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Cut out of dad's face on another body?! Really?!
Oh, and not to mention the predictable, (and yet outdated) porn in the bedside stand routine.
Boo!
And because I care about how the cheated-on spouse feels, you think it would be "awesome" if I were being cheated on by my husband? Seriously, something is wrong inside your head and heart. Check into that, maybe.
Don't you just love picturesque metaphors. :-) LMAO
First person who guesses it gets a million dollars. :)
I don't have the time to try and figure out your certainly-awesome acronym.
Has she expressed that thought to you? Maybe you should stop speaking for her. Would you like it if your younger brother preened and said "I make Mom happy in ways you can't?"
If it were me I would have two separate conversations with brother. 1- Can I borrow your charger and 2-" I see that you're no longer a kid, and are now a man. Boy, i remember how embarrassed I was when Mom found my porm collection. I hope you're smarter about hiding it than I was. "
There is nothing to be gained by letting him know what you saw.
I read somewhere that once-a-month-or-less meets the generally accepted clinical standard of "sexless."
Your point about it being a mismatch rather than an absolute is well taken. I have to wonder, though: why don't we ever hear about the cases where he wants it five times a day and she only wants it three? Maybe that's because one end of that spectrum is largely a straw man, while the other end is a sadly all-too-common occurrence.
These are the issues in relationships that are really interesting, Dan's vacuous and shallow analyses aside.
But let's assume that there is a couple with very clear dominant and submissive roles. Do those roles eclipse the very fundamental need to respect and love your partner? Do they completely destroy any possible means of having a thoughtful, honest conversation? 'Cause if so, than it probably wasn't much of a relationship in the first place.
And anyways I don't really get upset over manipulation. We all do it and most of the time its so obvious that they might as well write it across their foreheads. As to how serious any possible threats and ultimatums are, well that would have to be determined by the other partner since some people's tempers run their mouths more than others. Though I assume most here would consider that a dick move.
"Can you issue ultimatums? Can you threaten to leave the family?"
Yes, there's nothing stopping you from doing that. But what will that get you? Will the threatened partner be happy after relenting? Will you have a healthy marriage? Can you be happy if your spouse is profoundly unhappy?
The point of open marriage is not to get away with something. It's to have a healthier, more fulfilling life. Why don't you take a look at the many personal stories of successful open marriages to see what both of the participants get out of it?
People who fail at open marriage by using coercion to get it are no more an argument against that type of relationship than cheaters or abusers are against monogamy.
Absolutely it's uncommon, maybe even non existent, but I was using it not as a strawman but to illustrate that sexuality is continuous. It's easy to draw a line at "no sex". But here we are already saying that (from you) "once a month or less" is sexless, while someone else is suggesting less than 4 times a year. (So once every three months) I once knew a girl who was in a relationship with a guy who she had gone almost a year without sleeping with. This was a young couple, like mid-early twenties, not married, no kids.
There's no clear line of what's "reasonable" to expect in terms of sex in a relationship and therefore no line to discern what's "unreasonable" in terms of one partner expecting the other not to look outside the relationship.
I'm not saying Dan doesn't make a compelling suggestion. I'm just arguing that in real life it's usually not so clear cut.
Also: for the record, I've seen situations (not as extreme as the five time as a day) where the man was getting a fairly average amount of sex for his age bracket and parental status but still felt he was entitled to look outside the relationship. So you might be surprised.
In my personal case I can only hope that if I do get married it works like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM6w3_ljS… and I don't have to worry about cheating.
I know, how about just not sleeping with anyone other than your spouse, right? Yes, the "keep it in your pants" argument is working so well for teens, Catholic priests and somewhere between twenty and sixty percent of the married population, depending where you get your stats.
He said (more or less), "I love you and I love fucking you, but I also want to fuck other women." Our society says that I'm the one who's supposed to issue an ultimatum at that point: "Stay monogamous or I'll leave." I didn't want to leave. I want 100% of my husband's non-work time, but it turned out I can't have that. How much would I get if I walked? None. I'd rather have 90% of his non-work time, than none. Easy choice for me. Not my top choice, but I don't own him.
If you don't like your spouse much, then it's easy to choose to leave if he or she screws up.
