I haven't seen it, and I probably won't, since I live in Europe. But I wished I could. I've read descriptions, and it looks wonderful.

One question I have about Trey Parker and Matt Stone, though. Ever since their South Park episode on the Mormons, I got the impression they are much more respectful of Mr Joseph Smith's religion than of any other -- oh, they certainly criticize it, too but they don't do things to Mormonism like the ones they did to Catholicism (the Virgin Mary bleeding from her ass, for instance). Do they really respect Mormonism more than any other religion? Why don't they use their particularly scatological kind of humor (which was absent in their Mormon South Park episode, and also is in the Book of Mormon) when discussing Mormons? What gives?

Hey DOMA -- being married doesn't change the fact that you stay, each day, because you decide to stay, that day. I mean, sure, divorce is a bit of a hassle, but so is dividing up the property & pets, and you're already facing that bit of friction if you decide to walk. Of course you don't have to get married, but it's a happy way to bring all the people you love together for a fun party.

And I say that as someone who is reluctantly dealing with the fact that her husband of 15 years now has a girlfriend.

I had a first date the other night that was derailed by the man's admission that he was into she-males. While I don't think small talk over a Blooming Onion was the ideal time to bring it up, I'm glad now that I heard it then instead of four years in under these circumstances.

If I could punch someone for every time I heard a transgender lady being referred to as a she-male...ugh. But then again, you hear all sex workers being referred as whores or hookers and I'm sure those women don't like it either. So people are assholes who demean sex workers and transwomen working in the sex industry. Why am I surprised?

Hey, DOMA, marriage isn't compulsory for straights, either. For a variety of reasons - tax advantages, personal property issues, and a lack of desire to be in a relationship where the terms are decided for us - the BF and I (straight couple) have decided that marriage is probably not our best choice. You're going to get the questions no matter what you do, but if you're committed to the relationship, but not sold on legal marriage, and are willing (totally up to you)...think about having a commitment ceremony. The BF and I are doing this soon, with careful explanation to our friends and family that this is all about formalizing our commitment to each other without some legal issues we're not willing to deal with. Yes, many of our family members (not so much friends, but a few of them as well) are still wondering why we won't take the plunge, and we will have to continue to explain to them that legally and financially it doesn't make sense for us to get married officially. But it's ultimately about what works best for us, and whatever you decide about what works best for you...emotionally, financially, legally...whatever. It's your decision and you shouldn't be ashamed of that, no matter what other people think.

@7 EricaP

"And I say that as someone who is reluctantly dealing with the fact that her husband of 15 years now has a girlfriend."

I know you have your reasons for doing so. Please follow up with them for both our and your benefit.

@11 I doubt people are interested in the details of why I love my husband enough to put up with a certain amount of pain. You are also staying with your spouse, despite a certain amount of pain. My point, for the purposes of responding to DOMA, is that even as a long-married person, I still feel that I am making a decision to stay. Sometimes that decision is easy, and sometimes it's hard.

@10 I personally don't think that commitment ceremonies are a good idea because they seem to be pseudo-weddings. If you're not getting married, why do you need a wedding?

@13, totally an individual choice. In our case, we would LIKE to get married, but it doesn't make sense to do so. We would pay $8K in additional federal taxes, and even more in additional local taxes. We would be at a serious disadvantage in dealing with some personal property we own individually. We each come to this relationship with assets that we want to dispose of in the way we choose, and that would be harder under the proscribed methods of a formal marriage than as single people. For us, it IS our wedding, because we're likely never going to be at a point where it makes financial sense to get married, barring some serious legislation. For others it might make sense for other reasons to formalize their relationship in ways outside of the fully legal marriage situation, up to and including personal preference. Just suggesting another option. People can take it or leave it as they prefer.

DOMA, you seem to be conflating the two discussions or non-discussions you need to have. The first is with your girlfriend. You've been together 10 years. Does she know how you feel about marriage, or have you been operating under the "I'd marry you if I could" banner and now she reasonably expects you to want to get married? In any case, if you two are as close a committed couple as you say, you should be able to tell her that you are concerned that marriage would change the fantastic relationship that you have, and you don't want to marry. She may or may not agree or understand, but that is a conversation you need to have.
The other conversation is with everyone else, and is unnecessary. Your mother may want you to get married; all your friends or relatives may expect you to get married. But your decision to marry or not doesn't need approval, defense, or justification. You don't owe the world an explanation.

@9: A preoperative male-to-female individual is someone who is a "she" but with "male" parts. It's a crude term, but it is accurate.
I understand that transsexual people face a lot of harassment, transphobia, and discrimination, but they have bigger fish to fry than the word "shemale".

