she likes it or not. The fact that he enjoys the idea is great. Would she prefer a husband who freaks out and tells her she is gross when she involuntarily leaks on him during sex? (FWIW, both my wife and I thought it was hilarious.)
Seriously, if she's that freaked by bodily fluids, how did she ever manage to get pregnant in the first place?
Presumably their significant others, the one who fathered the child, had some say in the matter. Biologically the mother will contribute a huge amount of energy and will undergo enormous changes due to pregnancy and maternity. A father could get away with doing absolutely nothing, but the loving husband/father will ideally go to equally enormous lengths to ease his wife's burden however he can.
... a key element which was left out then, and now, is the D/s component of our relationship. He took charge of my life, when we were dating. So, yes, there was a time when I had trouble peeing in front of someone else. He worked on that, until it was no longer an issue. More recently, he got me able to take a dump with him in the room. The "since we were dating" phraseology was ambiguous - the change happened while we were dating, because of the D/s.
But the earlier point remains. Some people view these things differently than others. It is okay to read people's email if both people think it's okay; it's okay to pee or poop with other people in the room if both people think it's okay (or if one is the Dom and the other surrenders to the Dom.) There are no hard-and-fast rules that it is impolite to read your partner's email or pee in front of him (or poop on her) - these are boundaries which some people don't have. If their partners are willing, it is also possible to shift the boundaries one had when entering the relationship. Not easy, but possible, one step at a time.
It's hilarious how this guy thinks this is a prime moment to bring this up "...umm my wife was complaining about some changes to her body that she wasn't ready for and frankly found disgusting, and i thought this was a perfect moment to tell her it made me really horny..."
wow, genius timing.
@76: Yes, you are understanding me. There was a CHOICE made in this DECISION to go through a body-changing process in order to bring new life into the world.
@78: Yes, a CHOICE they both DECIDED to go through.
People get really fucking pissy when you point out that the only reason a person has the HARDSHIPS they do is because they CHOSE to live their lives that way. And that the husband then CHOSE to air his dirty laundry on the internet, of all places, instead of talking to his WIFE, who he is apparently mature enough to bring a child into the world with, but not mature enough to FUCKING TALK TO HER about something like sex.
And yes, I will be here LAUGHING about their lack of foresight because it's a lot better than completely giving up on the human race because I know that idiots like them are the ones who are breeding.
I also most definitely did NOT have enough milk to share. Feeding my daughter, who lost weight for the first five weeks of her life, which is fuckin' scary, involved minor surgery for her, herbs and specialists for me, and endless hours on a breast pump -- which is no fun and means I rarely left the house.
Nowhere does MILK say that his wife has problems with "bodily fluids"--she thinks him want the milk intended for his children is gross, nothing about semen or piss or blood or whatever. I'm fine with semen (swallow it often) but don't particularly enjoy pus. Does that mean I'm "freaked out by bodily fluids"?
Fortunately, even if my husband had had a lactation fetish, he was most invested in having healthy, well-nourished children and was more concerned with helping me feed them than he was with what he could get for himself.
I suspect I speak for a lot of readers when I say that I wish YOUR parents had really shown more foresight and considered not having YOU.
Your general intolerance, arrogance, incivility, and lack of compassion are just breathtaking. Although, I must admit, I do share your concern for the decline of the species when I read letters such as yours.
... a key element which was left out then, and now, is the D/s component of our relationship.
Um, well, that's fine; what I was really getting at was that clearly the comfort level - the lowering of boundaries (and that's been my word) - evolved (why - D/s, familiarity, time, whatever - isn't terribly important).
He took charge of my life, when we were dating. So, yes, there was a time when I had trouble peeing in front of someone else. He worked on that, until it was no longer an issue. More recently, he got me able to take a dump with him in the room.
FWIW, I don't think that having difficulty peeing in front of someone is..."an issue" to be worked on necessarily.
While I learned to carry on conversations and discussions with friends and acquaintances and even strangers in bathrooms with no partition doors (or partitions for that matter) starting in scout camp and straight through locker rooms, boarding school and college, I still prefer not to pee or dump in front of anyone, if avoidable - it's a private function, not a social occasion. Sure, there were guys who were tormented by their inability to be undressed (much less evacuating) in front of strangers in these formative situations, to the point that their inability to get any 'privacy' started to cause problems, and I suppose they needed to "work on it" but really, it's just good manners and an awareness of boundaries that tells me to shut the bathroom door if it (a door) is available.
The "since we were dating" phraseology was ambiguous - the change happened while we were dating, because of the D/s.
Heh..."ambiguous"...I'll say to you what so many have said to me: you should be a lawyer! Nice parsing!
I'm really just ribbing you a little here. The tone of your original response was a little...adamant. The point was taken on the merits, not the tone, and I appreciated the input. In the time following the discussions that ensued that week, I raised the issues I mentioned above and was caught off guard wondering if something was wrong when she suddenly shifted her behavior and started minding those things (not walking in on me in the bathroom)...I sensed the distancing, and it was a tad..uncomfortable! So much for my preachy manners.
I think it is acculturation - and it probably grows out of learning that our elimination functions are not to be played with. I'm ok with that. I don't have spawn, but I remember well the horror in my sibling's voice as she watched (while talking on the phone to me) her child fish some feces out of the diaper and start chowing down. I'm sure Dan will say the scat fetish is a direct result of our cultural taboo around this.
A) "Honey, you'll be wonderful whatever happens; there are products to help with that; and if it does happen, I actually think it would be sexy"
versus
B) "Honey, enough about your anxiety; back to focusing on me. It's actually super convenient that you're going to be lactating, because it fits right in with my new lactation fantasy! Aren't you excited for me?"
But, if you're just wanting to point out that I'm mad as a hatter, you are correct :D
I'm saying that people are different. (Some people want privacy - great- but my dom wasn't going to put up with that, so for us, it was an 'issue.')
What are your thoughts on privacy now that your gf is respecting your boundaries better? Do you feel your boundaries shifting, or are you just worried about the commitment she may want in exchange for changing her own behavior to suit you? Last time, you didn't seem very enamored of your gf; I'm curious how you feel this week. (Apologies that I have no manners and butt in to other people's business ... as we've been discussing, my boundaries are not where other people's are...)
It's presumptuous to assume every woman who gives birth chose to have a baby. Abortion may be legal, but until it's easily accessible it's not always an option.
Here's a great article about some of the barriers to abortion access in the US.
http://abortiongang.org/2010/07/what-eve…
Sorry... didn't mean to sidetrack the discussion, and don't want to make it about abortion. Just clarifying what I meant when I said "presumptuous."
I remember a post of a submissive guy who wanted to be fed a totally tasteless but yet nutritious type of food and asked Dan for suggestions. Dan's answer was something along the line of 'go to a vegan restaurant'.
My guess is that Dan is not fond of vegan/vegetarian food and sees seitan (used in vegetarian diets) as the most horrid kind of food ever eaten by man.
COLD has been hanging out with all the wrong people at college. I am just delighted that he didn't use the word 'cisgender'. Now, I like to look at women, and their bits, in porn - women are good to look at, and visually turn me on more than men, but it's men I like to fuck. My porn habits have never caused me to question my sexuality, possibly because I have the great good fortune never to have hung out with a bunch of losers - sorry, that is to say people with a post-gender/post-modern cultural-studies mind-set - from a gender studies class.