If you love your spouse but you can't stand to think of them with someone else, then you say that. That's when ultimatums are crucial -- when it's the honest truth about what you can and can't bear.
mydriasis @131 – thanks for that video – the red latex dress at 2:45 is smoking!
Though it bugs me to hear the bs that if you treat your man right, he won't stray. Some won't, some will. A man can love his wife's cooking better than anyone else's; he might still want to go out to a restaurant from time to time.
I know things have changed over time, but just how assertive are women in initiating courtship and/or seduction. Women flirt, but how many put the moves on men say in bars.
While there are some men who specifically target married women or those in committed relationships. It is much more common for those circumstances to be of no concern to the men. They don't go out of there, but it doesn't stop them either.
Semi-ironic music video aside... for someone who wants a monogamous relationship, that is the dream, though, isn't it?
I think that people should have open relationships if they want, and I'm well aware that a lot of men can't be monogamous (which is why I'm painstakingly selective about who I enter a relationship with) but for those men who can we want to believe that they don't have regrets about choosing us to be their sole source for sex. (Excluding porn/maturbation/etc) Just like we hope that we'll choose someone who we won't regret being our only source.
But that's me. I just want to be super clear about those two things though.
1. I'm not "against" open relationships, I just would never have one personally.
2. I'm not suggesting that one partner wanting an open relationship implies something negative about the other partner.
Good to hear - thanks!
I'm saying that any position you talk about with your partner should be discussed in a manner that's loving and respectful. Whether it's kids, In-Laws, finances or etc. A relationship should have understanding and compromise. And yeah, it's not an "open marriage" without that, it's a marital hostage situation.
"You can have an open marriage where the power partner has basically bullied or outrageously manipulated the weaker partner into accepting the state of affairs."
Then the weaker partner has much bigger issues than the fact that their SO is fooling around, because from that discription they're married to a controlling, emotionally abusive asshole and should really be rethinking their commitment to that person entirely.
What if you had said "no" and stayed in the relationship? Would he just be "kinda bummed", "totally dissatisfied but willing to stick it out", or would he have left? When you say "it turned out I can't have that", what do you mean, "can't"? Why can't you?
Brilliant DS, absolutely brilliant!
There's no objective standard for how much sex is "reasonable" in a relationship. If someone thinks four times a day is not enough, they have every right to say that the relationship is not working for them, and they need things to change, or else they don't want to stay in the relationship. Ending the relationship is always an option, as messy and painful as it may be.
As far as cheating goes, it's never "justified," but it may be the best of bad options. The measure here is not the frequency of sex, but how satisfied the people are, and how much of a problem it would be to just be honest and end the relationship. If a person is very unsatisfied with sex less than five times a day, and can't or won't handle it, then it's "unreasonable" for their partner to expect them to stay faithful or stay in the relationship when they have less sex.
The standard depends on the person in question. There's no one-size-fits-all rule like "sex less than once a month is unreasonable and grounds for cheating or breaking up."
You'll find lots of people to agree that there is a *right* to feel deprived. The problem is that being deprived leads to harm that isn't recognized except in a sort of informal way (oh, too bad!). It's not viewed clinically despite it literally driving people nuts. You'll know it's taken seriously when it merits a diagnosis from a doctor.
Your husband likely doesn't want love outside your marriage. He wants sex outside your marriage. The last person you leave is the wife who is happy to let you have some sex outside your marriage.
Mr J @129 - [Yes, there's nothing stopping you from doing that. But what will that get you? Will the threatened partner be happy after relenting? Will you have a healthy marriage? Can you be happy if your spouse is profoundly unhappy?]
It's quite possible that in most of the marriages I've seen happiness is a zero-sum commodity. Possibly not healthy, but the only sort of marriage the participants would be able to manage. Transplant one into a healthy marriage and it would be ruined in less than a year. Very Strindberg, I think.
How many years into the marriage was it when your husband wanted the other woman (women)? Did you negotiate how much freedom he could have? Was it part of the deal that you could have others, too? Is he open about how often he is with the others?
Dan, your advice was great. Assuming that the letter is real (reads that way to me), and that Dad's as straight an arrow as the letter writer, then talking to either of them about the details would be a disaster on wheels.