@ 4 (Ankylosaur): possibly because they have more intimate familiarity with it? I'm ex-mormon and I thought it was pretty good. I'm betting they didn't want to exaggerate it too much because it's stupid enough on its own.

My Mormon father was offended (and he "secretly" likes South Park), so I say mission accomplished.

@16 FTW.

And Dan's advice was ridiculous. "I need more time"??? After living together for 10 years? I suspect Dan was being sarcastic. "I need more time" now almost universally means "I don't want to marry you". What you should be having is a discussion -- with your girlfriend. I realize that you're afraid of it, but it will get worse if you postpone it.

And: you're not an asshole. My partner of 9.5 years and I don't want to get married mainly for the same reason you cited. We think it's a very strong reason. So, you're not alone.

Hey! I hope everybody saw the write-up about Dan in Sunday's N.Y. Times Magazine. Last time I checked, there were more than 600 comments. I've barely begun to read them.

If you're interested, you can find it here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/magazi…

The link does work. It just doesn't all show.

Totally off topic. Idle thoughts in the middle of the night. I don't know if it also applies to gays or people in general, but many women complain of men unwilling to commit in a relationship. Does anybody know if it is more or less of a problem/issue in open or poly relationships? Can anyone in an open or poly relationship really expect long term commitment to the relationship? In today's world, I often wonder about just how committed men (or women for that matter) to any relationship.

Excluding fetishists, who enjoy actually enjoy/crave being one, do women actually understand the humiliation associated with being a cuckold since there really isn't a female equivalent. It still such a derogatory and derisive term. Women who are cheated on are granted sympathy, support, and victim status. Men are more likely to be ridiculed, behind their backs if not to their faces. The impact it has on a man's self esteem and self image. One of the added benefits of cheating with a married woman or one in a committed relationship.

@6, 7, 11 (EricaP),

I'm sad to hear you had to face such a difficult decision, and I hope it is the best one for you.

Take care.

@ 9 and 17:

I think there are significant distinctions between all these various terms, with "she-male" meaning something quite specific. Perhaps Dan would correct this or elaborate at some point. (Pre-op vs. Post-op.)

"Transgender" or "Transexual" mean that the gender is either literally reassigned, either through actual medical procedures, or the permanent wish to do so. "She-male" is not related to this.

"Transvestite" is very different - just a biological male that dresses in typically female clothing, as well as usually hair-style, and make-up. This individual might or might not be gay at all.

"She-male" is a special sub-category of transvestite, associated with sex work, in which the penis is likely desired by the client (as in WBNE's ex, above, who fantasizes and perhaps desires to be fucked BY the she-male.) Therefore, an authentic transgender person would probably have little to do with the "she-male" phenomenon and not often have an issue with the term.

A "Tranny" is a broader sub-category of transvestite, in which it a more general feminine "passable" identity is assumed, and probably a sex-worker. The client would more likely want to fuck the tranny than be fucked by her.

And finally, a "drag queen" is simply a performer, a female-impersonator, that may or may not be gay.

(If I am off-base in these, please have at me! Not literally of course...)

DOMA - zzzzzzz. Seriously? Welcome to life. Everyday, millions of people make choices and decisions about their lives and sometimes these decisions are about whether or not they want to spend their lives with another.
I get the impression that it is the lies that are more troubling. So, you've been crowing to anyone who'd listen that you wanted to get married and blah, blah, blah but now that the road is free and clear to do so, you have to now act without a net, so to speak.
Time to grow up, honey, and say what you mean and mean what you say. It's a trait that is rare but boy, is it valuable!

You mention the possibility of an STI to WBNE, but not a word about it to FLACID, who hasn't used a condom in 9 years and complains about his new girlfriend wanting to use 'em??

@26 --
You ninny, DOMA hasn't been crowing that she wanted to get married. She's been passionately defending marriage equality. Huge difference, duh.

@24 I would say not necessarily. Your post seems to assume the only reason a genderqueer or transgender woman would want to keep her penis, but have top surgery and otherwise appear female, is to become a niche sex worker, which is not true, although that perception isn't helped by the fact that the only terms to specifically describe such a person, rather than a person at any other stage/type of transition, are steeped in porn/sex work.

I truly doubt someone who doesn't identify as AT LEAST genderqueer, if not exactly trans, would do everything to their bodies that is required to become a "shemale" or a "chick-with-dick"-- top surgery, hormones, et cetera, not to mention take on the very real risk all trans people face of some dumbass in your life finding out and beating the shit out of you.
Maybe she doesn't identify as fully female, maybe she keeps it as kind of a "fuck you" to the gender binary, maybe she's afraid of the surgery (I mean, think about what it is!), maybe she just likes her penis. I'm sure an actual trans person could come up with more.

Also, I've always assumed that "tranny" and "shemale" were roughly equivalent.

@ 22 - "Excluding fetishists, who enjoy actually enjoy/crave being one, do women actually understand the humiliation associated with being a cuckold since there really isn't a female equivalent. It still such a derogatory and derisive term. Women who are cheated on are granted sympathy, support, and victim status. Men are more likely to be ridiculed, behind their backs if not to their faces. The impact it has on a man's self esteem and self image. One of the added benefits of cheating with a married woman or one in a committed relationship."

What planet are you on? Women have to put up with looking life fools because of the generally accepted notion that men need to "sow their wild oats" and women are just supposed to "put up with it." Most men will get upset when wife fucks someone else - completely missing the reality because they are so caught up with their emotions (yes, men ARE more emotionally volatile than women, indeed, and anyone who wants to "argue" that hasn't been keeping up) that a mindful relationship which has little to do with sex is much more of a threat than any sexual one could be.
It is curious how there are so many women who are willing to "forgive" a man's philandering (because they know that sex is sex) yet men will turn their back on a decades long partnership if they found their wives doing the same. To men, emotions and sex are the same thing and this whole "love and leave 'em" malarky is simply a defence mechanism to allow themselves the time to get away because they do become attached so quickly. Curiously, if one were to ask a cheating man if what they've done with that woman who isn't their partner is anything more than "just sex" they'd say, "no, it was just sex." Ask them how they would see the event if their partners had an evening of "just sex" and the tune changes.
Again, I don't know what planet you're on but being classed as a "victim" and one in need of "support" is pretty embarassing, to say the least. How would you like it if, just because of your sex, it was assumed that you would take your partner back or accept and put up with your partner's cheating? That is what women are "expected" to do everyday a man's cheating is exposed. Women are expected to "salvage the relationship" and this becomes much, much worse when there are children involved. Heaven forbid a woman dump a cheating partner and leave the kids "fatherless!" And, you think that isn't humiliating!
You asked whether or not women actually understand what it feels like to be "cuckolded!" You are obviously NOT a woman because if you haven't noticed, men are much more likely to cheat than women are in a relationship and men are granted a "hero" status when they do so.
You mentioned what it does to a man's self image and esteem. It wouldn't "do" anything if men saw their partners as lovers and friends and not property or some "thing" to be possessed. THAT is where the whole "damage to the self-esteem" comes from. In fact, a man will put his pride and how he "appears" to others well before saving any relationship and that includes a relationship where children are involved. Actually, there are few more annoying things in life than a man who is more concerned with "how he appears to others" than the commitment he has placed on his relationship.
And, you can't see how women have known what it feels like to be "cuckolded" since the beginning of time? Men get off relatively easy when it comes to the "cheating" stakes. Women, in general, lose a hell of a lot more - their dignity, the security of knowing they are dealing with an honest person, their self esteem (which comes from a different well than that of men when it comes to relationships).
If these men you describe would be true to their own words and see sex just as sex and not confuse it with their emotions, then they would lose very little. In fact, generally speaking - and ALL of what I've written IS "generally speaking" - a man would have an easier time salvaging his relationship (if he gave a damn about it, that is) if his partner had only "just had sex." Women tend to have sex for very different reasons to men and are quite easy to please (no matter WHAT men try to say to complicate life and others). A woman will respond to caring and support much more readily than the average, generally speaking, man. When a woman "cheats" it doesn't mean the end of a relationship but so many men will end it just because of their stupid pride - and they will do so no matter how much they "love" their partner. Hence the reason why there are more men who cheat on their partners than women but the gap in numbers is steadily closing.
AND, most societies are so backwards that they even have to give a man who accepts his wife/partner's cheating a "name." It is called being cuckolded. Women DO NOT have that luxury. They're just called mugs or idiots when they try to save their relationships because it IS more important than their partner's philandering.
By the way, and even if anyone "disagrees" with anything else I've written, this is fact: for most women, it is never about "the cheating" but the lying. Lie to a woman and your days a numbered. Yet, men do it everyday and they do it as if it were a "joke." It's real life, boys and you only get one shot at it. If you have to lie to your partner then you aren't with the right person and it's time to move on. Men think it's about them fucking around. Nope - it's about the lying. Always has been and always will be. Yes, there will be some fools who will "argue" this point but at some point in their lives, they will learn, "oh, yes, it IS about the lying and I would have saved myself a lot of trouble by simply being honest."