One exception would be if your little bro brought it up himself, or if you find out that mom or dad has made it an issue with him. In that case, your role would be to say something like, "I'm straight, but without going into the specifics I can tell you that I had some pretty wild sexual obsessions when I was 14. The only difference is no one ever found out about 'em."
But you only uncork that line is you have to. Otherwise, mum's the word other than advising him to do a better job hiding the porn. If he asks what you saw, say something, "It looked like pictures of guys, but once I figured out it was porn I really didn't spend much time with it."
Let him take the lead. Say as little as possible, but if he wants to talk don't be squeamish. He already feels like enough of a perv.
Not only "can" I have others, he reminds me to go out and sleep with other guys if it has been a while. He wants all the details. We both like to talk about our outside sex in bed -- it's really hot.
The big deal this summer is that now he has a girlfriend too. So, @151 - I hope you're right, but there are no guarantees.
I wonder if EricaP has thought about what she would do if hubby brought home a screaming case of herpes? Cancer-causing genital warts? Or howzabout a roaring case of antibiotic-resistant gonorrhea...I remember reading about women with "grapefruit-sized abcesses" in their fallopian tubes, from gonorrhea their cheatin' hubbies brought home to them! Or, syphilis? An oldie but a goodie! Lots and lots of little goodies out there just waiting to be caught and spread around!
We've talked about all the STDs and pregnancy issues. We get tested every six months. I'm on the pill and we use condoms religiously. (Even at home, sometimes, so I can verify that he's able to perform with them on.) But I mean, really, driving home is more likely to kill him, and what are you going to do, stay home the rest of your life? I'm secretly looking forward to getting herpes -- there's a cute boy I can't have sex with unless I get herpes, because he already has it and volunteered the info right after we kissed.
Don't you know that no matter what precautions you take, a wrathful God will surely smite you for being an adulteress? Double lightning bolts and abscesses for "letting hubby chase around" - although if it were my decision, anyone who uses the word "hubby" or buys into the concept of "letting" another adult do anything would move right up to the front of the smiting queue.
Also, and I only ask after lurking for months - is Hunter an ex of yours? Is there a backstory here? None of my business, of course, and feel free to ignore the question.
A lot of posters like hypotheticals, so I posted the above in the same spirit. Trite BS maybe, but true none the less.
@163 - I don't know him aside from Slog. He started things off last summer by asking if I was fat, and followed that up by suggesting that I had a prolapsed vagina. I think both were odd attempts to justify my husband's desire to sleep with other women. Now it has become a game to him.
If you had your way, would you prefer a completely monogamous relationship with your hubby? Are you just doing this for him, or have you started to enjoy the open concept on it's own merits? Are you in an explicit D/s relationship, or are you just naturally submissive, and that's the way the power structure has settled?
Your life should be a book "One Woman's Life: Living with Infidelity." I hope you are saving all your posts. You write so well and I seriously think it could be a best seller. Or else, a self-help book "Surviving Infidelity."
(Sorry Hunter. Suck it up.)
Well, you sound like a doormat rather than a partner. Take that as you will, but it does not sound to me as if he really had your feelings at heart, because it is clear you would rather have 100% monogamy.
The betrayal was pretty devastating at the time and I wasn't very fond of him or her. Cheaters are shitty people. Period. No matter who you are in the cheating relationship. The other woman/man or the one in the marriage. Shitty. the both of you.
On the other hand, don't have any issue with open relationships---if everyone has agreed to it, I can certainly see how it could work just fine.
As for safer practices I suspect that if a person isn't having multiple sex partners on the sly, sex practices might be safer because no one is in denial about what they are doing. Cheaters can compartmentalize their adventures and compromise their health and that of the unsuspecting partner--and adding to the victimization. Soccer mom might be giving more to her married lovers than she realizes. Besides who knows how many others the married lovers boink as well?
Although this does point out the necessity of Savage Love. I mean, who else was that dude going to tell about this particular problem?
jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…
And, I totally agree with @174, AR. "Honey, I'd like to discuss opening our marriage up" is totally different than "Honey, I'm going to have sex with other women, whether you like it or not. You can totally have sex with other people too! Take it or leave." That's not a discussion about changing the parameters of a marriage; that's a unilateral announcement that one spouse is changing the parameters of the marriage. But hey, the guy doesn't look at kiddie porn, so he's a prince!