After all, it IS "just sex."

@ Frederica, I find it a little annoying how you state that anyone arguing any of your points must be a fool or from another planet. There's a couple of logic flaws in your post, but they're a little hard to isolate in your wall o' text.

FLACID needs to grow the hell up! Men who whine like little babies over having to use condoms with NEW partners are self-indulgent children. I'd dump any man who had a problem with using them. Mercifully, all of my sexual partners have been grown ups who knew that if they didn't wear that condom they weren't having sex with me. Now, in the UK, there are a lot of men who actually think their dicks have some sort of force field around them that protects them from disease. Men who don't use condoms are just gross and I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. They are saying to the world, "I've put my dick in places where I care so little about my body that I've most likely picked up a few STDs here and there and now I want YOU to have sex with me." Er, no. It's a huge turn off.
If you don't have enough sense and self respect to protect your own body - let alone your partner's - then you shouldn't be having sex at all.
If you're a man and you can't get used to using a condom, then you ought not to be having sex. That, or "save yourself for marriage" so others don't have to put up with your bullshit.

I make the "male assumption" that if a guy doesn't want to use a condom then his dick is automatically STD laden. Hey, if he isn't using a condom with me then you KNOW he isn't using one with anyone else. Yuck. ("male assumption" meaning that dreary notion of the unenlightened man that if a woman has sex with him as a one night stand then she "must do it with everyone." No, boys, that woman may be only doing it with YOU but not using a condom is self explanatory.)

This guy needs to practice, practice, practice with getting used to using a condom and get over the whole "psychological" thing he's convinced himself actually exists.
It's very selfish to expect one's partner to expose themselves to whatever you've picked up simply because you're not grown up enough to use a condom. As long as YOU "get off" who cares if your partner is laying their paranoid about your disease infested dick, eh? Yep, the anxiety of wondering whether or not one is getting a dose of Chlamydia (no symptoms) or Gonorrhea or Syphillis or Herpes is REALLY relaxing and orgasm inducing. Ha, ha, ha, ha...
Kids!

@ 22 - there isn't a generally accepted word for a female cuckold because until very recently nobody gave a rat's ass about women's feelings about it. just some mysteriously malevolent poetic "woman scorned" force. it is hugely painful and humiliating.

@ 31 - Don't care, honey. Go and have some life experiences and stop thinking the rest of the world cares about your "annoyances."
It's life - those in your immediate surroundings are most likely very concerned, indeed, if you are "annoyed" with something but the rest of the world is much too busy getting on with their own "annoyances." What? Did you think there'd be some soothing words to "make you feel better?"
Nope, you need to figure out your own ways of "feeling better" - in the same way that everyone else on this Earth must do the same.
This is the first time I've read ANY replies to any of my posts so consider yourself granted a crumb of attention that I bothered dropping a line at all.
You, like anyone else, can read my posts and take them on board or ignore them. Simple.
This thread cracks me up the way so many on here take is SO "seriously."
Like it's some little world where they have status on the proverbial totem pole. Sorry, folks, such is life that anyone can post and you have the right to agree or disagree but to get "annoyed" is simply a waste of time and energy.
Geesh, if someone's piddly comment makes you so "annoyed" then you must walk around looking for a constant stream of petty nuisances and annoyances to match your inner landscape. Words to think about. Disagree, argue it in your head but by golly, don't bother with being "annoyed" for there will be a multitude of other experiences in life that will be more in need of that precious energy than wasting it on being "annoyed."
I'm gone now so don't bother replying unless you want the cheap jolly of "having the last word" - yep, there are plenty like that - because it makes no difference to me.

Ms Erica, sorry about your difficulty.

Ms D, It would seem that DOMA's problem lies more in the promise than the legality. A commitment ceremony can be exactly what suits many people best, but it might be the worst outcome for DOMA.

Ms Cute, while DOMA might have been not entirely serious, I suspect that their families may well expect them to marry without either side liking the idea much. I'd point out gently that one item on the pro-marrying list is that it prevents a not-really-all-THAT-supportive family from yielding to the temptation of Challenging the Will. I don't urge either course, but it is a consideration.

Also: didn't a recent LW get majorly dinged for calling himself a parent to a dog? Why no such disapproval here - female LW? coupled LW? some sign that her not wanting to marry and her views on pets seem well suited?

ankylosaur@23 – let me rephrase. This week, the hardest thing about staying with my husband is that he has a girlfriend, and I am feeling jealous of his intimacy with her. Other weeks, there have been other difficult things to face. What I want from him is that he spend time with me and feel close to me. So – I also miss him when he's spending time with guy friends, or spending time working crazy hours at work, or just has his head down checking messages when I want his full attention.

I don't want to trade him in for another person who might have fewer distractions; I want him. Every day. That's how I know that I'm staying. The open marriage just adds a level of annoyance because I can't talk about my feelings with my friends & family. Our culture says I should make him choose between me and his girlfriend. But I don't want to force him to give up his new fun, I just want to stop hurting. My life experiences tell me that time and staying busy will help with the pain.

And in the meantime, I am saying to DOMA and to Ola @19 that getting married wouldn't make you irrevocably bound to each other, any more than getting a dog together means that. Also @22, being in an open relationship doesn't mean you are looking to leave. In any long-term relationship, monogamous or not, living together or apart, married or not – each person will find times when it doesn't feel like bliss. During those hard times, either your shared history and love keeps you together, or not.

vennominon @36 - excellent point re "proud parents of the two cutest dogs ever" vs the doggie daddy of a few weeks ago.

edit to 37: either your shared history and love KEEP you together, or not.

FLACID: Try jerking off while using a condom. She shouldn't have to go on hormonal birth control when the problem is as good as fixed with you putting on a rubber. Or better yet; condom make you limp? Maybe you shouldn't be having sex.

I fucking hate it when pet owners call themselves parents. Animals are not kids you dipshits!

Great column as usual, Dan, other than not calling that idiot out.

As a straight male sitting on the sideline (and applauding) newly enacted marriage equality legislation, I am fascinated by the societal pressure gays are feeling to legalize their relationship. You have come a long way baby!

Marriage does change things, I believe. You are legally entangling your lives. A lot of states do not allow spousal support for mere "common-law" relationships, for example. I think people who are merely co-habitating but not married would be much more likely to put an end to their relationship since they don't have the legal and social stigma associated with ending a marriage.

EricaP - thanks for your bravery in sharing your experience. I have often admired your advocacy and opinions.

As a voyeur to your life, it is interesting to watch the progression you have made into an open marriage. A while back, in the thread on monogamous marriages, you had encouraged husbands to be more honest with their wives on their need for outside activity, even if the initial reaction would cause significant pain to their wives. I would be interested in your perspective (on day, without raw emotions) whether the "opening up" was worth it.

Best of luck, it is all b'shert (sp).

For anyone who has FLACID's problem, and wants condoms for birth control but does not need the STD protection, I highly recommend Naturalamb condoms. My husband and I both strongly dislike condoms, and these are the best feeling ones I know of. Great for those post-partum times when you're unable to use other forms of birth control, but still need some protection. Or, once you and partner are in a position of trust on STDs, but you still want a condom, these are the ideal solution.

@44 - here are my current thoughts: if your partner is generally open to new experiences (like me), you're better off telling.

If your partner is mostly afraid of new experiences, then you have a different calculus:
A) Stop having sex with your partner; get your needs met outside the marriage.
B) Talk about your needs and face the likely divorce with a clear conscience.
C) Cheat, using condoms, and accept the fact that everyone will see you as the Bad Guy when it all comes out.

For me, personally, I'm okay with the open marriage. Going on vanilla dates with new guys is fun, though I'm envious that my husband found someone he connects with and I haven't found a sex partner I really connect with yet. Still, our marital sex is much hotter now, and that's a win/win situation.

And also -- I get my BDSM kink satisfied much more often now that I have a circle of outside friends to tie me up & beat me.

Trans women are women. I don't ask what's under their skirts. But my husband (like many men) fantasizes about sucking the cock of a person with breasts. Most trans women aren't interested in that.

But some sex workers offer it, professionally. So what is the appropriate way to talk about this fantasy and its fulfillment? I use "chicks with dicks" to label the fantasy, the way one might talk of a guy fantasizing about "schoolgirls." And it only references people interested in playing along with the fantasy. I myself become a "chick with dick" when I strap-on a dildo, but I admit that a real life dick is hotter.

@4 ankylosaur Re: South Park & Mormons ...

Season 4 episode 10 of South Park "Probably" -
Heaven is occupied solely by Mormons ... all followers of other faiths are in hell regardless of how good they were because they followed the wrong religion.

Season 7, episode 12 of South Park "All About Mormons" gives as factual an account of the beginning of Mormonism as any offered by that church.

I'd sum up Trey & Matt's attitude on Mormonism as follows: all the Mormon dogma is bullshit and the founder was a con man. Yet somehow the Mormons are generally nicer (if perhaps a bit more gullible) people than most... so maybe something about Mormonism works even though it is a crock of shit?

You can find these episodes online in various places (youtube)

I just love you, Dan. If you were straight, I would totally stalk you... in a good way.