@174 – yes, we're both shits. Good thing we love each other; no one else would put up with us for two minutes.
Kind words @172, yes, but don't you want to correct "infidelity?"
Has it occurred to you that maybe she doesn't have her feelings at heart in the way that you would with your own?
I thought Dan Savage should know that these people are threatening his life and the lives and rights of gay couples all over the world.
http://wp.me/pDfsx-1oD
The FB "friend" is NOAH DAVID SIMON - I'm trying to get his and his friends off FACEBOOK - help me - we don't have the need for more religious haters in the world especially on the internet. Faceless cowards who hate.
@191: Do you mean that it's not as important to her as it would be to someone else?
Re: @191 I simply saw a presumption on AR's part. I am not speaking for EricaP. However, different people obviously have different feelings. Why assume that everyone's "at heart" is the same?
AR@174 thought Mr. P wasn't being considerate, and I should stand up for myself. The D/s makes that hard for others to understand. I like shaping my life to Mr P's needs, even when I don't enjoy the immediate experience.
@Fans & Haters, Sorry, I'm not taking this show to a blog or book. Posting here is therapy for me, and something I hope to outgrow.
I really do hope that you find a way to be inside your marriage that works for you, and i realize that from time to time the comments will veer from their original course. I also know that occasionally people's own stories are warranted or make their way in here (it's happened to me a few times).
But this blog doesn't exist to serve the purpose you're using it for and you are dragging a lot of people--some reluctantly--along with you as you hash through your marital issues. It isn't fair.
First of all, kudos on your desire for a situation with more integrity and a confirmation that there ARE situations like that easily available if you spend the time to look.
However, I would like to comment on your feeling that your body needs a fully functioning and capable man. I am not sure of your definition of such, but as a man who struggled with ED and its accompanying relationship issues for many years (pills resulting in strange vision, suction devices [really?], cock rings and small sections of rope, injections [wow, NOT the way to go] and finally the long term and immensely satisfying solution of a penile implant) I can say that, probably unless your husband dated Lorena Bobbitt, there is a solution available to him. Whether or not that will restore a monogamous relationship, or even if you would wish for that, I do not know.
The Eroticist
I'd certainly like /ignore functionality, but I wouldn't use it for Erica.
@201: As far as what Dan wants, that's almost beside the point where this issue is concerned. I'm not trying to speak for anyone else but myself, but *I* didn't realize that the point of the Stranger's blog was to give unhappy people a forum for discussing their marital issues. If someone wants therapy, she should go to a therapist; if she wants to express herself or write about her own experiences almost exclusively, she can start her own blog.
Nocutename wrote "*I* didn't realize that the point of the Stranger's blog was to give unhappy people a forum for discussing their marital issues."
I believe the whole f___ing point of Dan Savage's column is to help people (both single and married, straight and gay) with their sexual problems so it's perfectly appropriate for unhappy married people to discuss their problems here. But you must be confusing Erica with somebody else, because she doesn't sound unhappy and she isn't discussing her marital problems but rather her *solutions.*
Erica P., if you ever decide to write a book, I'd love to read your story!
Clearly the majority of readers are delighted to read Erica.
@204, I'm clearly with you. And if "Life's not fair. Welcome to the internet" then I never, ever want to hear EricaP's fawning fans get angry with Hunter78 again. He's a bully? Too bad; life's not fair.
Why did you tame down the EricaP Marital Sex History Hour right after Dan asked you to email him, anyway, EricaP? Right after that comment thread, all your comment posts were, zOMG, actually about the column! Why is that?
Dan keeps posting about non-monogamous marriages. I'm discussing my non-monogamous marriage. Am I bringing in my issues with my children, or my parents, or my writing, or anything except my non-monogamous marriage? Am I wasting posts on Hunter or other meta-issues? As little as possible. But once you allege that I was slapped down by Dan -- I can't let that stand.
@203: if you read enough of it, Erica doesn't sound happy at all, but rather desperate and willing to do anything to keep her extremely self centered husband.
So, Erica, have you ever said whether you are indeed fat? And what about the uterus? Prolapsed or not? Inquirin' minds want to know!
Get a life, lady. You need to step away from the computer. And I say that as someone who spends a LOT of time in front of an LCD.