@22 As a polyandrous female, I haven't found that males are 'unwilling to commit in a relationship', but I'm honest about what I'm looking for, so my relationships pretty much start committed or don't start.

"Can anyone in an open or poly relationship really expect long term commitment to the relationship?"

Yes, why couldn't you? Committing to a relationship, for me, means being there for the people you love, supporting them emotionally and financially if need be, supporting their goals, being GGG, and so on. It can happen in monogamous, monogamish or nonmonogamous relationships. It can also be absent from any of the above.

When you say women complain about men's lack of commitment, do you know what they mean? It's a concept I've always struggled with because it seems to suddenly come up in established relationships, and I always wonder "why didn't you discuss these issues before starting the relationship?"

@30 Poor choice of words at 2AM, but as far as I know other women don't ridicule or laugh at a woman whose husband/man cheats on her. Possibly because they realize how easily it could happen to them. I could well be wrong about this. Of course humiliation is experienced by regardless of your sex and anyone's self esteem will take a hit. Self hatred is also not gender specific.

I love how Dan's so good at this now, he just can do it reflexively. To FLACID, he digresses into gay marriage, The Book of Mormon, then, oh, yeah, the question? Do this this and this. Bam-solved! Next.

P.S. I feel unbearably lame that I don't know what GGG means. Enlightenment anyone?

jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…

FLACID: Buy some Viagra online. That sh!t will rehabilitate your limp dick faster than you can say "hard-on".

Thank you, Ms Erica. I have noticed that some women get at least a partial pass about being "Pet Parents".

More power to you as you do your best to handle a tricky situation with grace. I have half an instinct to compare you to Jacqueline de Bellefort and another to ask if you've read much of Iris Murdoch.

@ 34, for not caring, you sure have a lot to say about my minor annoyance.

I didn't give a pass to DOMA's description of herself as a dog's parent. I rolled my eyes and everything as I read it. But I just didn't feel like engaging with it. For what it's worth: your pets aren't children.

@37 EricaP

If I may paraphrase you:

I don't want to trade her in for another person who (insert any reason); I want her. Every day. That's how I know that I'm staying.

Thanks for articulating that so well. Of course how I go about managing to stay may be quite different from the way you do.

Owners. By calling yourself a Pet Parent, you're calling yourself a dog. Only dogs have puppies, is that what you are? No, STFU. An owner-pet bond is completely different to a parent-child bond. Taking care of things you like does not make you their parent. Go read a dictionary.

@ 42 I know! I love pets but I hate children, so to me it's like an insult!

OMG DAN!!! ROFL!!!

In your podcast & in response to the "hungry unicorn" question ... "it's not gay because a man could do it to a woman and lick her ***TAINT***".

What does a woman have where a man has a taint, Dan?

This is not a trick question ...

There's a *vagina* there, Dan.
*Please* try to remember - you're the pro here.

@64: Yes, I thought the same thing when I listened to the podcast.

@54 a woman who stays with her philandering husband is seen as a fool.

@57, how does Jacqueline de Bellefort come into this? She conspires to murder her lover's wife. I will confess to holding myself to higher standards. My inspiration, such as it is, comes more from Sondheim than Murdoch.

@69, yes, Hunter. By the few friends I've told. Our culture is cruel. As are you.

Hi EricaP @ 71,

I'm wishing you joy. Thank you for your transparency. And, you're right, relationships are a give and take. You're wise and you know how to keep the balance.

Take care,
k

@ 69,

You remind me of my childhood bully, always making little jabs. Please don't tell me she started it, either. I think you're a better person than you like to portray here. And, lets face it, "cruelty" is only sexy when it is in a consensual BDSM relationship. Stop please.

Hi Kim! I missed you in Slog Bible Study this week :-)

@64 & 65: There's a nice little sensitive bit of skin twixt the vagina & the anus -- the lower edge of the "wall" separating those organs. 'Tain't pussy & 'tain't asshole -- you know, TAINT!

More anatomically correct name is the "perineum."

I don't know, 36. I was once of the mindset that "doesn't sticking around - day-in and day-out - make our relationship more meaningful than being beholden to a public commitment?" Once we had a lengthy discussion about how not getting legally married would actually be a better option for us, I was ALL FOR the ceremony. I wasn't actually afraid of telling the world how I felt, I was afraid of being trapped by a legal structure that I believe has a lot of flaws for many people (but many benefits for many other people, just not us).

I'm simply suggesting that the sudden availability of marriage and all the other issues that come with having a legally-binding relationship *might* be part of her discomfort. Just an opportunity to think about the source of the discomfort a little more, and explore all of their options rather than taking a "marriage or nothing" approach. If she ultimately decides that any type of public declaration is not up her alley...fine! Really, it's her and her partner's choice. But I know, for me personally, having the pressure of conforming to a set standard of "marriage" taken off me made me want to declare my intentions post-haste...much to his pleasure as he was all for marriage until we really sat down and examined what that would mean for us! He was interested in the commitment, I was interested in preserving my legal autonomy...middle ground is great from my vantage point!

EricaP, I'm in the early stages of ending my 28 year partnership and understand the heartbreak, stress and anxiety you're going through in making your decision. This was obviously very difficult for me for many, many reasons, but ultimately I couldn't keep postponing the inevitable. I kept recalling this old saying: "Change occurs when the pain of remaining the same is greater than the pain of change."

I hope everything works out for the best for you. You'll be in my thoughts. xo

64, 75-- The best explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thPN6-5tA…

But yes, perineum is the most correct term.

@Erica

I'm not married and have less life experience than most people here but I think it's salient to point out that there's a difference between staying with a philandering husband (ie. staying with someone despite them having been disrespectful to you, and shown a lack of concern for your feelings - which I do think IS somewhat foolish and not something I would do) and opening up your marriage with the desire to make them happy (which is something I personally could not do, but I don't think you're foolish for doing it. Not that it matters)

@76

we would, but they're just so gash darn cute

@79 -- Of course -- and both males & females have perinea!

From Urban Dictionary:
1. On a man, the area between the sack and the crack
2. On a woman, the area between the giney and the heinie

@ 74,
Hi Erica,

I responded to your request on that thread.

One thing that might help with wearing condoms is to get better fitting ones. For some reason the USA does not have really wide condoms, so I import mine from Amsterdam:

http://condomerie.com/condooms-op-maat
(Switch the little flag in the top corner to English if you get Dutch.)

Win all around.

Not all women can do hormonal birth control --- drugs make it less effective and it has side effects. Seen the articles about it changing what men women are attracted to? Eek.

despicable_me @78 - so sorry to hear that you are going through sad times; I hope you receive not just less pain through the change, but some chance for joy as well.

>> "Change occurs when the pain of remaining the same is greater than the pain of change."

I didn't have an option called "remaining the same." He changed. I could cope, or I could leave, but I couldn't force things back the way they were. That's life. And I like my lemonade just fine, even if I didn't ask for a lemon tree in my backyard.

In any relationship there is always the risk of one party or the other of bonding with someone else. As I see it that is risk greater with an open or poly relationship since the participants are already engaged in the type behavior that makes bonding possible. That is a risk I would rather avoid as much as possible.

@32 Wow, how many assumptions can you cram into one comment. You went from 9 years not wearing a condom to 9 years of fucking anything that moves without a condom. Did it even occur to you that the reason this guy hasn't used a condom in 9 years was that he was in a long term relationship and this is his first relationship since?

I think most people expect that in a straight monogamous relationship where both partners are STI free, and have been tested to make sure, and another birth control is being used (or the woman has entered menopause) that condom use will usually end.

I do think FLACID just needs to get over it. Honestly I've never understood men whining about getting a bit soft when putting on a condom. Like once they start getting soft they can't get it up again. That's when you ask you partner to help you get it hard again with a little hand or mouth assistance.

It sounds like FLACID may be putting just a little too much emphasis on vaginal penetration over other forms of sexual contact. Not all sex has to end with the guy coming from fucking a pussy. Dan is right, relax when it comes to penetration and do something else.

Erica- having a nice party for the family is no reason to get married- why not just throw a party? If you think your husband respects you for your ability to compromise and or be open minded about this, you are wrong. He sees you as a dumb sucker that he can continue to use.... have some self respect and maybe he will come to respect you as well.

The advice for FLACID sounds so reasonable. I only wish we got follow-through in these columns. Does it work? Did it work? I'd like to hear from someone who tried non-penetrative sex for a while and now is happily getting hard again with or without condoms. How long did it take? Do you think viagra would have been the better way to go? Was your partner happy with the arrangement? Were there other issues besides the condom, maybe something to do with not getting hard when emotionally involved?

Enjoy your lemonade, EricaP :)

@86: What do you mean, 'risk'? The whole point is often to bond with someone else, not to avoid bonding.

I fucking hate it when pet owners call themselves parents. Animals are not kids you dipshits!

I know, right? It's completely different. If you have a cat or a dog, you're committing to taking care of them for the rest of their life; you clean their pee, poop, and vomit, stay up worrying when they're sick, comfort them when they're afraid, teach them right from wrong and how to play nicely with others, and try to make sure they're physically healthy and intellectually stimulated.

Whereas with a kid....................wait, where was I going with this?

Sadly, to one who has followed EricaP's story for some time, it appears that based on what she is sharing that she is no longer in a mutual primary relationship with her husband. [Reading tea leaves with limited information is not a precise science] Some general observations not necessarily applicable in this or any specific situation. There is no satisfying some people and they will always want more. Repeatedly compromising with them is ultimately futile and only delays the inevitable. Coming to that realization is often a very painful and torturous process. No matter how desperately you may want something or someone won't make it true and will in the long run just cause you more pain and humiliation.

Damn server didn't save my qualifying postscript.

From the adult child of a (really long) dead, extremely insecure and manipulative alcoholic mother. At times I still flash back on the frustration and helplessness of my youth.

@ 22:

"Can anyone in an open or poly relationship really expect long term commitment to the relationship?"

Well... yes. My wife and I have been together almost twelve years and going strong; the two of us have been with our shared boyfriend for six years, and I've been with my girlfriend for two. This all took lots and lots and LOTS of talk and work and making-sure-we-shared-the-same-expectations for each relationship, but it works very well.

I think you make an interesting point, though, in your comment @54... "as far as I know other women don't ridicule or laugh at a woman whose husband/man cheats on her."

With the implication that other men do. This says a lot to me about patriarchy. If women are seen as conquests and property, then a man who can't keep a woman-- whose conquest turns out not to have been quite conquered after all, and whose property gets stolen-- is a failure, and deserves to be laughed at. For women in that system, though, it's unfortunate but inevitable that men won't be satisfied with just one conquest, and will go on to others-- and so women in that system sympathize with each other about men's infidelities rather as they would about natural disasters or illnesses.

Dear *gods*, do I prefer to live in a system wherein I'm in relationships with people because I like *those individual people*, and want to be with them because I enjoy their company, not because my self-image depends on it.

(I'm not saying that people in the above-mentioned system don't *also* enjoy each other's company as people, but that overlay of patriarchy/conquest adds some nasty complications to it.)

Ms Erica - Well, JdB is a bit extreme, but on occasion one does pick up little hints of "un qui aime et un qui se laisse aimer," which is Poirot's impression of Jacqueline and Simon when he happens to overhear them at Chez Ma Tante. Actually, of the triangle, I invoke Linnet quite often, and it was nice to give Jackie, whom I find far preferable to either Doyle, an airing.

Dame Iris actually seems to have more explorations of married couples with an outside BF/GF than not, and reasonably well balanced. Let's see: The Sandcastle(H), The Bell(W), A Severed Head(HW), An Unofficial Rose(HW), The Nice and the Good(W), Bruno's Dream(WH), A Fairly Honourable Defeat(WH), An Accidental Man(H), The Sacred and Profane Love Machine(H), The Philosopher's Pupil(H), The Good Apprentice(W), The Book and the Brotherhood(W), The Message to the Planet(H), and several others with an indirect look at the couple or in which they aren't married: The Unicorn; The Italian Girl; The Black Prince; A Word Child; The Sea, the Sea; Nuns and Soldiers.

@89 - Who is to say who is using whom? He gets hot sex with me and his new girl friend, but on the other hand he works crazy hours at a very intense job. Me, I'm a writer, and frequent Slog poster. I take care of our kids, and I get hot sex with him (and get my intense kink needs met with other people). Maybe he's the dumb sucker? Or maybe there is no dumb sucker, just two people trying to figure out life without an answer key.

@95 - he's had a girlfriend for a month. The fact that they have some "New Relationship Energy" is not the same as saying he's about to abandon me and his family. But thanks for gratuitously trying to undermine my marriage.

As for this: "There is no satisfying some people and they will always want more." Yes. True. More love, more hot sex, more happiness, until the day they die. Crazy bastards.

Frederica Bimble said: "FLACID needs to grow the hell up! Men who whine like little babies over having to use condoms with NEW partners are self-indulgent children. I'd dump any man who had a problem with using them..."

For which the men in question should be enormously grateful.

@86 - it's impossible to avoid the risk of your partner falling in love with someone else and leaving you, unless you lock your partner in the basement with no internet access. To love is to risk pain. There is no "safe" way through.

@96 - just noticed your postscript. I'm sorry for your childhood pain with your untrustworthy mother.

"It's impossible to avoid the risk of your partner falling in love with someone else and leaving you ... To love is to risk pain. There is no 'safe' way through." - EricaP

You have my thanks. This is true wisdom I've learned from.